Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

The return of classic movement mechanics?

OP A So So Sniper

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Celestis wrote:
Even disregarding the fact that there is overlap between people who bought an Xbox 1 and an Xbox 360, meaning that the numbers of unique players could still be as "low" as 25M.... there was no boost in sales from the release of the 360. By August 2007, Halo 2 had sold "over 8 Million copies". This number, however, had already been reached on November 8, 2005, some weeks before the 360 released. Meaning the vast majority of first hand(!) sales was done on the Xbox 1.
Enough proof for you?
No you have still yet to prove anything. All you have shown is OG Xbox sold less than 360. You stating that Halo 2 sold less than Halo 3 because of this is an assumption not fact. I can just as easily make the assumption that the Only reason 360 sold so well is because of halo 3.

Celestis wrote:
Maybe not, but the autoaim in the game is still insane.
EDIT: Forgot to link the video. Fix'd.
Then that is a Problem of Halo In general not just Halo 5. Halo 2 and Halo 3
Celestis wrote:
Well done, picking a gif from a map where you literally cannot see the feet because they disappear within the sand.
Here's one from Halo CE instead.
And here's the Halo 2 Regret ending cutscene.
Both of these are the same animations (and speed) as in standard gameplay, the difference only being the lack of a gun.
I've even seen people ask why Chief can sprint(!) in this cutscene when he can't during gameplay, just because people (wrongly) expect the arms to shake when running.
Chief actually is moving faster in that Halo 2 cut scene.Those are still extremely slow running speeds for a spartan. In Halo the Fall of reach Chief Mendez says, "Your Spartans can run at bursts of up to Fifty-Five KPH"(34 MPH). That's right after they got their augmentation and way before they got their First suits of MJOLNIR. That is 10 miles Faster than
Usain Bolt the fastest man alive. Neither of those Animation Have Chief going anywhere near as fast as Usain and He wearing armor that should make him even Faster.

Celestis wrote:
These media also show Spartans being able to shoot while sprinting, and at higher speeds than in the games.
(On a side note, the running animation in this scene also looks the same as in the games. I assume they got all the character and gun models directly from the developers and just modified them for visual fidelity.)
If you want a canonically correct Halo game, remove sprint and up the BMS. Fine with me.
Your Right and at least in that they look like they are moving at a Speed Spartans Should be moving at. However, in the Spartan Locke armor Trailer it shows why they cant really shoot while sprinting. Because its more thruster aided leaping than sprinting. While it would still be possible to shoot while doing this, the rapid changes in elevation would throw off your accuracy.
Snockooz wrote:
No you have still yet to prove anything. All you have shown is OG Xbox sold less than 360. You stating that Halo 2 sold less than Halo 3 because of this is an assumption not fact.
It is fact that Halo 2 stopped selling units after the 360 came out. Ergo, your claim that 360 somehow boosted Halo 2's popularity is wrong. Nearly every copy of Halo 2 was sold to an Xbox 1 owner, therefore its attachment rate is measured to those 25 Million units, not to anything that came afterwards, backwards compatibility notwithstanding.

Vice versa, you still haven't proven that the install base for both games was the same 40 Million units by the time the sequels came out. You just added the sold Xbox 1's to the sold Xbox 360's and called it a day. This is assuming that the 360's were sold to completely different customers than the 1's, which is also not fact. And also highly unlikely.

Snockooz wrote:
I can just as easily make the assumption that the Only reason 360 sold so well is because of halo 3.
In that case the 360 should have the same console-to-game-ratio as the Xbox 1 does to Halo 2. Which it doesn't.

Snockooz wrote:
Chief actually is moving faster in that Halo 2 cut scene.
No, he's not. I've measured his speed years ago, using his height as a ruler and counted the frames in Avidemux to determine the speed. It's the exact same 7m/s from gameplay. Your gif is just stretched, thus skewing the perception.

Snockooz wrote:
Those are still extremely slow running speeds for a spartan.
Agreed. But running, nevertheless.

