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ODSTS in Infinite (New Thread)

OP LITTLEFATMONKEY

Hi all,

For some reason we were told to continue our discussion about ODSTs elsewhere - @tL Armada

tL Armada wrote:
I mean to me, Osiris 100% looked like power rangers. TBH Blue Team didn't look great either. Until I saw the new coatings for Infinite, I thought 343 would never design a cool spartan. The circular helmets etc. all looked very power ranger to me.
I see sleek, futuristic battle armor when I see Osiris, not skin tight spandex. Is there beauty in simplicity, and their armor is too 'busy', so to speak? Perhaps. But I've always held that simply denoting them as 'power rangers' is a very nebulous and weak comparison to make.
Quote:
but I do generally dislike the Spartan IVs, they all see cocky and unprofessional, and after all the interesting lore about SPARTANs in the universe, the S-IV program sort of ruined it for me by just opening the board and saying "hey everyone's a spartan now!"
To say they all seem cocky is a rather bold statement. How many of: Palmer, DeMarco, Madsen, Hoya, Grant, Thorne, Locke, Vale, Tanaka, Buck, Romeo, Micky, Dutch, Gretchen, Davis, Holt, Kodiak, Ray would you say were cocky? I get not liking some Spartan-IVs, but I see all too often people make grand sweeping statements as though all--or even most--of them act a certain way when it just isn't the case.

My beef with Osiris is not just being "too busy." That is a huge issue for me with most 343 designs (particularly in Guardians,) but I really do think they look like toys. It was a part of 343 trying to wrestle Halo away from its original industrial/military aesthetic and go for more of a star trek type feel. In fact, almost every design for Halo 4 and 5 took something that was industrial, angular, and military looking, and made it more rounded and scientific looking.

When this is what you expect: https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/b6ocre/made_a_poster_of_mine_and_my_friends_spartans/

and this is what you get: https://www.halopedia.org/Fireteam_Osiris#/media/File:H5G-Fireteam_Osiris_GI.jpg

I truly think that comparing it to these guys is absolutely reasonable: https://www.gamespot.com/images/1300-3058307Its fine to me if others want to play as these Spartans. Truly. To each their own. I just don't want to see them taking over the campaign like they did in 4 and 5. My comment in regards to Spartan-IVs is specifically in regards to their portrayal in the games. And yes, so far they have *all* seemed cocky and unprofessional in the games. Particularly fireteam Osiris, and Majestic or whoever you play as in Spartan Ops. All it takes is a few to put a sour taste in my mouth... fundamentally the lore around the Spartan IVs is pretty lame compared to S-III or S-II. Having Locke nearly beat Chief in a fight in 5 was very counter to the lore and was basically 343 trying to pit the old Halo against the new Halo. For me, the new spartan's arrogance is representative of the arrogance of a studio that came into an incredibly rich, lore filled universe, and tried to re-design everything as if they could do better.
Hi all,

For some reason we were told to continue our discussion about ODSTs elsewhere - @tL Armada

tL Armada wrote:
I mean to me, Osiris 100% looked like power rangers. TBH Blue Team didn't look great either. Until I saw the new coatings for Infinite, I thought 343 would never design a cool spartan. The circular helmets etc. all looked very power ranger to me.
I see sleek, futuristic battle armor when I see Osiris, not skin tight spandex. Is there beauty in simplicity, and their armor is too 'busy', so to speak? Perhaps. But I've always held that simply denoting them as 'power rangers' is a very nebulous and weak comparison to make.
Quote:
but I do generally dislike the Spartan IVs, they all see cocky and unprofessional, and after all the interesting lore about SPARTANs in the universe, the S-IV program sort of ruined it for me by just opening the board and saying "hey everyone's a spartan now!"
To say they all seem cocky is a rather bold statement. How many of: Palmer, DeMarco, Madsen, Hoya, Grant, Thorne, Locke, Vale, Tanaka, Buck, Romeo, Micky, Dutch, Gretchen, Davis, Holt, Kodiak, Ray would you say were cocky? I get not liking some Spartan-IVs, but I see all too often people make grand sweeping statements as though all--or even most--of them act a certain way when it just isn't the case.

