Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

How would you handle armor abilities/map design?

OP bearhound

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First off, I’m a big fan of classic halo (H3 is my favorite), but also really enjoy H5 multiplayer as well. My biggest gripe with H3 is the inconsistency of the BR (although it’s better on MCC now with dedicated servers), and my biggest gripe with H5 is that people can fly around the map which leads to (1) maps are enlarged to account for this, and (2) bullet magnetism is out of control to account for all the crazy movement (just compare the H3 and H5 snipers).

With Infinite coming, my first thought/hope was that armor abilities would be gone and we’d be back to classic movement. Realistically, however, there’s no way 343 removes them all. And I don’t just want a halo 3 clone. So that got me thinking, how would I incorporate armor abilities into Infinite in a way that hopefully appeases to fans of both classic and modern halo.
  • sprint: no (maybe yes for campaign and warzone only)
  • stabilize: yes
  • thrust: yes
  • clamber: yes
  • spartan charge: no
  • slide: no
  • ground pound: no
  • map design: maps are made with clamber turned off. All* jumps can be made without clamber, but 25%-50% require crouch jump. People can still use clamber on these if they want, but you can also skillfully maneuver around the map without clamber.
*All normal jumps can be made without clamber. There will still be very high spots (like top gold in plaza) where you can do the special stabilize/crouch/clamber jump.
I think this would make maps/gameplay feel very much like classic halo, while still leaving in certain armor abilities that don’t drastically change the game.

So what are your thoughts? Hate it? Love it? How would you handle the armor abilities?
  • With sprint, it'll be all or nothing. I don't think they'd have some parts of the game with sprint, and some parts without.
  • I'm not for stabilise being in Halo [6]: Infinite. But if it is, whatever.
  • Yes for thrusters.
  • Yes for clamber, but it should put your speed back to zero, whereas a crouch jump lets you keep some of your momentum.
  • Definitely no for Spartan Charge. It rewards players for sprinting, which shouldn't be the case.
  • Slide...I'm fine either way.
  • Definitely no again for Ground Pound.
  • Have more jumps require crouch-clamber, rather than just clamber.
  • With sprint, it'll be all or nothing. I don't think they'd have some parts of the game with sprint, and some parts without.
  • I'm not for stabilise being in Halo [6]: Infinite. But if it is, whatever.
  • Yes for thrusters.
  • Yes for clamber, but it should put your speed back to zero, whereas a crouch jump lets you keep some of your momentum.
  • Definitely no for Spartan Charge. It rewards players for sprinting, which shouldn't be the case.
  • Slide...I'm fine either way.
  • Definitely no again for Ground Pound.
  • Have more jumps require crouch-clamber, rather than just clamber.
Agree for the most part with your points. My reasoning for keeping clamber in is that people who don't want to learn to skillfully maneuver around the map and crouch jump will be able to use clamber (at a disadvantage since they have to wait for the animation to finish), but those of us who want to always have our gun out can move around the map at will. Having more jumps require crouch-clamber just means that more jumps will require clamber (instead of just a normal crouch jump), whereas I want only the highest jumps to require it. Unless I'm misinterpreting your wording.

As for stabilize, I'm curious why you'd prefer it be removed. I personally like it because I can keep my elevation when wanted to get a view on certain areas, especially when sniping.
bearhound wrote:
  • With sprint, it'll be all or nothing. I don't think they'd have some parts of the game with sprint, and some parts without.
  • I'm not for stabilise being in Halo [6]: Infinite. But if it is, whatever.
  • Yes for thrusters.
  • Yes for clamber, but it should put your speed back to zero, whereas a crouch jump lets you keep some of your momentum.
  • Definitely no for Spartan Charge. It rewards players for sprinting, which shouldn't be the case.
  • Slide...I'm fine either way.
  • Definitely no again for Ground Pound.
  • Have more jumps require crouch-clamber, rather than just clamber.
Agree for the most part with your points. My reasoning for keeping clamber in is that people who don't want to learn to skillfully maneuver around the map and crouch jump will be able to use clamber (at a disadvantage since they have to wait for the animation to finish), but those of us who want to always have our gun out can move around the map at will. Having more jumps require crouch-clamber just means that more jumps will require clamber (instead of just a normal crouch jump), whereas I want only the highest jumps to require it. Unless I'm misinterpreting your wording.

