Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

Pace of multiplayer has been dropping

OP wallace121215

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Does anyone else feel like the pace of the combat loop consistently went down over each Halo game? At least for the more experienced players.

For ranged combat, both H1 and H2 had three shot kills with your default weapon if you were skilled enough. In H1, it’s one, two, headshot. In H2, it’s one, two, doubleshot. Both require a lot of skill to do consistently but are very satisfying to pull off. H3 removed that and made it always take four shots, pretty sure H4 is the same way. Here’s hoping Infinite has a three shot kill primary weapon but only if you’re skilled enough.

Up close and personal is also annoyingly slow in later Halos. In both H1 and H2, if someone ambushed you up close, if you are skilled enough you could instant-kill that player and it feels SOOO satisfying to pull off. In H3, it seems that just whoever has the faster melee weapon and frame-perfect inputs is gonna win a boxing match. Boring. If you look at old tournaments with teams like Final Boss, the most hype parts were always a clutch BXR. On stream, I’m always the loudest after double-meleeing someone who thought they got the drop on me.

Halo, at the time was actually one of the slower paced games: compared to unreal or quake for example. But it still has an element if speed, I feel like they tried to make it faster by adding the run ability but it had the opposite effect. I only really use run to DISengage when I need to reload or am one shot. Am I just missing some tricks for later games or am I correct that the focus on removing button glitches has made everything slower? Halo Infinite needs to make the gunplay faster.
Am I just missing some tricks for later games or am I correct that the focus on removing button glitches has made everything slower? Halo Infinite needs to make the gunplay faster.
No you're not missing anything, Halo moved away from "fast & fluid" gameplay to a more gimmicky gameplay with sprint and pokemon attacks, apparently they believe this is required to appeal to gamers these days.
Being someone who played and appreciates both, I think they can make a compromise. Maybe keep modern as standard, while bringing back the classic style as a barebones classic kind of game mode?
Halo should definitely aim for gunplay more like that of CE with a utlity weapon that has a fast optimal kill time, but which is difficult enough to use that the optimal kill time is hard to come close to in practice.

Button combinations are unlikely to return in any form, since I don't believe developers have warmed up to the concept of past glitches as future gameplay mechanics over the past few years any more than the community has.

Being someone who played and appreciates both, I think they can make a compromise. Maybe keep modern as standard, while bringing back the classic style as a barebones classic kind of game mode?
This doesn't work. In practice, this means that the classic mode would play poorly since everything else such as maps and weapon balance in the game has been designed around the main gameplay. If that's not enough, then making it just a place in the corner for classic fans to play in definitely sends the message "we want you to play; we just don't care about you". To me it seems like a more disrespectful move than just ignoring classic fans altogether. Being honest about not caring is definitely better than pretending to care.
tsassi wrote:
Halo should definitely aim for gunplay more like that of CE with a utlity weapon that has a fast optimal kill time, but which is difficult enough to use that the optimal kill time is hard to come close to in practice.

Button combinations are unlikely to return in any form, since I don't believe developers have warmed up to the concept of past glitches as future gameplay mechanics over the past few years any more than the community has.

Being someone who played and appreciates both, I think they can make a compromise. Maybe keep modern as standard, while bringing back the classic style as a barebones classic kind of game mode?
This doesn't work. In practice, this means that the classic mode would play poorly since everything else such as maps and weapon balance in the game has been designed around the main gameplay. If that's not enough, then making it just a place in the corner for classic fans to play in definitely sends the message "we want you to play; we just don't care about you". To me it seems like a more disrespectful move than just ignoring classic fans altogether. Being honest about not caring is definitely better than pretending to care.
They could make it more of a side think, like you can play either and have enough to keep you going. I’m sure they could manage balancing the guns for that mode separately.

I really just want to try and satisfy both communities though I know it’s nearly impossible
They could make it more of a side think, like you can play either and have enough to keep you going. I’m sure they could manage balancing the guns for that mode separately.

I really just want to try and satisfy both communities though I know it’s nearly impossible
But that's the thing, if you make it a side thing, it sends exactly the message "we want to keep you around, but we can't be bothered give you what you actually want", which in my opinion is more insulting than simply letting go and going full modern.

You can't satisfy everyone, and further more, in attempting to satisfy everyone there are various pitfalls that are just rubbing salt on people's wounds. This is one of the cases where I'm strongly of the opinion that 343i either needs to commit fully to the modern style and just let go of classic fans, or they need to take a couple steps back and re-evaluate where they want to go. There is no middle ground where they can hope to keep on pushing modern gameplay while simultaneously managing to juggle with the feelings of classic fans.
Even between H1 and H2 the gameplay slowed down a lot. In Halo 1 are fight has two conclusions: disengagement or someone’s death. In Halo 2 it was also possible for the fight to take a pause because both your weapons are empty. If you play a mix of Halos it’s not really noticeable but if you play mostly CE then switch to 2 it’s VERY noticeable. In CE, experiences players backpack reload so we never have to stop firing.

