Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

Secret dialog from Cortana in trailer

OP HaloCrysisKIA88

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The Cortana chip in Infinite has a different number. It feels like chief doesn't want to kill the evil Cortana as chief made a promise. Maybe it could be that chief wants to save her after what happened to her in Halo 4.
Ah, it is so refreshing to see the halo community not jump the gun an start the assumption game on the worst possible storytelling outcomes. JK thats exactly what they did and it gives me a headache to read. I will hold all opinions on the story arch and points until I see it all come together and exactly it means. It is one line of dialogue and yet all the doomsayers immediately start grabbing pitchforks. It's honestly quite sad. I do not think it is bad to state ones concerns, but the overall negative/hostile reaction I see in some posts is so sad.
ronnie42 wrote:
Firstly you're missing the point....343i have claimed there's sub-species, that's just a fact made canon in Halo since HW2...what's weird is even though this fact exists...the Arbiter looks nothing like his counter part, that's part of the reason why so many say they looked nothing like the same species.
No, I think you're just not understanding biological terms. "Sub-species" is the same thing as phenotype; they are still the same species. If you - and others - are saying that they look nothing like the same species, well that's just ignorance.

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2ndly what you said is not true....there's plenty of concept out there like this, this, and this but little harder due to find due the quantity of concept.
The first link you give is concept of a "Forerunner combat suit". It does not say Promethean, and it could very well be another rate of Forerunner. In fact that was very likely from far before Forerunners were very much fleshed out at all besides "Mysterious powerful alien race before". So in fact I am correct that Prometheans remain consistent in their concept art and aesthetic style. The Third link that you give repeats this image

The second link that you give is Halo Legends. Among it being a massive divide from the visual consistency of Halo (take, for example, their Sangheili from that segment), it was not drawn by either Bungie or 343 Industries. That specific artist studio was Studio 4°C. More to the point, according to Frank O'Connor in the audio commentary for the episode, all of the visual elements of Origins are formed from Cortana's concepts of the described events, thus rendering the depiction of the Forerunners ambiguous, especially since the episode clearly shows Cortana to be either rampant or borderline-rampant. Thus it is not a reliably canonical depiction.

Additionally, no Sangheili depiction matches original concept art for the Elites. Does that make Sangheili design wildly inconsistent? If you want that - wild inconsistency - you're barking up the wrong tree. In fact, the tree you should be raving about isn't Forerunner Prometheans or Sangheili or "343 is ruining continuity!" but rather the absolute fact that the Jiralhanae have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, NINE different looks.

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I, many others have given reasons why we dislike it...
Disliking something doesn't make it objectively bad. I dislike the D79-TC Pelican, that doesn't mean I don't understand it's aesthetic inspiration or think it's a bad design. And that's the problem that I'm having here, ronnie. "I don't like it" isn't being claimed. Rather, it's "The Halo Community (Big WE) thinks this is bad and we want old stuff!" Which (a) Incorrectly assumes to speak for me and people of like mind as me that do like the story and writing of Halo 4 and 5, (b) Doesn't give actual reasons for why something is bad, other than "it's different *hiss*", and (c) Hinders progress and improvement through a lack of constructive criticism.

If all you can do is parrot "popular view" then... Well, that speaks pretty plainly in and of itself.

Secondly the videos that you provided are dismissable in that the quoted issue is you saying that the Elites et al "changed species", and that they're nothing like the "Classic" depictions of them. Which plainly is not true, and the videos you link do nothing to prove this. The second video that you post is more geared towards the art style as a whole; as I said there, the art style look as though four years have passed - this is massively important. The graphical updates between the Bungie Halo games all take place within the same year. There isn't going to be much progression technologically, so it makes sense that things stay the same. Four years pass, and we have the future of the UNSC and Covenant species. The UNSC has progressed technologically. The Sangheili have fallen. Et cetera, et cetera. This must be consider when comparing how things look, I feel.
The first video starts off (after the annoying music) with making face-assumptions on a lot of the Covenant species - his claims on why the Jackals were called Jackals is pretty far out there. He should have just stopped at "they're scavengers" because that's about it for the name. His claim for the Hunters is largely ridiculous; they're no more deadly or ruthless than any other enemy that you face (in fact, they're among the easier to kill, even on Legendary,) and they're likely named Hunters because they took inspiration from the Hunters of Marathon. (He's also plainly wrong about their spikes allowing them to "telepathically communicate". The do so via a linked neural network; the spikes only indicate that they are part of a bond-brother pair.)

