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[Locked] Grapple Shot Is Dumb

OP FrozenOrc627197

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Since we no longer have a linear game it will probably come in handy with moving around. But as a weapon im sure it will make for some interesting moments, but i could do without it.
The hook is something that totally breaks with the halo gameplay, it doesn't really feel like a halo, it seems more like another game. I honestly prefer spartan charge to this mechanical trash
It'd be alright to have. But Im sure not gonna use it.
Third, I get that it's the year 2560, but there's no way a grappling hook that size can pull the master chief up a cliff wall. Are physics too much to ask for?
Well in Halo we have space elevators and we do not have any materials that could handle the forces required to build a space elevator.
Same with Mjolnir, we could not build one right now.
So I do not mind the grappling shot existence and that it can pull MC.

However, I totally agree with the fact that 343i needs to fix how it behave with ennemies.
As far as I know if MC grapples a grunt midair, the grunt won't move and MC will be pulled toward the grunt.

I also think it would made a richer gameplay to have the grappling shot behave differently on different ennemies: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/29568daf8cd14083bd1b70a810bf3581/topics/343i-fix-the-physics-before-it-is-too-late-please/e265093d-4120-4017-aa7d-9a8ecbef4d29/posts
MerlinG2 wrote:
First off, the grapple shot doesn't make any sense functionally. Does it impale objects or does it grapple them? If it impales objects, then how does it not explode fusion coils? If it grapples onto objects, then how are you grabbing onto enemies, fusion coils, and cliff walls equally?
Second, how does Chief, weighing 450kg, get pulled towards jackals, grunts, and elites (elites weigh around 178kg). Brutes weigh around 680kg, but would still lurch forward if Chief was being pulled towards them.
Third, I get that it's the year 2560, but there's no way a grappling hook that size can pull the master chief up a cliff wall. Are physics too much to ask for? Why not make it a big bulky brute like grappling gun (grappling gun even sounds cooler). It could shoot a giant harpoon like claw that can either attach itself to the cliff face, take the head off a grunt, or stun a brute. Perhaps, if you use it offensively, the hooks breakdown overtime, forcing you be smart about what you're using it for. But if you're in a snag, it can be a great option to quickly disable an enemy. The careful player can therefore traverse a level much quicker via the cliffs while the aggressive player will traverse slower by having to walk the long way.
Fourth, why add the grappling hook as a movement mechanic when 343i already established thrusters? Or better yet, Bungie introduced jetpacks. Both options provide the same movement mechanics but are already established in the lore and are more futuristic than a grappling hook will ever be.
Fifth, if 343i is adamant about adding a grappling hook, why not make it look like something from the year 2560? Why not something where Chief throws out a piece of equipment onto a brute (think of like a magnet) and then Chief sticks out his hand and it pulls him towards it and when he makes a connection he melees it in the face. Or go full on resourceful and have Chief use a long metal chain as a laso so something.
Sixth, the grapple shot just seems so cheesy. Just because every game has a grappling hook doesn't mean Halo needed one. And if they want to add it in, fine; but at least be original about it in some capacity. This just seems soooo lazy.
It doesn't need to be physically possible, it's a video game! It's fun, just leave it be.
But you'll then argue "Spartans can sprint why can't I in game?!?!?!" Sorry I didn't know spartans are so incapable in their abilities it is impossible to be moving fastly all the time and be able to shoot accurately all the time.
Is this point for me or the other guy as it's quite confusing ngl
"You know, the grapple shot really makes no sense, does it impale or grapple the object"
"I get that it's the year 2560, but there's no way a grappling hook that size can pull the master chief up a cliff wall. Are physics too much to ask for?"
"QUIT HAVING FUN"
Third, I get that it's the year 2560, but there's no way a grappling hook that size can pull the master chief up a cliff wall. Are physics too much to ask for?
The big thing limiting a device's power is its energy source. Say you have an electric winch. This is pretty similar to the concept of the Grapple Shot's cable system thing. Modern winches are limited by the electrical power that can be provided to it. Mjolnir has a mini nuclear reactor. That's way beyond anything in the modern day. Remember, Mjolnir can lift Warthogs and flip tanks. If the Grapple Shot links into Mjolnir's power source, it can be way more powerful than any winch we have today.

