Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

How would you handle armor abilities/map design?

OP bearhound

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NAG4SE wrote:
    • sprint: yes … Maybe make sprint have a big downtime penalty if it gets interrupted by enemy fire. Something like a 1 second cooldown where you can't do anything, not even shoot. This way, yes, sprint would still be in the game but it'd be heavily discouraged in any arena scenario.
A cooldown penalty where you're unable to do anything might be a bit extreme, but I certainly think reducing your speed, and leaving you unable to reach max. speed if your shields aren't at 100% could work well. You can still run from a fight, which is sometimes the sensible option, but you are still penalised for making the mistake.
Sounds good to me though I'd probably take out stabilize too though it's not a huge deal if it stayed, just a small preference.
NAG4SE wrote:
Maybe make sprint have a big downtime penalty if it gets interrupted by enemy fire. Something like a 1 second cooldown where you can't do anything, not even shoot. This way, yes, sprint would still be in the game but it'd be heavily discouraged in any arena scenario.
Game design protip: if you find yourself discouraging players from using a mechanic, it's worth reconsidering whether that mechanic should be in the game to begin with. Mechanics that punish you for using them aren't fun mechanics.
NAG4SE wrote:
    • sprint: yes … Maybe make sprint have a big downtime penalty if it gets interrupted by enemy fire. Something like a 1 second cooldown where you can't do anything, not even shoot. This way, yes, sprint would still be in the game but it'd be heavily discouraged in any arena scenario.
A cooldown penalty where you're unable to do anything might be a bit extreme, but I certainly think reducing your speed, and leaving you unable to reach max. speed if your shields aren't at 100% could work well. You can still run from a fight, which is sometimes the sensible option, but you are still penalised for making the mistake.
That was the point, right? Discouraging sprinting in any scenario that is not strictly to get quickly back into the fray/rotating to reposition for fights. Still accomplishes its goal in big maps (BTB/Warzone), kinda situational in small maps (team slayer). Also you could still strafe and adjust your reticle to be ready to fire while the cooldown expires, so you'd not be completely helpless.

I mean, it's just an idea and I'm 100% sure they could come up with a better solution if they wanted to tone it down. It was just meant to be a starting point for discussion.
tsassi wrote:
NAG4SE wrote:
Maybe make sprint have a big downtime penalty if it gets interrupted by enemy fire. Something like a 1 second cooldown where you can't do anything, not even shoot. This way, yes, sprint would still be in the game but it'd be heavily discouraged in any arena scenario.
Game design protip: if you find yourself discouraging players from using a mechanic, it's worth reconsidering whether that mechanic should be in the game to begin with. Mechanics that punish you for using them aren't fun mechanics.
I agree with you in general. I don't like when performing a specific action is punished somehow by the game. What's the point of it in the first place?

However the solution I proposed was an attempt to try and balance out the fact that something like sprint is very appreciable for the campaign and some multiplayer game modes with big maps, while not being so well received in the competitive side of multiplayer. That, and the desire to keep the gameplay consistent across modes and playlists. It was basically the best compromise I could come up with.

I'm not a game designer and perhaps that's for the best lmao
NAG4SE wrote:
I agree with you in general. I don't like when performing a specific action is punished somehow by the game. What's the point of it in the first place?

However the solution I proposed was an attempt to try and balance out the fact that something like sprint is very appreciable for the campaign and some multiplayer game modes with big maps, while not being so well received in the competitive side of multiplayer. That, and the desire to keep the gameplay consistent across modes and playlists. It was basically the best compromise I could come up with.

I'm not a game designer and perhaps that's for the best lmao
If sprint is a problem in soem game modes and was intended to improve pacing in others, and it's necessary to keep gameplay consistent across modes, then the solution would be to investigate other avenues addressing the issue. I personally have difficulties empathizing with that, because sprint doesn't improve my campaign and BTB experiences in any way, and I never felt there was any pacing issue.
As I said with Spartan abilities it is like they gave you all the armor abilities at once instead of having to chose which one you can use. Say what you want about Armor Lock but if you took that ability you could not sprint. Spartan Charge feels like they gave you an armor lock on top of sprint.
I don't recall Spartan Charge being able to negate all damage, destroy vehicles upon contact, and EMP nearby players and vehicles after release...

