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The return of classic movement mechanics?

OP A So So Sniper

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For example (not comparison), imagine the same outlook were to be applied to reloading. That it is a set of restrictions, varying in severity, often detrimental to combat, while still acknowledging that it replenishes magazine size. There is definitely a time and place where the restrictions of reloading do not negatively impact the player, but combat is certainly not it.
Reloading is an interesting choice, because I absolutely do see it as a mechanic purely based on restriction, much like sprint. There are actually weapons in the Halo sandbox for which I think removal of reloading would improve combat flow in a way that has some parallels to removal of sprint. But reloading is also an example of how acknowledging a mechanic is purely a restriction doesn't mean you have to think the mechanic is bad. Reloading adds a second cadence on top of firing rate that can be used to get a bit more variety out of the weapon sandbox.

It's not that if it's a restriction, it's bad. But if thinking of the mechanic as a restriction makes you uncomfortable, maybe it suggests that there's an alternative. I think you've demonstrated you can find good things to say about sprint (regardless of whether I agree with them), irrespective of its top speed. But if somebody doesn't, maybe they don't actually need sprint, maybe they just want the speed.

Really, though, you could (hypothetically) agree with me on this view without losing anything.

As I've mentioned often, I don't want to be going at 130% speed all the time. This is why having Sprint as an additional mechanic is beneficial, as it gives a greater level of control over when it is applied. In combat I don't need to be going 130%, and that might be too much depending on the area. But every so often an opportunity is presented, be it cutting off a vehicle, rushing in-range to deploying enemies, or getting into position quickly for an ambush where having a boost is useful.

And even small things. There is an element to immersion that I enjoy with Sprint. Using it to quickly cover ground and assassinate a high ranking Sangehili before his lance can react. Taking a Sprinting jump off a cliff to get more distance (it was especially useful for the "If They Came To Hear Me Beg" achievement). Quickly getting to a vehicle before a tank gets in range to kill me. Or even quickly getting to a fleeing enemy (e.g. the BOB on "Winter Contingency" at the very beginning).

I can't change what people enjoy, which is why I focus on the positive functions of Sprint. How it's limitations make it useful, and inversely how simply increasing the BMS does not offer the same tactical benefits or introduce the same immersive functions.
In all of this, I can't help but see a lack of reference to the restrictions of sprint. If sprint was merely a speed toggle, would you take it? Or is there something about the restrictions specifically you view necessary for your enjoyment?

  1. Tediousness is in the eye of the beholder, yes. Which is why having Sprint as an engaged mechanic, rather than the speed reached at full-tilt LS, is best left to player choice. Some people might want to run down a given corridor, others might prefer to sprint.
  2. Level design only limits the fastest possible time, and Sprint would contribute to that possible time. But the level design does not dictate that time; there will always be the fastest, shortest route through any given area, but that isn't the only path that a player must take.
This is what I don't really understand. If it's just a corridor, a straight line from A to B, why would someone not want to run that straight line at top speed?

I mean, I'm very aware of the fact that a player might want to explore. If there is instead of a corridor, say, a wide canyon with all sorts of features, of course a player might not want to take the straight path through the canyon, but explore and take a longer winding path. Maybe the player wants to stop to look at something, maybe they try to jump up a rock face which naturally slows them down. These are all facilitated by the analog stick degrees of freedom, as far as I'm concerned. But the need for finer control than that is really hard for me to wrap my head around. Like, if somebody just wants to get from A to B, I don't understand why they would they not want to do that at top speed.

First and foremost, Evade locks you into that movement, forward being the greatest distance, with the inability to turn at all. [...]Secondly, and additionally, the lack of direct control over Evade can lead to it being a fatal mistake. [...]
Okay, this makes sense. I mean, for me the way Evade conserves speed makes it interesting, but it's undeniable it behaves completely differently to sprint in this way.

I don’t disagree that movement should compliment combat, and in this regard having Sprint behind a “click-up” mechanic is the best course of action. Because the purpose of Sprint is to get from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible, and it doesn’t have a purpose in combat. Base Movement has the range of applicability suitable for combat encounters, and can be utilized as more than A-to-B. Sprint is separate from that Base Movement, and does serve that express purpose.
Complementarity is this idea that movement plays an active role in combat, possibly encourages combat, and doesn't interfere with combat. This is what I mean when I say movement should complement combat. if a player has to leave combat to use a movement ability, or if they have to stop using the movement ability to engage in combat, the movement ability is fundamentally not complementing combat.

You don't have to denounce the complementarity of movement and combat to like sprint, but being content with its present and past implementations make it at least not a very high priority for you.

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Also, because I criticized you previously, I'm now going to say thanks. This was a good post. More time explaining your perspective.
Celestis wrote:
...it makes the separation between movement mode and combat mode even worse.
And as illustrated, there is no time delay anymore. If you are sprinting and you see an enemy, the very millisecond you pull the trigger, you begin firing. It is no different than moving at top BMS, coming upon an enemy, and firing.