But I agree on the other stuff. Chief shouldn't be flying towards enemies that are way lighter than him. Brutes are heavy, but I can see the logic that they should be pulled towards chief a little bit. So I'm thinking Chief should fly 80% of the way towards a Brute and the Brute moves the other 20% towards Chief. Elites get a 1/3, 2/3 split, and Jackals and Grunts simply move towards chief.

A6ENT C wrote:
MerlinG2 wrote:
It doesn't need to be physically possible, it's a video game! It's fun, just leave it be.
It may be a game, but games needs rules to play by. Rules establish what a player is and isn't able to do. A player who can do anything and everything has no obstacles to overcome; no victory to have. And most importantly, a game is especially fun when players try to break the rules. Think of the AA wraith glitch in Halo 3, or getting out of the maps, or any Youtube video General Kidd makes. To quote the Incredibles "When everyone's special, no one is". Physics = rules.
Games obviously need rules to play by, but the rules don’t have to mirror those of the real world.
Halo isn't Crash Bandicoot or Mario. It is based heavily upon realistic science fiction. There's so much lore and detail for everything, it rivals Star Wars in its detail. And yet, we get something that breaks the laws of physics, and it's not even something special. If it were a Forerunner artifact that used anti-gravity waves or something, then it would be fine, but this is a UNSC regular friggin' grappling hook, operating on mechanical properties. It needs to obey the laws of physics because the device in itself is not one that, lore-wise, even could defy the laws of physics.

BTW, isn't it funny how people curse in Halo games but we can't curse on the forums? At the very least, we should be able to say the same things that people in Halo games say.
might be a lot of fun in lower difficulty, but if the only thing the hook can do to the enemy is to pull chief to craig then it's nothing in higher difficulty
still it might be a lot of fun in multiplayer I suppose
It might be fun. Also, I heard it was a pick up.
I love everything op said here in not against the feature but impression could have been better it would have been great as a limited use weapon. I would even be thrilled with the current iteration with like a futuristic spin using like hard light or something.
MerlinG2 wrote:
First off, the grapple shot doesn't make any sense functionally. Does it impale objects or does it grapple them? If it impales objects, then how does it not explode fusion coils? If it grapples onto objects, then how are you grabbing onto enemies, fusion coils, and cliff walls equally?
Second, how does Chief, weighing 450kg, get pulled towards jackals, grunts, and elites (elites weigh around 178kg). Brutes weigh around 680kg, but would still lurch forward if Chief was being pulled towards them.
Third, I get that it's the year 2560, but there's no way a grappling hook that size can pull the master chief up a cliff wall. Are physics too much to ask for? Why not make it a big bulky brute like grappling gun (grappling gun even sounds cooler). It could shoot a giant harpoon like claw that can either attach itself to the cliff face, take the head off a grunt, or stun a brute. Perhaps, if you use it offensively, the hooks breakdown overtime, forcing you be smart about what you're using it for. But if you're in a snag, it can be a great option to quickly disable an enemy. The careful player can therefore traverse a level much quicker via the cliffs while the aggressive player will traverse slower by having to walk the long way.
Fourth, why add the grappling hook as a movement mechanic when 343i already established thrusters? Or better yet, Bungie introduced jetpacks. Both options provide the same movement mechanics but are already established in the lore and are more futuristic than a grappling hook will ever be.
Fifth, if 343i is adamant about adding a grappling hook, why not make it look like something from the year 2560? Why not something where Chief throws out a piece of equipment onto a brute (think of like a magnet) and then Chief sticks out his hand and it pulls him towards it and when he makes a connection he melees it in the face. Or go full on resourceful and have Chief use a long metal chain as a laso so something.
Sixth, the grapple shot just seems so cheesy. Just because every game has a grappling hook doesn't mean Halo needed one. And if they want to add it in, fine; but at least be original about it in some capacity. This just seems soooo lazy.
It doesn't need to be physically possible, it's a video game! It's fun, just leave it be.
But you'll then argue "Spartans can sprint why can't I in game?!?!?!" Sorry I didn't know spartans are so incapable in their abilities it is impossible to be moving fastly all the time and be able to shoot accurately all the time.
Basic physics don't care how much of a super-soldier you are, you're going to be able to move faster if your upper body moves in tandem with your legs. This necessitates moving your arms, which rather detracts from your ability to maintain a stable firing platform.
I think it looks like a ton of fun. Especially since they confirmed you can grapple grunts flying through the air. I'm all about it.

