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SBMM - Why it is both good and bad

OP HaloBungie343I

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I think the key to social playlists is to underpin with SBMM - but with a little bit of extra laxity to promote connection quality and speed (of getting into games).

The games themselves need to be fun. Mix them up. Make them a bit silly. Take away / hide some of the individual parameters (eg. K:D) - which you can still look them up if you need to - but don't display that stuff at the end of the game.

Don't record overall wins and losses - maybe concentrate more on time in game as a metric.

Balanced skill levels should be the core of creating a fun experience. The key is wiping the sweat off the brow is to take away the pressure to win.
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
Darwi wrote:
I think the key to social playlists is to underpin with SBMM - but with a little bit of extra laxity to promote connection quality and speed (of getting into games).

The games themselves need to be fun. Mix them up. Make them a bit silly. Take away / hide some of the individual parameters (eg. K:D) - which you can still look them up if you need to - but don't display that stuff at the end of the game.

Don't record overall wins and losses - maybe concentrate more on time in game as a metric.

Balanced skill levels should be the core of creating a fun experience. The key is wiping the sweat off the brow is to take away the pressure to win.
Everything you said here is what you were disputing in regards to the H5 matchmaking system. Mixing the tiers of players in social while keeping similar KDA’s together for ranked. Basing matchmaking off wins and losses does not keep people of similar skill together in ranked.
SBMM, or Skill Based Matchmaking, is an algorithm used by developers to put you with players that are similar is skill to you. Games as far back as Halo 2, CoD Ghosts, and other similar games (primarily in the FPS genre) al have had some form of SBMM.

SBMM is not necessarily a bad thing. But the implementation of it in modern games has been very bad.

The point of this explanation is, while Halo has had SBMM in every Halo game to date with the exception of Halo: Combat Evolved, Halo: Combat Evolved PC, and Halo: Custom Edition, it has not been nearly as big as today nor has it affected matchmaking as it does today. This is how we have the three options available to us when matchmaking in Halo 5: Guardians and Halo: MCC. We have "Search for the fastest match," Find a Balanced Match," and "Extended Search." These alter the SBMM in a way to give us a match we want. One that gets us in quickly with any players of any skill close by. One gives us a match close but with similar skill. And one gives us a match with very similar skill anywhere the game can find one. Even if it isn't at the closest servers. But should remain in your region at the least.

Here is my thoughts on Halo: Infinite and SBMM:
Halo: Infinite needs to continue to use the same SBMM algorithms it has been using since Halo 2 and do NOT change to the modern system used by companies like Ubisoft, Activision, EA, and Epic Games.

I will not argue and ask 343 to not use SBMM as that would be pointless. 343 will use SBMM whether anyone here likes it or not. I just hope it will be the same as all previous Halos.

Anyone else have something to add? Do you disagree?
Some things are better left unsaid...

I think if it works, it is for the best. However, it requires some serious talented minds to put together a working system.

For example, this science works well with things like the gmat. But, I don't think 343 is going the $$* to make it realistic. I think more or less, simpler is better.

I'm not complaining, and it's just for fun. But, there are a lot of variables to consider when ranking a player and the devil is in the details.

If I were them, I would start from reach and build upon it. I don't really have any background in algorithm development but the premise for a good model is :

Outline your highly impactful variables for rank:

A) wins/loss
B) kda
C) dependent variable on win/loss, kda of opponents

If a > 1 and c >1 ; increase c > 1.25
Kda = kda for matching teams (bop = balance of power)
Rematch, repeat

Then just equate levels to win/loss ratio and match on equal kda.

That's kind of a example think tank of how start... Of course it is much more complicated than that but, like I said, I'm not versed in algorithms.
SBMM, or Skill Based Matchmaking, is an algorithm used by developers to put you with players that are similar is skill to you. Games as far back as Halo 2, CoD Ghosts, and other similar games (primarily in the FPS genre) al have had some form of SBMM.

SBMM is not necessarily a bad thing. But the implementation of it in modern games has been very bad.

The point of this explanation is, while Halo has had SBMM in every Halo game to date with the exception of Halo: Combat Evolved, Halo: Combat Evolved PC, and Halo: Custom Edition, it has not been nearly as big as today nor has it affected matchmaking as it does today. This is how we have the three options available to us when matchmaking in Halo 5: Guardians and Halo: MCC. We have "Search for the fastest match," Find a Balanced Match," and "Extended Search." These alter the SBMM in a way to give us a match we want. One that gets us in quickly with any players of any skill close by. One gives us a match close but with similar skill. And one gives us a match with very similar skill anywhere the game can find one. Even if it isn't at the closest servers. But should remain in your region at the least.

