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343 Frustrates Me

OP LITTLE TE

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The decision to not bring back dual wielding and playable elites, and Quinn's reasoning for them, all point to the same problem that myself and others have had with this company ever since the infamous "Trust Us" line from the Halo 4 multiplayer reveal trailer when they gave their reasonings for fundamentally changing Halo. It seems like 343 has always had the intention to make the Halo game that THEY want to play instead of what the majority of the fans want and keeping Halo, well, Halo. Infinite is supposed to be the game that brings the community back and be the system seller for Xbox Holiday 2021, but with each bit of information that they reveal I get a great sense that we are headed to the same ending as 343's previous installments. Man I hope I'm wrong.
At this point, you cant make the argument that the majority of the halo fan base wants to play the same thing. You could make that argument with 4, not with infinite (given there are tons of fans of the gameplay of 5)
LITTLE TE wrote:
The decision to not bring back dual wielding and playable elites, and Quinn's reasoning for them, all point to the same problem that myself and others have had with this company ever since the infamous "Trust Us" line from the Halo 4 multiplayer reveal trailer when they gave their reasonings for fundamentally changing Halo. It seems like 343 has always had the intention to make the Halo game that THEY want to play instead of what the majority of the fans want and keeping Halo, well, Halo. Infinite is supposed to be the game that brings the community back and be the system seller for Xbox Holiday 2021, but with each bit of information that they reveal I get a great sense that we are headed to the same ending as 343's previous installments. Man I hope I'm wrong.
I feel ya.

I will say this; the publishing team and their partners are currently doing a very, very good job with MCC and are actually listening a lot. So that and Staten being back gives me hope. If they don't listen to the fans who understand Halo watch this game's population plummet.
LITTLE TE wrote:
The decision to not bring back dual wielding and playable elites, and Quinn's reasoning for them, all point to the same problem that myself and others have had with this company ever since the infamous "Trust Us" line from the Halo 4 multiplayer reveal trailer when they gave their reasonings for fundamentally changing Halo. It seems like 343 has always had the intention to make the Halo game that THEY want to play instead of what the majority of the fans want and keeping Halo, well, Halo. Infinite is supposed to be the game that brings the community back and be the system seller for Xbox Holiday 2021, but with each bit of information that they reveal I get a great sense that we are headed to the same ending as 343's previous installments. Man I hope I'm wrong.
I feel ya.

I will say this; the publishing team and their partners are currently doing a very, very good job with MCC and are actually listening a lot. So that and Staten being back gives me hope. If they don't listen to the fans who understand Halo watch this game's population plummet.
whats your qualifications for "understanding halo"? To be clear, agreeing with ones own preferences =/= understanding of something. Everyone has a different view of what makes halo, well, halo. So there are no "experts"
At this point, you cant make the argument that the majority of the halo fan base wants to play the same thing. You could make that argument with 4, not with infinite (given there are tons of fans of the gameplay of 5)
Wanting to play the same thing or not wanting to play the same thing, is no excuse to not feature playable Elites (harmless cosmetics) or not feature Dual Wielding in campaign/customs (harmless non-competitive modes).
I think there are groups of Halo players that prefer different Halo game types and from what I have seen it is mostly divided into 3 groups that are approximately the same size. CE gameplay preferred, H3 preferred, and Reach/H4. The biggest determining factor being at what point the player started playing Halo a significant amount.
Ascend Hyperion on YouTube actually researched this and what he said makes a lot of sense. This makes it impossible for there to be 1 singular path for 343 to make a game that people who previously loved a Halo game to all enjoy the next Halo game.
At this point, you cant make the argument that the majority of the halo fan base wants to play the same thing. You could make that argument with 4, not with infinite (given there are tons of fans of the gameplay of 5)
Thank you. It’s not even so much that most of the Halo community is on H5, it’s that Infinite is free to play. And 343 stated that new players can play the game with no previous knowledge. No ones going to understand the “lore” behind elites and Spartans playing together. It’s not that I hate Elites in game, I could care less if they bring them in or not, it’s just the communities response which is a little overbearing if you ask me. If you’re one of those people, give me all the backlash you have, that’s why the community can be so toxic.
At this point, you cant make the argument that the majority of the halo fan base wants to play the same thing. You could make that argument with 4, not with infinite (given there are tons of fans of the gameplay of 5)
Wanting to play the same thing or not wanting to play the same thing, is no excuse to not feature playable Elites (harmless cosmetics) or not feature Dual Wielding in campaign/customs (harmless non-competitive modes).
this ignores a lot of things outside the game itself.
1. We don't know what data they have that would say either implementation is or is not worth the effort (no a forum thread does not compete with actual use numbers)
2. we don't know what they have tried and decided to scrap (example per the vid, would be weapon customization/upgrade)
3. Harmless cosmetics is actually more than that given their effect not only on hitbox and weapon balances but also the development of new UI, new animations (given elites are not the same as a spartan), a comparable cosmetic system, and the integration of those with their progression plans. There are more but you get my point. Its never just "harmless cosmetics" when it comes to new models

