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The return of classic movement mechanics?

OP A So So Sniper

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Battle wrote:
I honestly think Infinite will have sprint because 343 seems to have learned their lesson about misleading advertisements. Also they said the discover hope trailer is the opening scene. I don't think its too much of a stretch to assume sprint is in Inifinite since at the Chief puts his gun away then sprints out of the pelican. Is this a fair assumption?
In Halo 2 Chief put his gun away and was running away from a Phantom blasting the entire Temple.

He also jumps in the water and doesn't die, despite what happens when you do it yourself in gameplay.
Honestly, they should have both versions in Infinite. I'd rather have the option there, than not have it at all. The sandbox and maps would have to be tuned differently for both styles, though, which 343 may not want to do, due to time constraints and resource management. I would be happy with an amalgamation, mainly sprint, clamber, and slide, as long as duel wielding makes a return. But I would prefer both types to be available.
Sprint, thrust, slide, clamber & stabilize need to be in the next game. Ground Pound & Spartan Charge should be for campaign only or just be completely removed in general. I can't go back to walk, jump, shoot. Majority of the people complaining about enhanced mobility aren't using their resources properly. They aren't using the mechanics properly.
Unknown wrote:
Battle wrote:
Unknown wrote:
Battle wrote:
Unknown wrote:
Battle wrote:
If sprint isn't really needed or wanted or even considered a strategy to use when out gunned. Even nerfed to be limited or stopped due to damage. Why not hold that same standard to other mechanics? Lets say Sprint is the same as walking from point A to B just faster (not comparing remake maps from originals in older games).
. The same can be said for Reloading, the reload button is the same as empting the magazine then the game auto reloads. The gun gets reloaded either way so why have a reload button? Or since reloading with the button is an extra mechanic why not nerf it by taking longer if under fire suppression? Or totally cancelled if you take damage?
. Maybe the same could be said for jumping? What if you take damage as you jump? Could that knock someone out of their jump? Then people couldn't "halo jump" as a defense while getting shot. Or why even have jump? Couldn't the level designers make every level walkable?
. I'm sure there's more nerfing or removal that could be done to the mechanics in the game, but why only hold sprint to a different stanard then all the other mechanics? Judge all equally.
.
We don't want nerfed. We want it removed.
You missed my point. There are other mechanics like reload, jump, zoom, etc. That could be removed just like sprint. All the same points people use for their desire to remove one mechanic could be used to removed other mechanics aswell. The people trying to make some kind of justifaction for their opinion should use that same reasoning for all issues. Otherwise they invalidate their opinions from technical facts on gameplay to simply its what they want, and they just to be heard.
However if the same people that want sprint removed could explain why reload, jump, zoom should be removed aswell? Maybe I would accept that opinion more easily.

Why shouldn't we remove reload? Guns reload on their own when they are empty, so why the reload button?

If level designers want higher levels they can just use ramps, right? Why have jump?

If game designers just make a weapon like the sniper automatically zoomed in when its equipped. Why have zoom? Why have two zooming levels?

H5 added seat switching in a vehicle. Why keep that?

A grenade switching feature, why have that?

If someone could argue these points to all be removed along with sprint I might cosider them to have justification in the points they are trying to make.
You're comparing a new, alien, and foreign mechanic like sprint which fundamentally changed Halo, to basic actions like reloading and jumping. This is the most desperate argument for sprint I've heard yet. I get it, not only do.you want sprint, but you want it how it was in Halo 4; sprinting around the map without consequences. There's nothing wrong with your opinion. In fact, I'd rather 343 go all out and change everything about Halo like they did with 4. At least then Halo would "sort of" be it's own thing, and cater to one group. It's much better than mix matching like Halo 5, trying to please both crowds.
I am trying to keep my opinon out of it. I haven't posted my opinion how I like or dislike sprint in months. So why are you trying to validate your point with your own assumption of my opinion on sprint? This is why I have a hard time taking most of these arguments seriously.

