Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

Feelings on ADS

OP LH Justin

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Nighterlev wrote:
Brightness levels are fine. All those screenshots were also taken on Halo MCC at it's default brightness in 1080p 60fps btw. Halo 5 is the only one where the brightness levels are slightly darker then normal due to my TV's own brightness levels. I took a second look at the screenshots after increasing my TV's brightness above it's normal levels, and my opinion on how the zoom mechanic looks in each game hasn't really changed.

By increasing the brightness by quite a bit on my TV, I am able to see a tiny bit more detail in each of the Halo games, but this is also above what the "average user" would do. This effect also seems to agree with my opinion more so with Halo 5 having the most clear, and see-able zoom mechanic out of all of them to date, because it increases the "see-able area's" even more so then what it already was at.

Are they clearly visible? To my eyes after increasing the brightness above the normal TV's brightness, not really. They aren't clearly visible until you start taking closer looks at everything else, which once again, the average user isn't going to do. Not to mention it also increases the effect of Halo 5's see-able area's by a ton.
I didn't say brightness has anything to do with it. In fact, you can effect little change by varying your brightness, same goes for contrast. I'm pretty sure that somewhere along the line your gamma has been messed up. High values of gamma make dark parts of the image appear darker. By cranking up the gamma on my monitor, I could get an image where everything but the brightest parts of the pictures were essentially too dark to be useful, which is probably what you're seeing.

There are really only two possibilities here: either there is something wrong with your display, or with your eyesight. Since I don't doubt your eyesight, I suggest it's your display. In any case, just to be concrete, if you had proper display settings, in the Halo 2 classic picture, on the column that covers the right hand side of the picture, you should be able to make out all the small bumps and weathering effects on the surface. Also, all the vertical lines going along the surface should be clearly visible. Under optimal conditions, the upper horizontal line to which the short thick vertical lines at the top of the image terminate should also be clearly visible. If you see none of this, or you have squint really hard to to see anything but the last one, then your display is the problem.

Nighterlev wrote:
tsassi wrote:
However, there's good reason to dislike the Halo 5 zoom, because as we've seen, it offers inferior visibility compared to the classic zoom.
Yet it doesn't, and that's what I've been trying to tell you so far along with supporting screenshots.
Fine: it offers inferior visibility compared to the classic zoom if your image is calibrated correctly. If it doesn't, then you need to do some calibration, probably decrease your gamma.

EDIT: I had to go and check what MCC actually looks like for me, and found that Nighterlev's screenshots are highly deceptive. Even with my highest gamma setting, the area corresponding to the top left of Nighterlev's Halo 3 screenshot, which is the most challenging part, was clearly visible, whereas in the screenshot, it's practically useless on most settings. These screenshots are poor representatives of what it actually looks like in the game.
tsassi wrote:
EDIT: I had to go and check what MCC actually looks like for me, and found that Nighterlev's screenshots are highly deceptive. Even with my highest gamma setting, the area corresponding to the top left of Nighterlev's Halo 3 screenshot, which is the most challenging part, was clearly visible, whereas in the screenshot, it's practically useless on most settings. These screenshots are poor representatives of what it actually looks like in the game.
You're right, most of the screenshots are much darker than what the game actually looks like. Not only the peripheral area, but even the reticule in the middle (most prominently noticeable in the Halo 3 screenshot). I don't know if they're photoshopped or not, but either way, they shouldn't be posted on their own but in relation to normal FOV. I found a Halo 3 video on BR spread made on Standoff in splitscreen which can be used to directly compare both. The shaded area of the zoom is barely darker than regular vision and comparing different color hues in GIMP, it's actually 2-4% lighter than an actual shadow cast by the building the lower player is standing next to.
Celestis wrote:
tsassi wrote:
EDIT: I had to go and check what MCC actually looks like for me, and found that Nighterlev's screenshots are highly deceptive. Even with my highest gamma setting, the area corresponding to the top left of Nighterlev's Halo 3 screenshot, which is the most challenging part, was clearly visible, whereas in the screenshot, it's practically useless on most settings. These screenshots are poor representatives of what it actually looks like in the game.
You're right, most of the screenshots are much darker than what the game actually looks like. Not only the peripheral area, but even the reticule in the middle (most prominently noticeable in the Halo 3 screenshot). I don't know if they're photoshopped or not, but either way, they shouldn't be posted on their own but in relation to normal FOV. I found a Halo 3 video on BR spread made on Standoff in splitscreen which can be used to directly compare both. The shaded area of the zoom is barely darker than regular vision and comparing different color hues in GIMP, it's actually 2-4% lighter than an actual shadow cast by the building the lower player is standing next to.
EDIT: The issue I discussed here was a browser issue, rather than an upload service issue, as pointed out by Celestis below. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who reads this to tell me how the images look on their browser compared to an offline version. If in the unmodified brightness 5 image you can just see the vine between the grenade and plasma grenade symbol on the top left, you are seeing the image at least roughly as it was intended.