Here is my thoughts on Halo: Infinite and SBMM:
Halo: Infinite needs to continue to use the same SBMM algorithms it has been using since Halo 2 and do NOT change to the modern system used by companies like Ubisoft, Activision, EA, and Epic Games.

I will not argue and ask 343 to not use SBMM as that would be pointless. 343 will use SBMM whether anyone here likes it or not. I just hope it will be the same as all previous Halos.

Anyone else have something to add? Do you disagree?
Some things are better left unsaid...

I think if it works, it is for the best. However, it requires some serious talented minds to put together a working system.

For example, this science works well with things like the gmat. But, I don't think 343 is going the $$* to make it realistic. I think more or less, simpler is better.

I'm not complaining, and it's just for fun. But, there are a lot of variables to consider when ranking a player and the devil is in the details.

If I were them, I would start from reach and build upon it. I don't really have any background in algorithm development but the premise for a good model is :

Outline your highly impactful variables for rank:

A) wins/loss
B) kda
C) dependent variable on win/loss, kda of opponents

If a > 1 and c >1 ; increase c > 1.25
Kda = kda for matching teams (bop = balance of power)
Rematch, repeat

Then just equate levels to win/loss ratio and match on equal kda.

That's kind of a example think tank of how start... Of course it is much more complicated than that but, like I said, I'm not versed in algorithms.
The current H5 system is entirely based on win loss rankings.

I guess what the real question is whether people believe a rank is indicative of skill or whether they’d prefer their rank in a playlist to be based on their skill level as opposed to win loss record.
tsassi wrote:
The current H5 system is entirely based on win loss rankings.
This is false:
Quote:
Also, while TrueSkill2 by far prefers players who win, it also incorporates kill and death information, as well as quitting behavior. This means even if you lose, it’s possible that your MMR will go up. So, you can lose even most of your placement matches and still get a good Rank if you had much worse teammates and still played well. Once you are placed, you can’t gain CSR for losing, but you can have your MMR go up. If this happens, you will get that back over time as CSR when you next start winning. It will also mean you will lose less CSR on your losses because if your MMR is higher, the CSR update assumes you were more responsible for the win, and less for the loss. Likewise, MMR can go down if you perform poorly compared to the rest of the players on your team, or in your party, resulting in eventual CSR losses.
All thats good and well but i've never seen little green arrows going up after loss (in relation to rank). It also doesnt incorporate the main grievance of having multiple tiered players in a ranked arena match. If it does then this is proof enough that the ranking system currently in H5 isn't right because one player who has 1.5 KDA ranked platinum while another player with the exact same 1.5 KDA but with more wins is ranked Diamond or Onyx.

I understand the difference between the two which is why the second part of my original statement was left out of your quote.
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
The current H5 system is entirely based on win loss rankings.
This is false:
Quote:
Also, while TrueSkill2 by far prefers players who win, it also incorporates kill and death information, as well as quitting behavior. This means even if you lose, it’s possible that your MMR will go up. So, you can lose even most of your placement matches and still get a good Rank if you had much worse teammates and still played well. Once you are placed, you can’t gain CSR for losing, but you can have your MMR go up. If this happens, you will get that back over time as CSR when you next start winning. It will also mean you will lose less CSR on your losses because if your MMR is higher, the CSR update assumes you were more responsible for the win, and less for the loss. Likewise, MMR can go down if you perform poorly compared to the rest of the players on your team, or in your party, resulting in eventual CSR losses.
All thats good and well but i've never seen little green arrows going up after loss (in relation to rank). I understand the difference between the two which is why the second part of my statement was left out of your quote.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about MMR since this thread is about skill based matchmaking. CSR doesn't have anything to do with matchmaking, and is kind of besides the point.
No worries...the conversation evolved since the first post as most threads tend to do.
Strict in ranked. Social should be social. Im not trying to sweat every time I play.

I get much better games in ranked than I do social. Every time I try to play social I get matched with a team while I get people lacking thumbs.
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
Not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but your logic is similar to child abuse/beating and then the abused kid grows up and abuses his children. Or hazing, in general. It is a toxic tradition that we can do away with.

Not many people are dedicated enough to go through such a process when gaming is supposed to be relaxing. If new players get destroyed constantly, most of them will just stop playing the game and then we are once again left with a small hardcore community.
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
Not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but your logic is similar to child abuse/beating and then the abused kid grows up and abuses his children. Or hazing, in general. It is a toxic tradition that we can do away with.