Later Halos seems to tighten up in what they thought Halo should have been played like and ignored how people actually played it. A nice compromise would be that maybe the chiefs armor will automatically reload a stowed weapon for you. The lore writes itself: during the events of Halo CE, Chief discovered and took advantage of an exploit in his power armor that allowed it to reload his gun, so in the next suit they made it a feature.
tsassi wrote:
They could make it more of a side think, like you can play either and have enough to keep you going. I’m sure they could manage balancing the guns for that mode separately.

I really just want to try and satisfy both communities though I know it’s nearly impossible
But that's the thing, if you make it a side thing, it sends exactly the message "we want to keep you around, but we can't be bothered give you what you actually want", which in my opinion is more insulting than simply letting go and going full modern.

You can't satisfy everyone, and further more, in attempting to satisfy everyone there are various pitfalls that are just rubbing salt on people's wounds. This is one of the cases where I'm strongly of the opinion that 343i either needs to commit fully to the modern style and just let go of classic fans, or they need to take a couple steps back and re-evaluate where they want to go. There is no middle ground where they can hope to keep on pushing modern gameplay while simultaneously managing to juggle with the feelings of classic fans.
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
Unlikely, since that essentially happened nine years ago, and the franchise isn't dead. And throughout that time people have been melodramatic. First it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 4 returns to classic gameplay", then it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 5 returns to classic gameplay". But somehow here we still are.
tsassi wrote:
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
Unlikely, since that essentially happened nine years ago, and the franchise isn't dead. And throughout that time people have been melodramatic. First it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 4 returns to classic gameplay", then it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 5 returns to classic gameplay". But somehow here we still are.
But likewise many 'classic' fans are so invested in the franchise that they'll keep coming back regardless of that even though they wish the gameplay was different.

tsassi wrote:
They could make it more of a side think, like you can play either and have enough to keep you going. I’m sure they could manage balancing the guns for that mode separately.

I really just want to try and satisfy both communities though I know it’s nearly impossible
But that's the thing, if you make it a side thing, it sends exactly the message "we want to keep you around, but we can't be bothered give you what you actually want", which in my opinion is more insulting than simply letting go and going full modern.

You can't satisfy everyone, and further more, in attempting to satisfy everyone there are various pitfalls that are just rubbing salt on people's wounds. This is one of the cases where I'm strongly of the opinion that 343i either needs to commit fully to the modern style and just let go of classic fans, or they need to take a couple steps back and re-evaluate where they want to go. There is no middle ground where they can hope to keep on pushing modern gameplay while simultaneously managing to juggle with the feelings of classic fans.
I kinda agree with this. Much as I hate to admit it.... classic fans may be the historical and present backbone of the community, but Halo operates in a very competitive world and needs to keep attracting new audiences too
I disagree, I really dislike 3 shot kill and BXR. Gunplay feels perfect to me currently.
tsassi wrote:
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
Unlikely, since that essentially happened nine years ago, and the franchise isn't dead. And throughout that time people have been melodramatic. First it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 4 returns to classic gameplay", then it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 5 returns to classic gameplay". But somehow here we still are.
Is it alive though? Halo is first and foremost supposed to be a AAA multiplayer killer-application for the Xbox brand, and yet H5 was around place 25 for most of it's life-span. It dropped below 30 around six (?) months back too... R6S and GTA5o are in the top ten since release however, just by comparison. So yeah, it might not be dead, but "coma" is the description I would go for in this situation. Situation - I'm still sure about this - the franchise wouldn't be in if Halo 4 would have been a classic Halo title in MP, more open spaces and AI focused SP and supported by a better art style.

And yes, I said H4 and I also claim the downfall started seven years ago and not with Reach. I might be biased about this, but Reach was a prequel and somewhat of a spin-off. You accept huge changes more in such cases. And yet Reach manages to add new things in a more "Halo" manner than the next main chapter did and also felt a lot less "off the rails" than H4 all together.

That's a big "IMHO" of course, but the moment Halo dipped into the Call of Duty waters it went downhill, fast.
Is it alive though? Halo is first and foremost supposed to be a AAA multiplayer killer-application for the Xbox brand, and yet H5 was around place 25 for most of it's life-span. It dropped below 30 around six (?) months back too... R6S and GTA5o are in the top ten since release however, just by comparison. So yeah, it might not be dead, but "coma" is the description I would go for in this situation. Situation - I'm still sure about this - the franchise wouldn't be in if Halo 4 would have been a classic Halo title in MP, more open spaces and AI focused SP and supported by a better art style.
I guess that depends on your definition of "alive". But I do have to ask: are all games less popular than Halo 5 "in coma"?

In any case, it's all just imprecise, loaded terminology. Assigning Halo a figurative status of consciousness tells more about your feelings than about the present state of the game itself. Halo has undeniably become less popular than it used to be. However, at the same time, there are many developers, even developers of triple-A games, who'd consider having a community as active as that of Halo 5 a great success. Everyone is free to decide how they want to feel about these two facts.

