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The return of classic movement mechanics?

OP A So So Sniper

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On a side note; rollcats shared a video of what 5 gaurdians was like at launch ( I didn't have it at launch, went through some hard times) did some browsing of older vids. Though , I love the additions to 5. I can see very well why there are concerns over implementing them again. Spartan charge used to take out all your shields and half your health. Groundpound could be done in a split second. These were ridiculously over powered at launch. But these mechanics don't need to be that powerful to make a comeback. The need to be reworked and nerfed. Personally, I don't think a spartan should be able to kill another spartan with out a weapon. Spartan charge should be changed or replaced to. Physically speaking, would it not make sense for this move to hurt the chargee as well? Just making it clear I don't think you all are crazy, not I the slightest. I do believe these mechanics should be given a golden chance to be reworked with proper scrutiny instead of dismissing them entirely.
I ran out of live but will renew over the weekend and will share my findings as how these mechanics in 5 are in this quarter of 2020.
RollCats wrote:
I am not saying that's the only way. Obviously Halo 4 tried *alot* of different ways to innovate. It had most of the things you mentioned: addition of new weapons, new weapon mechanics, new items, new vehicles (not this one? not sure), new vehicle mechanics, new level design ideas, new gametypes (yep, and it was hated) and gamemode (Spartan Ops).

Actually, the only advanced mechanic added to that game in base mechanics was sprint unless I'm forgetting something else. I've already stated before that I think H4 was too different. I enjoyed it, but it's kind of an objective statement that Infinity Slayer was extremely different, and it may have been the thing that 'put the nail in the coffin' for 343i (MCC launch didn't help) for a lot of the base.

Halo 5 then went all in on Arena style gameplay, with a fresh take by adding 'advanced movement'. This was still not acceptable.

So, we've seen two different approaches, a vocal group of the community hated both. One focused on all the things you mentioned, but to many it was too much at once, and change for the sake of change. The other tried to create a genuinely unique 'modern' Halo experience that I happened to have a blast playing. But people didn't want 'modern'.

So, I certainly understand. But it sounds like to me that 'acceptable innovation window' is much narrower than what you made it seem. Or, it's never acceptable if sprint is included (some have stated this clearly, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.)
I don't remember Halo 4 doing anything significant in terms of vehicle mechanics or level design. In fact, I'd say vehicle mechanics have been pretty stagnant perhaps since the introduction of hijacking. Not as a criticism, because I think vehicles are a difficult area to make meaningful changes in. Level design (singe player and multiplayer) has been similarly stagnant with Halo Infinite kind of making the biggest change in years in the single player realm. Multiplayer level design has been stagnant since Halo 3 came up with man cannons.

Weapons, vehicles, and modes have been the staple of change in Halo, and despite Halo 4 doing its share, i don't think it really deserves a special mention in that regard. Again, not that there's anything wrong with that. You don't need to revolutionize the sandbox or what people play to effect meaningful change.

I'm not actually sure how to categorize all the things that upset people in Halo 4. However, I can tell that the reasons people were upset was because the mechanics used in the game didn't mesh with the principles of Halo's gameplay design, and because some of the mechanics were just plain bad game design (random ordnance).

But in both Halo 4 and 5, I think there are two obvious takeaways:
  1. You have to be aware of the features of the gameplay design that players experience as foundational. The players may not be able to tell what these are beforehand, but they will notice when you break them.
  2. You can't shove too much in the player's face at once. Too much change leads to subpar execution and will come as a shock to the players. Evolution trumps revolution.
tsassi wrote:
RollCats wrote:
I am not saying that's the only way. Obviously Halo 4 tried *alot* of different ways to innovate. It had most of the things you mentioned: addition of new weapons, new weapon mechanics, new items, new vehicles (not this one? not sure), new vehicle mechanics, new level design ideas, new gametypes (yep, and it was hated) and gamemode (Spartan Ops).