Sprint isn't that new to gaming. It isn't foreign or alien to gaming. Neither is reload or jump. However can you explain how sprint changes gameplay negatively in a way that the same can't be said for jump? The first first person gameplay in a game was just walking around in a maze. No sprint, no jump, no guns, no reload, just walking. The game was Maze in 1973. The first addition to the game was the ability to play with a second person. Not jumping or sprint. Then came the guns. So if sprint is new, alien, and foreign. I would argue so is everything besides walking around.

I understand my point is about first person shooter gameplay in general and yours is specifically about Halo. However my main point is that all arguents for the removal of sprint can be used as arguements to remove other so called basic mechanics like jump. On the revese side the same could be said about keeping sprint along with jump and other mechanics.

As far as Halo "sort of" being its own thing? Its classified as a FPS and like it or not, sprint in FPS's is a thing. Not that is right or wrong, good or bad. In my opinion, its Halo's lore and epic scale of storytelling in all different mediums such as the books, and comics that makes it its "own thing" more than weither sprint is in gameplay or not.
It's alien and new to Halo. Not COD, not Battlefield...Halo. That was truly a strawman If I ever saw one. You're defending sprint so it's obvious you like it. You didn't have to come right out and say it. There's nothing wrong with that opinion either.
There are dozens of videos of people explaining why sprint doesn't work for Halo elsewhere, and there are hundreds of points being made here. There's nothing more to say about it.
And then you brought up lore. Why do guys keep mentioning lore as if it matters in any way whatsoever? Should Jerome be able to take out two scarabs online in Halo Wars 2 on his own just because he can do it in the books? It's a stupid argument.
At this point it's not even new to Halo. Since sprint was included for quite literally half of the franchise's lifetime, it's unlikely and implausible that they'll just remove it.

If 343i have been listening, they're probably looking into new ways to balance it that would (presumably) satisfy both parties, for and against.
Revaci wrote:
Unknown wrote:
Battle wrote:
Unknown wrote:
Battle wrote:
Unknown wrote:
Battle wrote:
If sprint isn't really needed or wanted or even considered a strategy to use when out gunned. Even nerfed to be limited or stopped due to damage. Why not hold that same standard to other mechanics? Lets say Sprint is the same as walking from point A to B just faster (not comparing remake maps from originals in older games).
. The same can be said for Reloading, the reload button is the same as empting the magazine then the game auto reloads. The gun gets reloaded either way so why have a reload button? Or since reloading with the button is an extra mechanic why not nerf it by taking longer if under fire suppression? Or totally cancelled if you take damage?
. Maybe the same could be said for jumping? What if you take damage as you jump? Could that knock someone out of their jump? Then people couldn't "halo jump" as a defense while getting shot. Or why even have jump? Couldn't the level designers make every level walkable?
. I'm sure there's more nerfing or removal that could be done to the mechanics in the game, but why only hold sprint to a different stanard then all the other mechanics? Judge all equally.
.
We don't want nerfed. We want it removed.
You missed my point. There are other mechanics like reload, jump, zoom, etc. That could be removed just like sprint. All the same points people use for their desire to remove one mechanic could be used to removed other mechanics aswell. The people trying to make some kind of justifaction for their opinion should use that same reasoning for all issues. Otherwise they invalidate their opinions from technical facts on gameplay to simply its what they want, and they just to be heard.
However if the same people that want sprint removed could explain why reload, jump, zoom should be removed aswell? Maybe I would accept that opinion more easily.

Why shouldn't we remove reload? Guns reload on their own when they are empty, so why the reload button?

If level designers want higher levels they can just use ramps, right? Why have jump?

If game designers just make a weapon like the sniper automatically zoomed in when its equipped. Why have zoom? Why have two zooming levels?

H5 added seat switching in a vehicle. Why keep that?

A grenade switching feature, why have that?

If someone could argue these points to all be removed along with sprint I might cosider them to have justification in the points they are trying to make.
You're comparing a new, alien, and foreign mechanic like sprint which fundamentally changed Halo, to basic actions like reloading and jumping. This is the most desperate argument for sprint I've heard yet. I get it, not only do.you want sprint, but you want it how it was in Halo 4; sprinting around the map without consequences. There's nothing wrong with your opinion. In fact, I'd rather 343 go all out and change everything about Halo like they did with 4. At least then Halo would "sort of" be it's own thing, and cater to one group. It's much better than mix matching like Halo 5, trying to please both crowds.
At this point it's not even new to Halo. Since sprint was included for quite literally half of the franchise's lifetime, it's unlikely and implausible that they'll just remove it.

