Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

Pace of multiplayer has been dropping

OP wallace121215

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tsassi wrote:
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
Unlikely, since that essentially happened nine years ago, and the franchise isn't dead. And throughout that time people have been melodramatic. First it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 4 returns to classic gameplay", then it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 5 returns to classic gameplay". But somehow here we still are.
Yeah, I agree. I actually have preferred each Halo iteration the releases compared to the previous. Each iteration has improved on the last. Yes, there's been questionable choices that the community has been vocal about, but honestly, the pacing of Halo 5 with it's sandbox and maps has been dead-on since the last major TU we had. I'm hoping Infinite keeps this close because a lot of reasoning behind H2 and H3 being limited and labelled as "classic" was merely an engine limitation on what could be done.

Sprint and abilities happened because it's science fiction and super soldiers that can't run would honestly be a stupid holdback. The abilities are based on the suits we don so they are actually feasible and not too farfetch'd. I mean, they all use the thruster pack so I've always been ok with it. The sandbox is as finely tuned as I've ever seen it. I don't want any more gimmicks, but honestly, Halo 5 has been the best, with only nostalgia carrying Halo 2 & 3 around.
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
Unlikely, since that essentially happened nine years ago, and the franchise isn't dead. And throughout that time people have been melodramatic. First it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 4 returns to classic gameplay", then it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 5 returns to classic gameplay". But somehow here we still are.
30k players still are here when there used to be hundreds of thousands. There’s no way you can twist how current situation to say Halo is on the correct course. It’s seen a steady decline since reach but especially after 4
I never said the popularity of Halo has not declined, and I never said Halo is on the correct course. Did you perhaps mean to quote someone else? Or are you just making a strawman?
gameplay change is a huge reason for the decline
tsassi wrote:
if you let go of classic fans you will kill the franchise off
Unlikely, since that essentially happened nine years ago, and the franchise isn't dead. And throughout that time people have been melodramatic. First it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 4 returns to classic gameplay", then it was "Halo is dead unless Halo 5 returns to classic gameplay". But somehow here we still are.
Yeah, I agree. I actually have preferred each Halo iteration the releases compared to the previous. Each iteration has improved on the last. Yes, there's been questionable choices that the community has been vocal about, but honestly, the pacing of Halo 5 with it's sandbox and maps has been dead-on since the last major TU we had. I'm hoping Infinite keeps this close because a lot of reasoning behind H2 and H3 being limited and labelled as "classic" was merely an engine limitation on what could be done.

Sprint and abilities happened because it's science fiction and super soldiers that can't run would honestly be a stupid holdback. The abilities are based on the suits we don so they are actually feasible and not too farfetch'd. I mean, they all use the thruster pack so I've always been ok with it. The sandbox is as finely tuned as I've ever seen it. I don't want any more gimmicks, but honestly, Halo 5 has been the best, with only nostalgia carrying Halo 2 & 3 around.
The biggest thing holding H5 was it was part of the lootbox fad of video games where every game had to have some sort of card pack. Every Game. As for the Spartan abilities I get it that now we are having supersoldiers do what the NPCs could do and more, but the main difference is that they gave like every spartan ability at once. I think it would have been better if the different abilities were segmented, not just you're a spartan, you have them all. Now Reach did a little combining of two equipment from H3 (like AC and jamming) but it was not more than two. Something could be done similar, put sprint back but make a set ability not the default, and you could split sprint into 2 different kinds, one with thruster pack and one with the spartan charge. That way you get the special ability from H5 but it is not like every ability. I think that would be more in-line wiht Halo's game mode. I mean one of the first things it did to break the mold is not let you have every weapon at once, H5 spartan ability felt like they did the Doom/Quake and give you all the goodies from slot 1-0.
I'm hoping Infinite keeps this close because a lot of reasoning behind H2 and H3 being limited and labelled as "classic" was merely an engine limitation on what could be done.
[citation needed]​

It's well known that Halo 2 had a sprint animation that was cut from the final game (allegedly due to pacing issues). We also know that Halo CE had a working jetpack that was cut (see here). Unless you can find me a specific quote from a Bungie designer explicitly saying that advanced movement was not possible in classic Halo games because of engine limitations, I'm going to have to say that claim is nonsense. There is nothing about any of the advanced movement mechanics that fundamentally is limited by engine performance. They're just animations. Maybe with older animation techniques they're not going to look as polished, but that goes for any other animation, and it's not a reason a developer would drop a mechanic.