My beef with Osiris is not just being "too busy." That is a huge issue for me with most 343 designs (particularly in Guardians,) but I really do think they look like toys. It was a part of 343 trying to wrestle Halo away from its original industrial/military aesthetic and go for more of a star trek type feel. In fact, almost every design for Halo 4 and 5 took something that was industrial, angular, and military looking, and made it more rounded and scientific looking.

When this is what you expect: https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/b6ocre/made_a_poster_of_mine_and_my_friends_spartans/

and this is what you get: https://www.halopedia.org/Fireteam_Osiris#/media/File:H5G-Fireteam_Osiris_GI.jpg

I truly think that comparing it to these guys is absolutely reasonable: https://www.gamespot.com/images/1300-3058307Its fine to me if others want to play as these Spartans. Truly. To each their own. I just don't want to see them taking over the campaign like they did in 4 and 5. My comment in regards to Spartan-IVs is specifically in regards to their portrayal in the games. And yes, so far they have *all* seemed cocky and unprofessional in the games. Particularly fireteam Osiris, and Majestic or whoever you play as in Spartan Ops. All it takes is a few to put a sour taste in my mouth... fundamentally the lore around the Spartan IVs is pretty lame compared to S-III or S-II. Having Locke nearly beat Chief in a fight in 5 was very counter to the lore and was basically 343 trying to pit the old Halo against the new Halo. For me, the new spartan's arrogance is representative of the arrogance of a studio that came into an incredibly rich, lore filled universe, and tried to re-design everything as if they could do better.
I would 100% take ODST teammates over Spartan IVs. They were clearly used as a device in 4 to show that while Chief was away the world went on without him and had attempted to replace him. Now granted, the story does use this as a contrasting point to show that the Chief still stands above them. The problem is, now that they’ve made that point and moved on from it, the inclusion of so many different Spartans really limits how special being a Spartan should be. It’s gone from being a title earned by literally giving your entire life to the military to instead just being like “you fight pretty well, here’s some super soldier serum and a suit of armor”.
I personally would only like to fight alongside marines and ODSTs. I felt that the other Spartans really cheapened the feeling of being a Spartan in Halo 4 and 5.
I personally would only like to fight alongside marines and ODSTs. I felt that the other Spartans really cheapened the feeling of being a Spartan in Halo 4 and 5.
That's a great way of putting it. Seeing Spartans show up randomly as casual NPCs and die as quick as Marines really cheapened the experience. I think that having Spartan teammates was a kind of cool idea, but I didn't like the armor design and how useless your teammates were.
One of the Mega Construx marines (a female sniper) has an ODST helmet. Might be a long shot but that could be an indication that ODSTs will be present in Infinite.
Big fan of Power Rangers here alongside Halo, so the thought of H5 Spartans looking like Power Rangers stems much from the lack of black under suits in my opinion. The busy designs of H5 have already been fixed in Infinite, meaning that the overly shiny plastic-like armor (which many compared to Power Rangers) is replaced with rugged, simplistic, military designs of Bungie-era Halo games.
Meh, I'd like to continue working with Blue Team or any of the other Spartan Teams. NPCs like Marines and ODSTs are cool to have around but I haven't seen good AI engagement with any. So having teammates with shields to revive will be better than NPCs that will just die.
Meh, I'd like to continue working with Blue Team or any of the other Spartan Teams. NPCs like Marines and ODSTs are cool to have around but I haven't seen good AI engagement with any. So having teammates with shields to revive will be better than NPCs that will just die.
Personally I really really dislike the implementation of reviving in Halo 5. I've always done just fine keeping marines alive and having them help me, it just gets hard on legendary. Better AI is the solution to me, rather than teammates with shields. Especially in Infinite where it seems like there are no squad mate dynamics, Spartan NPCs randomly showing up would seem weird to me. The biggest thing to me is that Spartans are too important of a part of the narrative for there to be generic, unnamed NPC Spartans randomly getting gunned down in firefights.
The Covenant have always had multiple tiers to their ranks, UNSC should have more than marines and Spartans. ODSTs are a great way to bring a stronger team with you. They should be equipped with better gear and more health, and health recovery; but dead is dead, no reviving them.
My beef with Osiris is not just being "too busy." That is a huge issue for me with most 343 designs (particularly in Guardians,) but I really do think they look like toys. It was a part of 343 trying to wrestle Halo away from its original industrial/military aesthetic and go for more of a star trek type feel. In fact, almost every design for Halo 4 and 5 took something that was industrial, angular, and military looking, and made it more rounded and scientific looking.