My overall point though with my comment is none of us case say the majority of Halo fans or players wants A, B or C. Why? Cause halo fans exist both during the bungie era and the post bungie era. There is no majority interest. Its a melting pot of interests where the only shared opinion in mass is that we like halo.
At this point, you cant make the argument that the majority of the halo fan base wants to play the same thing. You could make that argument with 4, not with infinite (given there are tons of fans of the gameplay of 5)
Thank you. It’s not even so much that most of the Halo community is on H5, it’s that Infinite is free to play. And 343 stated that new players can play the game with no previous knowledge. No ones going to understand the “lore” behind elites and Spartans playing together.
What's more confusing than Elites and Spartans working together, is going from Halo 5 with allied Elites to Halo Infinite's dumbed down story of all aliens being bad guys. Halo Online was free to play for Russian newcomers and the explanation of Spartans and Elites allied on the Anvil is pretty easy to understand.
It’s not that I hate Elites in game, I could care less if they bring them in or not, it’s just the communities response which is a little overbearing if you ask me. If you’re one of those people, give me all the backlash you have, that’s why the community can be so toxic.
Lots of criticism =/= being toxic. Being toxic would be throwing rude insults around.
LITTLE TE wrote:
The decision to not bring back dual wielding and playable elites, and Quinn's reasoning for them, all point to the same problem that myself and others have had with this company ever since the infamous "Trust Us" line from the Halo 4 multiplayer reveal trailer when they gave their reasonings for fundamentally changing Halo. It seems like 343 has always had the intention to make the Halo game that THEY want to play instead of what the majority of the fans want and keeping Halo, well, Halo. Infinite is supposed to be the game that brings the community back and be the system seller for Xbox Holiday 2021, but with each bit of information that they reveal I get a great sense that we are headed to the same ending as 343's previous installments. Man I hope I'm wrong.
I feel ya.

I will say this; the publishing team and their partners are currently doing a very, very good job with MCC and are actually listening a lot. So that and Staten being back gives me hope. If they don't listen to the fans who understand Halo watch this game's population plummet.
whats your qualifications for "understanding halo"? To be clear, agreeing with ones own preferences =/= understanding of something. Everyone has a different view of what makes halo, well, halo. So there are no "experts"
Try to imagine a beautiful lasagna beloved for years and years made in a special unique way that's better quality than the sea of mediocrity its competitors produce. This lasagna matters it has soul. It's brought people together.

Now imagine a soulless conglomerate takes over and changes the recipe, severely. It doesn't taste as good and it's no longer relevant. It's bland, uninspired and desperately chases the trends of competitors it should be dominating - but it has its own fans that its brought together.

This too will pass. Everything ends we are all going to die eventually the universe will be so empty not even blackholes remain. In the meantime, please don't -Yoink- on my head and tell me it's rain. If you're a fan of Halo 4 & 5 then at least have the decency to admit it's its own less successful less good thing, that you personally prefer.
LITTLE TE wrote:
The decision to not bring back dual wielding and playable elites, and Quinn's reasoning for them, all point to the same problem that myself and others have had with this company ever since the infamous "Trust Us" line from the Halo 4 multiplayer reveal trailer when they gave their reasonings for fundamentally changing Halo. It seems like 343 has always had the intention to make the Halo game that THEY want to play instead of what the majority of the fans want and keeping Halo, well, Halo. Infinite is supposed to be the game that brings the community back and be the system seller for Xbox Holiday 2021, but with each bit of information that they reveal I get a great sense that we are headed to the same ending as 343's previous installments. Man I hope I'm wrong.
I feel ya.

