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Quite Frankly, I Like Armor Abilities

OP Kalyx triaD

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Now that I look back, I think I worded it wrong when I said that people didn’t like WW2. However, it wasn’t better than WaW for example. It sold well because the older CoD fans saw that it went back to their roots, and the little kids saw a new CoD, which meant it’d sell well for sure.
Wait, what's the point here exactly? I really don't understand what you're comparing. Based on sales WW2 did a lot better than WaW, didn't it? Also the second one is often described to be among the least liked games of the series by the CoD community, while I saw WW2 getting praised a lot (until Activision greed ruined it with yet another gambling mechanic that is).

So is the comparison about sales, population, popularity...? I really don't follow you here mate! 😅

You can’t actually use Doom as an example for a game with no advanced movement, because when you try walking, it feels like you’re still sprinting without actually sprinting.
Ehm, yes we can? I mean, you're describing exactly why we're using DOOM as an example in first place! Halo 1 to 3 did exactly that -> you were sprinting with your gun up and without using an additional button to reach max speed. So what are we talking about?

And for the why it doesn't FEEL like you're running (at least in H3 and partially in H2) it was explained many times before as well. FOV in primis. Which is also why we're using DOOM as an example: it's a modern shooter with the move-set we desire for Halo, but without the technical issues from past Bungie entries.

So sorry if your statement baffles me to say the least, but it means you didn't got our point and reasoning at all! 😐

As for Microsoft having every reason to go for classic gameplay, they don’t. They have every reason, though, to appeal to both old and new players.
Fine by me, but like I asked you before without getting an answer: how is this compromise going to look like?
HAHAHA I never f*cking said that WW2 was a failure. I know it was good, My point was that WW2 wasn't how people expected it to be in terms of reception, because let's be real, CoD always sells well no matter what. I don't care about the FOV. All I care about is Halo being fun, and sprint in Halo will make the movement usable (although DOOM-like gameplay would be fine for me.)

For the compromise, this is my idea

- Limited sprint up to 15 seconds
- No Spartan Abilities except for Clamber
- Design maps so you won't always have to sprint
- Mixed art style
- Playlists for Halo 5 and Halo 3 fans

It's been very clear since you first replied to my comments that our views of what Halo should be are very different, so I prefer to stop this argument before we start cussing out to each other. If you see me in a thread discussing similar topics, then we shall continue from there.
Honestly, I don't think there is a suitable compromise, just what more players are going to like vs what most players won't like. I feel like this is an instance where 343 is going to have to make some fans very happy, and other fans not happy. My guess is classic movement is going to come back no holds bar, with very little if any advanced movement. That is going to make the original fan base happy who are now older and spend their own money as opposed to any newer fanboys happy who may or may not still have to get mommy and daddy to buy them a game. Older fans even if they like the AA in Halo 4 and Halo 5 will more than likely still buy the game even if they drop all AA and advanced movement. Here is my thoughts on what Halo Infinite will have

-No sprint
-No Spartan Abilities. (Clamber may still be in the game because that isn't really an ability as it is a feature)
-Small, Medium, and Large maps with some remakes sprinkled in from ALL previous Halo games. I want a new Blood Gultch!
-Mixed art, but mostly classic Halo art
-All previously released playlists and force at launch.
Now that I look back, I think I worded it wrong when I said that people didn’t like WW2. However, it wasn’t better than WaW for example. It sold well because the older CoD fans saw that it went back to their roots, and the little kids saw a new CoD, which meant it’d sell well for sure.
Wait, what's the point here exactly? I really don't understand what you're comparing. Based on sales WW2 did a lot better than WaW, didn't it? Also the second one is often described to be among the least liked games of the series by the CoD community, while I saw WW2 getting praised a lot (until Activision greed ruined it with yet another gambling mechanic that is).

So is the comparison about sales, population, popularity...? I really don't follow you here mate! 😅

You can’t actually use Doom as an example for a game with no advanced movement, because when you try walking, it feels like you’re still sprinting without actually sprinting.
Ehm, yes we can? I mean, you're describing exactly why we're using DOOM as an example in first place! Halo 1 to 3 did exactly that -> you were sprinting with your gun up and without using an additional button to reach max speed. So what are we talking about?