Plus, it's just a pick up in mp that can easily be removed from maps if it doesn't mesh well. So I don't really see anyway it could end up being gamebreaking.
I'm starting to believe 343i care more about bringing in Fortnite, Minecraft, and Apex Legends kids than creating beautiful space-opera games that people cherish for years on end. Bungie did it right.
A6ENT C wrote:
MerlinG2 wrote:
It doesn't need to be physically possible, it's a video game! It's fun, just leave it be.
It may be a game, but games needs rules to play by.
Games obviously need rules to play by, but the rules don’t have to mirror those of the real world.
Halo isn't Crash Bandicoot or Mario. It is based heavily upon realistic science fiction. There's so much lore and detail for everything, it rivals Star Wars in its detail. And yet, we get something that breaks the laws of physics, and it's not even something special. If it were a Forerunner artifact that used anti-gravity waves or something, then it would be fine, but this is a UNSC regular friggin' grappling hook, operating on mechanical properties. It needs to obey the laws of physics because the device in itself is not one that, lore-wise, even could defy the laws of physics.
Spartans (and ODSTs apparently) are capable of flipping Scorpions (“66 tons of straight-up, HE-spewin', dee-vine intervention!”) and Elephants (weighing a whopping 205 metric tons!), yet cannot control the vertical recoil of M7 caseless submachine guns and are only intermittently able to wield two at once. Gameplay supersedes lore-centric capabilities.
I don't think it should be removed, but i would be interested in seeing it have a "meet in the middle" physics system, where the hooker and hookee move towards each other, based on the current weight and momentum of both characters/objects. Some cheating could be done for particularly small (fusion coil) or big (vehicles) objects, to keep things simple.

I also don't like the batman-style zipline grapple. If you grappleshot into a wall horizontal to yourself, you should not float through the air all the way there. You should be dragged quickly across the ground, or if you jump you should follow an arc trajectory of sorts.

I'm also curious what happens when you grappleshot a target that is moving around a corner. Will the grapple break, bend, or just no-clip through the wall? Personally, i think it'd be sweet if they could get it to bend at the corner, but breaking is the second-best option definitely.

I think these ideas would make the physics of the grappleshot feel unique, fun, and next-gen. Overall though, i think the grappleshot will be a fun addition to the sandbox, as long as it's a pickup/equipment in multiplayer.
It's not completely out of the realm of possibility. The main problem would be how a motor the size of your wrist could manage to lift that much weight. The solution: if the motor took energy from the mjolnr armor itself, then it could probably manage to lift that much weight quickly and efficiently. In addition, there is probably some amount of pulling on the spartan's part, adding some of the spartan's strength to the power of the grapple.
I think the grapple is dumb, even if it is very loosely mentioned in the lore (or so I'm told) i highly doubt I'll use it much if any. To me the worst part is it just screams 343I chasing trends yet again unfortunately. It's not game breaking or anything I think in campaign, I just think it's lame.