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...or - which I consider more likely - you once again make a polemic rebuttal because you run out of arguments and instead want to provoke an emotional reaction that is easier to dismiss.
And more directs at my character. You need to do far less of that, Celestis, or I'm just going to stop responding to you.

No, this particular thread goes back just under a month. When you claimed that the mechanics of Sprint - particularly forced weapon lowering - goes against canon. I made the statement that this downside is realistically minor, to which you vehemently disagreed, and here we are.

The lowering of weapons is a minor issue in that it is immediately returned under the exact same conditions - realistically, not mechanically - as though you were simply moving at top BMS and then fired. If this point is invoking an emotional response from you, then perhaps you need to take a day or two to calm down before making a reply, rather than accusing me of trying to intentionally upset you because I "have no argument".

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No, an objective observation based on facts.
Even if it were (which it isn't), why would this be an issue?
Not really. You want to be moving at the fastest speed possible, while also being able to fire. You don't need to be, and that you cannot Sprint and shoot is not detrimental to physical gameplay.

That you don't like Sprint is not the issue. This particular topic is only an issue in that you are trying - and unable - to quantify the limitations and downsides of Sprint as absolute negatives, blatantly ignoring the benefits that Sprint does factually offer, and dismissing and even ridiculing examples of how those limitations can be mitigated.

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An Xbox Controller joystick outputs values between -32768 to +32767 on the cardinal axes,
Cool, but not the point I was making, and I think you know it. Rhetorically, see if you can maintain whatever input would equal to 7.92 m/s for the majority of gameplay, only extending to 10.3 m/s circumstantially as it benefits in a specific moment. Better not drift into 8 m/s, as that would break the rhetorical hypothetical "solution" of tilt discipline.

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It's 100%, not 130
No, it is not. 100% movement is 7.92 m/s. Base Movement Speed. Sprint, at 10.3 m/s, is a 30% increase in speed. Sprinting speed, and thus mechanically the fastest speed possible, is 130%.

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This is only the case in H5G,
Which is the current iteration being discussed at large, until more information is available on Halo Infinite and how Sprint functions in that game.

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On the contrary, you just proved the point, by admitting that sprinting isn't a combat mechanic, so why does it disable shooting in the first place?
Because you are not in combat while Sprinting. And should you need to be, pull the trigger. You are now immediately in combat, with no difference as had you been traveling at 100% speed, as has been pointed out many times now.
INTIAL POST: In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!

can we talk about how poorly this aged? Only a few months later at e3 this got resolved the other way
tsassi wrote:
Really, though, you could (hypothetically) agree with me on this view without losing anything.
Realistically I do agree, and it is the reason that I use reloading here. Reloading is really nothing but a restriction, but it is regarded as a positive function. Personally I find it weird not to reload after every engagement, and still try to in DOOM to this day.

With Sprint, I recognize the restrictions that it has. I understand how they can potentially have a negative impact. However, I personally do not regard them as detrimental when the proper time and place for Sprint are taken into practice.

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In all of this, I can't help but see a lack of reference to the restrictions of sprint. If sprint was merely a speed toggle, would you take it? Or is there something about the restrictions specifically you view necessary for your enjoyment?
I would keep the stagger, as that would directly reward getting away along with the satisfaction of successfully getting away, and I would keep the shield freeze to make Sprinting more of a risk in the wrong situation. I don't really have an opinion on the weapon lowering one way or another.

And even if the stagger and shield freeze were removed, and Sprint was returned to a short duration (which I would support), that would be a reasonable limitation in that I can only get so far.

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This is what I don't really understand. If it's just a corridor, a straight line from A to B, why would someone not want to run that straight line at top speed?
Might just not feel like it, or be distracted outside the game, or maybe it's a corridor where there's stuff going on in the distance. Sometimes I'm content with going full BMS through "Crow's Nest", and other times I just want to get it done. If I could Sprint in some of those areas, I would.

And realistically, on a human level, my LS is generally full-tilt. 95% of the time, I'm going full BMS. It's only those times where I'm either impatient or I need the 30% speed boost, that I click to use it.

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Complementarity is this idea that movement plays an active role in combat, possibly encourages combat, and doesn't interfere with combat.

Well, there have been a few times in Campaign combat here recently that I have used Sprint to positive effect. It's useful for getting out from under Wraith blasts and Hunters, as well as Incinerator Cannons and when in sights for Beam Rifles. The Warden's gravity sphere attacks as well.

So far as Multiplayer, it would be difficult but I can conceive of the situation where an enemy is reloading, and Sprint could be used to close the gap to finish them off, potentially with an assassination if you're deft enough. It's also useful (albeit risky) to use with Gravity Hammers and Swords. It's a common tactic to Sprint around with those weapons, attacking when in range. Having no shield recharge makes it a risk, but the high damage output of those weapons makes it useful. Especially for rear-advance ambushes.
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Nuss902928 wrote:
Saying that sprint's usefulness is not as common as the match goes on still shows that it is common, meaning that it has a steady impact on the game overall,
Given that:
  • Being shot prevents you from engaging in Sprint,
  • Sprint freezes shield regeneration, making it inopportune to use in proximity to active combat,
  • Sprint restricts the use of weapons while active, also making it a poor choice to use in and around combat,
Where exactly is the impact on the game, outside of intermittent forward mobility?
Those first two points are not tied to sprint inherently, they only represent how it can be implemented, and even with their presence sprint can still be useful when escaping.