Actually, the only advanced mechanic added to that game in base mechanics was sprint unless I'm forgetting something else. I've already stated before that I think H4 was too different. I enjoyed it, but it's kind of an objective statement that Infinity Slayer was extremely different, and it may have been the thing that 'put the nail in the coffin' for 343i (MCC launch didn't help) for a lot of the base.

Halo 5 then went all in on Arena style gameplay, with a fresh take by adding 'advanced movement'. This was still not acceptable.

So, we've seen two different approaches, a vocal group of the community hated both. One focused on all the things you mentioned, but to many it was too much at once, and change for the sake of change. The other tried to create a genuinely unique 'modern' Halo experience that I happened to have a blast playing. But people didn't want 'modern'.

So, I certainly understand. But it sounds like to me that 'acceptable innovation window' is much narrower than what you made it seem. Or, it's never acceptable if sprint is included (some have stated this clearly, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.)
I don't remember Halo 4 doing anything significant in terms of vehicle mechanics or level design. In fact, I'd say vehicle mechanics have been pretty stagnant perhaps since the introduction of hijacking. Not as a criticism, because I think vehicles are a difficult area to make meaningful changes in. Level design (singe player and multiplayer) has been similarly stagnant with Halo Infinite kind of making the biggest change in years in the single player realm. Multiplayer level design has been stagnant since Halo 3 came up with man cannons.

Weapons, vehicles, and modes have been the staple of change in Halo, and despite Halo 4 doing its share, i don't think it really deserves a special mention in that regard. Again, not that there's anything wrong with that. You don't need to revolutionize the sandbox or what people play to effect meaningful change.

I'm not actually sure how to categorize all the things that upset people in Halo 4. However, I can tell that the reasons people were upset was because the mechanics used in the game didn't mesh with the principles of Halo's gameplay design, and because some of the mechanics were just plain bad game design (random ordnance).

But in both Halo 4 and 5, I think there are two obvious takeaways:
  1. You have to be aware of the features of the gameplay design that players experience as foundational. The players may not be able to tell what these are beforehand, but they will notice when you break them.
  2. You can't shove too much in the player's face at once. Too much change leads to subpar execution and will shock to the players. Evolution trumps revolution.
I think those are good takeways -- too much change at once instead of iterative like the Bungie games were.

I am personally very excited for Infinite based on the gameplay. Slide and Clamber aren't game-breaking for me, although yes I would prefer to have the skill gap of crouch jump instead of making levels around clamber. Sprint...Let's wait and see. I can see both sides of the argument so I'm not going to comment either way until I actually play it.

But I love the return to equipment, and the base movement looked pretty good. Excited for the new guns. I think even if it has Sprint, it will be the best 343i game they've made, and I think most people will end up feeling that way.

But again. We've seen like 4 minutes of gameplay.
Admittedly I prefer no sprint in Halo/most arena shooters. However due to sprint's speed, seemingly, being nerfed based on campaign gameplay, and the removal of advanced movement in general, as base traits, MAYBE this means they don't have to stretch out maps in arena (which was one of the biggest issues in h5 map design).

Sprint barely seems faster than base movement speed, so I'm not as put off as I initially expected. This also means if they do create a seperate play list it won't be as jarring as the removal of sprint won't be as big a difference in mobility... Maybe.

I just hope they kept sprint's other penalties from h5 in addition to the speed nerf. No charging of shields, stopped in ur tracks when shot, sound penalty. All of this with the apparent speed nerf, would put me at ease.

And at this point I just want a Fun game that FEELS like Halo, a meaningful/utility weapon and item sandbox, combat situations where people have to commit to their decisions more with smaller margins of randomness in encounters.
i hope the showwn sprint is just an animation. i hope the shown clamber is very low powered.
Apologies if someone has posted this already (I did a quick scan of the last few pages)... but I was just thinking about the purpose of a sprint animation with only a minor increase in speed.

We've already postulated that the speed may actually start to ramp up after a short duration (ie. Hold sprint to run faster).

