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How would you fix Halo's betrayal problem?

OP WhoLikesChicken

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I agree with your point, I definitely am not saying that the above proposed solutions should be thrown out because of the edge case I mentioned. I was just interested if there was a way to mold the proposed solutions to also cover the suicide example.
Ah gotcha! I wonder if the damage from the hammer and the hog rolling down the cliff before exploding get tracked by the game as friendly fire? If so, then the proposal others have made about tracking friendly damage would probably help address this. I think tracking that damage towards betrayal punishments whether or not there's a betrayal is a good idea.

There's a chance the damage is getting tracked as kinetic damage though. Like where the game is applying damage as if you were crashing the hog into walls. In that case, I think the solution would be getting better logic in the game to apply damage after that grav hammer hit as coming from the player and not the environment.
I think the “two betrayals” model is ok.
I would however like to see that opened to only one betrayal if this is an “asset denial” scenario.
I’d also like to see for perpetual offenders, harder punishments. Longer bans, XP denial or even demoted to a separate server for a time, where you only play with other offenders. Again, this lasts for a certain amount of time too.
xdlugia wrote:
It needs to take ihto consideration that accidents do happen and many (if not most) betrayals are by accident. People shouldn't be punished for that.
I used to think this was a solid argument for a lot of years. But the thing is that getting betrayed in Halo for the reasons I put in the OP has not decreased significantly for a lllloooonnnngggg time. Right now I'm mostly playing H3 BTB, with a nice variety of competitive and 4v4 sessions mixed in.

I'm still dealing with purposeful betrayals in matchmaking today, as I was in 2004 and 2007. It's at least not better enough for me to "feel" any improvements, which is a big problem! This implies a few options to me.
Either the system in place has gotten Betrayals to the minimal possible rate, and we as a community will ALWAYS have to deal with it at the rates we have now.
OR the system in place isn't strict enough to discourage betrayals to a rate below expectations. If this is the case, more needs to be done than the current system.

And my proposal is far and away less harsh on accidental betrayals than other games and many other proposals I've read over the years. --

Did you accidentally betray your team mate with a rocket? Well, good news! You can still use your other 3 rockets. They're not being taken away from you.

Did you accidentally catch your team mate with a bad nade? Well, good news! You're still alive, and you can use the rest of your BR ammo to cover that flag run your team mate started.

Let's compare this to the usual other proposals I've read over the years, as well as how other games do it.
  1. Mirrored damage. Any damage you do to a team mate gets applied to you. Did you accidentally betray your team mate with a rocket? Well... you're dead now... ouch.
  2. Auto kill. This is similar to mirrored damage, but you don't take damage along the way. If you do 1 damage to a team mate, but it was their final 1 unit of health and you get tagged with a betrayal, you're dead. The same example with the rocket applies, and again... ouch.
  3. Instant kick. Same as above but instead of just respawning, you now have to sit through finding a whole game. Wowza!
At the end of the day, my opinion is that the current system isn't working enough. Getting betrayed sucks. A lot. You have to sit through the respawn timer and then the run back to wherever you were on the map. On top of that, getting betrayed in Halo means you lose any power weapons you've found, and they don't just come back with your loadout on respawn. Honestly, I don't care if it was an accident or not, only adding 6 seconds into a respawn timer isn't harsh enough a penalty. And that's why I propose adding a few more penalties, while trying not to be too aggressive.
Just have reverse damage. If the person is clearly trying to betray you, instead of getting the kill shot on you, the damage is dealt to themselves instead and they die instantly for even trying.
sounds interesting but i would rather boot them from the game.
let them loose points -1 point =to a kill in slayer. if people want to drank ohwell.
let them loose points -1 point =to a kill in slayer. if people want to drank ohwell.
That wouldn't make betrayal stop.
I mean they would lose a point yeah, but if they betray you or a teammate just to get your/their sniper rifle then kills bunch of ennemies with it, they would just recover the lost point + get more so that wouldn't change anything.

As for a solution to the topic, how about we give the betrayed player the choice to boot (if betrayer did it with purpose) or ignore the betrayer (in case of accidental betrayal or dumb betrayal between two friends (it happens)) and if the betrayer is boot from the game then give him a penality like having to wait x amount of time to play with the time increasing each time until he is blacklisted or banned.
Considering Halo Infinite multiplayer will be F2P, it would only be a temporary solution but it would still make intended betrayal to occur less and less.
The betrayer should get the title "Turtle" by the halo announcer and be given a penalty "withdrawal" in the old armor lock ability for 15 seconds. Enemies cannot kill the betrayer while within the armor lock however, Teammates can chose to unlock the player by holding "X" or they can melee the player and kill them without penalty. Grunt Birthday party plays upon their death. If the betrayer commits a second offense the team member betrayed can vote to have a matchmaking penalty applied after the game has ended that lasts 15 mins. The betrayer is then navigated back to the matchmaking screen to wait.
Disable FF in social.
Betrayals aren’t a problem they’re a feature. VERY RARELY you’ll come across a jerk who is just betraying undeservedly, but traditionally the betrayal is an amazing form of self expression and part of the fun unpredictable sandboxyness that has made Halo Halo. I absolutely hope they don’t change the system too much. Three betrayals and you’re bootable seems pretty effective enough without removing all our freedom.
Betrayals aren’t a problem they’re a feature. VERY RARELY you’ll come across a jerk who is just betraying undeservedly, but traditionally the betrayal is an amazing form of self expression and part of the fun unpredictable sandboxyness that has made Halo Halo. I absolutely hope they don’t change the system too much. Three betrayals and you’re bootable seems pretty effective enough without removing all our freedom.
I play a mix of HCE, H2A, and H3 BTB in my (usual) matchmaking composer, as well as H3 competitive slayer.