When this is what you expect: https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/b6ocre/made_a_poster_of_mine_and_my_friends_spartans/

and this is what you get: https://www.halopedia.org/Fireteam_Osiris#/media/File:H5G-Fireteam_Osiris_GI.jpg

I truly think that comparing it to these guys is absolutely reasonable: https://www.gamespot.com/images/1300-3058307
Honestly, I think you could level a lot of these criticisms at Halo 3 as well for plasticy, toy-like designs. Halo's aesthetic hasn't always been Reach's gritty, dirty, bulky design.

Ultimately, this comes down to personal taste, and I certainly have my own grievances, but my hang up stemmed more from inaccurate comparisons that leaves things more confused than defined.
This was a fairly dated discussion anyway, and GEN3's showcasing seems to be a suitable mix of the various design choices of GEN1 and GEN2.
My comment in regards to Spartan-IVs is specifically in regards to their portrayal in the games.
I was originally only going to list S-IVs we've seen in the games, but when you added about the interesting lore about the previous Spartans--which would require external media--that opened the door for the other S-IVs from external media to be used as well.
Even so, I'd like to know out of: Palmer, DeMarco, Madsen, Hoya, Grant, Thorne, Locke, Vale, Tanaka, Buck, who would you consider cocky? With demonstrable examples.
And yes, so far they have *all* seemed cocky and unprofessional in the games. Particularly fireteam Osiris,
...wut? I'm going to be blunt here, how in the world did you come to this conclusion?
All it takes is a few to put a sour taste in my mouth...
Which is why I can understand the dislike for some Spartan-IVs, but to discard them wholesale is rather shortsighted. Should we hold the Spartan-IIs to the same standard? I don't think Grey team nor Black team paints the S-IIs in a particularly upstanding light, yet exceptions are made for them.
The Spartan-IVs aren't a hivemind and, out of all the Spartan generations, have the widest range of personalities, so it always strikes me as odd when people claim they all act the same.
fundamentally the lore around the Spartan IVs is pretty lame compared to S-III or S-II.
People who fought through the most gruesome and costly war humanity as ever seen, having to slug it out against enemies who drastically outmatch them, and picking from the best prospects of them is lame? Spartan-IVs bring their own history into the program, and it always strikes me as odd when people praise the ODSTs and the Marines for all the trials and tribulations they had to endure but then turn around and act as though they did nothing when they become Spartan-IVs.
Having Locke nearly beat Chief in a fight in 5 was very counter to the lore and was basically 343 trying to pit the old Halo against the new Halo.
It always amuses me when people claim it breaks lore while conveniently ignoring the years of lore that 343i has established that said a Spartan-IV can match a Spartan-II in armor, as well as driving home the point that Locke isn't an average Spartan-IV, hence why he's the one going after Chief.
Why people get so bent out of shape on the mere premise that a Spartan-IV can come within the realm of a Spartan-II is beyond me. Bungie pulled this stunt in Reach with Six, and I didn't see the ire then, strangely.
tL Armada wrote:
My beef with Osiris is not just being "too busy." That is a huge issue for me with most 343 designs (particularly in Guardians,) but I really do think they look like toys. It was a part of 343 trying to wrestle Halo away from its original industrial/military aesthetic and go for more of a star trek type feel. In fact, almost every design for Halo 4 and 5 took something that was industrial, angular, and military looking, and made it more rounded and scientific looking.