As for the Sangheili, there is a lot of fetishization around them. Something that is very clear in the first video that you link. "Brutish" Sangheili have existed before 343i took up Halo; just look at Ripa 'Moramee. Biologically, the Sangheili are not much more different. Their cranial structure is not so much larger than pre-Halo 4 designs to where they are considered a "new species". As shown with armor comparison pictures, biologically they are fine, and completely "Sangheili". He criticizes the mandibles, particularly claiming that their teeth would poke into their eye, yet to illustrate this shows a very odd angle which results in a deceptive picture; with clearer angles (1, 2, 3) it can be seen quite clearly that the Sangheili's mandible is both below where the eye is, cannot physically "poke" the eye, and even were it able to move in further, the teeth next to the eye are molar-shaped. It's about as "odd" from a Darwinian perspective as the tusks of a Babirousa.

Secondly, he criticizes the armor for having odd bits jutting out, making the helmets look odd, yet lays all of this at 343's feet. Despite the fact, and ignoring, that the Sangheili armor saw massive expansion in Halo Reach, and added new layers of depth to their culture. Moving on with the armor he criticizes it's overall design compared to previous iterations, ignoring that the Hierarchical Covenant is broken, and the Sangheili do not have the means for equipment upkeep as they once did. It is stated that the armor, weapons, and vehicles being used by Jul's Covenant are either old, outdated, or stolen. This is inevitably going to lead to inferior designs and "looks". With the feet, the Sangheili feet for Halo 4 and 5 follow the design of Halo 3, where they're less like hooves and more saurian. They appear as bog as they do due to the armor structure, which in comparison is not that much more different than Halo 3.

Thirdly, considering the breaking of the Hierarchical Covenant. Xperia keeps going on about the "cardinal traits" of the Sangheili, listed as Noble, Elegant, Graceful, and Stealthily Deadly. Bear in mind that this is under the Hierarchical Covenant. Yet there are two words, only two, that are so very intrinsic to Sangheili culture and being that are surprisingly absent from Xperia's list; Tradition and Honor. We have several examples of moments when the Sangheili are not so noble, resorting to assassination and coup attempts. As is Tradition, to preserve the Honor of their bloodline. His list is well and fine, for Covenant Sangheili, but not Sangheili with no benefit of the Hierarchy. Once the Covenant was broken the first time, and the Prophets overthrown, the Sangheili became a people without purpose or being. They were lost to themselves, scrambling to pick up broken pieces of culture and regain their Tradition. The Sangheili of Halo 4 and Halo 5 perfectly embody this, and visually reinforce this cultural Dark Age.
Next he brings in the cutscenes, and how the Sangheili move in them being "wrong." This is a flawed method of judgement, and I'll get into why. But in the cutscenes we never really see a Sangheili in combat before Halo 4. The closest we get is in Halo 2, when the Arbiter ambushes Johnson and Miranda; even then, he's roaring and throwing punches, taking a few hits himself. His movements are no more lithe or athletic than that of Ghek.

He brings up the classic arguments against: the Sangheili during Jul's assassination and the Sangheili at the beginning of Blue Team. The Zealot that Vale fights against is one of his noteworthy "embarrassments", but consider that it's getting shot in the face as it tries to advance on her. He also mentions Jul; well, Jul was a leader, but he was not a warrior. And it shows. Neither was he "noble", as Xperia claims; he was a con artist keeping up a game of pretend to satisfy the zealous hordes. So why are cutscenes a poor measure of representation? Particularly for combat, they exist for a narrative purpose, and the Spartans are the good guys. Just like how in Halo 4 the Knights didn't have shields, in Halo 5 the Sangheili are scaled back to let the Spartans shine. It doesn't make for good narrative to have your heroes get their butts kicked.

And with the Field Marshall he criticizes their voices, saying their too deep and "villainous". Yet they're not really any more deep than in Halo 3, and far less animalistic than in Halo Reach. What's more, in Halo 2 - which he considers the "pinnacle of the Elites" - the Sangheili are more often than not your allies. Rtas certainly is, when he's encountered, so of course he's going to have a more sympathetic and regal voice. He is a "good guy". And yes, it's that simple; in Halo 4 and 5 the Sangheili are villains, so they're going to sound like villains.