In social big team, between my team and the other team, there's someone purposefully betraying in ~1/2 the games I play. That's why I want more betrayal penalties in addition to the option to boot after 2 betrayals. I'm tired of only getting a fun big team game half or less of the time because people are being jerks.

It's not really an issue in 4v4 from what I can tell. But simply not playing big team in order to avoid betrayers sucks, because BTB is a fun mode!
Betrayals aren’t a problem they’re a feature. VERY RARELY you’ll come across a jerk who is just betraying undeservedly, but traditionally the betrayal is an amazing form of self expression and part of the fun unpredictable sandboxyness that has made Halo Halo. I absolutely hope they don’t change the system too much. Three betrayals and you’re bootable seems pretty effective enough without removing all our freedom.
I play a mix of HCE, H2A, and H3 BTB in my (usual) matchmaking composer, as well as H3 competitive slayer.

In social big team, between my team and the other team, there's someone purposefully betraying in ~1/2 the games I play. That's why I want more betrayal penalties in addition to the option to boot after 2 betrayals. I'm tired of only getting a fun big team game half or less of the time because people are being jerks.

It's not really an issue in 4v4 from what I can tell. But simply not playing big team in order to avoid betrayers sucks, because BTB is a fun mode!
To add on to this, multiplayer will be free to play so lets just say we won't have a whole bunch of friendly players.
Betrayals aren’t a problem they’re a feature. VERY RARELY you’ll come across a jerk who is just betraying undeservedly, but traditionally the betrayal is an amazing form of self expression and part of the fun unpredictable sandboxyness that has made Halo Halo. I absolutely hope they don’t change the system too much. Three betrayals and you’re bootable seems pretty effective enough without removing all our freedom.
I play a mix of HCE, H2A, and H3 BTB in my (usual) matchmaking composer, as well as H3 competitive slayer.

In social big team, between my team and the other team, there's someone purposefully betraying in ~1/2 the games I play. That's why I want more betrayal penalties in addition to the option to boot after 2 betrayals. I'm tired of only getting a fun big team game half or less of the time because people are being jerks.

It's not really an issue in 4v4 from what I can tell. But simply not playing big team in order to avoid betrayers sucks, because BTB is a fun mode!
Ah great point, I rarely play BTB and take it seriously (not that I betray but just don’t feel competitive when I’m 1 of 8 so I just have fun), but makes sense you’d find more betrayers there. Maybe just a standard vote to kick option would be good in social or something.
I think the above systems would work well, but what about situations where the troll does a betrayal that the game decides is a suicide? (Image you're in a warthog near the edge of the map and someone hits you with a gravity hammer, knocks you off, and the game decides that it was a suicide on your part:) This is a very niche scenario but it's happened to me a couple of times in MCC and I wish I had the option to boot that guy.
That's just funny though :) Along with driving your fully loaded up warthog off a cliff.

I do like the idea of tracking team damage though.
Simple: disable friendly fire completely. No splatter damage, no weapon damage, nothing
The first thing I thought of, was how Halo 1 would be an unplayable nightmare with these betrayal penalties.
sniper945 wrote:
The first thing I thought of, was how Halo 1 would be an unplayable nightmare with these betrayal penalties.
Luckily, Infinite isn't the same as HCE, and hopefully a vehicle moving half an inch won't betray your team mate 😉
sniper945 wrote:
The first thing I thought of, was how Halo 1 would be an unplayable nightmare with these betrayal penalties.
Luckily, Infinite isn't the same as HCE, and hopefully a vehicle moving half an inch won't betray your team mate 😉
I really hope so lol five inches from the scorpion spawn and half my team is under my treds.
At least in regards to social/casual/unranked play, this should never even be a question - friendly fire (including getting splattered by vehicles going 2 mph) should be turned off. Period.

I'm not sure how we overcomplicate this into a calculus equation with Halo when other FPSs don't seem to struggle with it. In COD or Battlefield most people play unranked and in unranked there is no friendly fire. Betrayal problem solved.

Now of course, if you go to the MCC forum and suggest they should remove friendly fire from social there, you'll get the old school Halo diehards arguing against it. They'll say they like the tactical aspect of having to concern yourself with not hurting your teammates, but I suspect the real reason is most of that crowd wants the ability to dispense vigilante justice whenever they feel it's appropriate because you're not playing the way they want you to. Which is why the betrayal problem is absolutely RAGING COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTROL in MCC. I get betrayed (and I mean very blatantly intentional betrayals, not accidental) a minimum of once every play session. That's the experience that's being had by new Halo players trying the game out for the first time on Game Pass, who might never come back.

Fortunately, 343 has always had friendly fire off in social for their original games, so I have no doubt that this will be the case with Infinite.

As far as ranked, I'll acknowledge that's more complicated. The tactical aspect of FF is important there. I'd say there should be a grace period of at least one, maybe two accidental betrayals before the system gives you an option to boot, maybe.
I want to buy some cheese
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