The whole thing's a mess. I tried to go into MCC to take screenshots at different "brightness" levels provided by the game (which really just adjusts the gamma). Tried uploading to show the effect, but turns out upload services apply their own gamma correction to images. This is MCC at brightness level 5 (unmodified) as shown by Google Drive. This is the same screenshot (modified) that I gamma corrected by hand to look the same as my locally saved copy of the exact same file. The uploaded version will not look the same as the original screenshot taken in the game. The same seems to apply to imgur (this is the same image file as the first), as well as Xbox.com, and it undoubtedly applies to the upload service used by Nighterlev (which looks different when I actually download the image, rather than looking at the online version).

If you want to see something even remotely close to how any of these images looked to the person who uploaded them, download the image. On that note, here's a folder of MCC screenshots at different brightness settings.
tsassi wrote:
Tried uploading to show the effect, but turns out upload services apply their own gamma correction to images.

[...].
.
If you want to see something even remotely close to how any of these images looked to the person who uploaded them, download the image.
Are you sure that's not a browser setting? I downloaded both yours and Nighterlev's pictures and they look pretty much identical online and offline. So does my own. If anything, the online version seems slightly brighter on my machine (by 0.5% if GIMP's color hue data is to believed, comparing screenshots), but not enough to be noteworthy.
Can you compare the screenshot that I posted on your machine as a crosscheck? Also compare it to the YouTube video?
Nevertheless, Nighterlev's screenshots were still way too dark compared to what the game actually looks like, even on my screen, regardless of what caused this discrepancy in the first place...

EDIT: For reference, this is what the identical picture (your gamma_5.png) looks like in my browser (Waterfox 56.2.5 (64-bit)) and in Windows, side by side. Regardless of how the upload shifts the colors, the relative brightness should still be the same.
Celestis wrote:
tsassi wrote:
Tried uploading to show the effect, but turns out upload services apply their own gamma correction to images.

[...].
.
If you want to see something even remotely close to how any of these images looked to the person who uploaded them, download the image.
Are you sure that's not a browser setting? I downloaded both yours and Nighterlev's pictures and they look pretty much identical online and offline. So does my own. If anything, the online version seems slightly brighter on my machine (by 0.5% if GIMP's color hue data is to believed, comparing screenshots), but not enough to be noteworthy.
Can you compare the screenshot that I posted on your machine as a crosscheck? Also compare it to the YouTube video?
Nevertheless, Nighterlev's screenshots were still way too dark compared to what the game actually looks like, even on my screen, regardless of what caused this discrepancy in the first place...