Snockooz wrote:
However, in the Spartan Locke armor Trailer it shows why they cant really shoot while sprinting.
The trailers aren't canon. The H5G trailers in particular. *cough*HuntTheTruth*cough*
Besides the fact that the Mark-IV didn't have thrusters. So shooting while sprinting is at least possible to the same speeds they were able to achieve with Gen-1-armor, which still exceed H5G's sprint speed.
Celestis wrote:
Snockooz wrote:
No you have still yet to prove anything. All you have shown is OG Xbox sold less than 360. You stating that Halo 2 sold less than Halo 3 because of this is an assumption not fact.
It is fact that Halo 2 stopped selling units after the 360 came out. Ergo, your claim that 360 somehow boosted Halo 2's popularity is wrong. Nearly every copy of Halo 2 was sold to an Xbox 1 owner, therefore its attachment rate is measured to those 25 Million units, not to anything that came afterwards, backwards compatibility notwithstanding.

Vice versa, you still haven't proven that the install base for both games was the same 40 Million units by the time the sequels came out. You just added the sold Xbox 1's to the sold Xbox 360's and called it a day. This is assuming that the 360's were sold to completely different customers than the 1's, which is also not fact. And also highly unlikely.

Snockooz wrote:
I can just as easily make the assumption that the Only reason 360 sold so well is because of halo 3.
In that case the 360 should have the same console-to-game-ratio as the Xbox 1 does to Halo 2. Which it doesn't.

Snockooz wrote:
Chief actually is moving faster in that Halo 2 cut scene.
No, he's not. I've measured his speed years ago, using his height as a ruler and counted the frames in Avidemux to determine the speed. It's the exact same 7m/s from gameplay. Your gif is just stretched, thus skewing the perception.

Snockooz wrote:
Those are still extremely slow running speeds for a spartan.
Agreed. But running, nevertheless.

Snockooz wrote:
However, in the Spartan Locke armor Trailer it shows why they cant really shoot while sprinting.
The trailers aren't canon. The H5G trailers in particular. *cough*HuntTheTruth*cough*
Besides the fact that the Mark-IV didn't have thrusters. So shooting while sprinting is at least possible to the same speeds they were able to achieve with Gen-1-armor, which still exceed H5G's sprint speed.
in the trailer the sprint is soo fast
Celestis wrote:
It is fact that Halo 2 stopped selling units after the 360 came out. Ergo, your claim that 360 somehow boosted Halo 2's popularity is wrong. Nearly every copy of Halo 2 was sold to an Xbox 1 owner, therefore its attachment rate is measured to those 25 Million units, not to anything that came afterwards, backwards compatibility notwithstanding.

Vice versa, you still haven't proven that the install base for both games was the same 40 Million units by the time the sequels came out. You just added the sold Xbox 1's to the sold Xbox 360's and called it a day. This is assuming that the 360's were sold to completely different customers than the 1's, which is also not fact. And also highly unlikely.
After thinking about it for a while i think your at least partially right. I think another reason Halo 2 didn't sell as well is because it had less content and only 1 Map pack(which you needed to buy in a Store IRL). Halo 3 halo Forge, theater, and 3 Map packs(all of which you could buy in the Online store) which kept it relevant. However, I still don't think the reason the Newer Halos aren't selling as well is because of the new movement Mechanics, it might be a reason I just don't think it's the main reason. I also still think Halo 3 was a perfect storm when it came to marketing and i don't think any of the newer Halos have had that yet.

Celestis wrote:
No, he's not. I've measured his speed years ago, using his height as a ruler and counted the frames in Avidemux to determine the speed. It's the exact same 7m/s from gameplay. Your gif is just stretched, thus skewing the perception.
I changed it so it's not stretched anymore. He still looked like hes moving faster to me.