As for his movements, it's a matter of perspective. He moves slower, but really no more different than Ripa 'Moramee, and to me his gait speaks more to arrogance and authority (both things that are not foreign to the Sangheili,) than it does to being "brutish." He's walking around like he owns the place.

The cutscenes that he shows have zero combat in them. The only one with a death in them are Thel assassinating Truth, and in that he doesn't really act graceful at all; he grabs Truth by the neck and stabs him from behind. That's not even really honorable.
For the third video that you post (Late Night Gaming), I'm just going to put what I put on the page. @4:40-ish... No. You can't just "shut off the lore" bit, as there is nothing to even suggest that it was an "afterthought". I think this is a common complaint, but with no basis; the lore establishes much in this regard. Promethean Knights "weren't around" because they are controlled by a Promethean Warrior Servant - namely the UrDidact, and temporarily the Librarian's directives. Prior to this, the only Forerunner constructs that we've been fighting have been Sentinels - Aggressor and Enforcer types - as well as Monitors. Forerunner constructs that are intended to maintain a Halo Installation (or the Ark Installation,) and fight off any threat to the best of their ability. On Requiem, there are Promethean Knights, and with the release of the UrDidact they become more prevalent.

Enforcer Sentinels are not intended to be main-line fighting machines against the Flood, neither are Aggressor Sentinels. Both are intended to maintain outbreaks on Halo Installations, with Aggressors being the first response, and Enforcers only deployed during massive outbreaks. Promethean Crawlers, contrary to your claim around 6:58, are not mass-created by the Forerunners, but were designed by the UrDidact to serve as fodder forces for his Promethean Knights - of which, the first were created from his personal Warrior-Servants. Especially with your comparison to a tank, what you're actually more looking at here would be akin to a tank, complimented by ground forces and drone fighters, all directed by a single General.

With the Watcher, why did it need a face? Probably for the same reason the UrDidact gave the Knights faces; to terrify. The Lore comes into play here again, as these Promethean elements are meant to be *different*. They are supposed to stand out and aside, because the UrDidact stood out and aside from the Forerunner Ecumene. This was even established in Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary, via the Terminals, when Halo 4 was still in development. Giving them a radically different look enforces the sentiment that they - and ultimately the UrDidact - are unlike any threat that we've faced, and pose a more terrifying threat than standard Sentinels, who now provide a comforting presence through familiarity. Even the Constructor Sentinel in Halo 5 is familiar and similar to those seen in Halo 2 and 3, and serves as an ally through it's familiarity.

As for the Grunts, they had visible mouths in Halo 3, though you had to knock the mask off. And they were horrifying. Ugly as sin, and just as goblin-like in appearance. Nostalgia calls them cute, scrutiny reveals them to have always been goblins. Neither are the Sangheili inherently more brutish than the Jiralhanae - you show ONE example, and ignore other examples where they speak just as well as they did in Halo 2 or 3. They have always been described as being cruel and brutish, especially towards Unggoy, so even that example from Halo 5 doesn't deviate much at all. It does not stand to reason that a diverse and intelligent race can't have it's share of brutes and thugs.
With this said, I do think Halo Wars 2 was a good mixture of the two styles. I don't care if the style changes again (or reverts), but I disagree that the styles in Halo 4 and 5 were bad, or unfitting for Halo.
"It makes Halo 4 and 5 irrelevant. Cortana being shoehorned in and being all back to normal is lazy and uncreative."

I really don't think everything is going back to normal, I think that it's either a new Cortana or a fragment of her which got separated at the end of halo 4.
ronnie42 wrote:
It's pretty clear we'll never agree on this, most of your reasoning's makes no sense.........I'll say agree to disagree. You're reasoning for 'trying to start' a debate over a basic discussion is confusing.
A "new" Cortana being introduced in Infinite could actually lead to a very interesting plot element that (IMO) has far more potential than just finding a fragment of the original Cortana that didn't go Super-Halsey (I agree with the opinion that that's what the current Cortana really is: the "ends justify the means" approach of Halsey taken to a galactic extreme). .A new Cortana (as hinted in Halo 4), could pose some interesting questions about AI individuality in the Halo mythos: was there ever anything truely unique about Cortana or was she just the progenitor of an (albeit brilliant) AI type. What's more, how would the Chief reconcile with having that old familiar voice back in his head, and yet knowing it isn't quite "his" Cortana. Without spoiling the movie too much, Blade Runner 2049 tackles this scenario rather brilliantly and I would love to see a similar approach in Infinite.
"It makes Halo 4 and 5 irrelevant. Cortana being shoehorned in and being all back to normal is lazy and uncreative."