I will say this; the publishing team and their partners are currently doing a very, very good job with MCC and are actually listening a lot. So that and Staten being back gives me hope. If they don't listen to the fans who understand Halo watch this game's population plummet.
whats your qualifications for "understanding halo"? To be clear, agreeing with ones own preferences =/= understanding of something. Everyone has a different view of what makes halo, well, halo. So there are no "experts"
Try to imagine a beautiful lasagna beloved for years and years made in a special unique way that's better quality than the sea of mediocrity its competitors produce. This lasagna matters it has soul. It's brought people together.

Now imagine a soulless conglomerate takes over and changes the recipe, severely. It doesn't taste as good and it's no longer relevant. It's bland, uninspired and desperately chases the trends of competitors it should be dominating - but it has its own fans that its brought together.

This too will pass. Everything ends we are all going to die eventually the universe will be so empty not even blackholes remain. In the meantime, please don't -Yoink- on my head and tell me it's rain. If you're a fan of Halo 4 & 5 then at least have the decency to admit it's its own less successful less good thing, that you personally prefer.
None of this answers my question and simply shows your aggressive bias (being bias is fine, but being condescending like that really hurts your point)

Side note, your lasagna comparison doesn't really work as it's loaded with false equivalencies. Good try though
this ignores a lot of things outside the game itself.
1. We don't know what data they have that would say either implementation is or is not worth the effort (no a forum thread does not compete with actual use numbers)
2. we don't know what they have tried and decided to scrap (example per the vid, would be weapon customization/upgrade)
These could be fair reasons, but the reason given for lack of multiplayer Elites was because the story is "a Master Chief and Spartan story" even though the lore makes it clear Spartans and Elites are allies that train in multiplayer simulations together. Even with your reasons 1 and 2 which are fair, that doesn't mean there's no solutions. They could be solved post-launch as they continue to add content to the game.

3. Harmless cosmetics is actually more than that given their effect not only on hitbox and weapon balances but also the development of new UI, new animations (given elites are not the same as a spartan), a comparable cosmetic system, and the integration of those with their progression plans. There are more but you get my point. Its never just "harmless cosmetics" when it comes to new models
While your first two reasons are fair, this one is setting a very low bar considering they were able to pull this off with technology and resources from 2004 and 2007. 343 Industries is a competent developer studio, surely they deserve better expectations. In fact, they should have even more time to implement these things post launch given that they'll be adding new content same game for 10 years unlike in 2004 when they pulled it off in a tight 2-3 year dev cycle.

My overall point though with my comment is none of us case say the majority of Halo fans or players wants A, B or C. Why? Cause halo fans exist both during the bungie era and the post bungie era. There is no majority interest. Its a melting pot of interests where the only shared opinion in mass is that we like halo.
That would imply people from the post-bungie era explicitly don't want bungie era elements in the new games. It doesn't need to be framed as a contest of "bungie fans vs 343 fans" when both can be treated. Dual Wielding restricted to campaign (even as a skull if it's that hard to balance) and custom games keeps those fans happy, and other fans are unoffended by it and can try it out if curious. Elites in multiplayer keep those fans happy, and other fans are unoffended by it and can try it out if curious. It doesn't have to be a trade off, it can be an additonal option.
At this point, you cant make the argument that the majority of the halo fan base wants to play the same thing. You could make that argument with 4, not with infinite (given there are tons of fans of the gameplay of 5)
Thank you. It’s not even so much that most of the Halo community is on H5, it’s that Infinite is free to play. And 343 stated that new players can play the game with no previous knowledge. No ones going to understand the “lore” behind elites and Spartans playing together. It’s not that I hate Elites in game, I could care less if they bring them in or not, it’s just the communities response which is a little overbearing if you ask me. If you’re one of those people, give me all the backlash you have, that’s why the community can be so toxic.
Except most multiplayer games barely have lore, if any at all. Having elites as an option isn't going to make people's heads explode, just as it didn't for people who skipped the campaign and jumped into 2/3/Reach's multiplayer.