Celestis wrote:
The trailers aren't canon. The H5G trailers in particular. *cough*HuntTheTruth*cough*
Besides the fact that the Mark-IV didn't have thrusters. So shooting while sprinting is at least possible to the same speeds they were able to achieve with Gen-1-armor, which still exceed H5G's sprint speed.
The Events aren't canon but the abilities are.
It's a CG trailer built with in-game assets. The animation team created it to explore/showcase the new Spartan Abilities and then we decided to finish it to share with the community. We'll release the internal "director's cut" version at some point in the future.
Also nothing in Halo 5 really contradicts the Trailer when it comes to the abilities.
Snockooz wrote:
After thinking about it for a while i think your at least partially right. I think another reason Halo 2 didn't sell as well is because it had less content and only 1 Map pack(which you needed to buy in a Store IRL). Halo 3 halo Forge, theater, and 3 Map packs(all of which you could buy in the Online store) which kept it relevant. However, I still don't think the reason the Newer Halos aren't selling as well is because of the new movement Mechanics, it might be a reason I just don't think it's the main reason. I also still think Halo 3 was a perfect storm when it came to marketing and i don't think any of the newer Halos have had that yet.
I mean, I'm not disagreeing that Halo 3 had more content and thus more appeal to the audience. Forge, Theater, Armor Unlocks, etc. all aided the game in its popularity.
I'm just saying, as long as both games had the same install base, they also had roughly the same success. In the long run, though, Halo 3 simply had more potential customers it could be sold to. If the Xbox 1 had more console sold, the games would also have sold better as a consequence.
As for what the reasons are why the newer games sell less, it's all just speculation. I just know that sprint and ADS were my reasons why I skipped H5G, as well as a lot of my friends, previously die hard Xbox fans. (Or at least intended to skip it. I eventually got it used and for free. My friends didn't however, instead switching to PS4.) And since the loss of popularity coincides with the appearence of modern movement mechanics, I've always said 343 should just release a classic game, just to find out. If anything, it would at least settle this argument...

Just on a side note, though: Halo 2 had four map packs. What you got in the store was just a disc with the first three of them (not even including the last one). And contrary to Halo 3 and its sequels, all the Halo 2 map packs were free to download two months after their respecitve releases.

Snockooz wrote:
The Events aren't canon but the abilities are. [...]Also nothing in Halo 5 really contradicts the Trailer when it comes to the abilities.
Directly contradict? No.
However, this is also not how sprint looks in the game.
And at least for Spartan-II's, we know they are capable of shooting while sprinting without thruster assistance, at higher speeds than ingame and at top precision. So this should at least be removed for campaign, if one wanted to make it canonically correct.
Celestis wrote:
Directly contradict? No.
However, this is also not how sprint looks in the game.
And at least for Spartan-II's, we know they are capable of shooting while sprinting without thruster assistance, at higher speeds than ingame and at top speed. So this should at least be removed for campaign, if one wanted to make it canonically correct.
Ground pound cant flip a tank in gameplay either. It also isn't as large of a blast in gameplay as it is in cut scenes. I think Sprint canonically is that thruster Aided Leaping we see but they couldn't make it like that in Gameplay as it would break every map that isn't a BTB map and even then he's going faster than a warthog. I think someone calc it at somewhere around 100 mph don't quote me on that though.
Celestis wrote:
Snockooz wrote:
After thinking about it for a while i think your at least partially right. I think another reason Halo 2 didn't sell as well is because it had less content and only 1 Map pack(which you needed to buy in a Store IRL). Halo 3 halo Forge, theater, and 3 Map packs(all of which you could buy in the Online store) which kept it relevant. However, I still don't think the reason the Newer Halos aren't selling as well is because of the new movement Mechanics, it might be a reason I just don't think it's the main reason. I also still think Halo 3 was a perfect storm when it came to marketing and i don't think any of the newer Halos have had that yet.
I mean, I'm not disagreeing that Halo 3 had more content and thus more appeal to the audience. Forge, Theater, Armor Unlocks, etc. all aided the game in its popularity.
I'm just saying, as long as both games had the same install base, they also had roughly the same success. In the long run, though, Halo 3 simply had more potential customers it could be sold to. If the Xbox 1 had more console sold, the games would also have sold better as a consequence.
As for what the reasons are why the newer games sell less, it's all just speculation. I just know that sprint and ADS were my reasons why I skipped H5G, as well as a lot of my friends, previously die hard Xbox fans. (Or at least intended to skip it. I eventually got it used and for free. My friends didn't however, instead switching to PS4.) And since the loss of popularity coincides with the appearence of modern movement mechanics, I've always said 343 should just release a classic game, just to find out. If anything, it would at least settle this argument...