You say intermittent forward mobility as if that isn't much of an issue when it is the biggest issue by far with sprint, again its the creation of a barrier between max speed and combat actions, and the focusing of max speed towards forward movement rather than it being available in all directions.
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Those vehicle and weapon changes are just that, changes, they are things that a player can adjust to rather quickly due to their presence in both campaign and multiplayer.
And just as equally, it could be a rapid adaptation if Sprint were altered for Matchmaking alone. We're already going to have to do this exact thing with the Grappleshot, so I don't know why you're against such a compromise.
We have no idea how well the grappleshot is going to work and what all of its impacts are going to include, but even so the grappleshot will be present in both campaign and multiplayer, meaning that players will be using it in both modes. With the example of sprint that we were talking about, sprint would be in campaign but not in multiplayer, meaning that it wouldn't always be present like the grappleshot would, a mechanic which is not always present is not as easy to adjust to as a mechanic which simply changes between campaign and multiplayer.
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Because you won't find much if you're only moving forward, and you'll have to go below full speed in order to fully look around.
Firstly, as it stands now you can look around while sprinting. Secondly, this doesn't quite answer how it's easier to explore at "full speed", rather than anything below full speed. You're not going to find much, regarding exploration, if you're going full speed through a play area.
Its more difficult to look around while sprinting, you need to change direction in order to look fully, and as for ease of exploration, not every player will have the same experience but its not as if a lack of sprint would negate the existence of a slower speed to explore with if necessary.
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If the devs wanted they could have made that elevator jump lethal, or disabled the button until it reached the top floor, but they didn't.
Exactly. They didn't. So you can opt to wait for that elevator that they put so much effort into designing and scripting, or you can blow right through it. There is no "As The Devs Intended".
I'm really getting tired of this, I've already stated that these examples are meant to show what the players abilities and tools are in a specific level or part of a level, and how the player can only engage with the tools that they have been given, in the case of Cairo Station I brought it up because it has no vehicles, meaning that the player can only use their running speed, jump, and gravity to get around the map as fast as possible. If you'd like a reminder here is exactly what I said " in Halo 2 the first mission is Cairo Station, this mission does not have any vehicles so the fastest that the player can get around is by running, very simple" At no point did I ever say that the player absolutely had to take a certain route, or even that there were no shortcuts available, only that whatever routes they took could only be taken at the speeds which their base abilities allowed them to be taken with. The elevator shortcut has absolutely no bearing on my point whatsoever, it still involves the use of the players base mechanics.
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I never said that the player needed to meander, why did you add that?
Because that is the designed and scripted route. As close as it gets to "As The Devs Intended", yet it's still possible to completely ignore. Your focus here, and why I'm objecting, has not been "you're limited to movement speed". It has been, stated more than once, "If The Devs want a given area to take a certain timeframe, there's nothing the player can do to change that." (Paraphrased). Twice now this has been proven incorrect with examples.
You haven't proven anything incorrect, both of your examples involve the player using their base abilities to get across an area, which was my point, I brought up Cairo Station and the first half of Outskirts because both of these examples lack vehicles and all other forms of transport, meaning that the fastest way to progress through these areas is with the players base movement abilities, neither of your examples say anything against this. My second example involved the warthog once you reach the beach area, which despite not being mandatory to use or be used in a certain way, does represent the fastest tool provided by the devs to travel to the end of the map.
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I still hold that reloading does not reward the player in any way. Choosing when to reload can be beneficial in the sense that you're avoiding the vulnerability that it brings,
And the very same thing - the exact same thing - can and has been said for Sprint. Knowing when to utilize Sprint rewards them with an additional 2 m/s, and failing to know when to utilize it penalizes. In both cases, it is the player choice that is rewarding or punishing.
The key difference that I brought up with reloading was that it is always punishing, it doesn't sometimes reward the player like sprint can. In regards to benefits, sprint does have the potential to be beneficial to a player who uses it wisely, but my issue with this is that it ruins the balance between movement and combat by effectively nerfing attacking players because the inclusion of sprint disallows attacking players to move at max speed. We have of course discussed other issues such as the ease of escape, the inability to constantly look around and jump at full length at all times, and the buff to vehicle boarding as well as a few others, but there's no point in reinterring every argument in every post.
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Not every relationship you brought up was clear,
Which ones?
I specifically explained the differences between jetpack and the grav lift already, the others mostly involved a mix between multiple pieces of equipment, meaning that many pieces of equipment were not truly brought over, but were instead glued together into one ability.
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Nuss902928 wrote:
...this isn't as simple as adding a few extra game modes,
Yeah, it actually really is. If radar and shields can be removed for a gametype, if player movement speed, jump height, and gravity can be altered for another, then there is absolutely no rational argument as to why a gametype with "No Sprint" cannot be implemented in as broad as is popular to sustain it.
Once again, changes to one or two singular gamemodes are nothing compared to the addition of another playlist with all gamemodes included. Its not as if we would be adding just a few new gamemodes to the existing ones with this solution, instead we would essentially have two mirror playlists with the only difference being the presence/absence of sprint, meaning that each and every gamemode would have two lobbies
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...you have acknowledged several times now that sprint does have limitations and tradeoffs, and yet despite that I am somehow meant to believe that I and others who do not like sprint simply "have preferences,"
The limitations that are recognized have largely - almost exclusively - gone towards illustrating with specific examples how little an impact Sprint has on combat, despite negative claims to the contrary.
Indeed, you've attempted to downplay every negative aspect of sprint, most recently we've been discussing the issue of easier escapes and you keep trying to hark on about how hard it is to engage sprint under fire but all this requires is a simple corner or a medium sized piece of cover, neither of which are rare in Halo. To be fair, it could be that these things simply don't bother you as much as they bother me, but in either case they are limitations and they clearly show that there are more than preferences at play. It doesn't matter how little you think these limitations impact the game, as long as you acknowledge that they exist than it is dishonest to say that I and others simply have preferences.
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Utilized properly and tactfully, any and all drawbacks to Sprint become marginal and non-issues, only becoming evident in the instance of misuse.
Again your characterization of these drawbacks as marginal is entirely subjective, and in some cases rather dubious, the fact that combat and max speed have been separated is anything but marginal.
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I also have addressed "Max Speed" and argued how it is a misconception to treat Sprint as locking "Top BMS" away. More so in that it is always available; it's been pointed out to me several times how a player spawns with this ability.
You've made some semantical arguments about sprint merely being a speed boost but the problem with that is that sprint is more than just a speed boost, it does more than just increase speed, and speed doesn't need to be tied to the restrictions of sprint. If there was a similar speed boost that allowed you to keep your gun up and move in all directions that came with an accuracy penalty, then I would be much happier with that (although I would still be skeptical of it until I tried it out), because in that case there is still a drawback, but nothing has been fully taken away. Max speed is not always available with sprint, most basic actions are taken away when you choose to sprint, hence why it is locking top BMS away. Spawning with a restrictive ability that lets you move at max speed and being able to constantly move at max speed passively without a restrictive ability are two very different things.
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How? You physically cannot Sprint away if you are under fire. If you are not under fire, then the chances are good that you would get away regardless. I really only have your word here on this, and as the issue discussed was sprinting away from combat, the mechanics clearly prevent this.
Again, all you need is a piece of cover or a corner for sprint to save you, or you could already be sprinting and simply continue to sprint, and that's once again assuming that these exact restrictions will return. Not being under fire or breaking line of sight for a moment does not mean that you are safe from your pursuer, despite some limitations, sprint helps with escaping, the fact that even you say that "the chances are good" shows that it is not certain that the player would have gotten away without sprint. You also called this problem "hyperbolic" earlier, meaning that you know that it is an issue, just not one that you think matters much apparently.
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How would vehicle size be an issue? Most smaller maps could easily fit at least a few mongooses or ghosts, and some 4v4 maps could even fit some warthogs.
Ergo map design limits vehicle placements based on size. Vehicle speed matters very little, which is why maps like High Ground have a Mongoose and Ghost, not a Warthog, despite a Ghost being faster than a Warthog by 4 mph.
You could easily drive a warthog around High Ground, the only size barrier would be the gate, which I am almost certain a warthog could drive through, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that there was a gamemode which included warthogs on High Ground, does anybody else remember this? Maybe it was just a forge map. I'll test this tomorrow.