I'm sorry but you're insulting the intelligence of your average gamer. No one's going to have a problem getting into halo just because they don't know why a game has options.

By that logic they should just reduced all MP armor to Chief's. Since new players won't even know what a spartan is, given that the only game to really care to explain them was 4.
It's hard to tell if the lack of features is because "we don't have the technological know how/we don't have that much time" or it's because "we don't want to".

Dual wielding and playable Elites being absent feel like they fall under the latter category.

To say that it would take too much time to implement either, please remember that Bungie in their Halo 2 development struggled to get the game overall to a playable state and reportedly had terrible source code that was extremely volatile yet they still managed to make it work within months of release.

And they managed to make it all work online.

You will be hard pressed to convince people that there's is somewhat of a justifiable reason why these two features are missing other than what people already said.
We're just so divided now. 343 has to pick a side though, that's the nature of the beast.

Is anyone wrong for their opinions here? No. if anyone says you are wrong, they're the wrong ones. There is no one way to make a video game and only the intitled and narcissists believe otherwise.

Both sides have their arguments and would probably make amazing games, but 343 can't make both sides happy. Unfortunately for the casual fans and those who just want to chill and have fun, 343 has put us aside to aim for the E-sports community. They've made it clear that they are more important given the heavy investment they can give to their company.

Is that fair to us? Not really, but that's because we came to Halo from the opposite side. I played Halo when everyone just had fun. Things were added because they were cool. The 'rule of cool' as they called it. Was it super balanced? Not at all. But it was awesome and numbingly fun.

Also, I'm not at all advocating ignoring comp all together mind you. I'm just saying that there are others of us who do not play competitive and really aren't intrested in doing so. Regardless of the privilege they have gained over 343's run with Halo, I still don't feel comfortable in that environment.

So what do we do about this? Is there an answer to make us all happy? Probably not. That's what 343 realized and they went for whatever is going to make more money.
Same. I was super excited for Halo Infinite when we were told it was going to be a spiritual reboot but the more I hear about the final product the more I feel like I'm going to be disappointed. It doesn't feel like 343 is making Halo Infinite for Halo fans.
Dual wielding was never anything more than a gimmick. I am fine with it not being in. No playable elites I am a little bit bummed about, but I was never an elite guy so it doesn't bother me. I know that there are people who love to play as elites and I feel for them, but at the same time the last time we were able to play as an elite was 11 years ago and even that was only in certain gamemodes. I understand the decision.
Same. I was super excited for Halo Infinite when we were told it was going to be a spiritual reboot but the more I hear about the final product the more I feel like I'm going to be disappointed. It doesn't feel like 343 is making Halo Infinite for Halo fans.
Not sure how "rebooting" the game to feel more like Halo CE - Halo 3 is not listening to Halo fans. Halo Reach and Halo 4 pushed a lot of people away because of the gameplay mechanic changes.
Isn’t infinite supposed to have like years of content after it launches? There’s still hope, man. I’m not giving up tbh. We can still very well have good things in the future. I’m hoping they end up adding playable elites eventually. Wasn’t looking forward to dual wielding though. I just want Spartan Vs Elite game types like Invasion.
Danumis wrote:
Same. I was super excited for Halo Infinite when we were told it was going to be a spiritual reboot but the more I hear about the final product the more I feel like I'm going to be disappointed. It doesn't feel like 343 is making Halo Infinite for Halo fans.
Not sure how "rebooting" the game to feel more like Halo CE - Halo 3 is not listening to Halo fans. Halo Reach and Halo 4 pushed a lot of people away because of the gameplay mechanic changes.
Because saying they're rebooting it is different than actually doing it.

How does sandbox changes, no dual-wielding, no playable elites, setting the whole game on the same map, grappeling hook, etc actually represent listening to halo fans? All they did was give us an old art style and did the sane thing and realize halo 5's story was bad.
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