Just on a side note, though: Halo 2 had four map packs. What you got in the store was just a disc with the first three of them (not even including the last one). And contrary to Halo 3 and its sequels, all the Halo 2 map packs were free to download two months after their respecitve releases.

Snockooz wrote:
The Events aren't canon but the abilities are. [...]Also nothing in Halo 5 really contradicts the Trailer when it comes to the abilities.
Directly contradict? No.
However, this is also not how sprint looks in the game.
And at least for Spartan-II's, we know they are capable of shooting while sprinting without thruster assistance, at higher speeds than ingame and at top precision. So this should at least be removed for campaign, if one wanted to make it canonically correct.
I agree, but in multiplayer you are a Spartan-IV, which is less powerful.
I agree, but in multiplayer you are a Spartan-IV, which is less powerful.
Actually The Gen 2 armor sets both 2s and 4s at about the same level, in terms of speed and strength not skill. 2s are still better out of armor though.
Celestis wrote:
Ascension was played along the outskirts and from tower to tower. Due to the lack of movement, your best option was on the rim of the map. And the rim had short sight lines to accommodate the movement. Snowbound was fought mainly underground due to the same reasons. I could go on.
Ascension gave you the option to move slowly around the edges of the map in cover or cross faster across the dish at the risk of being exposed. This is the so often lauded "risk vs. reward" system used to defend sprint, and it was achieved purely by map design, without butchering the core mechanics.
Snowbound had the overshield and camo spawn outside the maps, encouraging/forcing the player to go outside or lose an advantage. Weapons spawned usually where they weren't useful, such as the beam rifle spawning inside the base but the plasma pistol or needler spawning on top. So you had to go outside either to get the weapons that were effective inside, or stay outside to make the most use of the weapons you got inside.
I can also go on, if you want to go on.

The skill gap is huge. It's the highest skill gap a Halo has had.
No. No, it's really, really not. The difference between an intermediate player and a high-rank player is very small due to all the tools that are set in place by the game for you to suck less. Sprint, clamber, Autoaim, Bullet Magnetism, etc. I'm not saying the gap is the smallest it has been in the franchise, but it's definitely in the lower half. Maybe only undermined by Halo 4, because of the killstreaks and the resulting snowball effect during matches. The highest skill gap, however, is still in Halo CE, arguably Halo 2 if you include all the button combos.

The skill floor of any Halo is understanding the basics.
Correct.
H5G has more basics than previous games, with the addition of new mechanics (and I'm not just talking movement, but also Ground Pound, ADS, etc.) so there is more to learn, so there is a higher skill floor.
The original Halo games were "easy to learn, hard to master". H5G, however, is "hard to learn, slightly harder to master".
And no, I'm not just talking from me sucking at the game. There is a huge amount of users complaining online, including right here in these forums, about the game being "too sweaty".

Really, you think the movement or skill jumps in Halo 5 are not challenging. That's fine, were they ever a challenge in old games. We had crouch jumping being the main one and then what. Knowing which ledges we can magically stand on to get to places. That is not difficult either. The movement at a base level in Halo 5 is not challenging but the skill jumps are, some are really hard and others are decent.
The jumps themselves were not challenging in the original trilogy. The challenge came from learning to do them, say, backwards, while still fighting the enemy. That is also a difference between skill floor and skill ceiling. H5G hardly has any jumps that can be done without clamber, so there is no skill to be learned here, because A) clamber is an inherently forgiving mechanic and B) you're forced to face the wall to do them, disrupting combat and thus even removing a skill that was present in previous games.

Celestis wrote:
It works as a Halo game
No, it doesn't.
The last few "Halo" games, however, were still balanced similarly to the series roots but now have (a) mechanic(s) that completely undermine(s) the concept. You may not like the videos posted, which - admittedly - were making fun of the mechanic, but they are still factually correct: It is ridiculously easy to run away in "modern Halo", even after desprint was added, thanks to stuff such as thrusters, clamber and let's not forget sprint now being literally infinite.
Crossing the middle of Ascension is a suicide mission. Everyone had a BR and made it near impossible. The risk was way too high for such a little reward. It's not remotely close to the uses of Sprint. Snowbound was even worse in this regard. You went outside at the spawns of camo and overshield then went right back underground. People who were effective with the beam riffle stayed under where most the people were. Going outside to use it was just waiting for someone who had no idea how the map worked. It was that simple. Don't try and over exaggerate the map design. The maps were built with slow base movement in mind.