Edit: So I just went back to High Ground and not only can a Warthog fit through the gate (so easily that I'm not sure why I doubted myself) but the gate doesn't even need to be open to get to the other side of the map, you can just drive up the pile of rubble to the right of the gate, and then take a hard left. And Warthogs aren't even the biggest thing that can fit through the gate either, scorpions can too.

I will once again point out that BTB maps are huge and that they are far too large for foot travel alone and that vehicles make them playable. To think that the extra speed of vehicles plays very little role in the extreme sizes of BTB maps especially is absurd, it would be difficult to even finish most BTB matchs without vehicles because of the amount of time spent running around just trying to find the enemy team, much less kill them.
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INTIAL POST: In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!

can we talk about how poorly this aged? Only a few months later at e3 this got resolved the other way
We don’t talk about those things out loud 😉. I still believe we need to wait to see the multiplayer reveal, so we can analyze the total package of what we will be receiving.
And as illustrated, there is no time delay anymore.
Time delay is still an ignoratio elenchi. The issue is that you're not able to do the two things concurrently. Having or not having a time delay does not change this fact.

The lowering of weapons is a minor issue
No it isn't.

If this point is invoking an emotional response from you, then perhaps you need to take a day or two to calm down before making a reply, rather than accusing me of trying to intentionally upset you because I "have no argument".
I never said it did. On the contrary, I wanted to point out how it doesn't provoke an emotional response, so you can stop wasting your time trying to force one out of me.

