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My Dad explained to me why the graphics are.....

OP Captain Cromy

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LBzrule wrote:
To me they can make it a lot better by actually making it dirty and gritty. Here is what I mean. That first look is too clean. And it does not match the narrative. This ring has just been taken over. But it does not even look like a battle happened there at all. Where are the bodies? Where is the damage to architecture? The demo just looks way to clean to suggest anything like that even happened. Also, not enough enemies populate the space. The art style of the enemies seems like a rather easy fix, but it's the too clean look that does not match the narrative that bugs me. This looks as clean as the Tower in Destiny 2. As one who cares about the narrative I need it to look and feel like something bad happened here and it does not look that way.
This is just a Destiny with a Halo skin.
I'm not talking about that necessarily though, I'm talking about the cleanness of the environment where something bad was supposed to have taken place. Even Destiny and a host of other games get that right based on the story they are telling at the time. When Ghaul comes in players inherit and inhabit a place that has taken a great deal of damage. There's fire. Architecture is crumbled and broken. The Halo demo appears as if they have a cleaning crew out there to make sure things don't get dirty. That environment does not match the narrative IMO, and that's a problem.
There's plenty of beautiful open world games, its not an excuse for poor graphics.
God Rohan wrote:
God Rohan wrote:
Imma be honest I can’t tell the difference between 60-30fps or 4K to something else unless it’s obvious. But if I have to sacrifice frames for more detail and for it to look more epic then by all means take all the frames you need.
Well you will love the leak that says multiplayer will be 120 fps.
And free to play model. So expect some kind of microtransactions with F2P.
Nooooo this is the lamest -Yoink- ever. Why they gotta do this to halo haven’t we fans suffered enough?
As I stated in another thread. 343 are likely making this game as a Destiny model and accessible to babies. This so as to milk the extremely young audience of money by implementing sneaky microtransactions.

I don't think this game has any future. Guaranteed that it will become another Fallout 76 or Anthem.
how old were you when you first played halo? I was 7 one I played Halo CE. Who cares if young people play it
They just need to touch up the graphics, and adjust some of the available polygons or whatever, and maybe do some redesigning to make the most of what's available to give the illusion of HD or better graphics without changing the art style too much. Most of the graphics just look too plasticky and not detailed enough. While other graphics are actually extremely detailed.
I know it's easier said than done, I'm no graphics engine developer (if that's the official role/title), especially if this is the latest build, but this is what I would like to see.
C0RRuPTT wrote:
C0RRuPTT wrote:
....not what we are wanting.

My Dad has been programming and writing code since the 1980s when it was essentially a new thing. When I was a kid he worked for WordPerfect and then Novell out of Utah. He has freelanced for the last several decades and literally knows everything there is about writing code and programming.

So, I brought this Halo Infinite thing up with him tonight when I took my family over to visit Grandma and Grandpa. I showed him the video and we got talking about it and told him the gripes some have with the game.

Essentially, what he said was it all goes into two factors. They are making an open-world game and not a hallway game. That code is extremely complex and in open-world games there is a tremendous amount of code that is running at all times taking away the power that would be focused on just what you are seeing and experiencing in a 1st person "hallway" shooter as he called them. In a 1st person shooter, the only code that is running is what is happening at that very moment. In an open world game, there is tons more code running at all times to keep the open-world intact (can't remember all of the details about this part, but in general that was what he said).

So, if they are trying to hit a target of 4K 60fps there is only so much fidelity that they can put on the screen before the engine redlines and cannot hold those numbers. It will make the graphics engine chug. So, since we demanded 4K 60fps there is a limit of how much detail we are going to be able to see to keep that. I guess that makes sense now why FarCry 6 and AC Valhalla are 4K 30fps because the amount of detail you can display is much higher.

To me that makes sense. Thoughts.

Thoughts.
He is right, and that has always been true. Grand Theft Auto games have historically had worse graphics than the current technology of that time. Ie Vice City and San
Andreas, yet both were amazing games.
GTA 5 looks three times better then Halo: Infinite. And that game is many years old now.
It is also a finished product, while Infinite is not.
And Halo: Infinite will likely launch in a poor state, incomplete with missing features. So...
What features do you think will be missing?
C0RRuPTT wrote:
....not what we are wanting.