And for the why it doesn't FEEL like you're running (at least in H3 and partially in H2) it was explained many times before as well. FOV in primis. Which is also why we're using DOOM as an example: it's a modern shooter with the move-set we desire for Halo, but without the technical issues from past Bungie entries.

So sorry if your statement baffles me to say the least, but it means you didn't got our point and reasoning at all! 😐

As for Microsoft having every reason to go for classic gameplay, they don’t. They have every reason, though, to appeal to both old and new players.
Fine by me, but like I asked you before without getting an answer: how is this compromise going to look like?
HAHAHA I never f*cking said that WW2 was a failure. I know it was good, My point was that WW2 wasn't how people expected it to be in terms of reception, because let's be real, CoD always sells well no matter what. I don't care about the FOV. All I care about is Halo being fun, and sprint in Halo will make the movement usable (although DOOM-like gameplay would be fine for me.)

For the compromise, this is my idea

- Limited sprint up to 15 seconds
- No Spartan Abilities except for Clamber
- Design maps so you won't always have to sprint
- Mixed art style
- Playlists for Halo 5 and Halo 3 fans

It's been very clear since you first replied to my comments that our views of what Halo should be are very different, so I prefer to stop this argument before we start cussing out to each other. If you see me in a thread discussing similar topics, then we shall continue from there.
Honestly, I don't think there is a suitable compromise, just what more players are going to like vs what most players won't like. I feel like this is an instance where 343 is going to have to make some fans very happy, and other fans not happy. My guess is classic movement is going to come back no holds bar, with very little if any advanced movement. That is going to make the original fan base happy who are now older and spend their own money as opposed to any newer fanboys happy who may or may not still have to get mommy and daddy to buy them a game. Older fans even if they like the AA in Halo 4 and Halo 5 will more than likely still buy the game even if they drop all AA and advanced movement. Here is my thoughts on what Halo Infinite will have

-No sprint
-No Spartan Abilities. (Clamber may still be in the game because that isn't really an ability as it is a feature)
-Small, Medium, and Large maps with some remakes sprinkled in from ALL previous Halo games. I want a new Blood Gultch!
-Mixed art, but mostly classic Halo art
-All previously released playlists and force at launch.
-higher BMS
-thrusters(I just find them fun)
-variety of maps
-the artstyle we've seen so far
-full game at launch
They feel out of place in Campaign, but can certainly be used in some MP modes where an arcade feel is a good thing.

H4 abilities had very little utility and felt like a real tacked-on gimmick.
They feel out of place in Campaign, but can certainly be used in some MP modes where an arcade feel is a good thing.

H4 abilities had very little utility and felt like a real tacked-on gimmick.
I agree they felt out of place in campaign but I also didn't like them in MP. It felt less like Halo and more like basically every other shooter.
Loadouts kill EVEN spawns and vehicle combat, they don't belong to Halo, they were straight copied from CoD.
Armor Abilities were surely better than Spartan Abilities in terms of map design but they have their issues too.
Agreed on Ordinance being not present.

They can't realistically add everything before Halo Infinite, but if I could choose I would add everything pre-Halo 4.

After many years I can appreciate some things that Halo 4 has as its own game, but still to me it is not Halo.
''Armor Abilities were surely better than Spartan Abilities in terms of map design but they have their issues too.''

Shut up. if you played any forge remake of an older map in Reach you'll know how bad Armor Abilities are.

Jetpack is a million times worse than climb.
Karim wrote:
Tactically rich? Being able to see through walls using promethean vision was everything but tactically rich, it was a hack.
And that's a fact, not an opinion.

But as you said, armor abilities were really funny in custom games, still I don't think they will come back.
Not a single AA in H4 was broken. They had limited active time and fairly restrictive cooldowns. Not to mention common sense counter play, some counters were built into the ability itself.

Lot of people spoke about how AAs broke the game but I've never actually seen posts explaining how any one AA ruined the game. Even the most infamous AA, Vision, was NOT the most used/seen AA in a match. Late life, if people hung around that long, the sentry bot started seeing way more play - but nobody ever complained about them online.

