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Aim Assist could kill Infinite in the long run

OP KenaiPhoenix

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A little bit of context: I have been playing Halo: MCC since launch on Xbox One. I got a quite average-good, nothing out of the extraordinary but i could carry a couple of matches. Then i move to PC so I stopped palying on Xbox. I was very happy when they decided to launch MCC on PC, and since the release in PC I played regulary (work and other stuff always get in the way... but thats life)

My problem is that since I get back to Halo on PC I always get destroyed. If it is not snipers or Swat Im always in the botton of the leaderboard. I was aware of the aim assist debate but I always think "It is not that terrible... MW has crossplay with MnK and Controllers and it is not that bad". Until yesterday I plug my old Xbox One controller and ohhhhh boy... thats a lot of help (Halo 3).

I get it, they cant change it in MCC because that will mess with how Halo 3 is played. They added Input based Matchmaking (even if i cant use it because it seems like no one plays with MnK) so Im not complaining about MCC... Im worried about Infinite (another reason to be worried): if they dont scale down the assist they could kill the competitiviness of the game and the PC community very quick.
A little bit of context: I have been playing Halo: MCC since launch on Xbox One. I got a quite average-good, nothing out of the extraordinary but i could carry a couple of matches. Then i move to PC so I stopped palying on Xbox. I was very happy when they decided to launch MCC on PC, and since the release in PC I played regulary (work and other stuff always get in the way... but thats life)

My problem is that since I get back to Halo on PC I always get destroyed. If it is not snipers or Swat Im always in the botton of the leaderboard. I was aware of the aim assist debate but I always think "It is not that terrible... MW has crossplay with MnK and Controllers and it is not that bad". Until yesterday I plug my old Xbox One controller and ohhhhh boy... thats a lot of help (Halo 3).

I get it, they cant change it in MCC because that will mess with how Halo 3 is played. They added Input based Matchmaking (even if i cant use it because it seems like no one plays with MnK) so Im not complaining about MCC... Im worried about Infinite (another reason to be worried): if they dont scale down the assist they could kill the competitiviness of the game and the PC community very quick.
What do you you think will fix this issue? Whether you go less aim assist on controller which helps m&k, or go more aim assist for mouse which sounds overpowered.
C0RRuPTT wrote:
A little bit of context: I have been playing Halo: MCC since launch on Xbox One. I got a quite average-good, nothing out of the extraordinary but i could carry a couple of matches. Then i move to PC so I stopped palying on Xbox. I was very happy when they decided to launch MCC on PC, and since the release in PC I played regulary (work and other stuff always get in the way... but thats life)

My problem is that since I get back to Halo on PC I always get destroyed. If it is not snipers or Swat Im always in the botton of the leaderboard. I was aware of the aim assist debate but I always think "It is not that terrible... MW has crossplay with MnK and Controllers and it is not that bad". Until yesterday I plug my old Xbox One controller and ohhhhh boy... thats a lot of help (Halo 3).

I get it, they cant change it in MCC because that will mess with how Halo 3 is played. They added Input based Matchmaking (even if i cant use it because it seems like no one plays with MnK) so Im not complaining about MCC... Im worried about Infinite (another reason to be worried): if they dont scale down the assist they could kill the competitiviness of the game and the PC community very quick.
What do you you think will fix this issue? Whether you go less aim assist on controller which helps m&k, or go more aim assist for mouse which sounds overpowered.
As I said in my post: "scale down" the aim assist. Call Of Duty Modern Warfare manage to dont let this be a big problem (different TTK but my point stands). If you play the game on PC make the experiment: play with MnK and then switch to Controller. There is a difference in help (or assist wink wink) and just do stuff for the player.

If they dont balance this there are gonna be problems. I really doubt that the xbox community can sustain this game in the long run. And if you consider the "10 year plan" for Infinite you need more platforms and balance them right, or one of them will just not play (and Halo is no longer a huge trademark game that no one want to miss, it is sad but it is true).
Hopefully they set up a system that can be subtly tweaked from their end.

Then you have two large populations - one for controllers and one for mouse/kb. You can compare the skill / rank curves for these populations and slowly tweak the settings so that they eventually match.

Problem solved.
Seems pretty balanced to me. MnK still gets the full benefits from bullet magnetism, it's just reticle stickiness controllers get MnK doesn't which is pretty much required on controller and would greatly overpower mouse.