My Dad has been programming and writing code since the 1980s when it was essentially a new thing. When I was a kid he worked for WordPerfect and then Novell out of Utah. He has freelanced for the last several decades and literally knows everything there is about writing code and programming.

So, I brought this Halo Infinite thing up with him tonight when I took my family over to visit Grandma and Grandpa. I showed him the video and we got talking about it and told him the gripes some have with the game.

Essentially, what he said was it all goes into two factors. They are making an open-world game and not a hallway game. That code is extremely complex and in open-world games there is a tremendous amount of code that is running at all times taking away the power that would be focused on just what you are seeing and experiencing in a 1st person "hallway" shooter as he called them. In a 1st person shooter, the only code that is running is what is happening at that very moment. In an open world game, there is tons more code running at all times to keep the open-world intact (can't remember all of the details about this part, but in general that was what he said).

So, if they are trying to hit a target of 4K 60fps there is only so much fidelity that they can put on the screen before the engine redlines and cannot hold those numbers. It will make the graphics engine chug. So, since we demanded 4K 60fps there is a limit of how much detail we are going to be able to see to keep that. I guess that makes sense now why FarCry 6 and AC Valhalla are 4K 30fps because the amount of detail you can display is much higher.

To me that makes sense. Thoughts.

Thoughts.
He is right, and that has always been true. Grand Theft Auto games have historically had worse graphics than the current technology of that time. Ie Vice City and San
Andreas, yet both were amazing games.
GTA 5 looks three times better then Halo: Infinite. And that game is many years old now.
I really don't see this. GTA V CAN look better on PC with a ton of mods and at a sacrifice of framerate. But comparing base game to base game? GTA V is pretty but when you get up close, many of the textures are low res, and character models are poor. But then again, graphics/style can be somewhat subjective. Infinite doesn't look as good as something like Battlefield 5 or Metro Exodus, but they also have a grittier, more realistic style. Fixing the lighting in Infinite (and in all honesty prioritizing ray tracing to be in at launch) should come first.
Meh, I feel that is just accurate tech spin for lack of direction from the higher ups. He is right in so many ways, but wrong when you take into consideration that, it should be expected, and worked out at the "whiteboard " stage. That all lands on the shoulders of upper mgt, and that has always been 343's problem. Upper mgt needs a shakeup and has for a long time.

Edit: 343 is just an offshoot of MS management, and therefore is malleable to the "greater good" of MS in general.
Red Dead Redemption looks milles better than Infinite and was done for the current-gen. So if the Series X is much more powerful and atleast twice as the powerful of the Xbone, then I don't think there's a good excuse that Infinite looks mediocre.
While your father might undoubtedly be a brilliant programmer, the world of graphics development is a little different. Yes, 'corridor/hallway' games have a larger power budget to attribute to immediate visual fidelity due to the lower object count and ability to occlude more objects, but well crafted games employ various methods to ensure the graphics are up to par (as another user already mentioned). Typically all the same techniques and paradigms are employed across all genres of games, but the effectiveness in their use depends on the proficiency of the developer.

It seems as your father was attributing open world 'code complexity' more to the CPU side of things as linear games only need to process the immediate surroundings/current level while open world games would need to keep track of events going on beyond the immediate vicinity. This is done separately of the graphics pipeline and bears no impact on graphical fidelity. The only effect a bogged down CPU would have on graphics is crippling the framerate (once again, fidelity not affected) because now the GPU has to wait for it. For this to actually happen though, the CPU would have to be quite slow, which is exactly the case with the current gen of consoles.

Graphics rendering techniques are the same whether the game is linear or open world. Modern engines only render things visible in the FoV, so for an open world game the only additional graphical performance hit comes from potentially more objects on screen due to longer draw distances.

Using other open world games as an example, 'open world' is a poor excuse for Halo Infinite's poor showing. RDR2 features a massive world that includes a variety of phenomenal looking landscapes and is overall a graphical powerhouse. CDProjektRed have consistently shown great results from their open world environment games like Witcher 3 and the upcoming CP2077. Naughty Dog goes above and beyond with every release, with Uncharted 4 and TLOU2 being technical showcases even though they are only somewhat open world. While all of these are only 30 fps on consoles, even with 10x the graphical power the framerate would not be much higher due to the weak CPU's in the PS4 and Xbox.