When this is what you expect: https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/b6ocre/made_a_poster_of_mine_and_my_friends_spartans/

and this is what you get: https://www.halopedia.org/Fireteam_Osiris#/media/File:H5G-Fireteam_Osiris_GI.jpg

I truly think that comparing it to these guys is absolutely reasonable: https://www.gamespot.com/images/1300-3058307
Honestly, I think you could level a lot of these criticisms at Halo 3 as well for plasticy, toy-like designs. Halo's aesthetic hasn't always been Reach's gritty, dirty, bulky design.

Ultimately, this comes down to personal taste, and I certainly have my own grievances, but my hang up stemmed more from inaccurate comparisons that leaves things more confused than defined.
This was a fairly dated discussion anyway, and GEN3's showcasing seems to be a suitable mix of the various design choices of GEN1 and GEN2.
My comment in regards to Spartan-IVs is specifically in regards to their portrayal in the games.
I was originally only going to list S-IVs we've seen in the games, but when you added about the interesting lore about the previous Spartans--which would require external media--that opened the door for the other S-IVs from external media to be used as well.
Even so, I'd like to know out of: Palmer, DeMarco, Madsen, Hoya, Grant, Thorne, Locke, Vale, Tanaka, Buck, who would you consider cocky? With demonstrable examples.
And yes, so far they have *all* seemed cocky and unprofessional in the games. Particularly fireteam Osiris,
...wut? I'm going to be blunt here, how in the world did you come to this conclusion?
All it takes is a few to put a sour taste in my mouth...
Which is why I can understand the dislike for some Spartan-IVs, but to discard them wholesale is rather shortsighted. Should we hold the Spartan-IIs to the same standard? I don't think Grey team nor Black team paints the S-IIs in a particularly upstanding light, yet exceptions are made for them.
The Spartan-IVs aren't a hivemind and, out of all the Spartan generations, have the widest range of personalities, so it always strikes me as odd when people claim they all act the same.
fundamentally the lore around the Spartan IVs is pretty lame compared to S-III or S-II.
People who fought through the most gruesome and costly war humanity as ever seen, having to slug it out against enemies who drastically outmatch them, and picking from the best prospects of them is lame? Spartan-IVs bring their own history into the program, and it always strikes me as odd when people praise the ODSTs and the Marines for all the trials and tribulations they had to endure but then turn around and act as though they did nothing when they become Spartan-IVs.
Having Locke nearly beat Chief in a fight in 5 was very counter to the lore and was basically 343 trying to pit the old Halo against the new Halo.
It always amuses me when people claim it breaks lore while conveniently ignoring the years of lore that 343i has established that said a Spartan-IV can match a Spartan-II in armor, as well as driving home the point that Locke isn't an average Spartan-IV, hence why he's the one going after Chief.
Why people get so bent out of shape on the mere premise that a Spartan-IV can come within the realm of a Spartan-II is beyond me. Bungie pulled this stunt in Reach with Six, and I didn't see the ire then, strangely.
I think the 4's are portrayed as being cocky partly just because of the way they are initially presented... by Halo 4 they've already been around for years, and they were presented as though they were already a proven part of the lore. In Spartan Ops, I felt like your fire team acting cocky was a key and repeating theme, I don't really have the time or interest to go back and find specific examples. In the campaign though, I felt that bits like this: "We come a long way together. A long way yet to go. Let's make a good jump, like we mean to and handle fools like we need to. And may Buck buy the first round when we get back" weren't something I would expect SPARTAN-IIs to ever say and seemed pretty cocky and unprofessional. I'll just give a little giggle about the "is Buck cocky?" question.