As for stabilize, I'm curious why you'd prefer it be removed. I personally like it because I can keep my elevation when wanted to get a view on certain areas, especially when sniping.
No, you haven't misunderstood. I just explained it very poorly (wrongly). I agree with your reasoning.

I just don't like players just being to hover in mid-air. It partially negates sight lines, and acts as a crutch, whereas previously, you'd jump and take the shot.
bearhound wrote:
No, you haven't misunderstood. I just explained it very poorly (wrongly). I agree with your reasoning.

I just don't like players just being to hover in mid-air. It partially negates sight lines, and acts as a crutch, whereas previously, you'd jump and take the shot.
Got it. Yeah I can see that argument too. Whether stabilize is in or out I really wouldn't be disappointed either way.
bearhound wrote:
bearhound wrote:
No, you haven't misunderstood. I just explained it very poorly (wrongly). I agree with your reasoning.

I just don't like players just being to hover in mid-air. It partially negates sight lines, and acts as a crutch, whereas previously, you'd jump and take the shot.
Got it. Yeah I can see that argument too. Whether stabilize is in or out I really wouldn't be disappointed either way.
Likewise. Ground Pound and Spartan Charge are my biggest issues.
bearhound wrote:
bearhound wrote:
No, you haven't misunderstood. I just explained it very poorly (wrongly). I agree with your reasoning.

I just don't like players just being to hover in mid-air. It partially negates sight lines, and acts as a crutch, whereas previously, you'd jump and take the shot.
Got it. Yeah I can see that argument too. Whether stabilize is in or out I really wouldn't be disappointed either way.
Likewise. Ground Pound and Spartan Charge are my biggest issues.
Nothing makes me rage more than sprinting spartan charge noobs.. well actually, maybe sprinting hammer/sword noobs ha.
• Armor lock should be a default ability
I actually really like this list you've compiled, and wouldn't mind it at all if that's how Infinite's movement/armor abilities worked.

For the sake of fun though, I'll put my own thoughts:
  • Sprint: Leave it in. I'm of the opinion that most people just are blinded by nostalgia with how great it was with no sprint. Careful map design can make maps tactical, fun, and full without needing to inhibit people's abilities to move around.
  • Spartan Charge: Take this out, I hate this ability so much.
  • Spartan Slam: An ability that is too "super hero" for me. I don't think it's useful or matches Halo's feel at all.
  • Stabilization: I'd honestly be fine with removing this.
  • Thrusters: This is one I go back and forth on. I can see the appeal for faster movement or one on one gun fights, but I can also see how it's an ability that we don't really need. I'll but it at a remove and see what we could do with the sandbox.
  • Slide: I see nothing wrong with this ability either, leave it in.
  • Clamber: Another one I go back and forth on. Like you I'd be fine with it being gone if maps are designed so you could do tactical jumps to reach locations (rocket jump, crouch jump, etc.) but I also see the appeal for it. I'll leave it in since I removed thrusters.
I actually really like this list you've compiled, and wouldn't mind it at all if that's how Infinite's movement/armor abilities worked.

For the sake of fun though, I'll put my own thoughts:
  • Sprint: Leave it in. I'm of the opinion that most people just are blinded by nostalgia with how great it was with no sprint. Careful map design can make maps tactical, fun, and full without needing to inhibit people's abilities to move around.
  • Spartan Charge: Take this out, I hate this ability so much.
  • Spartan Slam: An ability that is too "super hero" for me. I don't think it's useful or matches Halo's feel at all.
  • Stabilization: I'd honestly be fine with removing this.
  • Thrusters: This is one I go back and forth on. I can see the appeal for faster movement or one on one gun fights, but I can also see how it's an ability that we don't really need. I'll but it at a remove and see what we could do with the sandbox.
  • Slide: I see nothing wrong with this ability either, leave it in.
  • Clamber: Another one I go back and forth on. Like you I'd be fine with it being gone if maps are designed so you could do tactical jumps to reach locations (rocket jump, crouch jump, etc.) but I also see the appeal for it. I'll leave it in since I removed thrusters.
Thanks for the input. Not to derail this into a sprint discussion, but I will at least briefly address your point regarding "blinded by nostalgia." With MCC fixed I've played a lot of halo 3 (as well as some H2 and H1) recently, and never once did I even have a moment where I wished I could sprint. Meanwhile, every time I play H5 there's always moments where I wish it was gone. I like to think that Master Chief is a super soldier and in halo 3 his top speed is his sprint speed, he just also has his weapon up and ready to shoot.