What was showcased in the Infinite reveal that was technically impressive? Was it the poor material work? Muddy textures? Flat lighting? Blatant pop in? Lack of advanced physics simulation or any kind of destruction? Poor particle fx? Lifeless world (no swaying trees/foilage)? Laughable animation work (phantoms, brohammer, Eschraum)?

There is no argument that Halo Infinite looks incredibly sub par when compared to modern graphical expectations; it is downright embarrassing. Perhaps this unfortunate outcome really is the result of the base Xbox and the One X holding back the scope of the game. Otherwise, I'd wager that the Slipspace engine is once again nothing more than a reworked Blam! and 343i are still using the very same 'archaic' legacy dev tools. On the risk of getting flagged by a moderator, I could go as far as saying that 343i as a whole is an incompetent studio (this doesn't mean that there aren't talented and outstanding members of the team however).
....not what we are wanting.

My Dad has been programming and writing code since the 1980s when it was essentially a new thing. When I was a kid he worked for WordPerfect and then Novell out of Utah. He has freelanced for the last several decades and literally knows everything there is about writing code and programming.

So, I brought this Halo Infinite thing up with him tonight when I took my family over to visit Grandma and Grandpa. I showed him the video and we got talking about it and told him the gripes some have with the game.

Essentially, what he said was it all goes into two factors. They are making an open-world game and not a hallway game. That code is extremely complex and in open-world games there is a tremendous amount of code that is running at all times taking away the power that would be focused on just what you are seeing and experiencing in a 1st person "hallway" shooter as he called them. In a 1st person shooter, the only code that is running is what is happening at that very moment. In an open world game, there is tons more code running at all times to keep the open-world intact (can't remember all of the details about this part, but in general that was what he said).

So, if they are trying to hit a target of 4K 60fps there is only so much fidelity that they can put on the screen before the engine redlines and cannot hold those numbers. It will make the graphics engine chug. So, since we demanded 4K 60fps there is a limit of how much detail we are going to be able to see to keep that. I guess that makes sense now why FarCry 6 and AC Valhalla are 4K 30fps because the amount of detail you can display is much higher.

To me that makes sense. Thoughts.

Thoughts.
I get what he ie saying. But I'm not sure they can use this excuse. Destiny 2 looks amazing on my one x in 4k hdr. And its going to have an upgraded version on series x. Halo infinite may looks worse then a what 5 year old game when it launches.
My question is, why do other open-world games look better than what we've seen out of infinite?
Papa is right :)
It looks fun, and can pass for a modern xb1x game. Im content. They said they will be adding raytracing later as well on the series x.

Overall im still excited.
LBzrule wrote:
LBzrule wrote:
To me they can make it a lot better by actually making it dirty and gritty. Here is what I mean. That first look is too clean. And it does not match the narrative. This ring has just been taken over. But it does not even look like a battle happened there at all. Where are the bodies? Where is the damage to architecture? The demo just looks way to clean to suggest anything like that even happened. Also, not enough enemies populate the space. The art style of the enemies seems like a rather easy fix, but it's the too clean look that does not match the narrative that bugs me. This looks as clean as the Tower in Destiny 2. As one who cares about the narrative I need it to look and feel like something bad happened here and it does not look that way.
This is just a Destiny with a Halo skin.
I'm not talking about that necessarily though, I'm talking about the cleanness of the environment where something bad was supposed to have taken place. Even Destiny and a host of other games get that right based on the story they are telling at the time. When Ghaul comes in players inherit and inhabit a place that has taken a great deal of damage. There's fire. Architecture is crumbled and broken. The Halo demo appears as if they have a cleaning crew out there to make sure things don't get dirty. That environment does not match the narrative IMO, and that's a problem.
Agreed. Even the crashed Pelican looks too clean and the warthog does not get dirty as it drives through mud.
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Darwi wrote:
The clean / simplified art style is;
a) a nostalgic nod to the Halos of old.
I despise this. A lot of people are parroting this idea that the simple style we saw in the Infinite demo is a nod to the Halos of old, but even the original Halo CE and Halo 2 (classic) were filled with all sorts of attention to detail and incredible nuances that Bungie put a lot of time, heart and passion into. I'm just not seeing that in Infinite's aesthetics at all. So no, I don't see the bland, untextured-looking styles of Infinite as being a nod to the Halo's of old. Even if that was 343i's intention, they've missed the point. Halo may have been limited by old technology, and the silhouettes and geometry may have been simpler, but there is so much going on at a deeper level in Halos CE, 2 and 3 (again, classic) that simply isn't there in Halo Infinite, or at least not present in what we've seen of Infinite so far. 343i really need to spend much more time in classic Halos CE, 2 and 3, and explore every finite detail in order to evoke the deepest levels of Halo they can possibly achieve in Infinite. Because currently, they are nowhere near where they should be.
....not what we are wanting.