EDIT: For reference, this is what the identical picture (your gamma_5.png) looks like in my browser (Waterfox 56.2.5 (64-bit)) and in Windows, side by side. Regardless of how the upload shifts the colors, the relative brightness should still be the same.
Yup, you're right. For some reason Chrome just applies a ton of gamma correction. Just, why? I just want everything to be consistent. I mean, all this time I was looking at a darker version of Nighterlev's picture than you were, and god knows what Nighterlev was looking at.
I don't like it because of how 343 have handled it. It affects the accuracy and spread of certain weapons, and the implications of ADS are severe: they're moving towards a COD approach. And they removed the zoom function that came with non-scoped weapons, which saddened me.
I don't like it because of how 343 have handled it. It affects the accuracy and spread of certain weapons, and the implications of ADS are severe: they're moving towards a COD approach. And they removed the zoom function that came with non-scoped weapons, which saddened me.
See, this is what I don't 100% get. Halo 4 feels more like cod than 5, even though 5 has ADS. Honestly I don't see how ADS is detrimental to Halo's identity.
See, this is what I don't 100% get. Halo 4 feels more like cod than 5, even though 5 has ADS. Honestly I don't see how ADS is detrimental to Halo's identity.
I don't play CoD, I have no idea what CoD "feels like". However, H5G is so completely different from previous Halo's in its mechanics that it's the first title that I don't see any resemblance to the franchise at all and as such refuse to call it by its full name to validate it's claim to be a Halo game. And ADS was a huge part of that, both in abandoning an integral part of Halo's visual identity and completely changing gameplay design with respect to how guns handle.
I don't like it because of how 343 have handled it. It affects the accuracy and spread of certain weapons, and the implications of ADS are severe: they're moving towards a COD approach. And they removed the zoom function that came with non-scoped weapons, which saddened me.
See, this is what I don't 100% get. Halo 4 feels more like cod than 5, even though 5 has ADS. Honestly I don't see how ADS is detrimental to Halo's identity.
An identity, is especially complex in context of an IP as there are so many facets of it gameplay, sound, visuals, story, and whatever small things are present which make up the identity people identify it with.

Consider the backlash Halo 4 got regarding Chief's sudden new armor after years of cryosleep, the new grunts, the elites. Consider Halo 5's tube rocket launcher vs the old SPNKr model and the so called "power ranger spartans". These are non-functional changes done to the game's visuals, yet people were upset with them because these changes clashed with how they percieve Halo. I for instance couldn't, and still can't, wrap my head around the Pizza, French Fries and colorful "nerf gun" skins for the many weapons.

ADS is one of those visual changes which changes something Halo has had for years, for whatever reason. This "hurts" even more so when competing framchises have had this visual zoom representation for years, and that it's no secret i343 and Microsoft are trying to lure that demographic in with what i343 and microsoft think that large demographic likes.

A lot believe that the visual part of the "ADS" hurt Halo's identity because it had something which people associated with Halo, the simple zoom mechanic, and that was scrapped for an all-encompassing "guns to the face" visual approach, all across the board, for all weapons.

Unprovable anecdotal. I lent my original Xbox along with Halo CE and Halo 2, to my then girlfriend ( now wife ), so she could see where Halo started, after having played a few rounds of ODST firefight. Later she bought an Xbox 360, Halo 3, ODST and we played together. Then later also Reach, and we played Halo 4 together after we moved in with each other. Not that much as she lost interest in it quickly. Her first words when she saw me play Halo 5 for the first time: "What game is that?" I answered Halo 5, to which she replied "Halo 5? Really? Looks odd".

This is a person who's gaming experience is around some Giana sisters way back, tetris, a few mini games on facebook, a quick guide to Halo, a few sessions in various party games, Lego Batman, and whatever she's seen me play and asked about, which hasn't been much, even less with the patience to listen me nerding about a video game. She couldn't recognize Halo 5 on screen after having played all Halos except the top down shooters and Halo Wars.
I don't really have a problem with ADS as much as the way it was implemented. Having ADS on every gun isn't a problem, so much as having every gun gain the benefit of a bonus when using it. IMO that changes the entire flow of the game. It give players an added incentive to slow down for accuracy bonuses, creating (or reinforcing) a sort of "stop and go" separation from movement and combat.

ADS on non precision guns are fine, if it functions like a binocular system and disengages when firing. Having it on every gun just increases the distance of combat encounters.
I don't really have a problem with ADS as much as the way it was implemented. Having ADS on every gun isn't a problem, so much as having every gun gain the benefit of a bonus when using it. IMO that changes the entire flow of the game. It give players an added incentive to slow down for accuracy bonuses, creating (or reinforcing) a sort of "stop and go" separation from movement and combat.