I've only ever felt the advantage leaning towards MnK, specifically for snipers, swat, and heavy vehicles. But for general gunplay it feels pretty good either way.
I think it's fine. Controller gets reticle stickiness and M&k gets to be a helicopter.
I'm hoping because Infinite is actually being made with PC in mind it will feel more balanced. Would suck to see a mainline Halo finally launch day and date on PC with console only to find out you basically have to use a controller to enjoy it unless you're Shroud level.
Darwi wrote:
Hopefully they set up a system that can be subtly tweaked from their end.

Then you have two large populations - one for controllers and one for mouse/kb. You can compare the skill / rank curves for these populations and slowly tweak the settings so that they eventually match.

Problem solved.
This, I think the issue will be solved over time. Maybe test some settings pre-release, then adjust as needed over time.
Are you suggesting they either remove controller aim assist or add it to MnK?
Not sure what you're thinking here but if you've ever played on controller with AA disabled, you'll immediately notice that it is not possible to hit shots. I'm not just saying it's difficult. It is 110% luck based to hit ANY shots on a moving target. No amount of skill will help you.
Meanwhile over on MnK, anyone with a right arm can 360 quickscope even the fastest targets, due to the precision and amount of control a mouse has.
Even if you were to give a controller player double aim assist, they'd still lose to an MnK player.
And there is no parallel reality, no alternate timeline, no bizzaro universe where controller will ever be better than MnK.
Just keep the two inputs out of the same playlist and it will be fine.
I'm of the belief that it should be input based matchmaking day 1 on ranked playlists. Since social and customs should just be for fun anyway it doesn't matter. I'd prefer if aim assist wasn't as strong as 5 too, but I guess that depends on how crazy the movement really is.
Every game with controllers that is a shooter has aim assist, it is necessary for controllers because you cannot get precise aim.
I hope 343 has a system that will work in Infinite because if they don't, any hope of the game being "competitive" is gone. Which is fine if that's the path they choose, however it's obvious that they want to grow Halo as an esport. If they don't want to tone down the amount of AA for controllers then they need to implement input based matchmaking so that players can choose to not play with the other input. Also the thing I've noticed with mcc pc is controller users will tell people on mnk to just "get better." Then when the mnk player actually shows they are better and can beat someone with an aimbot they complain about how broken mnk is.

For social games I don't care what they do or how people choose to play the game, I grew up on Xbox and controllers and see why some people could enjoy using them. I also spent most of my later teens-present on pc so I've used both inputs. The problem starts when you enter a competitive space, I'm sorry to burst the bubble of all the people who only play on Xbox but if you need an aimbot to help you remain viable vs other inputs than your input is fatally flawed.
Aquilapath wrote:
I hope 343 has a system that will work in Infinite because if they don't, any hope of the game being "competitive" is gone. Which is fine if that's the path they choose, however it's obvious that they want to grow Halo as an esport. If they don't want to tone down the amount of AA for controllers then they need to implement input based matchmaking so that players can choose to not play with the other input. Also the thing I've noticed with mcc pc is controller users will tell people on mnk to just "get better." Then when the mnk player actually shows they are better and can beat someone with an aimbot they complain about how broken mnk is.

For social games I don't care what they do or how people choose to play the game, I grew up on Xbox and controllers and see why some people could enjoy using them. I also spent most of my later teens-present on pc so I've used both inputs. The problem starts when you enter a competitive space, I'm sorry to burst the bubble of all the people who only play on Xbox but if you need an aimbot to help you remain viable vs other inputs than your input is fatally flawed.
you mean aim assist? it's not an aim bot and it's required for joysticks since they aren't as precise. The tradeoff being controller users have a much larger variance over aim and movement speed thanks to the full articulation of the sticks.
Aquilapath wrote:
I hope 343 has a system that will work in Infinite because if they don't, any hope of the game being "competitive" is gone. Which is fine if that's the path they choose, however it's obvious that they want to grow Halo as an esport. If they don't want to tone down the amount of AA for controllers then they need to implement input based matchmaking so that players can choose to not play with the other input. Also the thing I've noticed with mcc pc is controller users will tell people on mnk to just "get better." Then when the mnk player actually shows they are better and can beat someone with an aimbot they complain about how broken mnk is.