But what if the animation is used to tell the player that they have now been running long enough to jump further... or to initiate a slide... or (God forbid) spartan charge. It could just be a visual cue that your spartan has been moving long enough to do another action.
While I would vastly prefer they not have sprint in multiplayer I can understand wanting to make it work. The biggest issue is that sprint and other advanced movement mechanics affect how maps are designed. Either they are designed with sprint in mind, or they aren't, which means allowing sprint to be turned off/on in game-type settings is sort of a hollow compromise without creating map variations that account for no sprint. Of course forge might help solve some of this problem, but it would mean developer designed maps would be garbage in a sprint-less playlist. Just some of my personal opinions, comments, and ideas on movement in Halo games.

  • I like sprinting into a slide in shooters, it is typically pretty satisfying, but I'm not so sure it's something Halo ever needed.
  • I liked the dashing you could do in Halo 5 - there I said it - I liked how it added another type of movement not seen in other shooters (did COD do this?) and it felt distinctly SPARTAN. I also liked that it could mix up strafing strategies, and could facilitate disengaging from a fight.
  • I did not like how easy sprinting made disengaging from and avoiding a fight.
  • Sprinting didn't feel SPARTAN to me. It felt like something a normal soldier would do, SPARTAN-II's can run at speeds exceeding 34MPH, you should be able to outpace a Warthog accelerating from a stop for at least a short while. The kind of sprinting we did in Halo 5 felt like a light jog for a SPARTAN-II who should be able to shoot accurately while doing it.
  • Change-up the properties of sprinting in Halo to distinguish it from sprinting in other shooters. Make sprinting unlimited, allow us to shoot 100% accurately while sprinting but only in the direction we are moving and drastically limit the turn rate. Perhaps you cannot reload while sprinting and shields do not recharge to compensate.
  • Spartan-charge and ground-slam were too gimmicky and worked against traditional shooting mechanics and ethos. Sprinting up to someone and meleeing them is the same thing as a spartan-charge, and creating a mechanic that encourages giving up high-ground for 1 kill in a game that revolves around map-control seems like the wrong kind of choice to give players.
Darwi wrote:
Apologies if someone has posted this already (I did a quick scan of the last few pages)... but I was just thinking about the purpose of a sprint animation with only a minor increase in speed.

We've already postulated that the speed may actually start to ramp up after a short duration (ie. Hold sprint to run faster).

But what if the animation is used to tell the player that they have now been running long enough to jump further... or to initiate a slide... or (God forbid) spartan charge. It could just be a visual cue that your spartan has been moving long enough to do another action.
Interesting thought, kind of like when the two symbols < > appear on screen when you've achieved full sprint in Halo 5? An interesting take, and perhaps a a way to separate itself from the Halo 5 mechanics a little bit?
It should disabled in multiplayer. Sprint slows down gameplay because since you can’t shoot so you try not to sprint meaning it will take longer to get in to a gunfight because the maps are made bigger to acommadate a higher player mobility, thus slowing down gameplay. It also disrupts halo’s golden formula since it prevents you from shooting and throwing grenades.
clamber makes the bigger map problem worse as the developers have make the maps to prevent players from glitching out of the map. It also disrupts halo’s golden formula since it prevents you from shooting, meleaing, and from throwing grenades.

(the grapple would also make the maps bigger if it weren’t for the fact that it’s a pickup in multiplayer.)
It should disabled in multiplayer. Sprint slows down gameplay because since you can’t shoot so you try not to sprint meaning it will take longer to get in to a gunfight because the maps are made bigger to acommadate a higher player mobility, thus slowing down gameplay. It also disrupts halo’s golden formula since it prevents you from shooting and throwing grenades.
clamber makes the bigger map problem worse as the developers have make the maps to prevent players from glitching out of the map. It also disrupts halo’s golden formula since it prevents you from shooting, meleaing, and from throwing grenades.