My Dad has been programming and writing code since the 1980s when it was essentially a new thing. When I was a kid he worked for WordPerfect and then Novell out of Utah. He has freelanced for the last several decades and literally knows everything there is about writing code and programming.

So, I brought this Halo Infinite thing up with him tonight when I took my family over to visit Grandma and Grandpa. I showed him the video and we got talking about it and told him the gripes some have with the game.

Essentially, what he said was it all goes into two factors. They are making an open-world game and not a hallway game. That code is extremely complex and in open-world games there is a tremendous amount of code that is running at all times taking away the power that would be focused on just what you are seeing and experiencing in a 1st person "hallway" shooter as he called them. In a 1st person shooter, the only code that is running is what is happening at that very moment. In an open world game, there is tons more code running at all times to keep the open-world intact (can't remember all of the details about this part, but in general that was what he said).

So, if they are trying to hit a target of 4K 60fps there is only so much fidelity that they can put on the screen before the engine redlines and cannot hold those numbers. It will make the graphics engine chug. So, since we demanded 4K 60fps there is a limit of how much detail we are going to be able to see to keep that. I guess that makes sense now why FarCry 6 and AC Valhalla are 4K 30fps because the amount of detail you can display is much higher.

To me that makes sense. Thoughts.

Thoughts.
Yes, your dad has a point. An open world game has to run everything at the same time in one map, one of the biggest issues is the poping textures. This happen´s in games like GTA V, while you are driving the game is loading and poping textures, and if you TP to a particular place it late´s a bit,
C0RRuPTT wrote:
....not what we are wanting.

My Dad has been programming and writing code since the 1980s when it was essentially a new thing. When I was a kid he worked for WordPerfect and then Novell out of Utah. He has freelanced for the last several decades and literally knows everything there is about writing code and programming.

So, I brought this Halo Infinite thing up with him tonight when I took my family over to visit Grandma and Grandpa. I showed him the video and we got talking about it and told him the gripes some have with the game.

Essentially, what he said was it all goes into two factors. They are making an open-world game and not a hallway game. That code is extremely complex and in open-world games there is a tremendous amount of code that is running at all times taking away the power that would be focused on just what you are seeing and experiencing in a 1st person "hallway" shooter as he called them. In a 1st person shooter, the only code that is running is what is happening at that very moment. In an open world game, there is tons more code running at all times to keep the open-world intact (can't remember all of the details about this part, but in general that was what he said).

So, if they are trying to hit a target of 4K 60fps there is only so much fidelity that they can put on the screen before the engine redlines and cannot hold those numbers. It will make the graphics engine chug. So, since we demanded 4K 60fps there is a limit of how much detail we are going to be able to see to keep that. I guess that makes sense now why FarCry 6 and AC Valhalla are 4K 30fps because the amount of detail you can display is much higher.

To me that makes sense. Thoughts.

Thoughts.
He is right, and that has always been true. Grand Theft Auto games have historically had worse graphics than the current technology of that time. Ie Vice City and San
Andreas, yet both were amazing games.
GTA 5 looks three times better then Halo: Infinite. And that game is many years old now.
Really?

I just popped on GTA V to see if you were smoking pot or if my memory was slipping, and GTA V looks very dated at this point. You are wrong big time.
Darwi wrote:
Yep, you're dad is spot on.

Quote:
The clean / simplified art style is;
a) a nostalgic nod to the Halos of old.
my guy, please stop, what we saw so far, was NOT classic artstyle. it was merely a failed attempt, thats not how ce - 3 looked like, at all.
RDR2 is the best looking game I've ever seen, and that was on a weaker console with a smaller budget.
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