Now, they have said in MP it would be a equipment pick up item which I'm 100% ok with as long as it's a single use item like equipment was in Halo 3. If it was a Spartan ability and you had it all the time I would lose my mind. If this is the case, I have no issue with it in MP.
Some thoughts on the grapple:

After watching the Infinite demo, I had mixed feelings about the introduction of the grappling hook. I thought the mechanic was intriguing (particularly the fusion coil interactions), but also observed that it didn't really fit with the atmosphere of Halo. However, I have a simple solution for this problem that would make the mechanic far more interesting and more uniquely "Halo."

Say that instead of a grappling hook attached to his wrist, Chief had some repurposed Covenant tech—more specifically, anti-grav technology. Chief would use the anti-grav to launch half of the module at a wall or ledge, which would in turn dig into its surface and reverse gravity, pulling him toward the module. Think of a reusable grav lift / man cannon from Halo 3 that could be used in any orientation. This adaptation of Bungie's beloved solution for map traversal would really emphasize the connection this game has to classic Halo. 343 could even use the upcoming Shadows of Reach to add a lore explanation for the "anti-grav module." For instance, there could be an in-game info panel stating that it was "recovered from a top secret ONI Section 3 Xenotechnology research lab located in the depths of Castle Base that was abandoned during the fall of Reach." This would all be as simple as a reskin and lore patch.
A6ENT C wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
MerlinG2 wrote:
It doesn't need to be physically possible, it's a video game! It's fun, just leave it be.
It may be a game, but games needs rules to play by.
Games obviously need rules to play by, but the rules don’t have to mirror those of the real world.
Halo isn't Crash Bandicoot or Mario. It is based heavily upon realistic science fiction. There's so much lore and detail for everything, it rivals Star Wars in its detail. And yet, we get something that breaks the laws of physics, and it's not even something special. If it were a Forerunner artifact that used anti-gravity waves or something, then it would be fine, but this is a UNSC regular friggin' grappling hook, operating on mechanical properties. It needs to obey the laws of physics because the device in itself is not one that, lore-wise, even could defy the laws of physics.
Spartans (and ODSTs apparently) are capable of flipping Scorpions (“66 tons of straight-up, HE-spewin', dee-vine intervention!”) and Elephants (weighing a whopping 205 metric tons!), yet cannot control the vertical recoil of M7 caseless submachine guns and are only intermittently able to wield two at once. Gameplay supersedes lore-centric capabilities.
Yeah and World's Strongest Man competitors can lift over a ton yet gun still have recoil when they fire them, even low caliber ones.
A6ENT C wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
MerlinG2 wrote:
It doesn't need to be physically possible, it's a video game! It's fun, just leave it be.
It may be a game, but games needs rules to play by.
Games obviously need rules to play by, but the rules don’t have to mirror those of the real world.
Spartans (and ODSTs apparently) are capable of flipping Scorpions (“66 tons of straight-up, HE-spewin', dee-vine intervention!”) and Elephants (weighing a whopping 205 metric tons!), yet cannot control the vertical recoil of M7 caseless submachine guns and are only intermittently able to wield two at once. Gameplay supersedes lore-centric capabilities.
Yeah and World's Strongest Man competitors can lift over a ton yet gun still have recoil when they fire them, even low caliber ones.
Augmented Spartan-IIs are capable of lifting three times their body weight (The Fall of Reach, page 83). Master Chief’s weight is listed as 286.6 lb. The Mark VI armor increases the Spartans’ strength by a factor of 5 (Halo Encyclopedia, page 91)

(286.6 • 3) • 5 = 4,299

While clearly Herculean, Master Chief shouldn’t be able to flip a 132,000 lb Scorpion. He’d need to be 30x stronger than he was when his post-augmented strength was assessed in The Fall of Reach.

... and yet, he does! Because fun gameplay is worth a little ludonarrative dissonance.
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