Makes me think the actual argument was it's different rather than overt balance issues.
Being able to see through walls or spawning with active camo wasnt broken?
No.

Promethean Vision gave off a signal than enemy was using it, was very brief, and obsured the environment into a xray styled filter that was not very nice on the eyes. Again, there's a reason Everybody in the match didn't just default to Vision. There's a reason it wasn't ever a high meta pick.

Camo went opaque when you moved at a speed that would otherwise put you on radar. It also obscured your own radar with dots which also showed up on enemy radar giving you away. And all abilities were regulated with energy resource with recharge time.

It kinda proves my point that rather than explain how they were broken... you ask a loaded question. But I played a lot of H4. Active on various forums related to H4. The arguments against AAs were always about how they subverted several Halo traditional pillars, which is fair enough criticism.

Nobody, and I mean nobody articulated how any one of them were broken. The only one that was massively disruptive was Armor Lock in Reach and sure enough it got one major nerf in Reach and never came back in H4. H4 AAs required one major balance pass ever.
A point I want to add about Promethean Vision, it's not broken. It may seem like it is, but you can counter someone using it by just paying attention to your radar. I know this because if someone uses PV near a player, a huge red ripple effect would appear on the radar.
I've always enjoyed using armor abilities in Halo Reach and 4 because it gave me variety. It let me "mix things up a little."
I think there should be a game mode with Armor Abilities enabled, a game mode with Spartan Abilities enabled, and then the rest where there is just pure Classic Halo Combat. I see no real reason why you can't have 3 multiplayer playlists like that since they finally managed to get Halo MCC up and running with several different multiplayer game engines and progressions.
Karim wrote:
Tactically rich? Being able to see through walls using promethean vision was everything but tactically rich, it was a hack.
And that's a fact, not an opinion.

But as you said, armor abilities were really funny in custom games, still I don't think they will come back.
Not a single AA in H4 was broken. They had limited active time and fairly restrictive cooldowns. Not to mention common sense counter play, some counters were built into the ability itself.

Lot of people spoke about how AAs broke the game but I've never actually seen posts explaining how any one AA ruined the game. Even the most infamous AA, Vision, was NOT the most used/seen AA in a match. Late life, if people hung around that long, the sentry bot started seeing way more play - but nobody ever complained about them online.

Makes me think the actual argument was it's different rather than overt balance issues.
Being able to see through walls or spawning with active camo wasnt broken?
No.

Promethean Vision gave off a signal than enemy was using it, was very brief, and obsured the environment into a xray styled filter that was not very nice on the eyes. Again, there's a reason Everybody in the match didn't just default to Vision. There's a reason it wasn't ever a high meta pick.

Camo went opaque when you moved at a speed that would otherwise put you on radar. It also obscured your own radar with dots which also showed up on enemy radar giving you away. And all abilities were regulated with energy resource with recharge time.

It kinda proves my point that rather than explain how they were broken... you ask a loaded question. But I played a lot of H4. Active on various forums related to H4. The arguments against AAs were always about how they subverted several Halo traditional pillars, which is fair enough criticism.

Nobody, and I mean nobody articulated how any one of them were broken. The only one that was massively disruptive was Armor Lock in Reach and sure enough it got one major nerf in Reach and never came back in H4. H4 AAs required one major balance pass ever.
A point I want to add about Promethean Vision, it's not broken. It may seem like it is, but you can counter someone using it by just paying attention to your radar. I know this because if someone uses PV near a player, a huge red ripple effect would appear on the radar.
So, how exactly does one "counter" it by just seeing the red ripple on the radar?
Naqser wrote:
Karim wrote:
Tactically rich? Being able to see through walls using promethean vision was everything but tactically rich, it was a hack.
And that's a fact, not an opinion.

But as you said, armor abilities were really funny in custom games, still I don't think they will come back.
Not a single AA in H4 was broken. They had limited active time and fairly restrictive cooldowns. Not to mention common sense counter play, some counters were built into the ability itself.

Lot of people spoke about how AAs broke the game but I've never actually seen posts explaining how any one AA ruined the game. Even the most infamous AA, Vision, was NOT the most used/seen AA in a match. Late life, if people hung around that long, the sentry bot started seeing way more play - but nobody ever complained about them online.