I really don't think everything is going back to normal, I think that it's either a new Cortana or a fragment of her which got separated at the end of halo 4.
Yes what I fear with all that "spiritual reboot" mentality and all the criticism 343 received over the years, may have exausted them to the point that they won't even try to make creative decisions anymore, because people would complain about everything wanting their "glory days" back, so for them if they reboot Halo, it is going to restart the same way Halo Combat Evolved did, the return of the status quo, Chief and Cortana back again fighting evil enemies with minimum changes. It is safer for 343 to play safe and just earn the fans back with nostalgia than with creativity, since the latter, for the good or bad, did not had the results they were hoping for. So 343 will be like Disney that instead of creating new stories, they make live actions of classic movies to earn instant praise because of nostalgia.
Again, just assumptions, I might fall flat on my face and I really hope I'm wrong, but it just a behavior that can happen and it cannot be ignored.
"It makes Halo 4 and 5 irrelevant. Cortana being shoehorned in and being all back to normal is lazy and uncreative."

I really don't think everything is going back to normal, I think that it's either a new Cortana or a fragment of her which got separated at the end of halo 4.
Yes what I fear with all that "spiritual reboot" mentality and all the criticism 343 received over the years, may have exausted them in a point that they won't even try to make creative decisions anymore, because people would complain about everything wanting their "glory days" back, so for them if they reboot Halo, it is going to restart the same way Halo Combat Evolved did, the return of the status quo, Chief and Cortana back again fighting evil enemies with minimum changes. It is safer for 343 to play safe and just earn the fans back with nostalgia than with creativity, since the latter, for the good or bad, did not had the results they were hoping. So 343 will be like Disney that instead of creating new stories, they make live actons of classic movies to earn instant praise because of nostalgia.
Again, just assumptions, I might fall flat on my face and I really hope I'm wrong, but it just a behavior that can happen and it cannot be ignored.
You're over exaggerating...this is a spiritual reboot because the series has lost it's identity and the mess from 4,5 story lead to too many conflicting issues that generally made the series a bit of a mess so sometimes it's best to take a step back before moving forward or 'history' will repeat itself.

We literally know nothing about Halo Infinite and you're making assumptions. They need some breathing room to rethink where to go with the IP and well after how bad Halo 4,5 was....they definitely need it. At the end of the day some fans will never be happy no matter what 343i does....it's either people getting mad because there forcing their own 're-envision' or people complaining because there trying to make it too like 'classic Halo'. You're grasping at straws if you think it's going to end up like what Disney did to SW. You're making it sound like there doomed to fail no matter what they do and that type of believe is toxic and depressing to think about.

Also the Nostalgia excuse is nonsense....you, everyone is here because of 'nostalgia' regardless of what you think the future of Halo should be, it shouldn't be used to chase the next 'trend'.
Maybe I'm exaggerating and yes I agree 343 can't please everyone. My only hope is they are moving now to a consistent journey that dares to make definive choices. All changes they made past and forward are canon and I hope they don't start erasing it again. We already know when they changed too many things in Halo 4 it caused many problems, even I believe some changes were for the good the overall impact of those choices were negative.
Maybe I'm exaggerating and yes I agree 343 can't please everyone. My only hope is they are moving now to a consistent journey that dares to make definive choices. All changes they made past and forward are canon and I hope they don't start erasing it again. We already know when they changed too many things in Halo 4 it caused many problems, even I believe some changes were for the good the overall impact of those choices were negative.
Yeh I think they might be, I believe it's part of the reason why they were merging Halo Wars old and new art styles into Halo Wars 2. Which is why we seem to be having old/new Cortana so fans can have the classic and modern experience...basically it's like the phrase "we can have cake, eat it". Though there are things that do need to change like the Elites designs but I guess that can be explained as sub-species like how the grunts have different species in Halo Wars 2 to explain why there 2 different variations of the grunt...though that is a lot of work so I suspect certain parts of the 'modern look' while disappear for some.
I'll go ahead and post in here just to participate in the community discussion, although I don't really have anything new to add that hasn't been said.

It's worth heavily emphasizing that without any other context, this audio alone doesn't really tell us much. There's still a lot of different directions it could go. We still don't know for sure what's really going on.

