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The return of classic movement mechanics?

OP A So So Sniper

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tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
Jesus -Yoinking!- christ. Games are designed to be FUN. That's it.

Realism or closeness to lore does not inherently make a game more fun or balanced, so please stop using lore to justify your arguments one way or the other, it's absolutely irrelevant.
Is your issue not with what people say, but how they say it? If somebody came in and explained that performing all these animations help them feel more connected with the game world because it matches their idea of a Spartan's movement better, and that makes the game more enjoyable for them, would you be fine with that? I'm not changing the content of what's being said here, just making it less declarative, and more about personal experience.
This would be an improvement because there's actually something to discuss, and because the reasons for their preferences are made clear.
Quote:
But at the same time, it's really not fair to say that supporters of enhanced movement aren't allowed to use their preferences as some underlying justification, because the opponents do it all the time. Like, everybody says that their preferred gameplay is faster, assuming speed equates to fun.
I wasn't trying to say that. I understand both sides of the isles are doing this, which is why I said:
Quote:
justify your arguments one way or the other
I just used the enhanced mobility point as an example because it's the one I remember seeing most frequently.
What an interesting thread, definitely a controversial argument regarding whether or not Halo should have sprint.

I am going to provide my own analysis for the direction that Halo has taken, and why I feel that it has taken the direction that it has in Halo Infinite.

Personally I don't have a problem with sprint, however I can understand why people don't favour it. I loved the gameplay of Halo 3 and I loved having to manoeuvre around the map in creative ways; using jumps and crouch jumps & landing on ramps for momentum.

Halo Reach & Halo 4

Starting from where sprint was introduced in Halo Reach, this was the first game that had spartan abilities. They had taken quite a different direction inheriting bloom and a new style of gameplay compared to Halo 3. Due to bloom, the competitive circuit eventually died, as it was due to bloom that the speed of competitive gameplay slowed right down. Once zero bloom was introduced it was too late, although the fast paced gameplay had been restored.

When 343 was established to create Halo 4, they were then inheriting a game with spartan abilities. I feel personally that there was a huge emphasis on the story - which is fair, due to how Halo 3 had ended - that there wasn't as much focus on the multiplayer; including forge. I've found that forge and custom games is the backbone of multiplayer, as forge allows the creation of new competitive maps and new fun gametypes.

Halo 5

Returning back to the point of multiplayer - just like Halo Reach - everyone had a different spartan ability. Even though sprint was a default ability, everyone was not on equal ground when it came to multiplayer gameplay; excluding competitive. It's for this reason that I believe that Halo 5 was designed to resolve this, by giving everyone the exact same armour abilities; putting everyone on equal ground.

The armour abilities that were introduced were:
  • Sprint
  • Clamber
  • Ground Pound
  • Spartan Charge
  • Dash
  • Slide
  • Smart Scope
Now that everyone was on equal ground, it completely changed the style of gameplay. The abilities introduced allowed for better and faster manoeuvrability. It is for this reason that Halo 5 remains the fast paced competitive game that it is today. The upsides from this was that it revived the Halo competitive circuit - including the help of micro transactions - and introduced a new fast paced style of gameplay, however the downsides remain the same, it has all become too fast paced.

A note to add, to nerf sprint in Halo 5, they had removed the ability to recharge shields while sprinting; I believe that this was a great addition, otherwise you could sprint with no consequence like in Halo 4.

Halo Infinite

From what I had witnessed with the Halo Infinite reveal, they have kept the same armour abilities and have removed the following:
  • Ground Pound
  • Spartan Charge
  • Dash
  • Smart Scope
Leaving the 3:
  • Sprint
  • Clamber
  • Slide
I feel that this was a very smart decision - like Halo 5, despite the long term outcome - and it will help balance the multiplayer gameplay. For me personally, it's because of these abilities that I really feel like a super solider, and I love the new manoeuvrability regarding the multiplayer environments; I feel it allows for more creative gameplay from the player. It is also exciting that they have introduced gadgets again too.

In conclusion I really like the new direction that Halo Infinite has taken, and I am really looking forward to the new multiplayer. Like in Halo Reach and Halo 5, I feel that it would be great to add a classic gametype, so that players on both sides can feel satisfaction.

Again I do not hold either side superior to the other, as I feel both hold valid points. This was just a summary that I have put together observing the development of the Halo franchise from Halo 3.

Thank you for taking the time to read my reply :)

GG Panda GG <3
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
The reason Shyway likes (Halo 5's) sprint and why many people dislike sprint are usually disassociated from each other. Not always, but sometimes.

This video for example is pretty far away from why I dislike sprint, so from the beginning I disagree with his title, and see a very huge flaw with his very foundation.

And this is coming from Shyway who has said he would have liked to play Halo Infinite in the direction of no sprint but add thrusters.
5. The removal of sprint does not necessarily mean the game will be “dumbed down” from its predecessors and strip options from the player. It would, in fact, add more options, since one can now attack and move at max speed in all directions at all times. Sprint forces the player to choose whether to move or to shoot, when both areas of gameplay could be easily united if sprint is removed.
This point from the initial post is not true. You will strip options from the player and will not add more options. In classic halo, knowledge of the map was crucial because it was what made a player have good flowing movement around the map. It relied on teleporters, lifts, and equipment such as speed boost. Some of which worked well but not all. This however still stands in halo 5. 80% of the match is spent with the gun up. Sprint is not needed for a vast majority of the time. Sprint is used to get to control areas quickly or go aid a teammate in need. However, it cannot be used willy nilly because you are an easy target when sprinting. It needs to be used properly because it is a tool.