For social games I don't care what they do or how people choose to play the game, I grew up on Xbox and controllers and see why some people could enjoy using them. I also spent most of my later teens-present on pc so I've used both inputs. The problem starts when you enter a competitive space, I'm sorry to burst the bubble of all the people who only play on Xbox but if you need an aimbot to help you remain viable vs other inputs than your input is fatally flawed.
you mean aim assist? it's not an aim bot and it's required for joysticks since they aren't as precise. The tradeoff being controller users have a much larger variance over aim and movement speed thanks to the full articulation of the sticks.
Again in a game where you need to be precise, so any fps game where you need to aim at something using an input that requires assistance from the game to compensate for the lack of precision makes zero sense in a competitive environment.
A little bit of context: I have been playing Halo: MCC since launch on Xbox One. I got a quite average-good, nothing out of the extraordinary but i could carry a couple of matches. Then i move to PC so I stopped palying on Xbox. I was very happy when they decided to launch MCC on PC, and since the release in PC I played regulary (work and other stuff always get in the way... but thats life)

My problem is that since I get back to Halo on PC I always get destroyed. If it is not snipers or Swat Im always in the botton of the leaderboard. I was aware of the aim assist debate but I always think "It is not that terrible... MW has crossplay with MnK and Controllers and it is not that bad". Until yesterday I plug my old Xbox One controller and ohhhhh boy... thats a lot of help (Halo 3).

I get it, they cant change it in MCC because that will mess with how Halo 3 is played. They added Input based Matchmaking (even if i cant use it because it seems like no one plays with MnK) so Im not complaining about MCC... Im worried about Infinite (another reason to be worried): if they dont scale down the assist they could kill the competitiviness of the game and the PC community very quick.
I think that there is no easy solution for if you want mouse and keyboard and controller players together in one lobby for multiplayer, If they add too much aim assist to controllers then mouse and keyboard players will say that console players basically get auto aim (which is a complaint I have heard from some people while playing Modern Warfare). If they add aim assist to MnK then controller players will be at a huge disadvantage as well.

I do think that Modern Warfare and Black Ops Cold War can get away with mixing players of different platforms and different input devices because inherently the time to kill of Call of Duty is so much shorter than Halo. In my opinion that means that controllers can get away with a little help from the system to aim while Mouse and Keyboard players will still be able to overcome the help of aim assist as long as they can stay on target for more than a quarter second or so. In Halo I feel you often have to stay on target for at least a second or more to get a single kill (at least in my case cause my aim is pretty bad lol) which means that a Mouse and Keyboard player needs to stay more precise without any help from aim assist for longer. Granted depending how strong aim assist is and the caliber of player, a controller user would also need to stay on target for just as long and MnK could very well have an advantage anyway.

TLDR: I think the longer time to kill of Halo means that aim assist can have more of an impact on the game than it does in another shooter such as Call of Duty. That being said, I do think that Halo Infinite does need aim assist on controller or the game will just not feel very good on console and that will turn away a lot of the console player base.
Aquilapath wrote:
Aquilapath wrote:
I hope 343 has a system that will work in Infinite because if they don't, any hope of the game being "competitive" is gone. Which is fine if that's the path they choose, however it's obvious that they want to grow Halo as an esport. If they don't want to tone down the amount of AA for controllers then they need to implement input based matchmaking so that players can choose to not play with the other input. Also the thing I've noticed with mcc pc is controller users will tell people on mnk to just "get better." Then when the mnk player actually shows they are better and can beat someone with an aimbot they complain about how broken mnk is.

For social games I don't care what they do or how people choose to play the game, I grew up on Xbox and controllers and see why some people could enjoy using them. I also spent most of my later teens-present on pc so I've used both inputs. The problem starts when you enter a competitive space, I'm sorry to burst the bubble of all the people who only play on Xbox but if you need an aimbot to help you remain viable vs other inputs than your input is fatally flawed.
you mean aim assist? it's not an aim bot and it's required for joysticks since they aren't as precise. The tradeoff being controller users have a much larger variance over aim and movement speed thanks to the full articulation of the sticks.
Again in a game where you need to be precise, so any fps game where you need to aim at something using an input that requires assistance from the game to compensate for the lack of precision makes zero sense in a competitive environment.
MLG Back in Halo 2 and 3 would disagree, your point has no grounds to stand on
Fos Kuvol wrote:
Seems pretty balanced to me. MnK still gets the full benefits from bullet magnetism, it's just reticle stickiness controllers get MnK doesn't which is pretty much required on controller and would greatly overpower mouse.