The skill gap in halo 5 is by far the biggest. First you say clamber makes jumps too easy. Then you say that the skill floor was raised. Then you say it is said that the game is "too sweaty." Yet somehow the skill floor went up and the skill gap shrunk. That's so contradicting. First of all, it does have the same skill floor as other halos. The basics is knowing the controls. Spartan charge and slide are just a press of a button when sprinting. Thrusters are a single button. You don't even need to know how to stabilize to use that ability because it's done automatically when aiming down your sight in the air. If the player knows what button does what then they have met the basics. That goes for all the Halo games. Learning routes on the maps or how to reach a high ledge to clamber are part of the skill gap. A team of golds in Halo 5 will get destroyed by plats. And plats get destroyed by diamonds. There is a huge gap between ranks and have experienced it first hand. Halo 5 does have the highest skill gap and there is no argument there. The reason people say it's "to sweaty" is because experienced players have much higher advantage knowing the flow and tricks of the maps. It's part of the skill gap.

Now let's talk about skill jumping. The game has been out for 4 years and I still can't do all the jumps. If you see proximity channel on YouTube, they are still learning new jumps. Clamber adds more fuidity to players who struggle, yet you don't see it often with experienced players because they have learned that it isn't always needed. In skill jumps, you have to put an effort to barely get to clamber. Your not just timing an a button with your movement speed. Your over simplifying Halo 5's jumps while making it seem like older halos were incredible. Yes you could learn to do it backwards in a fight but more often than not those chances are way to far apart when compared to how often skill jumps can be used in Halo 5 and the advantage they give is far greater. If you don't think the halo 5 skill jumps are hard I would love you to teach me how to do them because I still don't know them all.

Lastly, those videos are a joke, and saying they are factually correct is just mind blowing. You can't Sprint out of a firefight. You just can't. You can thruster behind a wall and then Sprint but as I said before, players who do that are almost always picked off. If the player is skilled enough and has complete awareness of all things around him then he should be appluaded for having a skill like that. We can make a video of Halo 3 that shows the same thing. Just shoot someone who is almost around a corner and get there before you kill him. That happens alot in the older halos but no one says let's lower their speed because they get away from firefights. It's a troll video that is funny to watch but has absolutely nothing to do with 99% of the game.

You don't like Halo 5 and that's fine but you can't just shrug at the actual facts.
Apologies if this has already been established, but I don't have time to read through all the novel-length posts over the past few pages.

As I'm sure you're all aware, game play of *some* Halo game is shown at the 2:12 timestamp in the recent We Are 343 Industries Video.

The quick game play segment unmistakably shows sprint. Some people have claimed that it's Halo 5. Then others retorted that apparently the sprint animation in that video is different than in Halo 5. Has anyone come to a definitive conclusion as to what Halo game is being shown?

The two players at that timestamp are both members of the 343i Pro Team who I believe were both hired in 2019 (per their Twitter accounts). It seems odd that they would be playing something OTHER than Halo Infinite given the time frame. On the other hand, it's odd that this would be how our first shot of Infinite game play is revealed. And it's VERY odd that 343i would casually reveal sprint, the single most controversial addition to recent Halo games, being in Infinite in what is effectively an advertisement for the studio.

Thoughts?
First of all, it does have the same skill floor as other halos.
This is obviously not true. In classic Halo, anyone who has ever played any FPS will immediately be familiar with the base mechanics, and has only the nuances of the gameplay design to contend with. The muscle memory is basically what you have in every other FPS, with the (relatively) minor addition of having to learn how to strafe and jump during combat if one is not familiar with that type of gameplay. In Halo 5, to get to a basic level of adequacy where you can actually start paying attention to the nuances of the game, you need to learn the limits of all the movement mechanics, you need to develop the muscle memory to use them immediately, and you need to learn how to chain them both at the level of having the finger dexterity, and at the level of developing the mental framework for it.

