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SBMM - Why it is both good and bad

OP HaloBungie343I

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GRNT WRK wrote:
Strict in ranked. Social should be social. Im not trying to sweat every time I play.
Sweating is a state of mind.

GRNT WRK wrote:
I get much better games in ranked than I do social. Every time I try to play social I get matched with a team while I get people lacking thumbs.
The thing is, getting frustrated by those "lacking thumbs", ie. not having fun in a social playlist - kind of makes you the sweaty one.
Darwi wrote:
I think the key to social playlists is to underpin with SBMM - but with a little bit of extra laxity to promote connection quality and speed (of getting into games).

The games themselves need to be fun. Mix them up. Make them a bit silly. Take away / hide some of the individual parameters (eg. K:D) - which you can still look them up if you need to - but don't display that stuff at the end of the game.

Don't record overall wins and losses - maybe concentrate more on time in game as a metric.

Balanced skill levels should be the core of creating a fun experience. The key is wiping the sweat off the brow is to take away the pressure to win.
Everything you said here is what you were disputing in regards to the H5 matchmaking system. Mixing the tiers of players in social while keeping similar KDA’s together for ranked. Basing matchmaking off wins and losses does not keep people of similar skill together in ranked.
Damn. I do like to be consistent - even when I'm wrong.

I do struggle with teams based mentality in H5. Time after time I'm in games where people ranked above me do way worse. I appreciate that there CSR has been inflated by a run of games with good teams... and I hope that their MMR will drag them down soon. I also appreciate that it is a team game - and it should be based on team performance (just sucks to be a solo drifter). And I really do appreciate the maths / accuracy behind the system - and it is clearly working (for slayer I pretty much have a KD of 1 and a W/L of 50%).
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
The same way you want to coddle the day away stomping minions?
Not at all. The same way I want to play a game and be rewarded for putting time into it by not being placed up against people only at my skill level in CASUAL game modes. Your mindset is why our generation is the biggest laughing stock.
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
The same way you want to coddle the day away stomping minions?
Not at all. The same way I want to play a game and be rewarded for putting time into it by not being placed up against people only at my skill level in CASUAL game modes. Your mindset is why our generation is the biggest laughing stock.
My mindset is simply that a close game is a good game. In both Ranked and Social playlists.

My mindset is that games that wind up a +20 win are just as pointless as a -20 loss. Boring as bat guano.

My mindset is 'sweatiness' is simply a state of mind.

My mindset is that some form of SBMM has to underpin all the games. More an emphasis on matching individuals across the board in Ranked and matching teams in Social.
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
The same way you want to coddle the day away stomping minions?
Not at all. The same way I want to play a game and be rewarded for putting time into it by not being placed up against people only at my skill level in CASUAL game modes. Your mindset is why our generation is the biggest laughing stock.
My mindset is simply that a close game is a good game. In both Ranked and Social playlists.

My mindset is that games that wind up a +20 win are just as pointless as a -20 loss. Boring as bat guano.

My mindset is 'sweatiness' is simply a state of mind.

My mindset is that some form of SBMM has to underpin all the games. More an emphasis on matching individuals across the board in Ranked and matching teams in Social.
I know and I don't agree with your mindset.
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
Darwi wrote:
DIlzZzY wrote:
SBMM should ONLY ever be put in a ranked playlist. Social playlists have no place for SBMM. As you can see with Cold War, you either reverse boost to have fun or sweat 24/7.
Can't agree with you there.

For every player having 'fun' stomping around... there is another player being stomped upon - and I doubt they are having much fun.

I don't consider myself particularly 'sweaty' (whatever that means) but I've never derived any enjoyment in being a flat track bully. In games where my team is dominating I often start practicing routes and jumps - there is no honour in buffing your K:D with marshmallows.

SBMM should be in every playlist. Sure, it can be relaxed a bit in social scenarios. But to go in completely random is madness.
Skill is your reward for playing and learning the game. SBMM removes that reward and punishes it. You can't expect to be good at something your first time playing it.
I agree you can't. So first time players deserve to be matched with other (relative) new comers.

They don't deserved to be stomped upon by 'regulars' on an ego trip (that's not the way to grow and maintain a population base).

Skill is your reward for getting better at the game. SBMM rewards that new skill by giving you better players to prove yourself against. In ranked games the players should be as close as possible to provide the best challenge. And if a player isn't winning around 50% of their games then they weren't as good as they thought they were - and will de-rank back to a level that provides more 'fun'.

In social games the teams should be evenly matched to provide a close, but fun, contest. And I really don't see how you do that without some form of SBMM in the background. To make it completely random - especially against well co-ordinated teams - would be folly of the highest order.
Sorry, I respect your opinion but I can't agree. We live in a culture where everyone needs to be coddled. If the new comer wants to play similar levels, he should play ranked playlists where he will always stay at a low level rank.
The same way you want to coddle the day away stomping minions?
Not at all. The same way I want to play a game and be rewarded for putting time into it by not being placed up against people only at my skill level in CASUAL game modes. Your mindset is why our generation is the biggest laughing stock.
My mindset is simply that a close game is a good game. In both Ranked and Social playlists.