The classic Halo games are as they are because the designers made the call to not include some mechanics. But even ignoring that, "the games are the way the are only because the developers didn't do certain things" misses the point. Sure, of course they are, but that doesn't mean they aren't good design. There is this weird idea among some gamers that just because one game did some cool thing, every other game should also do that same thing. That just because a thing can be done, it should be done, and there's no room for games with unique and simple designs. Every game in a genre must succumb to the same trends. That's boring.

I may not like it when people think their personal preferences dictate what Halo needs to be popular, but you shouldn't mistake that for supporting the the current direction.
tsassi wrote:
I'm hoping Infinite keeps this close because a lot of reasoning behind H2 and H3 being limited and labelled as "classic" was merely an engine limitation on what could be done.
[citation needed]​

It's well known that Halo 2 had a sprint animation that was cut from the final game (allegedly due to pacing issues). We also know that Halo CE had a working jetpack that was cut (see here). Unless you can find me a specific quote from a Bungie designer explicitly saying that advanced movement was not possible in classic Halo games because of engine limitations, I'm going to have to say that claim is nonsense. There is nothing about any of the advanced movement mechanics that fundamentally is limited by engine performance. They're just animations. Maybe with older animation techniques they're not going to look as polished, but that goes for any other animation, and it's not a reason a developer would drop a mechanic.

The classic Halo games are as they are because the designers made the call to not include some mechanics. But even ignoring that, "the games are the way the are only because the developers didn't do certain things" misses the point. Sure, of course they are, but that doesn't mean they aren't good design. There is this weird idea among some gamers that just because one game did some cool thing, every other game should also do that same thing. That just because a thing can be done, it should be done, and there's no room for games with unique and simple designs. Every game in a genre must succumb to the same trends. That's boring.

I may not like it when people think their personal preferences dictate what Halo needs to be popular, but you shouldn't mistake that for supporting the the current direction.
Which is exactly why I've always supported Halo with each title. Yes, there's little nuances that bother players, but I learn to adapt. Halo has always been my most play series for FPS by long and far......I don't play any other shooters religiously like I do this.

I strongly agree with you on the fact that all the games are great in their own rights, and that each iteration copying the last would be boring. I like innovation. I like changes. I also thought don't like going backwards with mechanics. I can understand equipment from H3 being gone and replaced with AAs in H4 (chronologically) because H4 was War Games simulation. H5 involved different worlds and thus would make sense that equipment isn't found vert often. Factions upgrade weapons, equipment, and utilities even in real life. That's why thrusters making use as abilities in H5 make sense to me. Yeah, a lot of people don't like it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't work or was thought out correctly.

I also meant pointing out the generational games from each other. CE/2 on OG Xbox had limitations based on console that it couldn't do or do nearly as well as 3, 4, or Reach. Each game was built better than the last as the console architecture was used better. Same with going from 360 to X1. There's things H5 can do that I'm sure the 360 versions of Halo can't do nearly as well or at all either. Sure, they could probably have done something to do that now, but back then these options we have available to us weren't feasible, and honestly, would've just made the games more cumbersome.

Each game does its own thing but does it well. I just don't care for the people that say we need barebones movement and gameplay. That's what CE and 2 did. Everything after is a new experience and people are just too damn stubborn and want to live in the 2/3 era. That's what MCC is for. Let's let Infinite be its own thing and not throw everything out the window simply because of nostalgia.
Halo had a unique flow that seemed slower at first when compared to fast nature of CoD. However, slow was smooth and fluid that immersed you into the battle. CoD was campy with lots of reloading. Many have mentioned before, if you had skill you had a chance at all battle encounters. I missed that aspect.
I also meant pointing out the generational games from each other. CE/2 on OG Xbox had limitations based on console that it couldn't do or do nearly as well as 3, 4, or Reach. Each game was built better than the last as the console architecture was used better. Same with going from 360 to X1. There's things H5 can do that I'm sure the 360 versions of Halo can't do nearly as well or at all either. Sure, they could probably have done something to do that now, but back then these options we have available to us weren't feasible, and honestly, would've just made the games more cumbersome.
I'm genuinely interested in what couldn't be done then, and better precised what limitations there were and in which way they limited/prevented these things which couldn't be done.
Naqser wrote:
I also meant pointing out the generational games from each other. CE/2 on OG Xbox had limitations based on console that it couldn't do or do nearly as well as 3, 4, or Reach. Each game was built better than the last as the console architecture was used better. Same with going from 360 to X1. There's things H5 can do that I'm sure the 360 versions of Halo can't do nearly as well or at all either. Sure, they could probably have done something to do that now, but back then these options we have available to us weren't feasible, and honestly, would've just made the games more cumbersome.
I'm genuinely interested in what couldn't be done then, and better precised what limitations there were and in which way they limited/prevented these things which couldn't be done.
Look at the memory and storage limitations between each game's engine. I know there's some really stupid ones, such as custom game options per game type being restricted to 16 options max in Halo 4 (may be the same with 3/Reach). H5 can have more, but I'm unsure how many exactly this build can support.

