Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

Classic Halo isn't perfect..

OP WerepyreND

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. ...
  4. 2
I think one of the issues in this classic to non-classic Halo debate is the usage of the word classic and the under usage of adequate descriptions.

OP, you've made a good point in saying the return to classic formula doesn't mean a return to an experience just like Halo 3 (1-3), that it means a return to the classic style of system progression.
Does that mean you see the progression of classic Halo to potentially include some of what has been implemented between 4-5?

I've said this in the other classic debate thread, I'm relatively indifferent to this debate. But between recently playing Halo MCC online, playing Halo 5 online, and other games such as Star Wars, I did personally find the classic experience monotonous and flat. I felt like a floating camera.
Whereas I find the Halo 5 experience emotively immersive thanks to the modern inclusions of camera shake, movement sound effects, sprint (don't like unlimited full speed sprint), and clamber. All of those listed additions -to me- increase the enjoyability and immersion of playing the game online and enhancing the replayability of Campaign.
That being said, I like the motivation of the thrust mechanism, but I don't like the thrust mechanism itself. I would prefer something more akin to roll which has more tradeoffs to use.
I personally like ADS, but I don't find myself using it all that often. I don't like how that links to the hover ability though. I find that wholly unnecessary to the game. And the ground pound and charge are equally pointless inclusions from my perspective.

So it would be interesting to see the discussion of: What is classic Halo, and what does that specifically entail.
I feel like this would divide the community even further on this topic, to be honest. It's usually classic fans verses non-classic fans. But I can't help but feel given lots of what I've read on here that if you had a thread just for classic fans defining what made a classic, classic, and what points of it were good, great, or innovative vs imitative, that it'd only cause more rifts.

Before anyone aggressively disagrees with me; I'm not insulting anyone or trying to tear apart what you like. I'm simply stating my perspective in what I'm hoping is a respectful manner.
Respectful discussion always solves and illuminates more than anything else.
That really is a good sum up of one reason as to why classic mechanics could be implemented.
Classic in a way that its not a clone of old mechanics but an implementation of improved basic core mechanics which are good for overall balance and could mean better vehicle presentation in maps for example.
Also, the reference in the end is just a cherry at the top.
LoxtonA01 wrote:
So it would be interesting to see the discussion of: What is classic Halo, and what does that specifically entail.
I can only speak for myself of course, but I find the most significant factor of 'classic' Halo to be the design philosophy that entails innovation through the sandbox rather than the player.
In other words, Halo CE, 2 and 3 used map design, weapons, vehicles, interactables like pickups and equipment, and traversal devices like Teleporters and Man-Cannons as the primary focus of innovation, while Halo 5 primarily focuses on the Player's abilities and using elements of the above to highlight them.
xAXIOS wrote:
Halo is the innovator not the imitator. Never has never will be. When Halo does imitate it doesn’t go well Halo 4-5 as an example. Adding sprint, ADS, thrusters isn’t inovating.

Adding something like destructible enviorments IS innovation. It respects the classic Halo formula, any change to the game needs to make sure it doesn’t affect the Golden Triangle of Halo. Gun play, Granades, Melee.
Halo 6 siege

Btw there is a theory on that.
Couldnt agree more.

I think there is a fine line between classic halo & all these advanced movements that have been added. I feel in infinite they will find that balance & perfect it. Well one can hope anyways.
Yes, yes, yes thats what I have been telling people. I wish some people agreed to this.
Couldnt agree more.

I think there is a fine line between classic halo & all these advanced movements that have been added. I feel in infinite they will find that balance & perfect it. Well one can hope anyways.
Yes, yes, yes thats what I have been telling people. I wish some people agreed to this.
I feel most are either black or white on this issue. Not too many agree on the grey area inbetween. One can hope 343 finds the right balance, which i think they will.
Seriously hope this thread doesn't get buried too fast...
WerepyreND wrote:
No one has ever really taken the time to take a classic Halo game really dig into its flaws and try to correct them in sensible ways and push the game forward from there. If Halo has a history of anything, its a history of changes but few solutions. There is so much room to grow with classic Halo and for all the flaws each specific Halo game had, they almost all had something to offer, Reach-H5 included.