ADS on non precision guns are fine, if it functions like a binocular system and disengages when firing. Having it on every gun just increases the distance of combat encounters.
But you do not slow down using ADS / SS in Halo 5
Naqser wrote:
I don't really have a problem with ADS as much as the way it was implemented. Having ADS on every gun isn't a problem, so much as having every gun gain the benefit of a bonus when using it. IMO that changes the entire flow of the game. It give players an added incentive to slow down for accuracy bonuses, creating (or reinforcing) a sort of "stop and go" separation from movement and combat.ADS on non precision guns are fine, if it functions like a binocular system and disengages when firing. Having it on every gun just increases the distance of combat encounters.
But you do not slow down using ADS / SS in Halo 5
No. It doesn't, but players typically do when zoomed (or initially zooming) to compensate for the zoom difference, especially at range.
Naqser wrote:
I don't really have a problem with ADS as much as the way it was implemented. Having ADS on every gun isn't a problem, so much as having every gun gain the benefit of a bonus when using it. IMO that changes the entire flow of the game. It give players an added incentive to slow down for accuracy bonuses, creating (or reinforcing) a sort of "stop and go" separation from movement and combat.ADS on non precision guns are fine, if it functions like a binocular system and disengages when firing. Having it on every gun just increases the distance of combat encounters.
But you do not slow down using ADS / SS in Halo 5
No. It doesn't, but players typically do when zoomed (or initially zooming) to compensate for the zoom difference, especially at range.
Wouldn't that hold true for the old style zoom as well, especially at range?
Naqser wrote:
Naqser wrote:
I don't really have a problem with ADS as much as the way it was implemented. Having ADS on every gun isn't a problem, so much as having every gun gain the benefit of a bonus when using it. IMO that changes the entire flow of the game. It give players an added incentive to slow down for accuracy bonuses, creating (or reinforcing) a sort of "stop and go" separation from movement and combat.ADS on non precision guns are fine, if it functions like a binocular system and disengages when firing. Having it on every gun just increases the distance of combat encounters.
But you do not slow down using ADS / SS in Halo 5
No. It doesn't, but players typically do when zoomed (or initially zooming) to compensate for the zoom difference, especially at range.
Wouldn't that hold true for the old style zoom as well, especially at range?
Of course (I have no problem with ADS/SS on a few precision guns), and unless we are talking top level players, most are going to slow while trying to strafe and zoom. What I have witnessed in H5, with adding ADS bonus stats on almost every gun, is an increase of players using AR's like precision weapons, holding back and rarely engaging, except at the weapons max range. I have found myself changing to more of a slower CoD play style (and I prefer to rush/flank) where I post up and attack from range, because the ADS system benefits that style of play. I no longer see the point in trying to flank for CC when every weapon can be utilized better at range, even an AR. To me it is just another layer of fluff that takes away from the flow and fun of what originally brought me to halo. If I am going to play Halo like CoD, I might as well just play CoD.

Edit: I'm working this is messy I'll try and organize it better later.
Celestis wrote:
See, this is what I don't 100% get. Halo 4 feels more like cod than 5, even though 5 has ADS. Honestly I don't see how ADS is detrimental to Halo's identity.
I don't play CoD, I have no idea what CoD "feels like". However, H5G is so completely different from previous Halo's in its mechanics that it's the first title that I don't see any resemblance to the franchise at all and as such refuse to call it by its full name to validate it's claim to be a Halo game. And ADS was a huge part of that, both in abandoning an integral part of Halo's visual identity and completely changing gameplay design with respect to how guns handle.
I disagree personally, but my first Halo was Halo: Reach so what Halo IS to me is fairly broad.
Leave ADS out of Halo Infinite.
I don't like it because of how 343 have handled it. It affects the accuracy and spread of certain weapons, and the implications of ADS are severe: they're moving towards a COD approach. And they removed the zoom function that came with non-scoped weapons, which saddened me.
See, this is what I don't 100% get. Halo 4 feels more like cod than 5, even though 5 has ADS. Honestly I don't see how ADS is detrimental to Halo's identity.
Most matchmaking playlists in H4 feel like CoD with shields basically, I think there is no denying it. However, this has to do with a lot factors. From sprint becoming a BMM for the first time, killstreaks, personalised loadouts, faster TTK, unbalanced starts and overall gameplay and a hell of a lot more bullyoink addition.