Having Spartan Abilities isn't comparable to having all of the Armour Abilities, because you can't cloak, fly, send out holograms, heal, etc.
With armor abilities you had to pick which one, but Spartan abilities they gave you all of them. There is no choice it is more like a button masher thrown into a FPS.
As I said with Spartan abilities it is like they gave you all the armor abilities at once instead of having to chose which one you can use. Say what you want about Armor Lock but if you took that ability you could not sprint. Spartan Charge feels like they gave you an armor lock on top of sprint.
I don't recall Spartan Charge being able to negate all damage, destroy vehicles upon contact, and EMP nearby players and vehicles after release...

Having Spartan Abilities isn't comparable to having all of the Armour Abilities, because you can't cloak, fly, send out holograms, heal, etc.
With armor abilities you had to pick which one, but Spartan abilities they gave you all of them. There is no choice it is more like a button masher thrown into a FPS.
You're right that everyone has them, so now everyone starts a match the same way. Maps now only need to be designed around a consistent set of abilities that all players will have, rather than all of the abilities a player may have.

I've never experienced anyone button mashing their abilities in Halo 5. I imagine it would just get them killed
H5 has handled spartan abilities the best in the series that's for sure , but it really does seem like we are trying to solve a problem that frankly didn't exist prior to reach' s launch .
I think we all want halo to innovate and try new things both classic and the AA crowd (and the people who enjoy both) same can be said of the map design ,weapon sandbox ,Time to kill and overall pacing of the game within the combat loop.

343i have certainly learned a lot since taking over in 2011 same also for the general fps gaming trends over this period . I keep hearing the pro AA crowd say 'classic halo feels is too slow 'and the classic crowd say 'we can't run and gun' every debate seems to end up devolving back to these points .
I personally think there is a middle ground it involves rather simply applying a slightly faster bms ( try it for yourself in a h5 custom map ) if other abilities are going to be kept ie thrusters/ ,slide / clamber I certainly think they can work provided we stay with an even starts format , I think we can all agree that's an intergral part of halo's core DNA .
  • sprint: no (faster movement speed yes)
  • stabilize: maybe
  • thrust: yes
  • clamber: yes
  • spartan charge: no
  • slide: no
  • ground pound: no
  • map design: have plenty of areas to use abilities, but not like halo 5, which was literally parkour. I would say that halo 3 maps are nice some halo 4 ones as well.
It feels like the thousandth time since 2012 where i've had to re-iterate this, i want to remove sprint because it impacts the mechanics and design of multiplayer in a way i find unenjoyable, not because of nostalgia.

Oddly despite Reach having a rather powerful sprint mechanic, it's the least obtrusive to the experience, why? in Reach AL, jetpack (and in 2011) evade kept it in check, aside from armour abilities, 1 deviation, it was a Halo game. In 4 there were loadouts and personal / global ordnance, sprint was infinite and always with you, you had an armour ability on TOP of sprint. With 5 the other abilities augment and empower sprint despite the nerfs.

The beauty i find in Halo is the creativity of its gameplay and how situational it is due to the 2 weapon limit. In pure arena shooters like Quake and UT since all are available it feels like a game of keeping momentum, and playing optimally / perfectly. With Hero shooters it's how you implement your chosen character into the game, your character defines the parameters. With tactical games like CS team co-ordination and intuition seem key.

How does sprint, ordnance, loadouts or abilities negatively affect what i find desirable in how Halo plays? In CE, 2, 3 and Reach with no AAs the power was on the map, the map fulfilled how you wanted to play, you figured out what it contained and played around it, the map geometry was more crucial to success. Sprint and abilities set the tempo and are inherently powerful, the game plays around the abilities not vice-versa. In classic Halo the map and what was on it defined the pacing, tempo, intensity, strategy, aims. Games were more dynamic as they could be frantic or dead still, only at high level or a big skill disparity do i feel 4 or 5 offer that. The abilities set a static pace, defines what is optimal, the game feels bland because it feels monotonous, the maps void of personality even when they do aesthetically look unique. Loadouts or ordnance either introduce uncertainty, randomness or both, something i find antithetical to Halos more sandbox, readable gameplay.