Returning to the roots of classic Halo doesn't mean we are stuck with Halo 3(or 2 or CE) forever, its a starting point, a core design philosophy from which new ideas can be cultivated. We never reached the peaks of where classic Halo could reach. It has always been a diamond in the rough. It doesn't need to be molded into something else, it still has room to be refined and polished.

Some people might say classic Halo was finished, but I think it was just getting started.
Lay it down bro. Seriously it is a treasure to have someone like you in the Halo community to see things from this angle.

I am so disappointed by this attitude people have that you can just play classic Halo forever, when the games are extremely flawed and have tons of shallow design choices as well (and yes especially the melee system) and most of the criticisms of 343, truth be told, come from a place that is critical of Halo in general. The problem is just that 'classic' Halo's flaws are just never addressed in 343's games because some dumb new arbitrary mechanics have to come in which take so much time away from it, and not only do Spartan Abilities overly complicate things in the gameplay department, but they don't make the game feel new either. It's still Halo 2 underneath. That's not a good thing. It has NEVER been a good thing.

It's this exact same feel as Halo 2, where everything just works when it 'wants' to, where bullet magnetism is super high in one match and then just disappears in the next, where grenades and melee lunge 'sometimes' work, where BR headshots that break shields somehow don't kill, where you are moving fast but never going fast enough to dodge enemy fire.

It's just not a new game. The melee lunge system is so bad, oh my god. They could lift the melee system from -Yoinking- Skyrim and it would still be better than what we have.
I don't know. I played Halo CE because there was just flat no better game around. When Halo 2 came out I liked it better than CE and there was STILL nothing better. Multiplayer became heavily influenced by MLG and that's where the trouble began, in my opinion. It upset me that in order for Halo to meet MLG standards you had to strip out most of what was in the game, then people started calling that the "core". I didn't call it the "core". I called it Halo reduced to Call of Duty. They labeled me a "casual" for that.

I expected every Halo release to be better than the previous. Every time that happened people said it wasn't Halo any more. Dual wielding? NOT Halo. Hijacking? NOT Halo. Equipment? NOT Halo. Rifle other than BR? NOT Halo. Ability to run fast? NOT Halo. Seriously some people believe Halo is only Halo if it plays like Call of Duty. Honestly why do people expect Microsoft's flagship Xbox selling machine should get no improvements other than graphics? Why should all that stuff that couldn't happen in the game because of 2001 technology still not happen in 2018? Spartans should never perform as depicted in the books and other literature? Sprinting and sliding and clamoring are not things a Spartan should be able to do? 343i should not take advantage of more powerful Xboxes?

Sure, CE was a great game, but it wasn't perfect. We didn't care, though. That's the thing. We played wishing some things could be better, but we still played. Bungie tried to make up for deficiencies, but Microsoft wanted a product on the shelves now. Halo 2 was rushed. Halo 3 was rushed. Heck, even ODST was rushed. Halo Wars was rushed. See a pattern here? Bungie knew Reach couldn't be tweaked before it was released, so they built it to be tweaked after it was released. Unfortunately, 343i did all the tweaking, and they did it according to the wishes of the old MLG crowd. You know, the crowd that likes to play Halo CoD style. I believe the term "classic settings" came from tweaking Reach to make it handle like Halo CE (if I'm wrong I'm sure I'll be corrected). They did THAT for the "competitive" crowd. The rest of us got Firefight Arcade. Thanks, 343i.

This is what gets me. 343i just can't seem to do enough for the "competitive" community, and the rest of us have to settle for "chaotic gameplay". That was Halo 4 literally dropping power weapons right into your lap 10 seconds into a match. 343i somehow got convinced that anyone that does not "take Halo seriously" by playing in Ranked playlists and vying to be a contestant in HCS simply wants to run around creating explosions with oversized weapons. Yeah, that's what WE call "fun" cause we're scared to play one on one with the big boys. Oh, yeah, anything not directly related to arena style gameplay is officially labeled NOT Halo. Occasionally 343i will "reward" our puzzling continued interest in playing Halo games by giving us Tiny Spartans or Ricochet or something nice and silly for April Fool's day. Thanks, 343i.