My mindset is that games that wind up a +20 win are just as pointless as a -20 loss. Boring as bat guano.

My mindset is 'sweatiness' is simply a state of mind.

My mindset is that some form of SBMM has to underpin all the games. More an emphasis on matching individuals across the board in Ranked and matching teams in Social.
And I'd think at least some people at 343 don't either considering you get a medal for beating a team in slayer by 20+
So you think me having a problem with getting menked everytime I play social makes me sweaty?
Take a day off dude.
SBMM is terribly implmented and always should be lightened in social. It has killed the cod community look at cold war everyone is quiting. Devs should look at theatest data you are making people quit because games aren't fun anymore. People play ranked if they want to rank up. You want people to take ranked seeious inplement it like h3 rank add inheritor ranks specific to ranked. Lower sbmm I dont need to play pros every other game in social. The rankjng system in h5 is terrible. It should be w/l only. You should be allowed to play in a to4 without being punished.
qlimm wrote:
Loose sbmm parameters in social hurts player retention. Just my experience, but whenever I get easy games I feel like I'm wasting time and whenever I get games where I have 99% chance of losing I end up just getting frustrated. Both scenarios usually lead to quitting the game and doing something else more worthwhile.
I guess you never played Social Slayer in Halo 3. Loose sbmm and everyone loved it 10 years post launch. Largest population in the game. People who say stuff like this are the reason our games have 10k populations. But guiz sbmm makes bad kids quit, oh it looks like the opposite to me. Cold war has spoken.
Tetrafy wrote:
qlimm wrote:
Loose sbmm parameters in social hurts player retention. Just my experience, but whenever I get easy games I feel like I'm wasting time and whenever I get games where I have 99% chance of losing I end up just getting frustrated. Both scenarios usually lead to quitting the game and doing something else more worthwhile.
I guess you never played Social Slayer in Halo 3. Loose sbmm and everyone loved it 10 years post launch. Largest population in the game. People who say stuff like this are the reason our games have 10k populations. But guiz sbmm makes bad kids quit, oh it looks like the opposite to me. Cold war has spoken.
I said this because the creator of the current SBMM system has the data on quit rates and they increase sharply at a certain threshold of skill differential.
qlimm wrote:
Loose sbmm parameters in social hurts player retention. Just my experience, but whenever I get easy games I feel like I'm wasting time and whenever I get games where I have 99% chance of losing I end up just getting frustrated. Both scenarios usually lead to quitting the game and doing something else more worthwhile.
According to Josh Menke SBMM increases player retention. I think the big wave of games switching over to SBMM is due to that notion.
Ya, then we look at H5 and Cold War where no game is ever pure fun cause it's all a sweat fest of people with the same skill as you. Remove it or reduce it in social. If we want sweat, we will play ranked
or have a separate MMR for social like rocket league has. Social games where you play not sweaty will put you up against your level when not sweating
GRNT WRK wrote:
So you think me having a problem with getting menked everytime I play social makes me sweaty?
Take a day off dude.
Isn't that like, one of the definitions of sweaty?
qlimm wrote:
Loose sbmm parameters in social hurts player retention. Just my experience, but whenever I get easy games I feel like I'm wasting time and whenever I get games where I have 99% chance of losing I end up just getting frustrated. Both scenarios usually lead to quitting the game and doing something else more worthwhile.
According to Josh Menke SBMM increases player retention. I think the big wave of games switching over to SBMM is due to that notion.
Ya, then we look at H5 and Cold War where no game is ever pure fun cause it's all a sweat fest of people with the same skill as you. Remove it or reduce it in social. If we want sweat, we will play ranked
or have a separate MMR for social like rocket league has. Social games where you play not sweaty will put you up against your level when not sweating
That makes sense.

More of a 'sweat' based match making - everyone is grouped on their skill base for the way they approach that type of game?

That would actually suit me. When I play social I tend to try things out. I'm happy to push a bit harder for the medal type kills. I'll end up dying stupidly because I try one of those ninja kills that I can never pull off. I'll grab the weapons that I'm not very good at (snipers for the loss). :)

How well does it actually work in Rocket League? Good close games?
Tetrafy wrote:
SBMM is terribly implmented and always should be lightened in social.
I have no problem with the concept that SBMM can be 'lightened' in social. How much can be debated. But SBMM still needs to underpin the whole system so that we don't have random match ups. That would be bad.

Tetrafy wrote:
Lower sbmm I dont need to play pros every other game in social.
Isn't that what SBMM is for? Unless you are a pro - in which case yes, you need to play other pros. I don't want you in my game. Social or otherwise.