(the grapple would also make the maps bigger if it weren’t for the fact that it’s a pickup in multiplayer.)
Omg thats the penalty for those who choose to sprint that is the main reason sprint doesn't break the game because it has a drawback
Load outs have draw backs does that mean they should be in halo infinite
So I get how some people don't like sprint because it's not classic Halo and it ruins some of the mechanics in their opinion. But there's also people, like me, who are fine with sprint and use it regularly. So what if for Infinite, sprint was an option for campaign and multiplayer. For campaign, you could go to settings and toggle it on or off. For multiplayer, there would be a classifier or icon over the games that would indicate if sprint was present in the game or not or if it was a pick-up item. Maybe this would be too confusing, but I thought I would just throw it out there and see what people thought.
CapnChez wrote:
So I get how some people don't like sprint because it's not classic Halo and it ruins some of the mechanics in their opinion. But there's also people, like me, who are fine with sprint and use it regularly. So what if for Infinite, sprint was an option for campaign and multiplayer. For campaign, you could go to settings and toggle it on or off. For multiplayer, there would be a classifier or icon over the games that would indicate if sprint was present in the game or not or if it was a pick-up item. Maybe this would be too confusing, but I thought I would just throw it out there and see what people thought.
in multiplayer, this would create the issue of map scaling being unoptimized. a sprint that is nerfed enough to be replaceable by bms could as well be an animation for top speed movement without shooting in that case. this would probably apeace both factions.
Make sprint a campaign exclusive mechanic. You just have to build smaller maps, like in the first Halo Trilogy and everything will be fine. Those large maps made Halo 4 and 5 Multiplayer so boring. You can always hear some gunshots but it just takes you too long to get there as long as it's still interesting.
Are we going to get a statement from 343 on why sprint was included? This is the most discussed topic on the Halo Infinite forum. Are they just ignoring this or are they afraid of the backlash?
F16 HUNTER wrote:
Are we going to get a statement from 343 on why sprint was included. This is the most discussed topic on the Halo Infinite forum. Are they just ignoring this or are they afraid of the backlash?
If it's anything like with H5G, a developer might briefly touch on it during a presentation on a conference, some years down the line. Towards the fanbase, 343 has never clarified why certain mechanics are or aren't included in the games, and I doubt they ever will.
Make sprint a campaign exclusive mechanic. You just have to build smaller maps, like in the first Halo Trilogy and everything will be fine. Those large maps made Halo 4 and 5 Multiplayer so boring. You can always hear some gunshots but it just takes you too long to get there as long as it's still interesting.
This sounds okay if they want sprint so bad I their open-world campaign. That way we could have a solid return to the hugely popular Halo mechanics pre-sprint.
Clamber and slide are just as bad if not worse than sprint in my opinion. Hopefully there's no sprint or abilities in multiplayer. If there is, then a hardcore/team arena type playlist should have no sprint or abilities.
It should disabled in multiplayer. Sprint slows down gameplay because since you can’t shoot so you try not to sprint meaning it will take longer to get in to a gunfight because the maps are made bigger to acommadate a higher player mobility, thus slowing down gameplay. It also disrupts halo’s golden formula since it prevents you from shooting and throwing grenades.
clamber makes the bigger map problem worse as the developers have make the maps to prevent players from glitching out of the map. It also disrupts halo’s golden formula since it prevents you from shooting, meleaing, and from throwing grenades.

(the grapple would also make the maps bigger if it weren’t for the fact that it’s a pickup in multiplayer.)
If anything, gameplay has been sped up. It isn't sprint alone that has done this but thrust too. In classic Halo you had time to predict, for example: the crazy sniper clips people would hit in Halo 3. It was all about prediction, not flying over to their spawns as fast as possible. In Halo 5, that is what you have to do. You can't hit clips while staying in the same section of the map anymore unless it is a rare case. Halo 5 has more to do with reaction than prediction.
At this point i think they will just end up putting Classic Mode meaning no sprint and such and the 2nd Mode will Anniversary meaning with sprint and such, just my guess.
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