As for your last point, the idea that 343 has established lore claiming a SPARTAN-IV could match a SPARTAN-II if they're both wearing armor doesn't really make sense. They were trained longer and had more drastic enhancements, its only logical to think that armor would give them all a similar boost, and the SPARTAN-IIs would still have a clear advantage. Everything I've seen in the lore points to that. When Bungie introduced the idea of SPARTAN-IIIs in Ghosts of Onyx, I found the dynamic between them and the original Spartans very interesting. When 343 took over they clearly wanted their own group of Spartans so they came up with the IV's, and as much as I want to like them, I don't think they've made them compelling or interesting... in the writing I see 343 trying to assert their new characters as "challengers" to the originals (i.e. Hunt the Truth.)That's just my opinion. Clearly popular opinion was against them, so in Infinite we're playing as an S2.
Show me a real soldier that hasn't had a bit of cocky banter within their own unit. These aren't ambassadors sent by the UNSC to have diplomatic talks with an enemy force, they are soldiers surrounded by constant life-threatening risk; a strong confidence is imperative. And yes, that can easily cross into cocky, so what?? If having a bit of a cocky attitude is what it takes to keep themselves psyched in the face of death, who am I to tell them to knock it off. Cocky is better than afraid and dead.
tL Armada wrote:
I think the 4's are portrayed as being cocky partly just because of the way they are initially presented... by Halo 4 they've already been around for years, and they were presented as though they were already a proven part of the lore.
At that point in Halo's story, the Spartan-IVs were around for years. In the many years gap between Halo 3 and Chief waking up at Requiem the Spartan-IV program had taken off. I don't see how that in any way asserts them as being cocky. Established, not cocky.
It's at least no worse than Bungie dropping Spartan-IIIs on us for Reach. No explanation, no primer, just them.
In Spartan Ops, I felt like your fire team acting cocky was a key and repeating theme, I don't really have the time or interest to go back and find specific examples.
Not really. Madsen and DeMarco mouthed off to one another in Majestic's introduction, then DeMarco tried hitting on the first woman he saw, and got his comeuppance. Then Hoya decided to go all Rambo and nearly died for it. These all occurred within the first two episodes. Afterwards, they got their act together and conducted themselves better.
And that's not even mentioning Thorne and Grant, who weren't anywhere near their teammate's undesirable antics.
In the campaign though, I felt that bits like this: "We come a long way together. A long way yet to go. Let's make a good jump, like we mean to and handle fools like we need to. And may Buck buy the first round when we get back" weren't something I would expect SPARTAN-IIs to ever say and seemed pretty cocky and unprofessional. I'll just give a little giggle about the "is Buck cocky?" question.
I mean, you shouldn't expect Spartan-IVs to talk like Spartan-IIs. Completely different upbringings and all that. With that said, I don't see how Tanaka giving a little pep talk to try to ease the tension as they're about to jump into a heavily fortified stronghold is anything near being cocky. Is camaraderie between teammates unprofessional now?

Are you giggling at the question as though Buck is cocky? He's jaded, firm--yet caring--and sarcastic, but being overly confident in himself? I can't say I see that.