* Actually I am lying a little bit. I have played some games vs high Onyx / Champions. And even though I was way out of my class it was an awesome challenge just to survive! I just don't want to do it very often. A bit like opening the batting in cricket against someone a couple of divisions above you - except in that case there is a serious risk you are going to get hurt. Really badly. :)

Tetrafy wrote:
The rankjng system in h5 is terrible. It should be w/l only. You should be allowed to play in a to4 without being punished.
I thought ranking in H5 was pretty much W/L only (CSR > MMR). And isn't the advantage squarely with the team of four?
Tetrafy wrote:
SBMM is terribly implmented and always should be lightened in social. It has killed the cod community look at cold war everyone is quiting. Devs should look at theatest data you are making people quit because games aren't fun anymore. People play ranked if they want to rank up. You want people to take ranked seeious inplement it like h3 rank add inheritor ranks specific to ranked. Lower sbmm I dont need to play pros every other game in social. The rankjng system in h5 is terrible. It should be w/l only. You should be allowed to play in a to4 without being punished.
That's how H5 system is already?
Darwi wrote:
qlimm wrote:
Loose sbmm parameters in social hurts player retention. Just my experience, but whenever I get easy games I feel like I'm wasting time and whenever I get games where I have 99% chance of losing I end up just getting frustrated. Both scenarios usually lead to quitting the game and doing something else more worthwhile.
According to Josh Menke SBMM increases player retention. I think the big wave of games switching over to SBMM is due to that notion.
Ya, then we look at H5 and Cold War where no game is ever pure fun cause it's all a sweat fest of people with the same skill as you. Remove it or reduce it in social. If we want sweat, we will play ranked
or have a separate MMR for social like rocket league has. Social games where you play not sweaty will put you up against your level when not sweating
That makes sense.

More of a 'sweat' based match making - everyone is grouped on their skill base for the way they approach that type of game?

That would actually suit me. When I play social I tend to try things out. I'm happy to push a bit harder for the medal type kills. I'll end up dying stupidly because I try one of those ninja kills that I can never pull off. I'll grab the weapons that I'm not very good at (snipers for the loss). :)

How well does it actually work in Rocket League? Good close games?
Yeah, it works really well makes me feel like I have to pay attention but not lean on the edge of my chair wiping sweat off my brow. in ranked it only takes the highest-ranked player into account however in social it takes into account your lower level friend,little bro etc.
My dad gave an interesting suggestion one time (he's clueless to videos games lol - but sometimes good ideas come from unaware people of an industry.

He said.. why not take the top 2 players of each team, then allow those people to match, and the bottom two players of the team, will match with other bottom two players.

It'd make matchmaking algorithm more complex, and as a game dies out, harder to match (maybe..) but was an interesting suggestion.

The top two players of each team would keep getting matched with players who did good in their last game.. whereas the other two who didn't need to "prove" themself in the next match to play against better people.

(This opens a whole different can of worms, but wanted to share it.)
qlimm wrote:
Tetrafy wrote:
qlimm wrote:
Loose sbmm parameters in social hurts player retention. Just my experience, but whenever I get easy games I feel like I'm wasting time and whenever I get games where I have 99% chance of losing I end up just getting frustrated. Both scenarios usually lead to quitting the game and doing something else more worthwhile.
I guess you never played Social Slayer in Halo 3. Loose sbmm and everyone loved it 10 years post launch. Largest population in the game. People who say stuff like this are the reason our games have 10k populations. But guiz sbmm makes bad kids quit, oh it looks like the opposite to me. Cold war has spoken.
I said this because the creator of the current SBMM system has the data on quit rates and they increase sharply at a certain threshold of skill differential.
But hes also basing on a game that has 5 k population now. So perhaps he was wrong?
Tetrafy wrote:
SBMM is terribly implmented and always should be lightened in social. It has killed the cod community look at cold war everyone is quiting. Devs should look at theatest data you are making people quit because games aren't fun anymore. People play ranked if they want to rank up. You want people to take ranked seeious inplement it like h3 rank add inheritor ranks specific to ranked. Lower sbmm I dont need to play pros every other game in social. The rankjng system in h5 is terrible. It should be w/l only. You should be allowed to play in a to4 without being punished.
That's how H5 system is already?
Except you can't search 4s? And you never match all onyx. There will 100 percent be all onyx players on youll get 1 and a dimond and two gold like every game even searching as champs. Ive lost 10 csr for dropping 20kills and 5 deaths because I get matched with plats and golds that go neg 15. But Ill play in 4s alll night play 20 games and only get 20 csr its stupid.
Tetrafy wrote:
Tetrafy wrote:
SBMM is terribly implmented and always should be lightened in social. It has killed the cod community look at cold war everyone is quiting. Devs should look at theatest data you are making people quit because games aren't fun anymore. People play ranked if they want to rank up. You want people to take ranked seeious inplement it like h3 rank add inheritor ranks specific to ranked. Lower sbmm I dont need to play pros every other game in social. The rankjng system in h5 is terrible. It should be w/l only. You should be allowed to play in a to4 without being punished.
That's how H5 system is already?
Except you can't search 4s? And you never match all onyx. There will 100 percent be all onyx players on youll get 1 and a dimond and two gold like every game even searching as champs. Ive lost 10 csr for dropping 20kills and 5 deaths because I get matched with plats and golds that go neg 15. But Ill play in 4s alll night play 20 games and only get 20 csr its stupid.
was just referring to the bold and italicized portion of your statement.

I also share the same sediment in regards to matchmaking criteria in some regard...didnt know you couldn search in a team of 4 though...that kind of seems off/wrong.
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