I've only ever felt the advantage leaning towards MnK, specifically for snipers, swat, and heavy vehicles. But for general gunplay it feels pretty good either way.
I insist make the experiment: play Halo 3 with assist On and then with Mouse and keyboard, the game is almost aiming for you. Some times I didnt even realize there was an enemy until my camera start to lock on.

C0BALT237 wrote:
Are you suggesting they either remove controller aim assist or add it to MnK?
Not sure what you're thinking here but if you've ever played on controller with AA disabled, you'll immediately notice that it is not possible to hit shots. I'm not just saying it's difficult. It is 110% luck based to hit ANY shots on a moving target. No amount of skill will help you.
Meanwhile over on MnK, anyone with a right arm can 360 quickscope even the fastest targets, due to the precision and amount of control a mouse has.
Even if you were to give a controller player double aim assist, they'd still lose to an MnK player.
And there is no parallel reality, no alternate timeline, no bizzaro universe where controller will ever be better than MnK.
Just keep the two inputs out of the same playlist and it will be fine.
No. As I said on my post just turn it down. I know it is impossible for control users to keep up with MnK without assist, but there is a difference between help the player and do stuff for him. Your point about "doubling the AA" is not valid either: there where (and is) a lot of complain about MnK users about all the help that control players gets. To test this you just need to play a couple of matches and see that everytime (unless you are playing Swat variants) MnK users will be on the botton of the leaderboard. I believe that one of the reasons why MCC is not more popular on PC (besides being an old game) is this asimetric game that MnK palyer cant beat

A little bit of context: I have been playing Halo: MCC since launch on Xbox One. I got a quite average-good, nothing out of the extraordinary but i could carry a couple of matches. Then i move to PC so I stopped palying on Xbox. I was very happy when they decided to launch MCC on PC, and since the release in PC I played regulary (work and other stuff always get in the way... but thats life)

My problem is that since I get back to Halo on PC I always get destroyed. If it is not snipers or Swat Im always in the botton of the leaderboard. I was aware of the aim assist debate but I always think "It is not that terrible... MW has crossplay with MnK and Controllers and it is not that bad". Until yesterday I plug my old Xbox One controller and ohhhhh boy... thats a lot of help (Halo 3).

I get it, they cant change it in MCC because that will mess with how Halo 3 is played. They added Input based Matchmaking (even if i cant use it because it seems like no one plays with MnK) so Im not complaining about MCC... Im worried about Infinite (another reason to be worried): if they dont scale down the assist they could kill the competitiviness of the game and the PC community very quick.
I think that there is no easy solution for if you want mouse and keyboard and controller players together in one lobby for multiplayer, If they add too much aim assist to controllers then mouse and keyboard players will say that console players basically get auto aim (which is a complaint I have heard from some people while playing Modern Warfare). If they add aim assist to MnK then controller players will be at a huge disadvantage as well.

I do think that Modern Warfare and Black Ops Cold War can get away with mixing players of different platforms and different input devices because inherently the time to kill of Call of Duty is so much shorter than Halo. In my opinion that means that controllers can get away with a little help from the system to aim while Mouse and Keyboard players will still be able to overcome the help of aim assist as long as they can stay on target for more than a quarter second or so. In Halo I feel you often have to stay on target for at least a second or more to get a single kill (at least in my case cause my aim is pretty bad lol) which means that a Mouse and Keyboard player needs to stay more precise without any help from aim assist for longer. Granted depending how strong aim assist is and the caliber of player, a controller user would also need to stay on target for just as long and MnK could very well have an advantage anyway.

TLDR: I think the longer time to kill of Halo means that aim assist can have more of an impact on the game than it does in another shooter such as Call of Duty. That being said, I do think that Halo Infinite does need aim assist on controller or the game will just not feel very good on console and that will turn away a lot of the console player base.
I think the same. I know there is not a "perfect" solution about assisting the controllers. The thing that I'm saying is that right now the assist is criminaly bad if you are playing without it. I know 343 is a company more console focus (the key blinding in MCC is terrible... is like they have never played a FPS on PC) and thats why im worried that will just leave things how they are and bad luck if you play on MnK. that will kill the PC community and with the standards of today it could kill the game as well (or make it irrelevant)
Aquilapath wrote:
Aquilapath wrote:
I hope 343 has a system that will work in Infinite because if they don't, any hope of the game being "competitive" is gone. Which is fine if that's the path they choose, however it's obvious that they want to grow Halo as an esport. If they don't want to tone down the amount of AA for controllers then they need to implement input based matchmaking so that players can choose to not play with the other input. Also the thing I've noticed with mcc pc is controller users will tell people on mnk to just "get better." Then when the mnk player actually shows they are better and can beat someone with an aimbot they complain about how broken mnk is.