That said, yeah, it sure does at least seem to offer some more implicit evidence for the Cortana 2.0 theory - there'll be two of her in Infinite, the old, evil one and a new, innocent one. Where the latter comes from, who knows - maybe Halsey creates this one fresh after Halo 5, or maybe this one has been floating around in a computer somewhere since the days of the original trilogy, and part of Infinite's campaign involves the Chief retrieving her. To be honest, I've been in this theory's camp ever since last year's E3 trailer showed us the serial number on the chip. (Meaning I think that's what's going to happen, not that I support it.)

I do comprehend WHY 343 might do this. They know they screwed up with Halo 5, or at least they know how massively unpopular it was with the fans to turn Cortana evil. They mean well. They think they're fixing everything. This could put us on a path to redemption where eventually, Cortana's riding around in John's head again like nothing ever happened, and that would be part of the "spiritual reboot" theme they're going for. They'll even argue it was foreshadowed in Halo 4 with the whole "They'll pair you with another Cortana model..." stuff. And they know that this move will be popular with the majority of casual fans, who don't put a whole ton of thought into the quality of the writing.

But it will be disappointing to the more serious lore fans. Halo's universe has always treated smart AIs as fully sentient, synthetic lifeforms. Individuals. People. With personalities and character and identity. The more we play around with this kind of thing, the more it reduces Cortana to being nothing more than a glorified app that can be copied, altered, updated, deleted, re-created, etc. at will. She's nothing more than a sophisticated future version of Microsoft Office, rather than an artificial life form and a fully fleshed character. It further denigrates the personhood she fought so hard to claim in Halo 4's story. Although then again that was ruined the minute they brought her back at all, I guess.
ronnie42 wrote:
ronnie42 wrote:
It's pretty clear we'll never agree on this, most of your reasoning's makes no sense.........I'll say agree to disagree. You're reasoning for 'trying to start' a debate over a basic discussion is confusing.
LOL - the guy laid out a very detailed argument, steeped in knowledge of Halo lore. You don't just get to declare "most of your argument makes no sense" while simultaneously offering an "agree to disagree".
ronnie42 wrote:
ronnie42 wrote:
It's pretty clear we'll never agree on this, most of your reasoning's makes no sense.........I'll say agree to disagree. You're reasoning for 'trying to start' a debate over a basic discussion is confusing.
LOL - the guy laid out a very detailed argument, steeped in knowledge of Halo lore. You don't just get to declare "most of your argument makes no sense" while simultaneously offering an "agree to disagree".
Just no, please say you're joking... making nonsensical debates is where I draw the line. I quoted several video's explaining why a majority of people dislike the changes and why the changes are wrong.

  • To be clear....the fact is there's modern Halo and classic Halo.
  • All designs of the Elite for example are all designed with a consistency in all of Bungie's designs, even with minor changes.
  • 4,5 designs are Brute like, do not contain any of the personality's and the natural anatomy is wrong and widely refereed to as sounding like 'Brutes'.
  • While the Halo 5 Elites are slow, not agile and general walk like Brutes....meanwhile classic Halo shows them as agile and moving nothing like 4,5 Elites.
  • Another example sure Cortana had similar designs but generally she's usually 'see-through', less human like to help give the impression that's she's an AI, not human while the evolved Cortana looked actually human and for me she barely looked recognisable...if it wasn't for her 'iconic' voice I wouldn't have been sure who she was.
And yet the person goes on acting like there's no consistency in the series...despite there being facts to prove otherwise.
ronnie42 wrote:
It's pretty clear we'll never agree on this, most of your reasoning's makes no sense.........I'll say agree to disagree. You're reasoning for 'trying to start' a debate over a basic discussion is confusing.
'Kay... I absolutely refuse to "agree to disagree". You and the videos that I provided are wrong where it's factually shown, and mistaken where it's opinion-based, and I've shown why in three posts due to character limit. Unless you can show where or how my points "make no sense," it'd be best to just keep that to yourself.

As to my "reason for starting a debate", this stems from you claiming that the Covenant "changed species", and progressed from there.

ronnie42 wrote:
making nonsensical debates is where I draw the line. I quoted several video's explaining why a majority of people dislike the changes and why the changes are wrong.
Just because you quoted three videos (two directly applicable to the issue at hand of Sangheili design) doesn't mean you're automatically going to be right. Neither is my argument nonsensical; it is fact-based and backed up by several lore-based examples, photos, and comparative examples. I think you just can't refute them.