Makes me think the actual argument was it's different rather than overt balance issues.
Being able to see through walls or spawning with active camo wasnt broken?
No.

Promethean Vision gave off a signal than enemy was using it, was very brief, and obsured the environment into a xray styled filter that was not very nice on the eyes. Again, there's a reason Everybody in the match didn't just default to Vision. There's a reason it wasn't ever a high meta pick.

Camo went opaque when you moved at a speed that would otherwise put you on radar. It also obscured your own radar with dots which also showed up on enemy radar giving you away. And all abilities were regulated with energy resource with recharge time.

It kinda proves my point that rather than explain how they were broken... you ask a loaded question. But I played a lot of H4. Active on various forums related to H4. The arguments against AAs were always about how they subverted several Halo traditional pillars, which is fair enough criticism.

Nobody, and I mean nobody articulated how any one of them were broken. The only one that was massively disruptive was Armor Lock in Reach and sure enough it got one major nerf in Reach and never came back in H4. H4 AAs required one major balance pass ever.
A point I want to add about Promethean Vision, it's not broken. It may seem like it is, but you can counter someone using it by just paying attention to your radar. I know this because if someone uses PV near a player, a huge red ripple effect would appear on the radar.
So, how exactly does one "counter" it by just seeing the red ripple on the radar?
Cloak plus jammer. promethean vision sees only through walls but I may be wrong. VISR from H3 ODST can see cloak.

Vision is one of those things that has only been touched on more like a campaign novelty than a staple. Understandably so as vison is important in a FPS and if you mess with the vision to try and create atmosphere you make it hard (Late Night Gaming did a video on that), also the only games to try vision enhancements in multiplayer (Metroid Prime and Perfect Dark) it didn't work out as well.

I sort of think vision elements could add a lot of exploration as I did like games such as Splinter Cell, Aliens vs Predator and Metroid Prime which had some real interesting vision modes. I think Halo could add that in as a multiplayer element be it the darklight VISR mode or Promethean Vision to just choosing between flashlight or NVGs in a dark room. However some might argue that would be breaking the golden triangle as now you have vision mode to consider on top of melee, weapons, grenades and or equipment/abilities.

The trickiest thing about vision is going to make sure players can navigate as changing the perspective does interfere with the way we perceive our surroundings. Just ask the military as troops wearing NVGs have been known to run straight into walls as they don't have depth perspective. Still could be an interesting thing to always have a flashlight on hand and have actual rooms in multiplayer where you might need it.
Naqser wrote:
So, how exactly does one "counter" it by just seeing the red ripple on the radar?
Cloak plus jammer. promethean vision sees only through walls but I may be wrong. VISR from H3 ODST can see cloak.
Having Camo which is charged would be circumstantial at best, it'd also give away your position, which I'd assume the PV user is looking for.

One could hope to move backwards, but that too doesn't work consistently.

I was merely curious how it's a counter seeing the red expanding circle.
If any abilities were throwable / consumable items or map pick-ups it wouldn't be an issue to the classic crowd.

Equipment could be a pain in H3 because solar flare, regen field, power drain, bubble shield and radar jammer were not fun in their iterations. Having massive player variations off spawn isn't what Halo was, it begins to play like a pseudo-class/hero style shooter unlike say TF2 or Overwatch however it was impossible to judge what people had on them so no counterplay could be available, all counterplay was reactionary, not predictable.

I hate spartan abilities because they take over the tempo, pacing and decision making of Halo drastically, i dislike armour abilities primarily because of how different people spawn.

There is an easy way to resolve this issue i think, and that is to make these abilities a major part of the game, but as map-pickups. Not all have been great but
  • Jetpack
  • Evade / thrust (works better as a two-use mechanic like evade, higher skill ceiling)
  • Grav lift
  • Hologram
  • Tripmine
  • Bubble shield (make it smaller and give it a 1-3 shot health bar, more of a life saver than a stall)
You could make promethean vision into a throwable nade, health packs work more fairly than a regen field, power drain could be a very precise small radius throwable. We could create new weapons that don't deal damage but could make for better initiation and punish.
We could easily implement the crowd control / ability ideas found in say League of Legends or Overwatch without having to sacrifice the even starts / information focused nature of how Halo plays.