That said, we're talking about aiming systems here first and foremost and imho that's the one thing together with AMM that is more CoD than ever.
I Personally think Smart Scope is fine, but should be tweaked, it functions pretty much exactly the same as the Zoom always has in Halo except rather than only certain weapons being able to zoom and others not, all weapons have a range of zoom to make aiming able to be more steady and refined no matter the weapon you're using, at the cost of lower visibility. ALTHOUGH! While the bloom/spread radius has always decreased upon being scoped in previous titles, it was always only the marksman weapons that could be scoped, you were never able to decrease your spread radius on automatic weapons by zooming in, because automatics already had their own function to do that, being "short controlled bursts"; this leads to the problem, with the way Halo 5's Smart Scope currently functions, decreasing the spread radius of an automatic weapon simply by zooming in negates the need to pace your fire, giving automatic weapons a magic accuracy buff that they never had before.
If they were to keep Smart Scope, but give only the marksman weapons that use the original scope animation style by default anyway, and actually need that buff because of the long range, like the BR and DMR, while Autos like the AR and SMG can keep the zoom given by the ADS animation but not actually change accuracy of the weapon, giving the player the option to fine tune their aim on a target, at the cost of reduced visibility of their surroundings, without affecting how the weapon works mechanically whatsoever, just like in the previous titles.

The only exception to this rule in any title before 5 was the ODST SMG, in Halo 3 ODST the SMG had a scope (for god knows what reason) and when you zoomed in it reduced the spread/bloom and increased the accuracy of the weapon, this however wasn't really a problem, because ODST was the only entry in the series without PVP multiplayer.

I think I'm done here...?
I don't like it because of how 343 have handled it. It affects the accuracy and spread of certain weapons, and the implications of ADS are severe: they're moving towards a COD approach. And they removed the zoom function that came with non-scoped weapons, which saddened me.
See, this is what I don't 100% get. Halo 4 feels more like cod than 5, even though 5 has ADS. Honestly I don't see how ADS is detrimental to Halo's identity.
Most matchmaking playlists in H4 feel like CoD with shields basically, I think there is no denying it. However, this has to do with a lot factors. From sprint becoming a BMM for the first time, killstreaks, personalised loadouts, faster TTK, unbalanced starts and overall gameplay and a hell of a lot more bullyoink addition.

That said, we're talking about aiming systems here first and foremost and imho that's the one thing together with AMM that is more CoD than ever.
Ehh I mean I understand but I just disagree, imo halo 5 is the tightest game in the series (excluding the story) and it's a shame from my point of view that these refinements and improvements are regarded as "robbing it's identity." Of course you're free to disagree but it's a shame imo.
Ehh I mean I understand but I just disagree, imo halo 5 is the tightest game in the series (excluding the story) and it's a shame from my point of view that these refinements and improvements are regarded as "robbing it's identity." Of course you're free to disagree but it's a shame imo.
I wouldn't say it's a shame, it is just a matter of taste really. 😉 I mean, I could say it's a shame you can't appreciate the real Halo than! 😝

For instance what you call "refinements and improvements" to me are just addition other games did prior to H5. And frankly often even implemented better imho (TF2 just as a recent example). Problem is those games, even though I consider them to be superior titles to H5G (yes, I went there), bore me as well. At the same time however I can still play and enjoy the living yoink out of H2A, SPV3 or even Reach.

AMM games are just not my cup of tea and that's true for many old school Halo players out there. Therefore please understand why it saddens us to see a damn good arena FPS become just another modern twitch shooter like way too many others. 😑
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