If 343i have been listening, they're probably looking into new ways to balance it that would (presumably) satisfy both parties, for and against.
The only thing that would satisfy the anti-sprint crowd is to be able to move and shoot at all times, by allowing to shoot while sprinting you make the default speed worthless and the game feel clunky, at that point buffing move speed, strafe acceleration and field of view is the proper solution. Therefore there is no compromise. High kill times and cat and mouse gameplay don't mix. The run and gun CoD style works great in instant killtime games, as sprinting is weaker than base speed, the opposite is true in Halo. Sprint is a solution to a problem a game poses, sprint was included in Halo to chase trends, not solve but create problems, it was done haphazardly. At least in Reach jetpack and evade kept it in check. Pull off the bandaid and radically alter Halo, start with the classics as a base and try new things, not undermine what was fun and underdeliver on new content.
Being REALISTIC. It WILL have enhanced mobility. Along with -Yoink- Micro-transactions. There is NOTHING I want more than for Halo to go back to it's roots. But, it won't. The micro-transactions are already confirmed. And I believe the reason we haven't seen any game play yet, is because of the enhanced mobility. I really, REALLY hope I am wrong. But I don't think I am :'(
Whether or not Sprint/Enhanced mobility is in Infinite, I'm thinking the PC modding community will eventually get around to changing things for people who prefer one or the other. Still, just building the playable spaces around one movement speed would be the smoothest gameplay wise.
As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?
Classic movement doesn't have to be slow, also across maps that have been in classic and new halos, even with sprinting it actually takes longer to get across the map
Guess I missed all the juicy discussions.

But here's my 2 cents.

Classic movememt mechanics doesn't take as much skill as H5's movement. In that respect, I like there to be a skill gap in Infinite movement mechanics (so no to classic movement)
fuzzyyogi wrote:
Classic movememt mechanics doesn't take as much skill as H5's movement.
Because pressing a button when there is noone around an I want to go fast is insanely challenging?
fuzzyyogi wrote:
Classic movememt mechanics doesn't take as much skill as H5's movement.
Because pressing a button when there is noone around an I want to go fast is insanely challenging?
No. Cuz chaining together intricate movement mechanics to gain positional advantage over your enemy is more demanding in h5 than classic halo.

I elaborated more here
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/29568daf8cd14083bd1b70a810bf3581/topics/halo-sprint-evolved/fa7b90ab-cb32-4d92-9354-1fefd490a048/posts?page=5#post92

Or you can check out "shyway" YouTube channel which illustrates the depth to H5s mechanics.
fuzzyyogi wrote:
No. Cuz chaining together intricate movement mechanics to gain positional advantage over your enemy is more demanding in h5 than classic halo.

I elaborated more here
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/29568daf8cd14083bd1b70a810bf3581/topics/halo-sprint-evolved/fa7b90ab-cb32-4d92-9354-1fefd490a048/posts?page=5#post92

Or you can check out "shyway" YouTube channel which illustrates the depth to H5s mechanics.
As you say, it's about chaining different gimmicks together, and that's what I took from that youtubers vids as well. All of those trick jumps exploit various "glitches" of other movement mechanics and/or map geometry. None of it sees to be tied to sprint per se only through mechanics that are tied to sprint in H5. Technically you could have all of these mechanics without sprint (I can't remember who it was but someone on here had a concept of keeping all SAs but sprint).
Plus liking sprint because it can be chained into other moves that can be exploited for some button combos isn't a good reason to speak in favour of sprint for the next game. Halo 3s gameplay is basically H2s with some balancing tweaks but H2s button combos didn't carry over to H3. Even if HI is to H5 what H2 was to H3, I wouldn't be too sure that all those little tricks will still work.
You could have button combos without forcing sprint into the game as well.
Don't get me wrong those are some neat looking trick jumps but it's nothing I'd be interested in personally. Adding stuff just to make something more demanding isn't necessarily the best idea either. Including Gears' wall bouncing would no doubt add a new, "more demanding" mechanic and I enjoy it in Gears but it's nothing I'd like to see in Halo.
fuzzyyogi wrote:
No. Cuz chaining together intricate movement mechanics to gain positional advantage over your enemy is more demanding in h5 than classic halo.