I'll try to look up some resources on it and get back to you guys on this.
I strongly agree with you on the fact that all the games are great in their own rights, and that each iteration copying the last would be boring.
But I didn't say that at all. I said that games doing things the way other games are doing is boring. In fact, contrary to what you say, I believe that for some games a level of consistency between sequels can be extremely valuable. I admire developers who can see when they have a solid gameplay foundation that doesn't need drastic alterations.

I also meant pointing out the generational games from each other. CE/2 on OG Xbox had limitations based on console that it couldn't do or do nearly as well as 3, 4, or Reach. Each game was built better than the last as the console architecture was used better. Same with going from 360 to X1. There's things H5 can do that I'm sure the 360 versions of Halo can't do nearly as well or at all either. Sure, they could probably have done something to do that now, but back then these options we have available to us weren't feasible, and honestly, would've just made the games more cumbersome.
But do you have any concrete examples of things that can be done now that couldn't in the past? In particular, can you describe a single gameplay mechanic that could not possible be implemented in anyway to an Xbox 360 game, but can to an Xbox One game, and explain why this is so? If you end up unable to provide a single concrete example, then I suggest you to reconsider your belief that gameplay design possibilities are vastly affected by available hardware.

Each game does its own thing but does it well. I just don't care for the people that say we need barebones movement and gameplay. That's what CE and 2 did. Everything after is a new experience and people are just too damn stubborn and want to live in the 2/3 era. That's what MCC is for. Let's let Infinite be its own thing and not throw everything out the window simply because of nostalgia.
Do you have a film series or a TV series you really like? If you do have one, imagine if its tone completely changed midway through, e.g., from a gritty drama to a comedy starting at season four in a TV series. Would you be upset? Can you see how someone might be upset in that situation? If you were upset, would you describe someone telling you "Stop living in the past. The series shouldn't stop innovating because of nostalgia" as an accurate assessment of the situation and why you are upset? Was anything of value lost when the tone changed, or are you just being nostalgic?
Halo 4's gunplay in the MCC favors people like me who like precision, that's why I stick to the DMR and don't use the BR
It feels a bit slower paced, but better made for players like me.
tsassi wrote:
They could make it more of a side think, like you can play either and have enough to keep you going. I’m sure they could manage balancing the guns for that mode separately.

I really just want to try and satisfy both communities though I know it’s nearly impossible
But that's the thing, if you make it a side thing, it sends exactly the message "we want to keep you around, but we can't be bothered give you what you actually want", which in my opinion is more insulting than simply letting go and going full modern.

You can't satisfy everyone, and further more, in attempting to satisfy everyone there are various pitfalls that are just rubbing salt on people's wounds. This is one of the cases where I'm strongly of the opinion that 343i either needs to commit fully to the modern style and just let go of classic fans, or they need to take a couple steps back and re-evaluate where they want to go. There is no middle ground where they can hope to keep on pushing modern gameplay while simultaneously managing to juggle with the feelings of classic fans.
I would add to this that the fans who like the classic style are more likely to be a quality, hard core fan base because the game gives them something they can't find anywhere else. The fan base that likes the new style are bandwagon players, they are more likely to hop to other popular games and don't have the attention span or desire to play classic style games. 343 focused on the wrong demographic of players while barely acknowledging the base that supported the franchise, and it's done them no favors. I completely agree, Infinate, to me, feels like their last shot at nailing down the demographic they want to continue to build the franchise for. If they don't get it right, I won't be giving them another chance, and I suspect I'm not alone.
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