For social games I don't care what they do or how people choose to play the game, I grew up on Xbox and controllers and see why some people could enjoy using them. I also spent most of my later teens-present on pc so I've used both inputs. The problem starts when you enter a competitive space, I'm sorry to burst the bubble of all the people who only play on Xbox but if you need an aimbot to help you remain viable vs other inputs than your input is fatally flawed.
you mean aim assist? it's not an aim bot and it's required for joysticks since they aren't as precise. The tradeoff being controller users have a much larger variance over aim and movement speed thanks to the full articulation of the sticks.
Again in a game where you need to be precise, so any fps game where you need to aim at something using an input that requires assistance from the game to compensate for the lack of precision makes zero sense in a competitive environment.
PC perspective yes it doesn’t make sense. But for console not having that assistance from their perspective. At the end of the day I don’t believe there is a way to make both parties happy considering Halo has such a big TTK. Our only hope is that 343 can tweak aim assist to be manageable so that it’s still viable to play on controller but can also appease MnK players. I personally will be sticking with a controller regardless if I’m playing on PC or Xbox.
A little bit of context: I have been playing Halo: MCC since launch on Xbox One. I got a quite average-good, nothing out of the extraordinary but i could carry a couple of matches. Then i move to PC so I stopped palying on Xbox. I was very happy when they decided to launch MCC on PC, and since the release in PC I played regulary (work and other stuff always get in the way... but thats life)

My problem is that since I get back to Halo on PC I always get destroyed. If it is not snipers or Swat Im always in the botton of the leaderboard. I was aware of the aim assist debate but I always think "It is not that terrible... MW has crossplay with MnK and Controllers and it is not that bad". Until yesterday I plug my old Xbox One controller and ohhhhh boy... thats a lot of help (Halo 3).

I get it, they cant change it in MCC because that will mess with how Halo 3 is played. They added Input based Matchmaking (even if i cant use it because it seems like no one plays with MnK) so Im not complaining about MCC... Im worried about Infinite (another reason to be worried): if they dont scale down the assist they could kill the competitiviness of the game and the PC community very quick.
How about we just block cross input support? That sounds far better, because every death to a kbm player is bs anyway.
A little bit of context: I have been playing Halo: MCC since launch on Xbox One. I got a quite average-good, nothing out of the extraordinary but i could carry a couple of matches. Then i move to PC so I stopped palying on Xbox. I was very happy when they decided to launch MCC on PC, and since the release in PC I played regulary (work and other stuff always get in the way... but thats life)

My problem is that since I get back to Halo on PC I always get destroyed. If it is not snipers or Swat Im always in the botton of the leaderboard. I was aware of the aim assist debate but I always think "It is not that terrible... MW has crossplay with MnK and Controllers and it is not that bad". Until yesterday I plug my old Xbox One controller and ohhhhh boy... thats a lot of help (Halo 3).

I get it, they cant change it in MCC because that will mess with how Halo 3 is played. They added Input based Matchmaking (even if i cant use it because it seems like no one plays with MnK) so Im not complaining about MCC... Im worried about Infinite (another reason to be worried): if they dont scale down the assist they could kill the competitiviness of the game and the PC community very quick.
How about we just block cross input support? That sounds far better, because every death to a kbm player is bs anyway.
Dude, why is everybody so absolute?

For Ranked playlist, yes they should probably lock them.

For social they should turn it down the help. When you are using a controller in Multiplayer is like the game is doing everything for you (very little must be done to keep the player in sight). You can have Help to assist the control users without doing everything for them. To the experiment: play a couple of matches with MnK and then use the controller. I even manage to "look on" players I didnt see, and head shots are a lot of more easy.

I will said it again: my point is not to eliminate the assist on control players (it would leave them in the same spot that MnK players are right now) just change it to a more middle ground.
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