More mechanics in a game always means a higher skill floor. More rules means more effort to learn to play the game. You're free to have an opinion on how easy you personally feel this to be in case of Halo 5, but we're not talking about your personal opinion here, but about the concrete amount of base mechanics and actions at the player's disposal.

The basics is knowing the controls.
No. You're confusing knowledge with skill. Or would you say that anyone who knows a car has a steering wheel that turns the car, and pedals that slow down and accelerate it can drive at a basic level? Would you confidently step in a car with someone who has never driven one, and expect them to make their way to their destination without guidance without incident?

Halo 5 does have the highest skill gap and there is no argument there.
Actually, Halo: Spartan Assault has the highest skill gap. If you can't see why, there's no hope explaining it. You probably have never played a twin stick shooter at a competitive level, so the arguments would go over your head anyway.
tsassi wrote:
First of all, it does have the same skill floor as other halos.
This is obviously not true. In classic Halo, anyone who has ever played any FPS will immediately be familiar with the base mechanics, and has only the nuances of the gameplay design to contend with. The muscle memory is basically what you have in every other FPS, with the (relatively) minor addition of having to learn how to strafe and jump during combat if one is not familiar with that type of gameplay. In Halo 5, to get to a basic level of adequacy where you can actually start paying attention to the nuances of the game, you need to learn the limits of all the movement mechanics, you need to develop the muscle memory to use them immediately, and you need to learn how to chain them both at the level of having the finger dexterity, and at the level of developing the mental framework for it.

More mechanics in a game always means a higher skill floor. More rules means more effort to learn to play the game. You're free to have an opinion on how easy you personally feel this to be in case of Halo 5, but we're not talking about your personal opinion here, but about the concrete amount of base mechanics and actions at the player's disposal.

The basics is knowing the controls.
No. You're confusing knowledge with skill. Or would you say that anyone who knows a car has a steering wheel that turns the car, and pedals that slow down and accelerate it can drive at a basic level? Would you confidently step in a car with someone who has never driven one, and expect them to make their way to their destination without guidance without incident?

Halo 5 does have the highest skill gap and there is no argument there.
Actually, Halo: Spartan Assault has the highest skill gap. If you can't see why, there's no hope explaining it. You probably have never played a twin stick shooter at a competitive level, so the arguments would go over your head anyway.
I see what you are saying when you are talking about the skill floor. However, one of the main complaints of Halo 5 was that it was too much of other shooters. Keep in mind sprint is the norm now, along with slide. Thruster is the only real one that I would say they need to learn. It's not quite like driving a car but I knew what you meant. Halo at it's core is a shooter and anyone who played a shooter will adapt. It's not quite like someone who has never driven a car before, but more like going from a small light and nimble car to one that is heavy and hard to stop. Clamber is technically an ability but it's just a button press at a jump (or hold jump) to use. Ground pound and spartan charge are not even necessary to do well but are rewarding for those that use it. Thrusters are the hardest I would say for sure. To me, once you instinctively use it though, then you have reached the skill floor. Your saying I mixed knowledge with skill but you said they need to know the limits of the movement mechanics to reach skill floor. To today new things are found so does that mean we haven't reached the skill floor. The skill floor is instictevely knowing the controls. The knowledge and combinations applied with them are part of the skill gap. If we are basic it on controls alone then I can agree that Halo 5 has a slightly higher skill floor.

Sadly I have never played spartan assault. I think there are two games right. Would you recommend them? Is there at least a good story line? I have played twin stick shooters before but never competitively :(
Halo at it's core is a shooter and anyone who played a shooter will adapt.
A higher skill floor doesn't mean people can't adapt. It just means that there are more things the player needs to learn.

Clamber is technically an ability but it's just a button press at a jump (or hold jump) to use. Ground pound and spartan charge are not even necessary to do well but are rewarding for those that use it. Thrusters are the hardest I would say for sure. To me, once you instinctively use it though, then you have reached the skill floor.
So, would you say everyone can just use the Thruster Pack instinctively the first time they play Halo 5? If not, then that's a higher skill floor, because classic Halo has no Thruster Pack.