As for slide, I guess I would want slide removed because of the sprint/slide/thrust combo that lets you fly across the map. Done right, even in a no sprint or no thrust world, I guess you could have slide and it wouldn't be too bad. It just needs to be balanced. Just my two cents.
• Armor lock should be a default ability
THIS + Promethean Vision always active. I want to feel like an invincible sUpEr sOLdiEr!
Sprint/thrust: I combined these two because I feel like one should remain and the other can go. Both can stay, but definitely don't remove both or we're basically stuck with a Halo 2 or 3 clone which would be very annoying. If thrust goes, keep the unlimited sprint and having to stop sprinting to recharge shield. Remove the hit-stops-sprinting unless at full speed because without thrust to dodge if you get knocked out of sprinting you're basically helpless while you get shot from goodness knows where. Keep FOV wide so it isn't as painfully slow as H3. If sprint goes, probably up the base movement speed to match whatever Halo of choice (I say 2). Thrust will work same as normal. Again, keep FOV wide (can you tell I really don't like H3's FOV?).

Stabilize: If thrust goes, remove because it wouldn't make sense to have thrusters that can suspend a 1000+ pound spartan midair but can't boost them forward. Otherwise, I really have no preference. I'll appreciate it if it's there, but won't miss it if it goes.

Clamber: Stay. Never can pull off a crouch jump and it always felt like another way experienced players have an advantage over noobs like myself (in addition to memorizing weapon spawns and claiming them before I even learn there's a weapon there so I get killed by something I didn't know existed every time). Helps balance the skill level to just accuracy which I personally prefer to be the main test of skill, not map knowledge. OP and other posters have ways crouch jumping can be kept and still offer an advantage because there's no animation or something and I'm totally fine with that, just give us little guys a bit of a boost as well.

Slide: If sprint remains then probably stay? Again, it can stay or leave and I really don't care.

Ground Pound/Spartan Charge: Remove both. I think they're neat ideas in concept, but really should be removed or at least seriously reworked (especially Spartan Charge).

Map design: I actually like that 5's maps are larger and would like them to stay that way even if sprint leaves. Small maps like Narrows, Lockout and its thousand remakes, Chill Out, etc. drive me crazy with how small they are because they basically turn into spawn-die-repeat (unless of course you're on the expert team that can monitor spawns and mercilessly slaughter the enemy team). I like having more room to move around before running into another player.
Sprint/thrust: I combined these two because I feel like one should remain and the other can go. Both can stay, but definitely don't remove both or we're basically stuck with a Halo 2 or 3 clone which would be very annoying. If thrust goes, keep the unlimited sprint and having to stop sprinting to recharge shield. Remove the hit-stops-sprinting unless at full speed because without thrust to dodge if you get knocked out of sprinting you're basically helpless while you get shot from goodness knows where. Keep FOV wide so it isn't as painfully slow as H3. If sprint goes, probably up the base movement speed to match whatever Halo of choice (I say 2). Thrust will work same as normal. Again, keep FOV wide (can you tell I really don't like H3's FOV?).

Stabilize: If thrust goes, remove because it wouldn't make sense to have thrusters that can suspend a 1000+ pound spartan midair but can't boost them forward. Otherwise, I really have no preference. I'll appreciate it if it's there, but won't miss it if it goes.

Clamber: Stay. Never can pull off a crouch jump and it always felt like another way experienced players have an advantage over noobs like myself (in addition to memorizing weapon spawns and claiming them before I even learn there's a weapon there so I get killed by something I didn't know existed every time). Helps balance the skill level to just accuracy which I personally prefer to be the main test of skill, not map knowledge. OP and other posters have ways crouch jumping can be kept and still offer an advantage because there's no animation or something and I'm totally fine with that, just give us little guys a bit of a boost as well.

Slide: If sprint remains then probably stay? Again, it can stay or leave and I really don't care.

Ground Pound/Spartan Charge: Remove both. I think they're neat ideas in concept, but really should be removed or at least seriously reworked (especially Spartan Charge).