X19Doug95 wrote:
''Armor Abilities were surely better than Spartan Abilities in terms of map design but they have their issues too.''

Shut up. if you played any forge remake of an older map in Reach you'll know how bad Armor Abilities are.

Jetpack is a million times worse than climb.
Jet packs on spawn are worse, but if restricted to 1 or 2 per map then sailing over the map geometry wouldn't be unfair but a power granted to the player from gaining Jetpack, since it's limited and on map it can be played around and shut down, on spawn it can't.

Having power spikes is great, Clamber really mucks up the concept of leverage against the other team by gaining high ground, limited Jetpack wouldn't.
In my opinion reach's abilities are horrible. But Halo 5's are very good (but I prefer hcs abilities).
I've always enjoyed using armor abilities in Halo Reach and 4 because it gave me variety. It let me "mix things up a little."
Yes, but reach's shield and active camo are horrible in my opinion.
I think there should be a game mode with Armor Abilities enabled, a game mode with Spartan Abilities enabled, and then the rest where there is just pure Classic Halo Combat. I see no real reason why you can't have 3 multiplayer playlists like that since they finally managed to get Halo MCC up and running with several different multiplayer game engines and progressions.
I agree mate. This is a great idea. I hope 343 reads your post.
I want one abilities : the run. In my opinion reach halo 4 and 5 are beautiful because there is the run.
If any abilities were throwable / consumable items or map pick-ups it wouldn't be an issue to the classic crowd.

Equipment could be a pain in H3 because solar flare, regen field, power drain, bubble shield and radar jammer were not fun in their iterations. Having massive player variations off spawn isn't what Halo was, it begins to play like a pseudo-class/hero style shooter unlike say TF2 or Overwatch however it was impossible to judge what people had on them so no counterplay could be available, all counterplay was reactionary, not predictable.

I hate spartan abilities because they take over the tempo, pacing and decision making of Halo drastically, i dislike armour abilities primarily because of how different people spawn.

There is an easy way to resolve this issue i think, and that is to make these abilities a major part of the game, but as map-pickups. Not all have been great but
  • Jetpack
  • Evade / thrust (works better as a two-use mechanic like evade, higher skill ceiling)
  • Grav lift
  • Hologram
  • Tripmine
  • Bubble shield (make it smaller and give it a 1-3 shot health bar, more of a life saver than a stall)
You could make promethean vision into a throwable nade, health packs work more fairly than a regen field, power drain could be a very precise small radius throwable. We could create new weapons that don't deal damage but could make for better initiation and punish.
We could easily implement the crowd control / ability ideas found in say League of Legends or Overwatch without having to sacrifice the even starts / information focused nature of how Halo plays.

X19Doug95 wrote:
''Armor Abilities were surely better than Spartan Abilities in terms of map design but they have their issues too.''

Shut up. if you played any forge remake of an older map in Reach you'll know how bad Armor Abilities are.

Jetpack is a million times worse than climb.
Jet packs on spawn are worse, but if restricted to 1 or 2 per map then sailing over the map geometry wouldn't be unfair but a power granted to the player from gaining Jetpack, since it's limited and on map it can be played around and shut down, on spawn it can't.

Having power spikes is great, Clamber really mucks up the concept of leverage against the other team by gaining high ground, limited Jetpack wouldn't.
Well with the equipment the best thing Bungie did was combined the equipment to make the abilities work. Radar Jamer was useless unless you had Active Camo, as for power drain that was tied into armor lock. They could have made some alternative abilities with these combinations, such as having an Active Camo that launches a flare. However I noticed that lighting bloom wasn't as intense in Reach which was probably why the flare was just cut out all together. I could have seen a Grave lift as an alternative to jet pack. Instead of jumping up immediately deploy a grav lift and one the way down you could activate it again to deploy as a landing platform (like the soft grav lifts on Spire).
The problem with adding everything into one sandbox is the balancing. And to have a good Halo game it needs to be balanced. The roots of Halo will always be a balanced arena 4v4. If they can’t do that then the rest of the game will suffer as well
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