Not really. You want to be moving at the fastest speed possible, while also being able to fire. You don't need to be, and that you cannot Sprint and shoot is not detrimental to physical gameplay.
My personal preference is irrelvant to this discussion. You refuse to accept that sprint changes the gameplay by restricing player's abilities, as you keep on claiming that having sprint without a time delay is allegedly the same as not having sprint. Which is plain false.
For the record, we haven't even started talking about advantages or detriments to the overall gameplay, and we can't, as long as you refuse to accept basic facts on the objective function of how the sprint mechanic works.

blatantly ignoring the benefits that Sprint does factually offer
Name one. So far, all of the defining features of the sprint mechanic are restrictions:
- It disables attacking when moving at 100% speed and inversely locks you out of top speed when fighting, both of which you were previously able to do.
- It locks your movement into the forward direction, removing the omnidirectionality from previous games.
- It makes speeds between 75% and 100% completely inaccessible by providing an abrupt change in speed instead of a continuous one (like Doom's "run" mechanic does, for example).
- Depending on the implementation of the mechanic there are even more downsides: like a cooldown, which forces you back to 75% after a set time; or the disabling of shield recharge.

and dismissing and even ridiculing examples of how those limitations can be mitigated.
Objectively pointing out the inherent nonsense of "just stop using it" is not the same as actively ridiculing it.

Rhetorically, see if you can maintain whatever input would equal to 7.92 m/s for the majority of gameplay, only extending to 10.3 m/s circumstantially as it benefits in a specific moment. Better not drift into 8 m/s, as that would break the rhetorical hypothetical "solution" of tilt discipline.
Give me a tool to consistently measure my speed on a percent level for the duration of a match and I'll gladly test it out.

No, it is not. 100% movement is 7.92 m/s. Base Movement Speed. Sprint, at 10.3 m/s, is a 30% increase in speed. Sprinting speed, and thus mechanically the fastest speed possible, is 130%.
100% is a player's top speed. It's irrelevant how this is achieved.
Sprint speed refers to the speed that can be reached using sprint.
Base Movement Speed is - literally - the basic movement speed that can be reached without the use of external mechanics or other means, i.e. the speed that is mapped to the max deflection of the left analog stick.
In games without sprint, BMS is equal to 100%. In games with sprint, sprint speed is equal to 100%. Neither of those is inherently identical to 100% but depending on the game they are equal to top speed.
Treating BMS as if it were identical to top speed is not only false, it's also completely meaningless, you could just as well claim crouch speed to be 100% and refer to both BMS and sprint speed as multiples of that.

Which is the current iteration being discussed at large, until more information is available on Halo Infinite and how Sprint functions in that game.
It would have been helpful if you had actually said that at any point before, as I (and from what I can see at least tsassi and Nuss as well) was always talking about the sprint mechanic as a general concept.

Because you are not in combat while Sprinting.
That's a consequence of sprint disabling shooting. I was asking for the reason why it needs to do that.

And should you need to be, pull the trigger. You are now immediately in combat, with no difference
Yet, there is a difference. You are no longer moving at top speed. That is the difference.
But apparently a 25% speed drop doesn't qualify as a difference anymore. Oh well. Since there's no longer a difference now between using sprint and not using sprint, there's also no reason for any objections to sprint's removal in the first place.
Well the season 6 update for mcc just reinforces why halo doesn’t need sprint just increase the fov in video settings it feels soooo much better now
QtoCool wrote:
Well the season 6 update for mcc just reinforces why halo doesn’t need sprint just increase the fov in video settings it feels soooo much better now
FOV is good for field of view and the impression of moving faster, but it does not factually make you move faster. Sprint does, ergo a wider FOV doesn't replace that function.
I would keep the stagger, as that would directly reward getting away along with the satisfaction of successfully getting away, and I would keep the shield freeze to make Sprinting more of a risk in the wrong situation. I don't really have an opinion on the weapon lowering one way or another.

And even if the stagger and shield freeze were removed, and Sprint was returned to a short duration (which I would support), that would be a reasonable limitation in that I can only get so far.
So, why do you care so much about sprint being finite? What's in it for you? Because from my point of view, I remember having to push a button every few seconds on long stretches to be just annoying busywork.

Might just not feel like it, or be distracted outside the game, or maybe it's a corridor where there's stuff going on in the distance. Sometimes I'm content with going full BMS through "Crow's Nest", and other times I just want to get it done. If I could Sprint in some of those areas, I would.

And realistically, on a human level, my LS is generally full-tilt. 95% of the time, I'm going full BMS. It's only those times where I'm either impatient or I need the 30% speed boost, that I click to use it.
Of course there are reasons one might not feel the need to. But is there any reason why you explicitly would not want to run through the corridor at top speed?

I'm just returning here back to the discussion about what's the point of having so many different speeds. Or more precisely, what's the point of having this specific toggle. And not just in the context of this featureless corridor, but in general. Because personally, the combination of crouch walk plus the analog stick always served me perfectly well. When I felt the need to be sneaky, I would crouch walk. When I was in a precarious position that required precision movement, the analog stick was enough. I've never had a situation where I've felt the need to have another option between those two and the top speed.