Map design: I actually like that 5's maps are larger and would like them to stay that way even if sprint leaves. Small maps like Narrows, Lockout and its thousand remakes, Chill Out, etc. drive me crazy with how small they are because they basically turn into spawn-die-repeat (unless of course you're on the expert team that can monitor spawns and mercilessly slaughter the enemy team). I like having more room to move around before running into another player.
Thanks for the input!

I'm definitely on board with removing sprint and upping the movement speed. Maps can also be slightly larger with increased movement speed, which addresses one of your other concerns. I saw a video a while ago that compared increased movement speed to sprint by showing how long it took someone to go from one of the bases on Truth to top pink, and the difference was less than half a second if my memory is right. So that does show that maps can still stay larger and don't need sprint. One thing that sucks currently, however, is that with sprint + slow movement speed, if you want to traverse the map fast you have to lower your gun and sprint. I'd much prefer just being able to move faster and remove sprint.

As to your comments on clamber, I agree 100%. I think my idea for how to design the maps keeps the best of both worlds for clamber -- you can use it if you want, but you don't have to. Unfortunately with H5, most jumps you have to clamber, which makes moving around the map very annoying for someone like me who always wants to be ready to shoot.
I really hope 343 sees this thread. Unfortunately, it's probably too late now for them to make any changes to gameplay. I would want everything that you said, except for maybe clamber. There are a couple videos on it in youtube. I would definitely suggest checking them out. In Shyway's video on clamber, he gave several examples and reasons as to why clamber adds a skill gap. I'm on the fence with clamber. I think any skill jumps should just be a crouch+stabilize+thrust combo. But I do not think that a crouch+stabilize+clamber+thrust combo would be too bad. The only thing is that clamber can be used as a crutch for missing jumps, which lowers the skill gap.
Map design: I actually like that 5's maps are larger and would like them to stay that way even if sprint leaves. Small maps like Narrows, Lockout and its thousand remakes, Chill Out, etc. drive me crazy with how small they are because they basically turn into spawn-die-repeat (unless of course you're on the expert team that can monitor spawns and mercilessly slaughter the enemy team). I like having more room to move around before running into another player.
I'm glad to see someone with the same opinion as me for enjoying the larger maps. Regardless of whether sprint is in Halo or not, I want larger maps to stay. But if that's the case, then it makes sense for sprint to be in the game, so you can still traverse from one side to the other in about the same time as you would in a classic Halo.
As I said with Spartan abilities it is like they gave you all the armor abilities at once instead of having to chose which one you can use. Say what you want about Armor Lock but if you took that ability you could not sprint. Spartan Charge feels like they gave you an armor lock on top of sprint.
  • Sprint: make it interchangeable not just a default ability. If you want to move fast grab a vehicle (they have been interrupting the golden triangle since Combat evolve).
  • Stabilize: We got crouch, we don't need stabilize
  • Thrust: Give me Jetpacks
  • Clamber: Only if you change the 3rd person animation so it doesn't look like you are running up the ladder that we use to see in Halo Combat Evolved. I would even argue the need for two separate animations for differing heights, the standard 8 second one and a longer one for those higher clamber heights. Also I would tie it with Evade so those that can sprint can't climb and those that can climb can't sprint. I think the choice between planer mobility and elevation mobility could make for compelling decisions in regards to map control, battle flow and creative pathing.
  • Slide: I'd rather have the dodge role from evade. Heck if I could I would make clamber part of evade. When jumping hit evade to climb or hit evade to dodge.
  • Ground Pound: So one of the things that didn't transfer from Halo 3 to Reach and beyond was the Gravity Lift. I could see bringing it back as an alternative to jet pack, but it could be used as a ground pound that when in the air deploying it before landing you slam it upside down pounding the ground and making a landing cushion for the rest of your team. You bring back deployable grav lifts and put in some alternate pathing into the map as well as putting in an attack.
  • Map design is a very broad concept. As example most of the competitive e-sport maps do not have vehicles in them. I prefer the ones with the vehicles (I am not playing Overwatch here). As I said before I think it would be better if the separate sprint and clamber so as to create a choice for players if they want to be able to have better movement in the X-Y plane or easier getting up the Z-axis. Giving it all to one player tends to break the game. Now sure players might say give me everything but often with the case that is exactly what you shouldn't do. Sure players don't like arbitrary choices especially when it forces you to chose one or the other (especially when it seems so easy that you can pick both) but again with game design you want the game to have meaningful choices. In other words you want to keep the meta from stagnating because once the min-max equations are worked out and the optimal loadout is solved, you get to a point where the game is no longer about making the best choice as much as it is about acting out the optimal solution as precisely as possible to win the game. Players need to play the game in order to win, not be told the best way to play the game or lose.
I would keep as many armor designs from H4/5 as possible while getting rid of the most ridiculous ones as well as reintroducing some Reach armor types and even variants from 3 (as much as I hated those designs). Then I'd add some new designs unique to Infinite. That way there truly is something for everyone, unlike what would happen if you go back entirely to a more classic art style. Using that approach keeps the fanbase divided, just in the opposite direction.
I'm of the opinion that most people just are blinded by nostalgia with how great it was with no sprint.
That's not a very open-minded opinion to have. Surely, I could take whatever nuanced criticism you have about some aspect of Halo 5 and chalk it up to "blinded by nostalgia", but that would be untrue. Why is it so difficult to accept that people can have equally nuanced reasons to dislike sprint? Especially when many people have and are willing to explain those reasons?