Not many people are dedicated enough to go through such a process when gaming is supposed to be relaxing. If new players get destroyed constantly, most of them will just stop playing the game and then we are once again left with a small hardcore community.
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Not allowing a kid to lose is what makes them grow up spoiled brats. The fact that you relate this to child abuse is actually insane.
DIlzZzY wrote:
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
Not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but your logic is similar to child abuse/beating and then the abused kid grows up and abuses his children. Or hazing, in general. It is a toxic tradition that we can do away with.

Not many people are dedicated enough to go through such a process when gaming is supposed to be relaxing. If new players get destroyed constantly, most of them will just stop playing the game and then we are once again left with a small hardcore community.
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Not allowing a kid to lose is what makes them grow up spoiled brats. The fact that you relate this to child abuse is actually insane.
It also takes away any drive or motivation to succeed because they think the world will cater to them to make life easier. Well, it doesn't work that way.
DIlzZzY wrote:
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
Not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but your logic is similar to child abuse/beating and then the abused kid grows up and abuses his children. Or hazing, in general. It is a toxic tradition that we can do away with.

Not many people are dedicated enough to go through such a process when gaming is supposed to be relaxing. If new players get destroyed constantly, most of them will just stop playing the game and then we are once again left with a small hardcore community.
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Not allowing a kid to lose is what makes them grow up spoiled brats. The fact that you relate this to child abuse is actually insane.
I'm relating it to old-fashioned schools of thought that are essentially "if I went through it then everyone else should too" when there are better alternatives.

When you go to the gym, you don't start curling 100lbs when you should be curling 20s. You don't start learning multivariable calculus before learning algebra. Learning/getting stronger is a process that involves tiered challenges or else growth is slow, if at all.
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
Not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but your logic is similar to child abuse/beating and then the abused kid grows up and abuses his children. Or hazing, in general. It is a toxic tradition that we can do away with.

Not many people are dedicated enough to go through such a process when gaming is supposed to be relaxing. If new players get destroyed constantly, most of them will just stop playing the game and then we are once again left with a small hardcore community.
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Not allowing a kid to lose is what makes them grow up spoiled brats. The fact that you relate this to child abuse is actually insane.
I'm relating it to old-fashioned schools of thought that are essentially "if I went through it then everyone else should too" when there are better alternatives.

When you go to the gym, you don't start curling 100lbs when you should be curling 20s. You don't start learning multivariable calculus before learning algebra. Learning/getting stronger is a process that involves tiered challenges or else growth is slow, if at all.
Same challenge actually. 20lbs is just as hard when you're weak as 100lbs is when you're stronger.
DIlzZzY wrote:
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
Not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but your logic is similar to child abuse/beating and then the abused kid grows up and abuses his children. Or hazing, in general. It is a toxic tradition that we can do away with.

Not many people are dedicated enough to go through such a process when gaming is supposed to be relaxing. If new players get destroyed constantly, most of them will just stop playing the game and then we are once again left with a small hardcore community.
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Not allowing a kid to lose is what makes them grow up spoiled brats. The fact that you relate this to child abuse is actually insane.
I'm relating it to old-fashioned schools of thought that are essentially "if I went through it then everyone else should too" when there are better alternatives.

When you go to the gym, you don't start curling 100lbs when you should be curling 20s. You don't start learning multivariable calculus before learning algebra. Learning/getting stronger is a process that involves tiered challenges or else growth is slow, if at all.
Same challenge actually. 20lbs is just as hard when you're weak as 100lbs is when you're stronger.
With it in ranked playlists, you can see your progress. With it in casual playlists, you always move up and will go 15-10 or do average every single time. They never get to see or experience how much butter they actually get.
DIlzZzY wrote:
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
qlimm wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
Not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but your logic is similar to child abuse/beating and then the abused kid grows up and abuses his children. Or hazing, in general. It is a toxic tradition that we can do away with.

Not many people are dedicated enough to go through such a process when gaming is supposed to be relaxing. If new players get destroyed constantly, most of them will just stop playing the game and then we are once again left with a small hardcore community.
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Not allowing a kid to lose is what makes them grow up spoiled brats. The fact that you relate this to child abuse is actually insane.
I'm relating it to old-fashioned schools of thought that are essentially "if I went through it then everyone else should too" when there are better alternatives.

When you go to the gym, you don't start curling 100lbs when you should be curling 20s. You don't start learning multivariable calculus before learning algebra. Learning/getting stronger is a process that involves tiered challenges or else growth is slow, if at all.
Same challenge actually. 20lbs is just as hard when you're weak as 100lbs is when you're stronger.
You literally proved my point. So let's prevent 13yos from going to the gym for the first time (new Halo players) from curling 100lbs (playing against full teams of vets) so they can progressively build muscle, not hurt themselves and stop lifting.
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
The same way you want to coddle the day away stomping minions?
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