I empathize that people what more complexity in movement, but as i have also said hundreds of times, why not experiment and get creative with on-map pickups and map design itself.

More verticality, more asymmetrical maps, odd or inventive gametypes, evade/jetpack/hologram as map pick-ups, grav-lift as nades, grapple hook or a gravity gun, speed or momentum gates, teleporters. By removing the power off the spawn and onto the map the maps become more unique and the gameplay becomes more dynamic. As for movement off spawn i'd go the mario 64 approach, don't add gimmicks, give players more accuracy and fluidity to the movement controls, and the movement pick-ups, something i feel Reach has done better than 4 or 5, especially regards to vehicles and abilities.
It feels like the thousandth time since 2012 where i've had to re-iterate this, i want to remove sprint because it impacts the mechanics and design of multiplayer in a way i find unenjoyable, not because of nostalgia.

Oddly despite Reach having a rather powerful sprint mechanic, it's the least obtrusive to the experience, why? in Reach AL, jetpack (and in 2011) evade kept it in check, aside from armour abilities, 1 deviation, it was a Halo game. In 4 there were loadouts and personal / global ordnance, sprint was infinite and always with you, you had an armour ability on TOP of sprint. With 5 the other abilities augment and empower sprint despite the nerfs.

The beauty i find in Halo is the creativity of its gameplay and how situational it is due to the 2 weapon limit. In pure arena shooters like Quake and UT since all are available it feels like a game of keeping momentum, and playing optimally / perfectly. With Hero shooters it's how you implement your chosen character into the game, your character defines the parameters. With tactical games like CS team co-ordination and intuition seem key.

How does sprint, ordnance, loadouts or abilities negatively affect what i find desirable in how Halo plays? In CE, 2, 3 and Reach with no AAs the power was on the map, the map fulfilled how you wanted to play, you figured out what it contained and played around it, the map geometry was more crucial to success. Sprint and abilities set the tempo and are inherently powerful, the game plays around the abilities not vice-versa. In classic Halo the map and what was on it defined the pacing, tempo, intensity, strategy, aims. Games were more dynamic as they could be frantic or dead still, only at high level or a big skill disparity do i feel 4 or 5 offer that. The abilities set a static pace, defines what is optimal, the game feels bland because it feels monotonous, the maps void of personality even when they do aesthetically look unique. Loadouts or ordnance either introduce uncertainty, randomness or both, something i find antithetical to Halos more sandbox, readable gameplay.

I empathize that people what more complexity in movement, but as i have also said hundreds of times, why not experiment and get creative with on-map pickups and map design itself.

More verticality, more asymmetrical maps, odd or inventive gametypes, evade/jetpack/hologram as map pick-ups, grav-lift as nades, grapple hook or a gravity gun, speed or momentum gates, teleporters. By removing the power off the spawn and onto the map the maps become more unique and the gameplay becomes more dynamic. As for movement off spawn i'd go the mario 64 approach, don't add gimmicks, give players more accuracy and fluidity to the movement controls, and the movement pick-ups, something i feel Reach has done better than 4 or 5, especially regards to vehicles and abilities.
Map pick ups is a great idea. It’s just like another power weapon that you can fight for map control over.
I'm really against another game with abilities. I like a level playing field and would prefer no sprint. Alas, I don't think 343 would ever go back to pure classic gameplay. Unless! They add both classic and contemporary play to Infinite. It isnt entirely out of the question. They could potentially have different parts of the campaign restricted to certain play styles. Halo has always been about introducing new things. Halo 2 added duel wielding and vehicle boarding. Halo 3 added theater and forge. Halo Reach and 4 added abilities ;_; So why couldn't Infinite be the first game to have two totally separate styles of gameplay? And then you could choose one or the other when doing matchmaking?
All armor abilities gone. Even (or especially) clamber and thrust. Every single spartan ability when I think about them and how they affect gameplay it's almost always negatively. Sprint messes with the map size and balance of weapons and vehicles. Clamber messes with the map verticality, and reduces the skill ceiling by making crouch and nade jumping mostly useless. Ground pound while easy to counter is just an unnecessary annoyance and can result in deaths that just feel cheap. Thrust rewards bad positioning and strafing with an easy get out of jail free card in many situations, while it also nerfs grenades by making it easy to simply thrust away from the blastzone if you placed yourself poorly and got caught. ADS makes every single weapon easier to aim farther away, even the ones that really shouldn't like the AR, making engagements take farther away from each other and making it easier to kill vehicle drivers with anything. The ones I didn't mention here are tied to another ability I want gone and thus not really worth mentioning.