Look. Let's just dispense with all this "Classic Halo" -Yoink-. Halo is more than what Master Chief can and can't do. Halo is more than the fairest arena settings. The only "roots" this game, this franchise, needs to get back to is the one where we all understand that Spartans are NOT warmed over WWII characters and you can have fun in a match even if you are not the best with a BR and a packfull of sticky grenades. Where being a good Warthog driver makes you a valuable team member. Where being a team member is better than believing you have to "carry" a team. Where I can play, competitively or otherwise, as the Spartan I know about from the campaigns and read about in the books. I want to be that Spartan, not a reasonable facsimile. A Spartan that can run fast, jump high, and will use any available equipment or weapon effectively, human or alien.

Know what else? In Halo CE an assault rifle was good enough. By Halo 3 no one would touch one with a ten-foot pole (except actual really good players). From Halo 3 on your own teammate would kill you if you got between them and a sniper rifle, in a game situation where a sniper rifle makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. THAT'S "Classic" Halo. Joining a match as a member of a Team and everyone ignoring each other once the match starts, THAT'S "Classic" Halo. Quitting to save your stats. THAT'S "Classic" Halo. Personal statistics are more important than your Team winning, cause your teammates are just people that joined "your" match and God help them if they screw it up for you. THAT's "Classic" Halo. Having a game built from the ground up to emphasize teamwork (Halo: Reach) trashed by people that gained their notoriety by being members of "Teams" and winning tournaments playing a stripped-down version of Halo, and believing that there is a number that can define you as a "good" Halo player. "Classic"

What was "classic" about Halo for me was that Spartan IIs were trained and deployed as Marines, and every Marine in Halo, Spartan or not, was BAD -Yoink-. By Halo 4 Marines were -Yoink- that always needed rescuing. Halo 5 - nonexistent. If this next game has Master Chief in it, he's still a Marine and so is Blue Team. I expect them to act like it. I want someone like Johnson there to keep everyone focused.

Screw Classic Halo. I just want Halo.
I don't know. I played Halo CE because there was just flat no better game around. When Halo 2 came out I liked it better than CE and there was STILL nothing better. Multiplayer became heavily influenced by MLG and that's where the trouble began, in my opinion. It upset me that in order for Halo to meet MLG standards you had to strip out most of what was in the game, then people started calling that the "core". I didn't call it the "core". I called it Halo reduced to Call of Duty. They labeled me a "casual" for that.

I expected every Halo release to be better than the previous. Every time that happened people said it wasn't Halo any more. Dual wielding? NOT Halo. Hijacking? NOT Halo. Equipment? NOT Halo. Rifle other than BR? NOT Halo. Ability to run fast? NOT Halo. Seriously some people believe Halo is only Halo if it plays like Call of Duty. Honestly why do people expect Microsoft's flagship Xbox selling machine should get no improvements other than graphics? Why should all that stuff that couldn't happen in the game because of 2001 technology still not happen in 2018? Spartans should never perform as depicted in the books and other literature? Sprinting and sliding and clamoring are not things a Spartan should be able to do? 343i should not take advantage of more powerful Xboxes?

Sure, CE was a great game, but it wasn't perfect. We didn't care, though. That's the thing. We played wishing some things could be better, but we still played. Bungie tried to make up for deficiencies, but Microsoft wanted a product on the shelves now. Halo 2 was rushed. Halo 3 was rushed. Heck, even ODST was rushed. Halo Wars was rushed. See a pattern here? Bungie knew Reach couldn't be tweaked before it was released, so they built it to be tweaked after it was released. Unfortunately, 343i did all the tweaking, and they did it according to the wishes of the old MLG crowd. You know, the crowd that likes to play Halo CoD style. I believe the term "classic settings" came from tweaking Reach to make it handle like Halo CE (if I'm wrong I'm sure I'll be corrected). They did THAT for the "competitive" crowd. The rest of us got Firefight Arcade. Thanks, 343i.

