Old Gen Console Versions should be Cancelled

People need to realize this isn't just about graphics.

Take a look at Destiny for a moment, when the PS3/360 were dropped the size and scale of the content went up. What we got in the Rise of Iron expansion wasn't previously possible with the console gen before it holding it back.

If the Xbone isn't dropped now there's going to be an eventual split off but all the content from now until that point is going to be held back due to outdated hardware.

Previous gen needs to be dropped from the get go.

I think I'm going to quote myself here real quick:

Quote:

Well, in normal multiplayer it shouldn't be an issue frankly! But everything above 900p/30 in single player without any clear cuts is asking too much imho. Even for a straigt forward shooter! ;)

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That said my dear good folks, Xone can run Crysis, Far Cry and Metro Exodus. Saying the Xone can't handle Hi like so many are claiming is pure nonsense imho. Cyberpunk is a buggy mess, sure, but my old rig with its Radeon HD 7800 series can run it. No raytracing obviously, ridiculous loading time, I've to played windowed 900p to keep more or less 30 fps, the city is empty, shadows are boxy and so on. It's not a nice experience, but it's the exact same experience of most Xone FAT titles and miles ahead to the console versions when you think about it.

CDPR clearly hasn't prioritized the XBox/PS ports, but that card is equivalent to a Xone GPU and can run the game without hick-up (or at least the same hick-ups I see on my RTX Quadro 4000, but that's because CP itself wasn't ready at launch). So why shouldn't Hi be capable to do the same as long as it runs on a machines with the same architecture as a SX? Even though the specs are out of date, we are still talking about x86-64 bit architectures here. If it had some weird function that only a SSD for instance could handle than yes, it would be a different story, Hi's development however was handled during the eight gen, so there won't be any function related to new tech at launch aside graphical features like ray-tracing. You get the experience of a decade ago, I hope that's a given, but you will be able to play Hi on a Xone FAT/S for sure! And all this without restricting anything on the SX version.

At the beginning there was also a discussion about H5 hitting 1080p/60 on Xone, but I might add that was only possible due to some serious cuts on lighting, AI, physics and models quality, which to this day I don't believe was worth in campaign. MP? Yes, that was the right move, but SP suffered from it. They should have at least gave the player the choice between graphical fidelity and framerate, but pushing so many frames on a console build around 30 fps in mind was and still is crazy in my books. If you don't demand that much out a ten years old console, than Hi should and (now thanks to delay) will run properly on a Xone FAT/S. I've got no doubts about it!

If you wanna tell me that they might drop support down the lines because of some new fancy feature that requires a SSD I'm all ears and I would agree with you guys! For the rest and for what the game is right now based on the few info-drops we got? There is no reason to believe the game should be cancelled for older consoles nor would it impact the performance of the SX/S and PC versions either.

As a side note, CP2077 is a different story. Different development, different focus on gameplay, different setting (city environments with that level of detail are way harder to handle than natural open spaces, unless Hi surprises us with a jungle or woods filled with trees and plant-live - which I doubt), different engine build around different in-game targets and CP uses PC as its main platform as well. That's not comparable at all! And like I already said in my quote, PCs with Xone FAT/S equivalent hardware have way less issues running the game anyway already. The issue is purely on CDPR console optimization side of things and you shouldn't think that Halo will end like this, it's a false equivalent for many reasons. So don't worry too much! 😜

commando544 wrote:

Nadekill1379 wrote:

Sparhawk122 wrote:

After Cyberpunk 2077, it pushes to the forefront an issue of developing new gen games on last gen consoles. (Which in my opinion contradicts the point of new gen in the first place)

Last gen console versions should be ditched so as they do not hamper/cripple the potential of new gen games.

Due to old gen hardware it can limit game development in regards to these main points:

1. Size of mission areas.
2. How assets are loaded into the game and how quickly. aka LOD, draw distance. Example, games designed to also be played on old hardware have serious issues with object and texture pop in.
3. How many enemies/friendlies can be on screen at once including particles, explosions, vehicles etc.
4. How advanced the AI of enemies and allies alike can be. Example, better AI is more CPU intensive and thus will have to be dumbed down for older hardware support.
5. Corpse and item persistency. Example how long dead enemies/friendlies and dropped weapons or vehicle wrecks stay in the gameworld before disappearing. Older hardware will have it so the game will have items and corpses disappearing very fast. So sadly no backtracking for dropped weapon pick-ups. And no battlefields littered with dead enemies to help add to the immersion that you are in an actual war. You may have noticed how the Brute drop pods in the Halo: Infinite July gameplay near instantaneously disappeared from the gameworld. Yeah designed for old gen console hardware.

To wrap this up I would also like to add that for a game that they want to last "10 years". It's going to be hard to support this game on old gen consoles for another additional 10 years when by the time this game releases the old gen hardware will be verging on 9 years old. This will also limit how good the additional content can be that is added to the game over the 10 years live service period when old gen consoles still need to be able to play it.

Thoughts?