I feel they all just need to go in favor of how Halo originally played in 1-3 (and even Reach if you're using ZBNS rules.) It had no reason to change other than the sake of it, I play Halo for it's gameplay and I just don't enjoy the new definition of what that is. I feel that there's better ways to make the series fresh without alienating a large portion of the fanbase, like adding new sandbox elements and gimmicks.

As far as maps go I want more medium sized maps like Zanzibar. 4v4 maps with vehicles are always some of my favorites.

I also want more variety in BTB maps that isn't just "Here's Blood Gulch but slightly different." I want more unique stuff like Spire, Boneyard or Terminal. Also would like to see an outdoors map set on sangheilios.
Lyn4301 wrote:
All armor abilities gone. Even (or especially) clamber and thrust. Every single spartan ability when I think about them and how they affect gameplay it's almost always negatively. Sprint messes with the map size and balance of weapons and vehicles. Clamber messes with the map verticality, and reduces the skill ceiling by making crouch and nade jumping mostly useless. Ground pound while easy to counter is just an unnecessary annoyance and can result in deaths that just feel cheap. Thrust rewards bad positioning and strafing with an easy get out of jail free card in many situations, while it also nerfs grenades by making it easy to simply thrust away from the blastzone if you placed yourself poorly and got caught. ADS makes every single weapon easier to aim farther away, even the ones that really shouldn't like the AR, making engagements take farther away from each other and making it easier to kill vehicle drivers with anything. The ones I didn't mention here are tied to another ability I want gone and thus not really worth mentioning.

I feel they all just need to go in favor of how Halo originally played in 1-3 (and even Reach if you're using ZBNS rules.) It had no reason to change other than the sake of it, I play Halo for it's gameplay and I just don't enjoy the new definition of what that is. I feel that there's better ways to make the series fresh without alienating a large portion of the fanbase, like adding new sandbox elements and gimmicks.

As far as maps go I want more medium sized maps like Zanzibar. 4v4 maps with vehicles are always some of my favorites.

I also want more variety in BTB maps that isn't just "Here's Blood Gulch but slightly different." I want more unique stuff like Spire, Boneyard or Terminal. Also would like to see an outdoors map set on sangheilios.
I’d definitely be okay with this! While I don’t like vehicles myself in 4v4, I think halo 3 did a good job of having a balance between small and medium/vehicle maps so people of both sides could enjoy ranked.
I can understand the desire to remove all of the fancy movement options, but when I remember back to Halo 3 and Reach, grenade spam was a huge issue. For that reason alone, I think Thrust should, and even needs, to stay in order to balance multiplayer.
Personally, I'd handle Armor/Spartan Abilities similarly to Reach MLG and place them as map pickups with a time-based respawn system and semi-limited usage, and just design the maps around no abilities. This kind of kills two birds with one stone, I think. Since maps are designed for no abilities, the limited-usage Armor Abilities that are placed on the map become complementary to the map's design while not being overpowered or essential to maneuver around effectively. Since it is timer-based, everyone gets a chance to pick up AAs if they play well enough, given the match runs its full length.

Basically, AAs and map design should lean towards classic gameplay while still allowing the maneuverability of Halo 5 if you play smart.
If armor ability's aft to be in the game then they should be treated like equipment from H3. You can only use them if you get them on the map from certain spawn locations.

If this game turns into another H5/4 then I'm not playing it.
sprint - no
thrust - no but bring back evade from reach and 4
clamber - only for campaign
spartan charge - no
sliding - no
ground pound - no
vehicle seat swapping - yes
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