Well, there have been a few times in Campaign combat here recently that I have used Sprint to positive effect. It's useful for getting out from under Wraith blasts and Hunters, as well as Incinerator Cannons and when in sights for Beam Rifles. The Warden's gravity sphere attacks as well.

So far as Multiplayer, it would be difficult but I can conceive of the situation where an enemy is reloading, and Sprint could be used to close the gap to finish them off, potentially with an assassination if you're deft enough. It's also useful (albeit risky) to use with Gravity Hammers and Swords. It's a common tactic to Sprint around with those weapons, attacking when in range. Having no shield recharge makes it a risk, but the high damage output of those weapons makes it useful. Especially for rear-advance ambushes.
You can find ways to use any mechanic in combat. That's not really the point. That's not enough to make it compatible with complementarity because there is the interference part: use of the mechanic must not interfere with the player's combat abilities. If use of the mechanic pulls the player out of combat, it's by definition not compatible with complementarity.

FOV is good for field of view and the impression of moving faster, but it does not factually make you move faster. Sprint does, ergo a wider FOV doesn't replace that function.
A lot of people would tell you that they liked the movement of Halo 3 the least, because it was just so slow. Of course it wasn't. It just had the narrowest field of view in the series which made it feel so slow. Do those people care? Does the actual speed of Halo 3 not being any slower than Halo 2 or CE make their criticism less valid?

I would argue that in game design perception matters most. The numbers I care so much about don't actually matter that much, in the grand scheme of things. Like, it's nice and all to establish the facts, but it doesn't actually matter much that the speed in Halo 3 is 2.25 units per second, and Halo 5 sprint is 50% faster than that. That's true, I know it, I've tested it, but that doesn't change the fact that when I go from Halo 3 at 120 FoV to sprinting in Halo 5 with its ~78 degree FoV, the latter feels like walking in molasses to me.

If you've given FoV a fair shot, and you still don't find it a substitute for raw speed, that's fine. You tried, your perception wasn't fooled. You need more speed. But I find asking speed for sake of speed kind of unmotivated. I mean, if you don't want speed to feel faster, then what do you want it for?
Nuss902928 wrote:
Those first two points are not tied to sprint inherently, they only represent how it can be implemented,
You misunderstand. Those are already in place. They are not hypotheticals, they are the functions as current.

To cut to it, the reason I think the "impact on combat" is not a big a deal as it is being made is that the strongest factor is that you can't move at the fastest speed possible and shoot. Only projectile weapons (moving at the speed they are) aren't truly affected by this in any great and impacting way. Melee weapons are affected (either positively or negatively, your mileage may vary) as you're able to get closer much faster, and catch players who aren't aware of their surroundings off-guard far easier.

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...the grappleshot will be present in both campaign and multiplayer, meaning that players will be using it in both modes.
And yet, while it is present in both, in Campaign it will be always present, a core ability, with unlimited use. In Multiplayer, it will be a pick-up. So we're already going to have to make that form of adaptation, meaning that it would not be an inordinately difficult application of Sprint, either. It does not need to be removed entirely for issues - if truly present - to be resolved.

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I've already stated that these examples are meant to show what the players abilities and tools are in a specific level or part of a level, and how the player can only engage with the tools that they have been given,
This is what you're saying now, yet persistently prior to this you've been attempting to discredit the usefulness of Sprint by saying that if The Devs want a level to take a certain amount of time to complete, then there is nothing a player can do to change it.

Which really also doesn't touch on the application of Sprint.

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The key difference that I brought up with reloading was that it is always punishing, it doesn't sometimes reward the player like sprint can.
No, this is inaccurate still. If it takes two to three 114mm to drop a Field Marshall, and I've only got two in my magazine, if I reload my Sniper Rifle before taking my shot I have a better chance of taking that Sangheili down. I have been rewarded with combat readiness and improved odds for a kill. Not all rewards need come with a fanfare of confetti, often it's just success and efficacy.

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my issue with this is that it ruins the balance between movement and combat by effectively nerfing attacking players because the inclusion of sprint disallows attacking players to move at max speed.
While using firearms. Which doesn't nerf them whatsoever, in that you're firing a ranged weapon; your movement speed does not benefit or punish the efficacy of your weapon. Moving at max speed while firing is a desire, not a necessity, and doesn't offer a benefit even if you were able to. This will be touched on further down.

On the other hand, with melee weapons, Sprint becomes exceptionally effective. As they are close-range weapons, the ability to close the gap between you and your target is very beneficial, provided the enemy is unaware. If they see you coming, the freeze on shield recharge balances this out so that you are not completely unstoppable.

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I specifically explained the differences between jetpack and the grav lift already,
Which boiled down to them not working exactly the same. Okay. And yet, the relationship between the two is clearly present in the function of upward mobility. As are the relationships between the other Equipment and Abilities that I pointed out. They do not have to function exactly the same to be a derivative, and evidence that those perks were brought over into later games and reimplemented.