Absolutely the -Yoink- not. Besides, halo infinite is literally a current gen (last gen) game. Why the actual -Yoink- should they cancel xbox one version?
Before you answer that question, I know exactly what half of you will say: "Cyberpunk is the perfect example of why" or something along those lines. Cyberpunk and Halo Infinite are completely different games. If you want the series X version, good for you, enjoy the slightly improved graphics which is all the series x offers, but I really dont want to spend an extra 300-500 dollars for any game, and I am sure most people feel the same. If you want the series x version, worry about that, dont worry about the majority of us who still want the box one version.

They are going to drop the XB1 version eventually as they will run out of space or simply be too bottlenecked to continue with better content, easier just to start fresh with a powerful console.

Maybe in about 3 years once they fix all the problems (which there are plenty) with the new consoles, maybe then it'll be worth buying a new one, but right now, I have absolutely no reason to buy a new console. But anyway back to halo, Infinite is a xbox one gen game so no reason to cancel the version that runs on the console it is designed for, DLC will run on the exact same engine as the game, so no reason they won't be xbox one either. And the majority of us still don't have series x/s nor have any desire to spend 300-500 dollars just for halo and a few other games which may well brick the -Yoinking!- console within a week.

In the explanation at the time of HALO WARS 2, they have a weak CPU power of XBOX ONE
I said that I can't draw at 60fps even on XBOX ONE X.
As a result, HALOW ARS 2 is the most powerful console
XBOX series X also runs at 30fps or less.
This is a critical defect ...
With that in mind, to become the best of HALO
At HALO INFINITE, I think it's better to concentrate on XBOX SS and SX.
I like consoles
Even if you delay the PC version, I want you to make a perfect version for XBOX SS and SX first.

Darwi wrote:

Depends what the game is pushing in terms of next gen.

If it's just graphics stuff such as resolution, frame rates, and some ray tracing tricks etc... that's fine. They can then release the game on the lower consoles at 1080p, 30fps, and basic lighting. Everyone is happy!

But if the new game is trying to be next gen in terms of numbers of enemies, open world scope, or AI enhancements... and these don't translate back to the lower end consoles (ie the CPU and GPU don't have the grunt)... then it is time to cut the umbilical cord.

It is about time we are due for a big improvement in AI and scope of battles on screen at anyone time.

Because we seem to be stagnating in regards to those aspects of game design. That I am sure I am not the only one annoyed by this.

How good would it be having a squad of more then 3-6 marines battle alongside you. How about 20? Or how about 40 vehicles in just one battle on the same map... Maybe even friendly AI that have gone to basic and even cross country driving school. Or even more destructible environments.

Can't have any of this if the game still needs to be able to be played on 8 year old console hardware.

It's a shame Halo: Infinite will be crippled. And I do not see it lasting 10 years.

Darwi wrote:

Sparhawk122 wrote:

How good would it be having a squad of more then 3-6 marines battle alongside you. How about 20? Or how about 40 vehicles in just one battle on the same map... Maybe even friendly AI that have gone to basic and even cross country driving school. Or even more destructible environments.

Can't have any of this if the game still needs to be able to be played on 8 year old console hardware.

It's a shame Halo: Infinite will be crippled. And I do not see it lasting 10 years.

The slack we have to cut is that first gen games rarely realise the potential of a new console - either from the CPU or (particularly) the GPU.

It takes times for the developers to get their heads around the new architecture. And MS are still furiously adding features to the API.

So it may make sense to temper the pressure on Infinite's first serving... and look to ramp it up with the next big update.

It is supposed to last 10 years. No more mainline Halo entries for that period of time. Of which another generation of new consoles will have released.

I thought the whole point of the new engine was ease-of-use and, more importantly, scalability? in which case, they can just release a visually and mechanically stripped-back version on Xbone and drop support for it after 2-3 years while the other versions take it the rest of the way.

I doubt a new Halo is going to have anything that's too demanding for 720p 50-60fps on the Xbox One like destructible environments or tons of volumetric effects.

Sparhawk122 wrote:

Rickygforce wrote:

I thought the whole point of the new engine was ease-of-use and, more importantly, scalability? in which case, they can just release a visually and mechanically stripped-back version on Xbone and drop support for it after 2-3 years while the other versions take it the rest of the way.

I doubt a new Halo is going to have anything that's too demanding for 720p 50-60fps on the Xbox One like destructible environments or tons of volumetric effects.

It will not. Because the old hardware would not be able to handle it. So Halo: Infinite will not be new gen. It will be more of the same with somewhat improved graphics. 6 years worth for development?

Six years is probably a push.

And pretty much every game at the moment is more of the same with improved graphics.

It takes a cycle or two before a new console shows it's true colours. So I don't think anyone should have expected a launch game to define a new generation. Hell, Microsoft have only just added some formal API's for ray-tracing - the platform is far from matured. I would be looking to Infinites first major campaign extension (DLC or whatever they end up calling it) in about 12 to 18 months to start to show off the Series X.

eviltedi wrote:

No. Halo Infinite only went into the story planning stages in 2015. It was still known as Halo 6 at that time, they also had to build the SlipSpace engine. I think this year should not be considered as a full development year either because of Covid. Add to that the changes at 343i and it's more problems.