What about Locke and Vale?
As for your last point, the idea that 343 has established lore claiming a SPARTAN-IV could match a SPARTAN-II if they're both wearing armor doesn't really make sense. They were trained longer and had more drastic enhancements, its only logical to think that armor would give them all a similar boost, and the SPARTAN-IIs would still have a clear advantage.
GEN2 is specifically calibrated and designed to enhance the less potent augmentations of the Spartan-IVs to the point of operating as well as the Spartan-IIs. MJOLNIR armor doesn't enhance infinitely and has it's limitations. The Official Spartan Field Manual states that GEN2 doesn't really enhance the user past GEN1 specs, so Spartan-IIs aren't really seeing any further enhancement when using GEN2 while the Spartan-IVs are being brought to their level.
That's why I side-eye anyone who says a Spartan-IV can't stand against a Spartan-II (in capabilities, skill notwithstanding), because no lore has ever said that.
When Bungie introduced the idea of SPARTAN-IIIs in Ghosts of Onyx, I found the dynamic between them and the original Spartans very interesting. When 343 took over they clearly wanted their own group of Spartans so they came up with the IV's, and as much as I want to like them, I don't think they've made them compelling or interesting... in the writing I see 343 trying to assert their new characters as "challengers" to the originals (i.e. Hunt the Truth.)That's just my opinion. Clearly popular opinion was against them, so in Infinite we're playing as an S2.
I think Spartan-IVs fit perfectly well within the dynamics of the previous Spartans. The intention, from the start, was to have augmented super-soldiers. Limitations in the technology prevented adults from being successful, so children were used. We saw the advancement with the Spartan-IIIs, so the next logical step was to apply that to adults, and hence the Spartan-IVs are born. I think that alone makes them compelling enough. I think individuals like Buck's, Locke's and Tanaka's backstories make them interesting. Is it 'kidnapped/coerced as a kid'? No, but they have their own turmoil and troubles that brings something new to the table. Spartans don't need to be tethered to 'child-soldier' to have depth.
tL Armada wrote:
I think the 4's are portrayed as being cocky partly just because of the way they are initially presented... by Halo 4 they've already been around for years, and they were presented as though they were already a proven part of the lore. In Spartan Ops, I felt like your fire team acting cocky was a key and repeating theme, I don't really have the time or interest to go back and find specific examples.
You are thinking of Fireteam Majestic, the team we play in Spartan Ops is Crimson. Crimson doesn't have any dialogue or personalities because they are supposed to be the player's canon spartan-IV. Their actions on Requiem show that they are among the most professional spartans in the franchise. As for Majestic, only two spartans, Demarco and Madsen, fit the "fratboy" trope that many fans mistakenly associate with all the IVs (I will say, they redeemed Demarco in the comics, there he is a much better character and has a truly heroic death). The rest of Majestic are fine, especially Grant and Thorne. Spartan Grant is a perfect bridge between the spartan and human aspects of the S-IV program and Spartan Thorne of Majestic demonstrates a very level headed personality that would be expected from a II. As for the IVs as a whole, there's only been about 4 that are considered "fratboyish", this is only 4 out of more than 500 S-IVs.
tL Armada wrote:
In the campaign though, I felt that bits like this: "We come a long way together. A long way yet to go. Let's make a good jump, like we mean to and handle fools like we need to. And may Buck buy the first round when we get back" weren't something I would expect SPARTAN-IIs to ever say and seemed pretty cocky and unprofessional.
is that line bad writing? yes. And its not something that would be normally said by a II. But it is not all unprofessional or cocky. Unprofessional and cocky would be Palmer saying talking down to a marine and saying "I know your not a spartan, spartans don't miss" or Emile taunting a member of his own team and being outright hostile towards that team member for trying to comfort a civilian. Tanaka's dialogue is simply just someone trying to give a pep talk to to people that they know (albeit, coming off a bit awkward and cringeworthy. again, bad writing). Interestingly, characters like Emile ( a S-III) and the members Grey Team (a team of S-IIs) have quite a bit of cocky and unprofessional dialogue and behavior, but this hasn't stopped them from being loved by fans.
tL Armada wrote:
As for your last point, the idea that 343 has established lore claiming a SPARTAN-IV could match a SPARTAN-II if they're both wearing armor doesn't really make sense. They were trained longer and had more drastic enhancements, its only logical to think that armor would give them all a similar boost, and the SPARTAN-IIs would still have a clear advantage.
Yes, a IV should not be able to out match a II. however, this does not mean the IVs are push overs. Before they became spartans, the IVs were from all branches of the UNSC's armed forces, where they were trained to fight and become warriors. Then they had to fight against the covenant for the fate of humanity (all with out power armor and advanced augmentations). following the war, they continued to fight against covenant remnants, insurrectionists, forerunners and whatever happens to threaten humanity. after being hand picked for their actions enter the spartan program, they undergo training again by spartan IIs and IIIs. by the time a new spartan-IV enters active duty, they already have decades of training and combat experience. While they may be lacking in raw strength due to augmentation differences, they make up for it in outstanding creativity and resourcefulness, traits that the Master Chief himself is stated as finding admirable in the IVs. But the raw strength and speed of a II would make it a close, but ultimately futile fight.