In fact, would you say that anyone coming from any past Halo game would immediately feel familiar with the mechanics of Halo 5? Because that's kind of the argument you're making by saying the skill floor of Halo 5 isn't any higher, that none of the Spartan Abilities take any effort to learn to use at a basic level.

Your saying I mixed knowledge with skill but you said they need to know the limits of the movement mechanics to reach skill floor.
I mean that in a very crude sense. LIke, I think you need to be able to recognize whether you can cross a gap with some simple combination of Spartan Abilities (e.g., from sprint to a thrust jump). But I'm not saying that if you can't thrust bump your way to the top of Fathom that you haven't reached the skill floor.

But part of the issue is that it's not obvious where the Halo 5 techniques go from basic techniques to advanced techniques. I think everyone should agree that a thrust jump is basic, because it's so obvious and easy to execute. But then, is a Ground Pound cancel basic? It's not entirely obvious to a novice, but once you see it done once, it's just immediately clear and again easy to learn.

Sadly I have never played spartan assault. I think there are two games right. Would you recommend them? Is there at least a good story line? I have played twin stick shooters before but never competitively :(
Eh, I haven't actually played them much. I guess that's part of the joke. I tried Spartan Assault when it first came out, but didn't really get into it, so I'm not the right person to tell you about them. My guess is that they're probably fine to pass time with, but nothing you're missing out on.
Crossing the middle of Ascension is a suicide mission. Everyone had a BR and made it near impossible.
No, they didn't. Halo 2 had SMG spawns and there were only two BRs on the map (as far as I remember, it might even have been only one).

The maps were built with slow base movement in mind.
I never said anything to the contrary. What I'm contesting is the notion that they were restricted to small or highly cluttered maps or segments of those maps, as that simply isn't the case. Power weapons and other map pickups were usually placed far out in the open, such as the sniper or rocket launcher spawning on the catwalks on Hang 'Em High. Crossing open spaces almost always gave you a faster route at the risk of being exposed. The lack of cover could be mitigated by good teamwork and covering fire. Each spot on the map had advantages and disadvantages and they were all being used. The size of these spaces was balanced to the movement speed. If Bungie didn't want them there or felt they weren't used enough, they could have easily just plastered them with random objects. Your personal preference to avoid the exposed ones does not change that.

The skill gap in halo 5 is by far the biggest.
No. It's objectively not. The skill floor is significantly raised and the gap from there to the ceiling is mostly made up of "advanced techniques" that are neither mechanically nor mentally challenging. Of course there are some exceptions to this, such as slide boosting. But like in the case with the aforementioned drop clambering or ground pound cancel, the "skill" needed to learn most of them is just knowing that they're there. Contrast this to Halo CE and Halo 2: The former had a completely different spawn system that needed to be learned how to manipulate (mental skill) while the latter had ample of button combos that had to be performed with the correct timing to not leave yourself at a disadvantage (mechanical skill). These two skills are also permanently used across the map, regardless where you are, while movement combos are heavily resticted to certain locations. At the very least, H5G's skill gap lies below CE and 2.

First you say clamber makes jumps too easy. Then you say that the skill floor was raised. Then you say it is said that the game is "too sweaty." Yet somehow the skill floor went up and the skill gap shrunk. That's so contradicting.
It really isn't, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I'll try to explain:
Players used to be able to pick up a Halo game, get used to the base mechanics and play within a matter of minutes. With the increase of the number of base mechanics, there is more to learn which takes a far longer time (possibly days). I'm not just talking about simply understanding how the mechanics work but also remembering to use them in distress, building the muscle memory to press the right button, etc. When people complain about the game being "too sweaty" they are complaining about the skill floor being too high.
However, once you have already reached that point where you could use the basics consistently, there are a huge amount of "failsafes" put into place that aid you in saving yourself from a bad jump, being caught unaware or just general disadvantages. That is also (part of) the reason why H5G tournaments generally end at lower kills than Halo 3, while still taking longer to finish. The game tries to help its players so much that it actively reduces the kill frequency.