I elaborated more here
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/29568daf8cd14083bd1b70a810bf3581/topics/halo-sprint-evolved/fa7b90ab-cb32-4d92-9354-1fefd490a048/posts?page=5#post92

Or you can check out "shyway" YouTube channel which illustrates the depth to H5s mechanics.
As you say, it's about chaining different gimmicks together, and that's what I took from that youtubers vids as well. All of those trick jumps exploit various "glitches" of other movement mechanics and/or map geometry. None of it sees to be tied to sprint per se only through mechanics that are tied to sprint in H5. Technically you could have all of these mechanics without sprint (I can't remember who it was but someone on here had a concept of keeping all SAs but sprint).
Plus liking sprint because it can be chained into other moves that can be exploited for some button combos isn't a good reason to speak in favour of sprint for the next game. Halo 3s gameplay is basically H2s with some balancing tweaks but H2s button combos didn't carry over to H3. Even if HI is to H5 what H2 was to H3, I wouldn't be too sure that all those little tricks will still work.
You could have button combos without forcing sprint into the game as well.
Don't get me wrong those are some neat looking trick jumps but it's nothing I'd be interested in personally. Adding stuff just to make something more demanding isn't necessarily the best idea either. Including Gears' wall bouncing would no doubt add a new, "more demanding" mechanic and I enjoy it in Gears but it's nothing I'd like to see in Halo.
We're going off my topic here. All I said was H5s movement mechanic as a whole is more demanding and skillful than classic movement. Whether you think those are gimmicks, or whether they can be achieved without sprint is a different argument.

For example
Snakebite vs snipedown? Who would you say had the better movement in classic halo?

Classic movement does not have a skill gap in movement mechanics. Where as H5 movement does. And that's why I like H5s movement.
fuzzyyogi wrote:
Classic movement does not have a skill gap in movement mechanics. Where as H5 movement does. And that's why I like H5s movement.
This is obviously not true since not only strafing obviously a movement skill, but otherwise trick jumping would not have been a thing until Halo 5. And I don't mean this just in a technically-correct-but-irrelevant sort of way nor am I suggesting that turrets and traffic cones are meaningful elements of map design, but that these tricks exemplify elements of timing and creative use of game physics and map geometry that would not exist if the mechanics didn't afford for significant degree of movement skill.

Nothing in classic Halo prevents you from creating map geometry that encourages exploration and skillful chaining of jumps, but at the same time, because of the limited movement range players have, nothing prevents you from creating a map that doesn't demonstrate any of this if you don't even acknowledge the possibility. Bungie never did, which is why we don't see classic Halo as very movement oriented. In contrast, because Halo 5 gives players such a large range of movement—a lot of which is accessible only via button combinations that require dexterity—it's difficult to make a map in the game that doesn't demonstrate the movement skill in the game, the trade-off being that you, as a map designer, have less control over player movement. Not to mention that in designing a new set of movement mechanics, the map designers of Halo 5 were forced to think of the problem of movement and were therefore in a much better position to work with what they had.

I'm not going to claim Halo 5 doesn't have significantly more movement techniques the player can execute than classic Halo, because due to the number of different Spartan Abilities it obviously has. But people tend to place disproportionate emphasis on the importance of movement mechanics vs. map geometry when it comes to designing movement oriented gameplay. I think better results than Halo 5 could be achieved with a more conservative movement mechanic sandbox and better understanding of the mechanics and map design. Unless of course if you place disproportionate importance on the dexterity of pressing as many different buttons in quick succession as possible. In that case you'd rightly think the more mechanics the better.
tsassi wrote:
fuzzyyogi wrote:
Classic movement does not have a skill gap in movement mechanics. Where as H5 movement does. And that's why I like H5s movement.
This is obviously not true since not only strafing obviously a movement skill, but otherwise trick jumping would not have been a thing until Halo 5. And I don't mean this just in a technically-correct-but-irrelevant sort of way nor am I suggesting that turrets and traffic cones are meaningful elements of map design, but that these tricks exemplify elements of timing and creative use of game physics and map geometry that would not exist if the mechanics didn't afford for significant degree of movement skill.