as for the training that each generation received:
The IIs were trained to fight humans
The IIIs were trained to fight humans and covenant
The IVs were trained to fight humans, covenant, forerunner enemies, and the flood
tL Armada wrote:
When Bungie introduced the idea of SPARTAN-IIIs in Ghosts of Onyx, I found the dynamic between them and the original Spartans very interesting. When 343 took over they clearly wanted their own group of Spartans so they came up with the IV's, and as much as I want to like them, I don't think they've made them compelling or interesting... in the writing I see 343 trying to assert their new characters as "challengers" to the originals (i.e. Hunt the Truth.)That's just my opinion. Clearly popular opinion was against them, so in Infinite we're playing as an S2.
the main problem with the main/named IVs is that they suffer from poor writing. in the books and comics and the mobile games, the IVs are great, almost being on par with the writing of the IIs and IIIs. But not everyone reads the books and comics, and a large majority only know the IVs from the games, and of the ones from the games fans only focus on the IVs that aren't good, namely Palmer and Locke, leading to the inaccurate mindset of S-IVs being either unprofessional or boring.

343 didn't actually create the IVs to replace or challenge the older generations of spartans. while in lore, yes, they do sort of replace the older generations, but that is because the UNSC is still in need of super soldiers, especially since most of the IIs and IIIs are dead. 343's purpose for the IVs is to be the players' spartans for a canon multiplayer, and it helps to give a reason for there now being so many spartans in the canon multiplayer when so many spartans are KIA.

as for Infinite, its not likely the the multiplayer spartans are going to be IIs (again, most are dead) due to multiplayer being canon. And considering that there are still going to be IVs in Infinite (Spartans Griffin and Stone) it would make sense for IVs to still be in the multiplayer. However, this does not mean that players can only play as IVs in the multiplayer, you may also be a III (this is more of an up to interpretation thing, as in 343 isn't explicitly stating the the infinite multiplayer spartans are only IVs, and there are certainly quite a few surviving IIIs. so you could claim that your spartan is a III without any issue). Both IIIs and IVs are now now using the new Gen-3 armor platform, and spartans of both generations are generally the same hight and build so it would still fit well within canon
tL Armada wrote:
I think the 4's are portrayed as being cocky partly just because of the way they are initially presented... by Halo 4 they've already been around for years, and they were presented as though they were already a proven part of the lore. In Spartan Ops, I felt like your fire team acting cocky was a key and repeating theme, I don't really have the time or interest to go back and find specific examples.
You are thinking of Fireteam Majestic, the team we play in Spartan Ops is Crimson. Crimson doesn't have any dialogue or personalities because they are supposed to be the player's canon spartan-IV. Their actions on Requiem show that they are among the most professional spartans in the franchise. As for Majestic, only two spartans, Demarco and Madsen, fit the "fratboy" trope that many fans mistakenly associate with all the IVs (I will say, they redeemed Demarco in the comics, there he is a much better character and has a truly heroic death). The rest of Majestic are fine, especially Grant and Thorne. Spartan Grant is a perfect bridge between the spartan and human aspects of the S-IV program and Spartan Thorne of Majestic demonstrates a very level headed personality that would be expected from a II. As for the IVs as a whole, there's only been about 4 that are considered "fratboyish", this is only 4 out of more than 500 S-IVs.
tL Armada wrote:
In the campaign though, I felt that bits like this: "We come a long way together. A long way yet to go. Let's make a good jump, like we mean to and handle fools like we need to. And may Buck buy the first round when we get back" weren't something I would expect SPARTAN-IIs to ever say and seemed pretty cocky and unprofessional.
is that line bad writing? yes. And its not something that would be normally said by a II. But it is not all unprofessional or cocky. Unprofessional and cocky would be Palmer saying talking down to a marine and saying "I know your not a spartan, spartans don't miss" or Emile taunting a member of his own team and being outright hostile towards that team member for trying to comfort a civilian. Tanaka's dialogue is simply just someone trying to give a pep talk to to people that they know (albeit, coming off a bit awkward and cringeworthy. again, bad writing). Interestingly, characters like Emile ( a S-III) and the members Grey Team (a team of S-IIs) have quite a bit of cocky and unprofessional dialogue and behavior, but this hasn't stopped them from being loved by fans.
tL Armada wrote:
As for your last point, the idea that 343 has established lore claiming a SPARTAN-IV could match a SPARTAN-II if they're both wearing armor doesn't really make sense. They were trained longer and had more drastic enhancements, its only logical to think that armor would give them all a similar boost, and the SPARTAN-IIs would still have a clear advantage.
Yes, a IV should not be able to out match a II. however, this does not mean the IVs are push overs. Before they became spartans, the IVs were from all branches of the UNSC's armed forces, where they were trained to fight and become warriors. Then they had to fight against the covenant for the fate of humanity (all with out power armor and advanced augmentations). following the war, they continued to fight against covenant remnants, insurrectionists, forerunners and whatever happens to threaten humanity. after being hand picked for their actions enter the spartan program, they undergo training again by spartan IIs and IIIs. by the time a new spartan-IV enters active duty, they already have decades of training and combat experience. While they may be lacking in raw strength due to augmentation differences, they make up for it in outstanding creativity and resourcefulness, traits that the Master Chief himself is stated as finding admirable in the IVs. But the raw strength and speed of a II would make it a close, but ultimately futile fight.