You don't like Halo 5 and that's fine but you can't just shrug at the actual facts.
No, I don't like H5G, you're correct about that. However, I also don't care about multiplayer, as I'm a campaign guy first and foremost, and that is my reason for disliking the game. In terms of multiplayer, if anything, I'm a neutral observer. And it can be objectively observed that H5G's mechanics are highly forgiving to losing players, both from the intermediate up to even the high skill level.

tsassi wrote:
Actually, Halo: Spartan Assault has the highest skill gap. If you can't see why, there's no hope explaining it. You probably have never played a twin stick shooter at a competitive level, so the arguments would go over your head anyway.
Sadly I have never played spartan assault. I think there are two games right. Would you recommend them? Is there at least a good story line? I have played twin stick shooters before but never competitively :(
Played and completed both of them. They are actually a quite fun diversion in terms of gameplay, but if you're looking for story, look elsewhere.
They are also a PITA to complete if you're going for achievements like I do.
EDIT: I also think tsassi was joking when he said "competitively", to prove a point...
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Even if the skill floor is higher, it's not by much.
Celestis wrote:
tsassi wrote:
Actually, Halo: Spartan Assault has the highest skill gap. If you can't see why, there's no hope explaining it. You probably have never played a twin stick shooter at a competitive level, so the arguments would go over your head anyway.
Sadly I have never played spartan assault. I think there are two games right. Would you recommend them? Is there at least a good story line? I have played twin stick shooters before but never competitively :(
Played and completed both of them. They are actually a quite fun diversion in terms of gameplay, but if you're looking for story, look elsewhere.
They are also a PITA to complete if you're going for achievements like I do.
EDIT: I also think tsassi was joking when he said "competitively", to prove a point...
I actually believed it because I'm horrid at twin stick shooter. There is also competitive everything almost so I believed it.

I also love the halo universe and am very much looking forward to infinites campaign. I definitely agree Halo 5s campaign was a huge downgrade for a Halo campaign and was not memorable. That's the nicest way to put it. I'm going to start another thread about something I'm curious about. Thanks guys, the wait for infinite is actually getting too much to handle
I actually believed it because I'm horrid at twin stick shooter. There is also competitive everything almost so I believed it.
Yeah, no. It was a satire. But it comes pretty close to some actual comments if you substitute Spartan Assault with something more sensible. The point was, if you say "X has the highest skill gap" without thoroughly justifying it, you're wasting everyone's time. And when you add "there is no argument there" when there obviously is, it shows an entirely unjustified level of confidence, to put it mildly.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Even if the skill floor is higher, it's not by much.
The notion of "skill floor" is too vague to say anything about the magnitude of the difference. I'm pretty sure I have a different idea of what skill floor is than you do, and I'm completely confident that my own idea is too vague to start with, so I don't expect anyone else's to be any more well defined.
How's about we get sprint and have it as an ability, so you can choose whether or not to use it. And than we can have the glorious Reach days, stop complaining, and be happy as clams. Cuz lets be honest, Reach was cool. Just make sure to balance properly.
How's about we get sprint and have it as an ability, so you can choose whether or not to use it. And than we can have the glorious Reach days, stop complaining, and be happy as clams. Cuz lets be honest, Reach was cool. Just make sure to balance properly.
I'd be cool with having sprint and other AA and SA's as selectable abilities for custom games.

These shouldn't be at the heart of map design, weapon balance, etc... In my opinion. Just a nice extra for those who want to use them, keep them non intrusive to the core Halo experience.
How's about we get sprint and have it as an ability, so you can choose whether or not to use it. And than we can have the glorious Reach days, stop complaining, and be happy as clams. Cuz lets be honest, Reach was cool. Just make sure to balance properly.
We could also have total invincibility as an ability. Then you could choose whether or not to use it, and we could all be happy.
Heck no we do not need the return of classic mobility. We're playing as Spartans for -Yoink- sake. If I can sprint and clamber in the real world there is no logical reason Spartans in Halo games shouldn't be able to as well. It made sense back in 2007 and before when gameplay mechanics weren't as advanced, but anymore it makes no sense to not include basic mechanics like sprint and clamber.
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