Tech that has truly been done away with was stuff like the Holographic Decoy, Regeneration Field, Promethean Vision, Autosentry (though it was a carry over from the Auto-Turret), and Hardlight Shield.

Nuss902928 wrote:
Indeed, you've attempted to downplay every negative aspect of sprint,
And given that I've provided direct and specific examples to counter "what if" scenarios, I'd say that I have. Like "harping" on how you're physically unable to just sprint out of combat to counter the "what if" that players can just "escape". And again, if a player is able to take advantage of cover available to do that, chances are good you weren't going to be able to kill them anyways.

The downsides of Sprint have been recognized, and this is not a measure to demean the disliking of Sprint. It is to illustrate how the issues are derived from personal enjoyment or lack thereof, not a symptom of a broken mechanic.

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as long as you acknowledge that they exist than it is dishonest to say that I and others simply have preferences.
No, it is not. It is realistic, and this is why I brought in to compare several other mechanics that have equally impacting (sometimes more so) downsides to player agency and gameplay. To illustrate that everything in Halo has a tradeoff. It doesn't matter that players spawn with sprint, because the downsides do not exist immediately and inherently. They exist circumstantially, and without specific examples they exist hypothetically, nothing more.

More to the point, the only downside that I have stated is little more than a preference is the desire to be going "max speed" while firing. Which, as illustrated a little ways down, doesn't offer any great benefit or advantage, even when everyone else is moving at full BMS.

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You've made some semantical arguments about sprint merely being a speed boost
No. You and Celestis have tried to relegate it to semantics, if you want to bring up dishonesty in debate. Yet I have provided factual evidence[i/i] that the BMS has remained relatively the same, and Sprint has been added as an additional boost to that BMS. Viewing this as "locking away" max speed "unlike the classic games" is [i]your perception, as the BMS was not dropped significantly below what Sprint would provide.

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If there was a similar speed boost that allowed you to keep your gun up and move in all directions
Like this? While the Speed Boost has temporary downsides of it's own, it offers everything you're wanting and then some.
Nuss902928 wrote:
You also called this problem "hyperbolic" earlier, meaning that you know that it is an issue, just not one that you think matters much apparently.
No, it means that I think it's a hyperbolic issue. Meaning that you're making more of it than is there. Nothing in Halo Matchmaking is ever guaranteed. Not a single thing. I could spawn a tank and be immediately hijacked and destroyed by an enemy who has nothing but a Plasma Pistol and one solitary grenade. Having the tank doesn't guarantee me victory, and it would be just as hyperbolic to rail and wail that the Plasma Pistol is overpowered against vehicles and a cheap tactic that ruins the flow of vehicular combat.

In equal measure it's making a mountain out of a molehill to argue that Sprint negatively affects combat because people can run away. This has been shown to be quite difficult to pull off through stagger and shield freeze. Now we hear about the use of covers and corners, and then sprinting away. Yet cover and corners exist as obstacles for BMS as well, so it's not Sprint that is letting players get away from you now, it's the map itself.

These things happen, and Sprint cannot logically be a scapegoat for that event.

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You could easily drive a warthog around High Ground,
Easily? Then why doesn't it spawn? The Mongoose is slower than the Ghost, why didn't they put a Warthog on the beach?

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I will once again point out that BTB maps are huge and that they are far too large for foot travel alone and that vehicles make them playable.
BTB maps are also very wide-open, allowing for a wider range of vehicles to take advantage of the playspace. As opposed to a Warthog or Scorpion being rendered ineffective to the point of detriment on a fully populated "High Ground" (more people than you alone in a Forge map driving around), BTB maps accommodate the size of the vehicles, not their speed. If speed was the issue, Warthogs and Scorpions would be on "High Ground".
TheKiltdHeathen I don't mean to be yet another person with whom you participate in heated debates, but I've noticed you seem to like talking about how sprint is exceedingly helpful for melee weapons. I'm curious as to what your thoughts would be toward the possibility of swords and hammers simply imbuing the player with a faster BMS when equipped. This would provide all the properties of sprinting with a sword/hammer on top of being able to do it in all directions. Strictly in the case of melee weapons, would that satisfy you?

This is not a challenge, merely a desire to see your point of view. Reply at your convenience.
tsassi wrote:
So, why do you care so much about sprint being finite?
For that, I don't quite care but I would support/not be against Sprint being returned to a finite duration, as for me personally I've never used it in a long stretch. As Halo Infinite is far more open world, I would assume Sprint will either remain unlimited or have a longer duration than Halo 4, but that's just speculation on my end.

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I'm just returning here back to the discussion about what's the point of having so many different speeds. Or more precisely, what's the point of having this specific toggle.
Well, similar to your mention of the crouch toggle. Not exact percentages, but 80% of my general play movement is BMS, the ranges that we have on the LS alone. More often full-tilt. 10% crouch-walking, which is where the "toggle-down" function of B works well, and 10% sprinting which is best left isolated on the "toggle-up" of a LS click.

This is also where FOV doesn't substitute the applications of Sprint. I enjoy being able to expand my FOV to see more (actually quite excited to play around with that), but one of the effects is that it only makes it feel like I'm going faster or slower.