as for the training that each generation received:
The IIs were trained to fight humans
The IIIs were trained to fight humans and covenant
The IVs were trained to fight humans, covenant, forerunner enemies, and the flood
tL Armada wrote:
When Bungie introduced the idea of SPARTAN-IIIs in Ghosts of Onyx, I found the dynamic between them and the original Spartans very interesting. When 343 took over they clearly wanted their own group of Spartans so they came up with the IV's, and as much as I want to like them, I don't think they've made them compelling or interesting... in the writing I see 343 trying to assert their new characters as "challengers" to the originals (i.e. Hunt the Truth.)That's just my opinion. Clearly popular opinion was against them, so in Infinite we're playing as an S2.
the main problem with the main/named IVs is that they suffer from poor writing. in the books and comics and the mobile games, the IVs are great, almost being on par with the writing of the IIs and IIIs. But not everyone reads the books and comics, and a large majority only know the IVs from the games, and of the ones from the games fans only focus on the IVs that aren't good, namely Palmer and Locke, leading to the inaccurate mindset of S-IVs being either unprofessional or boring.

343 didn't actually create the IVs to replace or challenge the older generations of spartans. while in lore, yes, they do sort of replace the older generations, but that is because the UNSC is still in need of super soldiers, especially since most of the IIs and IIIs are dead. 343's purpose for the IVs is to be the players' spartans for a canon multiplayer, and it helps to give a reason for there now being so many spartans in the canon multiplayer when so many spartans are KIA.

as for Infinite, its not likely the the multiplayer spartans are going to be IIs (again, most are dead) due to multiplayer being canon. And considering that there are still going to be IVs in Infinite (Spartans Griffin and Stone) it would make sense for IVs to still be in the multiplayer. However, this does not mean that players can only play as IVs in the multiplayer, you may also be a III (this is more of an up to interpretation thing, as in 343 isn't explicitly stating the the infinite multiplayer spartans are only IVs, and there are certainly quite a few surviving IIIs. so you could claim that your spartan is a III without any issue). Both IIIs and IVs are now now using the new Gen-3 armor platform, and spartans of both generations are generally the same hight and build so it would still fit well within canon
Thanks for the response. Fair point about Emile, although I didn't personally really like Emile that much. I think that the extra augmentations explained in Ghosts of Onyx explain that fairly well. I'm open to the idea of Spartan-IVs, they just haven't yet proved their place to me. I'm hopeful that in Infinite they will be portrayed in a more industrial/militaristic way (as the armor coatings suggest,) and I think with some good writing, a lot of S4 characters from Halo 4 and 5 could become more interesting/key parts of the game.