Yep. What they said.

Just look at how few next-gen projects there are for either of the two new consoles. Either for release or early next year. All the devs are a fair way behind the eight ball - hence both Microsoft and Sony heavily pushing the back catalogue improvements.

Nadekill1379 wrote:

Maybe in about 3 years once they fix all the problems (which there are plenty) with the new consoles, maybe then it'll be worth buying a new one, but right now, I have absolutely no reason to buy a new console. But anyway back to halo, Infinite is a xbox one gen game so no reason to cancel the version that runs on the console it is designed for, DLC will run on the exact same engine as the game, so no reason they won't be xbox one either. And the majority of us still don't have series x/s nor have any desire to spend 300-500 dollars just for halo and a few other games which may well brick the -Yoinking!- console within a week.

From what we could gather - which admittingly isn't much, I have to go with some wage dev description and leak here - Slipspace is a spaghetti codding mess, but one that it's easy to use, dynamic and build with new tech in mind. Xone and SX/S run on the same architecture, so I've no doubt about Hi running smoothly on the old gen. That however doesn't eliminate the possibility for future DLC to introduce features that the old hardware just can't handle:

• high detail vegetation (which was showcased in the demo mind you)
• complex AI routines with a plateau of NPCs on screen, something we lost since 343i took over (could be solved by cutting the number or routine complexity on older gens though and those AI were already scalable in Reach)
• multiple levels loading in real time at the same time (like portals, imagine a dimensional rift with a completely different level in which you can see a in-game battle going on while still moving in another level - only really possible with an SSD)
• geometry pipeline is scalable, but scalability has its limits - especially when it comes to hitboxes
• Raytracing and dynamic lightning is feature that can be (sadly) sacrificed, especially in a action shooter, but global illumination might be another story

And so on!

Hi will certainly be supported for the first few years on Xone, MP and the first campaign as long as the servers stay online I would say! That doesn't mean future DLCs have to run on Xone as well though. Remember, Hi and the Slipspace engine are just platforms, containers for Halo content for the next decade! It wouldn't be wise to limit Halo's future possibilities. IF such features make sense to be implemented in Halo in first place of course. I wouldn't recommend to dropping a huge installment base like the Xone has just for some insignificant gimmick either.

And what's the fuss about bricking the console in a week anyhow? 🤨🤔

Danlight6999 wrote:

People need to realize this isn't just about graphics.

Take a look at Destiny for a moment, when the PS3/360 were dropped the size and scale of the content went up. What we got in the Rise of Iron expansion wasn't previously possible with the console gen before it holding it back.

If the Xbone isn't dropped now there's going to be an eventual split off but all the content from now until that point is going to be held back due to outdated hardware.

Previous gen needs to be dropped from the get go.

The question is WHAT is going to be hold back. If we're not talking about graphics, than we're talking size, complexity and systems. Size never was an issue for the Xone, complexity might be scalable (NPC density and AI are scalable, game related physics are not) and the only thing that could hold back systems are HDD. When it comes to complexity we have to ask ourselves if 343i is even willing to focus their efforts in this regards in first place. Xone is more capable than the X360, but since H4 AI routines have been cut rather than added. SSD based systems might be relative as well due to the genre of the game itself. What system can you implement that a Xone can't handle and that isn't just a Pokémon kind of gimmick that won't really impact the experience in first place? A living breathing city-world in a RPG for instance has quite different demands than a action based FPS, and Halo is an arena shooter at its core (or at least it should be, seems more like Far Cry style twitch shooter right now, but that doesn't change anything on a software-hardware level).

There certainly are more advanced software features that demands more powerful hardware, I even made a list in the first half of this very comment, but at the same time we're talking about two machines of the same architecture. Xone might very well be the first console of this new "Series" line, or maybe its prototype if you so wish. Aside of raw power, this ain't the same jump as we had between the 7th and 8th gen though, that's for sure! So before saying the Xone is holding back the SX, maybe we should ask ourselves if it's not the other way around. Because yes, there are advancements in technology that only the SX/S can handle, but their implementation must also make sense in the game in first place.

Another factor many aren't considering is how willing the dev is to focus their efforts in those new features in first place. 343i has shown me that they rather push graphics and RES over AI and physics for instance, even though they had more horse-power to work with. Why should that change on the SX, 9th gen exclusivity or not? Or what feature are we exactly talking about that can't be scaled down and as such would limit the SX experience in first place? I'm throwing this question around on this treads for well over a year now, but I'm still waiting for an answer! 🤷🏻‍♀️

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TLDR: There are indeed features that a Xone can't handle and that would hold back the SX/S, but you won't find them in a multiplayer based FPS. Only reasonable exception I can think of would be enemy AI routines, something 343i has shown me they don't care about anyway. Twice.