This'll help to reduce the difference between Halo 2 and Halo 3 - as you're physically moving at the same speed - but it doesn't quite handle areas that I consider "tedious". Because ultimately, the same time is going to be spent with an inability to expedite it even momentarily. Speed is wanted not to feel faster but to be faster.

(That said, do you have ranges for the FOV to balance out Halo 3 with what Halo 2 is?)

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You can find ways to use any mechanic in combat. That's not really the point. That's not enough to make it compatible with complementarity because there is the interference part: use of the mechanic must not interfere with the player's combat abilities.
As I've compared, several things interfere with a player's combat ability. As a positive Sprint is at least an active decision (and again, combat isn't really the best time to use it), as opposed to reloading or overheating being forced on you mid-combat.

As for the applications I noted last post, if I'm sprinting to evade a Wraith mortar or Hunter bomb, I'm not in a combat situation where firing would be of any use. So having that function limited for a second or so while I relocate isn't a hindrance. If I'm using it to evade sniper fire rather than attempt to descope them, I'm likely in a position where again, weapons aren't useful.

So for these situations, the interference is more likely than not already imposed before I choose to Sprint. What weapons I have are assumedly useless, and maybe Sprinting to get new weapons or ammo is the goal; making it there and back quicker.

------------

I'm curious as to what your thoughts would be toward the possibility of swords and hammers simply imbuing the player with a faster BMS when equipped.
The Energy Swords already do, enough so that you will show up on motion tracker while crouch-walking. I don't have number comparisons, but this is a noted gameplay change from Halo 4. Some add to this with additional movement increases, namely the Prophet's Bane and Tartarus' Gavel, though Gravity Hammers don't increase movement speed on their own.

This is useful for these weapons, making you more nimble in general combat. Sprint makes them more of a potential threat, with a quicker approach to targets.

However, if this was to be the only source of Sprint (or a like mechanic), then it wouldn't be as easily applicable to other situations as noted in my previous post to Tsassi. There are still situations where Sprint is useful, and if you don't have an Energy Sword or Gravity Hammer (though, I'm not too keen on Hammers adding speed, from a thematic stance), you won't be able to take advantage of that.
TheKiltdHeathen I don't mean to be yet another person with whom you participate in heated debates, but I've noticed you seem to like talking about how sprint is exceedingly helpful for melee weapons. I'm curious as to what your thoughts would be toward the possibility of swords and hammers simply imbuing the player with a faster BMS when equipped. This would provide all the properties of sprinting with a sword/hammer on top of being able to do it in all directions. Strictly in the case of melee weapons, would that satisfy you?

This is not a challenge, merely a desire to see your point of view. Reply at your convenience.
I'm not him, but honestly that's a good thing. Basically Halo 5's Sword did "increased speed" right...until sprint (and thruster & slide) made it a problem to the point it had to be "tuned", as in removed and replaced with a sword that doesn't give increased speed in ranked modes.

Honestly describes the entirety of Halo 5 for me:

  • They gave the melee weapons an inherent sprint-level speed boost to discourage camping...and then put sprint on top of it.
  • They increased the base movement speed by nearly 15% compared to Halo 4...and then put sprint on top of it.
  • They made Speed Boost a legitimate power up on the level of Active Camo and OS...and then put sprint on top of it.
(That said, do you have ranges for the FOV to balance out Halo 3 with what Halo 2 is?)
Here's a list of the FoVs in the Bungie games: http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive38.pl?read=1138638
Sprint is something I've kind of just dealt with.
I believe the inclusion in Halo Reach had it best as an armour ability.
I liked that it was limited and a person had to wait a while before they could do it again. I think this is a route that could be travelled again. No unlimited sprint, no freezing of the shield recharge and I guess it would reduce the amount of spartan charges etc.

I think sprint is here to stay but I guess its a matter of deciding what game did it best from the past Halo games and then taking it from there.

As long as the map breaking jet pack doesn't come back then I'll be content. I don't need anymore jet pack snipers setting up camp outside of maps.
TheKiltdHeathen I don't mean to be yet another person with whom you participate in heated debates, but I've noticed you seem to like talking about how sprint is exceedingly helpful for melee weapons. I'm curious as to what your thoughts would be toward the possibility of swords and hammers simply imbuing the player with a faster BMS when equipped. This would provide all the properties of sprinting with a sword/hammer on top of being able to do it in all directions. Strictly in the case of melee weapons, would that satisfy you?

This is not a challenge, merely a desire to see your point of view. Reply at your convenience.
Seriously, why are we all still talking about sprint and if it should be in the game or not. Sprint has already been confirmed almost a year ago now. That’s it
Seriously, why are we all still talking about sprint and if it should be in the game or not. Sprint has already been confirmed almost a year ago now. That’s it
Because a good portion of the population don't want it in. Why are we still talking about playable elites?

Generally speaking, most people who like sprint are casual players, and that's fine. However they are more likely to jump to whatever the new flavor of the month is and drop Halo. That leaves the competitive/diehard fans having to deal with sprint even they're not even the ones who wanted it in the first place.
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