Nothing in classic Halo prevents you from creating map geometry that encourages exploration and skillful chaining of jumps, but at the same time, because of the limited movement range players have, nothing prevents you from creating a map that doesn't demonstrate any of this if you don't even acknowledge the possibility. Bungie never did, which is why we don't see classic Halo as very movement oriented. In contrast, because Halo 5 gives players such a large range of movement—a lot of which is accessible only via button combinations that require dexterity—it's difficult to make a map in the game that doesn't demonstrate the movement skill in the game, the trade-off being that you, as a map designer, have less control over player movement. Not to mention that in designing a new set of movement mechanics, the map designers of Halo 5 were forced to think of the problem of movement and were therefore in a much better position to work with what they had.

I'm not going to claim Halo 5 doesn't have significantly more movement techniques the player can execute than classic Halo, because due to the number of different Spartan Abilities it obviously has. But people tend to place disproportionate emphasis on the importance of movement mechanics vs. map geometry when it comes to designing movement oriented gameplay. I think better results than Halo 5 could be achieved with a more conservative movement mechanic sandbox and better understanding of the mechanics and map design. Unless of course if you place disproportionate importance on the dexterity of pressing as many different buttons in quick succession as possible. In that case you'd rightly think the more mechanics the better.
I did acknowledge gandhi hopping and strafing as skillful movements in the Classic Halos in my original post. But thats pretty much the extent of it. Map design lends itself to how you use whatever mechanics you have skillfuly, thats true. H5s movement is inherently more challenging...that was my point. I'll rephrase my statement

Provided both have challenging maps or even regardless of maps, the skill gap in Classic movement is not as big as H5 movement. I think it also helps if I say that my perspective is heavily influenced by competitive gameplay. At the high levels in Classic halo, there is virtually no difference between movement skills between lets say Snakebite and Snipedown. If you had Halo game cards, pretty much every Classic Halo Pro would have 100 on their movement stat. Whereas in H5 Shotzzy, Renegade, Frosty are a tier above the rest when it comes to movement.I enjoy the fact to this day I have to grind movement mechanics to be half as good as those players. And if infintie can give me a similar challenge through whatever means then I'm open to it.

In the end, I think you and I have different preferences. You want core traits to be simple and have engaging maps. Whereas I, in addition to engaging maps, I want core traits to be accessible (which H5 is arguably not) but at the same time have a high skill ceiling (which h5 has. Just look at Shotzzy). Popular opinion is that the two can't coexist which I don't believe. Hope Infinite proves me right.
I'd be nice to have a higher skill gap with movement, but it shouldn't be at the cost of decent map design or gameplay like what happened with H5 imo.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I'd be nice to have a higher skill gap with movement, but it shouldn't be at the cost of decent map design or gameplay like what happened with H5 imo.
Yup, for sure. the current H5 settings is good but not perfect. If it were upto me I'd still change some gameplay settings. And the maps for sure have much to be desired. Also, 343 was waayyy to stubborn to act on settings feedback post launch.
Being REALISTIC. It WILL have enhanced mobility. Along with -Yoink- Micro-transactions. There is NOTHING I want more than for Halo to go back to it's roots. But, it won't. The micro-transactions are already confirmed. And I believe the reason we haven't seen any game play yet, is because of the enhanced mobility. I really, REALLY hope I am wrong. But I don't think I am :'(
If the game has advanced movement, than MS and 343i thought it's the right direction to take the series and wouldn't hide it. Same goes for classic movement mechanics of course. The reason we haven't seen a gameplay for Hi yet is because it will be released together with Scarlet as a flag-ship title, so of course they're going to reveal it properly with the console. Nothing more, nothing less!
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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--- wow. Moderated for non-constructivity. As though all the whining in this thread, regarding how some people didn't get the Halo they wished it was, IS constructive. Good call moderator. (I wonder if he's one of them.) ---
If halo infinite has similar gameplay mechanics as H2/3 I will 100% come back to halo. I disliked spartan abilities and sprint very much.
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