Over the years, I've put a lot of effort into explaining my views regarding sprint and such, and it's always so demoralizing to hear people blame it on nostalgia. I know you snuck "most" into the sentence to soothe people like me, but the truth is, as far as generalizations go, "most people" is not any better than "all people". Both are equally unfounded generalizations, the former just allows you to exclude the people you respect for other reasons without having to face the possibility that maybe the generalization isn't true to begin with.

I find that it's a good rule of thumb to try to be as charitable as possible. If you've got notihng else to work off, start from the assumption that everyone is a kind, intelligent individual who has given a lot of thought to their opinions, and hold on to those assumptions as long as you can until explicitly proven wrong. I think most of us instinctively want to do the exact opposite, and it becomes very apparent on the internet where people are eager to share their opinions about other people.
I feel you OP, I'm pretty much in your same spot. I really loved Halo 3 but I also enjoyed Halo 5 a lot. I'm still debating with myself over some AAs, but one thing I'm sure is that I wouldn't like a game where the gameplay is different within playlists. The game should be consistent with its own style. Something like ranked slayer without sprint or clamber and social BTB/invasion/warzone with both of them would be very bad in my opinion. It would further separate the community because people mainly playing social or ranked would feel less inclined to play the other one knowing they'd have to adapt to a different gameplay. I could be very wrong about this of course, but that's my thought.

Regarding specific AAs, this are my thoughts as of now.
    • sprint: yes. Halo is a huge game and it has to take into account every aspect of it. I would have loved if I could sprint while playing the Arc or the Covenant in Halo 3. I couldn't imagine BTB or warzone without sprint now. At the same time, I would make an effort to balance this ability in the classic FPS arena gameplay that most competitive playlists offer. Maybe make sprint have a big downtime penalty if it gets interrupted by enemy fire. Something like a 1 second cooldown where you can't do anything, not even shoot. This way, yes, sprint would still be in the game but it'd be heavily discouraged in any arena scenario.
    • stabilize: not sure. I wouldn't mind if it's in or out.
    • thrust: yes. I don't know why but I really like this ability. I think it kinda makes sense in the general flow of the game. Maybe give it a longer cooldown so it would reward players with smarter/better cooldown management? Maybe shorten distance if under fire? I don't know.
    • clamber: yes, for the same reasons as thrust.
    • spartan charge: no. Not being able to quickly melee should be one of the penalties of sprinting imo.
    • slide: not sure.
    • ground pound: no. I mean, I don't like this ability in any possible way. What's its purpose? Why is it there? Did Halo really need it?
As I said with Spartan abilities it is like they gave you all the armor abilities at once instead of having to chose which one you can use. Say what you want about Armor Lock but if you took that ability you could not sprint. Spartan Charge feels like they gave you an armor lock on top of sprint.
I don't recall Spartan Charge being able to negate all damage, destroy vehicles upon contact, and EMP nearby players and vehicles after release...

Having Spartan Abilities isn't comparable to having all of the Armour Abilities, because you can't cloak, fly, send out holograms, heal, etc.
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