This is what gets me. 343i just can't seem to do enough for the "competitive" community, and the rest of us have to settle for "chaotic gameplay". That was Halo 4 literally dropping power weapons right into your lap 10 seconds into a match. 343i somehow got convinced that anyone that does not "take Halo seriously" by playing in Ranked playlists and vying to be a contestant in HCS simply wants to run around creating explosions with oversized weapons. Yeah, that's what WE call "fun" cause we're scared to play one on one with the big boys. Oh, yeah, anything not directly related to arena style gameplay is officially labeled NOT Halo. Occasionally 343i will "reward" our puzzling continued interest in playing Halo games by giving us Tiny Spartans or Ricochet or something nice and silly for April Fool's day. Thanks, 343i.

Look. Let's just dispense with all this "Classic Halo" -Yoink-. Halo is more than what Master Chief can and can't do. Halo is more than the fairest arena settings. The only "roots" this game, this franchise, needs to get back to is the one where we all understand that Spartans are NOT warmed over WWII characters and you can have fun in a match even if you are not the best with a BR and a packfull of sticky grenades. Where being a good Warthog driver makes you a valuable team member. Where being a team member is better than believing you have to "carry" a team. Where I can play, competitively or otherwise, as the Spartan I know about from the campaigns and read about in the books. I want to be that Spartan, not a reasonable facsimile. A Spartan that can run fast, jump high, and will use any available equipment or weapon effectively, human or alien.

Know what else? In Halo CE an assault rifle was good enough. By Halo 3 no one would touch one with a ten-foot pole (except actual really good players). From Halo 3 on your own teammate would kill you if you got between them and a sniper rifle, in a game situation where a sniper rifle makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. THAT'S "Classic" Halo. Joining a match as a member of a Team and everyone ignoring each other once the match starts, THAT'S "Classic" Halo. Quitting to save your stats. THAT'S "Classic" Halo. Personal statistics are more important than your Team winning, cause your teammates are just people that joined "your" match and God help them if they screw it up for you. THAT's "Classic" Halo. Having a game built from the ground up to emphasize teamwork (Halo: Reach) trashed by people that gained their notoriety by being members of "Teams" and winning tournaments playing a stripped-down version of Halo, and believing that there is a number that can define you as a "good" Halo player. "Classic"

What was "classic" about Halo for me was that Spartan IIs were trained and deployed as Marines, and every Marine in Halo, Spartan or not, was BAD -Yoink-. By Halo 4 Marines were -Yoink- that always needed rescuing. Halo 5 - nonexistent. If this next game has Master Chief in it, he's still a Marine and so is Blue Team. I expect them to act like it. I want someone like Johnson there to keep everyone focused.

Screw Classic Halo. I just want Halo.
What do you know about Johnson? You haven't finished H2A campaign yet, or Halo Wars 2.
There's no Infinity Slayer in MCC matchmaking.
Warzone accomplishes everything that Super Slayer, Firefight Arcade, Infinity Slayer, and Spartan Ops gameplay set out to do, all in a way that doesn't hurt the canon.
More to the point, I think part of the problem is that all the games that have new setting are completely designed around them. But, no matter how good the new stuff is, there will always be a significant portion of the Halo fan-base that demands (and deserves) classic Halo settings. It's practically impossible to recreate classic settings in a modern Halo game. Theoretically, it would be easier to recreate modern Halo settings in a classic Halo game. I think that's what most people assume happens anyway. It's only the hardcore Halo fans that notice the difference.
What 343i could do with Halo Infinite that they've never done before is start with something that is as close to the classic settings as possible, then add all the rest of the abilities in Forge and Custom Games. To be fair, that has never really been possible in past Halo games, because of the limits of the technology. But, if half of the things people say about the Xbox One X are true, that shouldn't be a problem anymore.
People are eventually going to try to recreate classic Halo in Halo Infinite anyway, 343i might as well do it for them before the game launches. If they can make the game's basic settings into something that all (or at least most) hardcore Halo fans can agree on, then they could add all the post launch weapons, vehicles, and abilities into the game they want.
To be honest I think H2A (modern classic) gameplay does show 343i can do a classic like gameplay style. But majority of fans just want halo to play like halo 3, so idk if majority of fans would enjoy H2A gameplay.
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. ...
  4. 2