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All designs of the Elite for example are all designed with a consistency in all of Bungie's designs, even with minor changes.
And Halo 4 and 5 retain this consistent biological design, with changes no more drastic than what has been done in any Bungie game. The most radical change is Halo 3 to Halo Reach, but we don't near much about that now do we? Neither are the Sangheili now "brutish" any more than they've always been. You and Xperia might complain about their voices compared to Rtas and Thel, but what of any other random Sangheili pre-Halo 4? Their voices aren't so sultry and "noble". In fact, they're deep and growling. You again try to show Rtas 'Vadumee as a "pinnacle example" of a Sangheili, ignoring that of both Ripa 'Moramee and the fact that Rtas is, when encountered, an ally. His voice, as a major character ally, is meant to comfort. Compare to that of Thel 'Vadam in Halo 5, and that of Mahkee 'Chava.

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While the Halo 5 Elites are slow, not agile and general walk like Brutes...
As I stated in the essay that I wrote out last night, cutscenes have a degree of narrative shift. For example, when Promethean Knights had no shields, only when Palmer is shooting them. The purpose is to accentuate the main characters, to make them look more heroic. Not to run them through the wringer unless it is narratively relevant. To clarify; in that scene we see the Chief start off in question, with his motives relatively unknown even to the player. He starts the fight getting his armor handed to him. Then the narrative shifts, and he gains the upper hand on Locke, indicating the moment where there's a shift in narrative to where Blue Team's motives come to more light and their actions validated.

In taking the Sangheili's "behavior" as 100% factual in cutscenes such as that, you're setting yourself up for failure and putting forth a flawed complaint.

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meanwhile classic Halo shows them as agile and moving nothing like 4,5 Elites.
Again, you're firstly using a cutscene that is meant to accentuate the main characters (Rtas and Thel), and secondly doesn't feature any combat. Look at the Sangheili in-game, and you'll find the same agility and skill.

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Another example sure Cortana had similar designs but generally she's usually 'see-through', less human like to help give the impression that's she's an AI, not human while the evolved Cortana looked actually human and for me she barely looked recognisable...
You're being incredibly melodramatic. Not to mention that Cortana hasn't been "see through" since Halo 3.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.
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Is there a shortage in the budget for a quality writing department? Or at the very least, a decent one?
What was so bad about this
It makes Halo 4 and 5 irrelevant. Cortana being shoehorned in and being all back to normal is lazy and uncreative.
Perfect, Halo 4 and 5 should be irrelevant. Having a fragment of Cortana as normal is a perfect way to get back to a story line that doesn't suck.
No, it is lazy at best. If 343 really wants to reboot Halo to the safe spot and kill creativity with it, it is better for them to make at least a little effort to finish the saga satisfactorily. Halo may not get another title if Infinite goes with this route.
No, your opinion is lazy at best. A safe space would be keeping with the current dung heap of a story line. If Halo goes with the story line that is hinted, Halo WILL get more titles, if it doesn't, well, it will likely lose more of the quality fans in favor of the garbage ones.
Lol.
There are no such thing as "quality fans" and "garbage fans". Everybody is a fan, everybody wants Halo to thrive.
ronnie42 wrote:
It's pretty clear we'll never agree on this, most of your reasoning's makes no sense.........I'll say agree to disagree. You're reasoning for 'trying to start' a debate over a basic discussion is confusing.
'Kay... I absolutely refuse to "agree to disagree". You and the videos that I provided are wrong where it's factually shown, and mistaken where it's opinion-based, and I've shown why in three posts due to character limit. Unless you can show where or how my points "make no sense," it'd be best to just keep that to yourself.

I've already stated facts, at this point I don't see how this conversation can go on any further because nothing of what you've said is coherent and as I've said multiply times now "makes no sense".
Anyway regardless of whether we disagree...I think I'm done trying since I feel like I'm going in a loop with trying to explain this to you repeatably about what I feel should be basic to understand, if you don't understand any of this then there's nothing else that can said before. As for 3 pages of 'incoherent' rants...yeh I think that's where I draw the line and not going this discuss further with you because we seem to be stuck in a loop.
ronnie42 wrote:
I've already stated facts,
You linked opinions.

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at this point I don't see how this conversation can go on any further because nothing of what you've said is coherent and as I've said multiply times now "makes no sense".
Which says to me that you didn't bother reading it.

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I think I'm done trying
To try, you have to actually put forth some effot. You have not done this.
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