To be honest, apart from thinking that pronouncing a game with hundreds of thousands of active players "dead" is a bit absurd, I don't actually have major issues with people who think Halo is already dead and have learned to live with that. They at least have a consistent opinion. But the people who perpetually shift the goal posts by saying "if [the next Halo] isn't like I want, then Halo is dead" but never dare to commit to anything are just fearmongering, and presumably believe it's a good tactic for getting people on their side.

The popularity of Halo has always been a secondary concern to me. After all, if I don't like the game, it doesn't matter how popular the game is, so for me it's much more important to have a game I enjoy than one that is popular. That's why I've learned to detach my preferences from my thoughts on what the game needs to do to be popular and not fool myself into thinking that the two must correlate. As far as those thoughts go, i've never seen a reason why classic Halo wouldn't work in this day in contrary to what some people say. However, unlike other people who broadly share my preferences, I also don't see a reason why classic gameplay would be the saving grace of Halo. There simply isn't evidence to support either of the two extreme theories about the impact of classic gameplay on the popularity of Halo.

And yes, I said H4 and I also claim the downfall started seven years ago and not with Reach. I might be biased about this, but Reach was a prequel and somewhat of a spin-off. You accept huge changes more in such cases. And yet Reach manages to add new things in a more "Halo" manner than the next main chapter did and also felt a lot less "off the rails" than H4 all together.

That's a big "IMHO" of course, but the moment Halo dipped into the Call of Duty waters it went downhill, fast.
If you want to give a personal pass to Reach, you're free to do so. However, that doesn't really affect what I said. Many people did say that Halo 4 was 343i's one and only chance. Of course it's useful to keep in mind that many people did share your spin-off attitude, so there was a lot of expectation prior to the gameplay reveal that Halo 4 would be a gameplay sequel to Halo 3. But as we know, Halo 4 was instead a gameplay sequel to Reach, and 343i is still making Halo games.
IMO if 343 wants to make a great Halo game, they take all the super important, and core parts of halo, and they advertise that. Heck they should actually make the gameplay triangle, an equilateral one. Split screen will already be at launch! IMO the biggest reason Halo 5 didn't do to well was because of the lack of split screen. An active player base is an absolutely wonderful achievement. And in no way is the popularity a huge problem. Halo has never been "dead", "alive" or in a "coma" as with plenty of big AAA games. Many consider BV to be a very low point in the Battlefield universe. But is it dead? Will EA cancel there fps game? No. My point is that no matter how bad a game in a AAA franchise may be compared to it's predecessors, they probably won't kill off that franchise and it will never be dead. There is no "dead" or "alive" in ongoing franchises that have support for current games or future games. If the GAME is enjoyable, then there will be players who play it. Halo 5 is a good game, though it may not be the best HALO game. But people will still play it because it's fun.
tsassi wrote:
Halo should definitely aim for gunplay more like that of CE with a utlity weapon that has a fast optimal kill time, but which is difficult enough to use that the optimal kill time is hard to come close to in practice.

Button combinations are unlikely to return in any form, since I don't believe developers have warmed up to the concept of past glitches as future gameplay mechanics over the past few years any more than the community has.

Being someone who played and appreciates both, I think they can make a compromise. Maybe keep modern as standard, while bringing back the classic style as a barebones classic kind of game mode?
This doesn't work. In practice, this means that the classic mode would play poorly since everything else such as maps and weapon balance in the game has been designed around the main gameplay. If that's not enough, then making it just a place in the corner for classic fans to play in definitely sends the message "we want you to play; we just don't care about you". To me it seems like a more disrespectful move than just ignoring classic fans altogether. Being honest about not caring is definitely better than pretending to care.
I think the H5 classic playlist (H3) in the social quickplay , proves this statement correct whilst it is a great little mode The game play is good and maps are excellent and replicates H3 quite nicely but it is very hard to get a game consistently or at all ,where as every other mode in the h5 playlist load times are pretty quick ., conversely jump on to mcc H3 and it's the king of the game modes it seems the compromised approach in the modern playspace just doesn't seem to really work .

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I actually really liked how weapons in Halo 3 (and I think Halo 2) had different melee strengths. Like the brute shot melee did more damage then say an SMG melee. I would like to see this back in Infinite.
tsassi wrote:
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
Unlikely, since that essentially happened nine years ago, and the franchise isn't dead. And throughout that time people have been melodramatic. First it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 4 returns to classic gameplay", then it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 5 returns to classic gameplay". But somehow here we still are.
30k players still are here when there used to be hundreds of thousands. There’s no way you can twist how current situation to say Halo is on the correct course. It’s seen a steady decline since reach but especially after 4
tsassi wrote:
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
Unlikely, since that essentially happened nine years ago, and the franchise isn't dead. And throughout that time people have been melodramatic. First it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 4 returns to classic gameplay", then it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 5 returns to classic gameplay". But somehow here we still are.
30k players still are here when there used to be hundreds of thousands. There’s no way you can twist how current situation to say Halo is on the correct course. It’s seen a steady decline since reach but especially after 4
I never said the popularity of Halo has not declined, and I never said Halo is on the correct course. Did you perhaps mean to quote someone else? Or are you just making a strawman?
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