Also both classic and halo 5 multiplayer rely on map control. The movement mechanics added to halo 5 have not made it a run and gun shooter like call of duty. It still relies on map control just like classic halo and enough experience with halo 5 will mp will show that.

Halo 5 is not perfect and also has its own flaws but I don't believe point 5 is true. Taking out sprint is fine as long as new tools can take its spot. Higher base movement speed is not the same.

I like and enjoy both styles so I'm happy either way.
This point from the initial post is not true. You will strip options from the player and will not add more options.
No, the addition of sprint limits player options.
This point from the initial post is not true. You will strip options from the player and will not add more options.
No, the addition of sprint limits player options.
No, the addition of sprint expands player options.
This point from the initial post is not true. You will strip options from the player and will not add more options.
No, the addition of sprint limits player options.
No, the addition of sprint expands player options.
This would apply if only sprint were added and all other variables remained the same. What actually happens though is that everything in the game, including maps, are rebalanced to accommodate for sprint. This means that at any point in the map, sprint speed is the ideal speed to travel, but in order to sprint, you need to suspend all combat abilities.

This contrasts with classic halo, where there is only one ideal speed (because there is only one speed) and at that speed you can perform all combat abilities. Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
Does it? I don't get the logic here.

In classic Halo I can engage the enemy by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.

But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting. But I also have thrusters (albeit intermittently). And, if the opportunity arises I may be able to sprint again (although unlikely in a one on one). I get it that I can do everything all the time... but I definitely have more options.
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.

The point is that because everything is rescaled, you can never move at the optimal speed and be in combat at the same time. Maps are made bigger, but when you are in combat, you can't move at the speed at which the map has been scaled for. I dunno how many other ways I can phrase it.

I think what you're not understanding is that being able to sprint is not an extra option. Being forced to sprint to traverse the map optimally TAKES AWAY your options (shoot, jump melee, grenade, scope, etc). The MAXIMUM movement speed is now handicapped. That is NOT more options. In order to have access to these abilities, you must intentionally SLOW yourself down to a sub optimal speed.
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.

The point is that because everything is rescaled, you can never move at the optimal speed and be in combat at the same time. Maps are made bigger, but when you are in combat, you can't move at the speed at which the map has been scaled for. I dunno how many other ways I can phrase it.

I think what you're not understanding is that being able to sprint is not an extra option. Being forced to sprint to traverse the map optimally TAKES AWAY your options (shoot, jump melee, grenade, scope, etc). The MAXIMUM movement speed is now handicapped. That is NOT more options. In order to have access to these abilities, you must intentionally SLOW yourself down to a sub optimal speed.
Generally during combat I am no longer trying transverse the map so the only speed that is important is the one that I use to traverse the area of engagement.

The initial engagement can take many forms. Sprint / slide provide options. I may (or may not) be forced to sprint across the map. But I am not forced to sprint into the actual engagement. That gives me options. How I round that corner into an area where the enemy is waiting is important. I may (or may not) be slowing - but where we disagree is that either speed is sub-optimal. The important bit for me is that I have options.
Darwi wrote:
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.

The point is that because everything is rescaled, you can never move at the optimal speed and be in combat at the same time. Maps are made bigger, but when you are in combat, you can't move at the speed at which the map has been scaled for. I dunno how many other ways I can phrase it.

I think what you're not understanding is that being able to sprint is not an extra option. Being forced to sprint to traverse the map optimally TAKES AWAY your options (shoot, jump melee, grenade, scope, etc). The MAXIMUM movement speed is now handicapped. That is NOT more options. In order to have access to these abilities, you must intentionally SLOW yourself down to a sub optimal speed.
Generally during combat I am no longer trying transverse the map so the only speed that is important is the one that I use to traverse the area of engagement.

The initial engagement can take many forms. Sprint / slide provide options. I may (or may not) be forced to sprint across the map. But I am not forced to sprint into the actual engagement. That gives me options. How I round that corner into an area where the enemy is waiting is important. I may (or may not) be slowing - but where we disagree is that either speed is sub-optimal. The important bit for me is that I have options.
No, you're under the illusion of having options. Every instant you're not sprinting is an instant where you are moving at suboptimal speed. Imagine in halo 3 you decide you're going to run 80% slower. How ridiculous would that be? There's no need to, because there is no penalty for running at 100% speed. What you're not seeing is that sprint essentially penalises you for running at 100% speed. Its not an ability, is a disability. 343 might slap a label on it calling it an ability, and might give it a brand new shiny animation, but at the end of the day, it's just an illusion.
Darwi wrote:
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.

The point is that because everything is rescaled, you can never move at the optimal speed and be in combat at the same time. Maps are made bigger, but when you are in combat, you can't move at the speed at which the map has been scaled for. I dunno how many other ways I can phrase it.

I think what you're not understanding is that being able to sprint is not an extra option. Being forced to sprint to traverse the map optimally TAKES AWAY your options (shoot, jump melee, grenade, scope, etc). The MAXIMUM movement speed is now handicapped. That is NOT more options. In order to have access to these abilities, you must intentionally SLOW yourself down to a sub optimal speed.
Generally during combat I am no longer trying transverse the map so the only speed that is important is the one that I use to traverse the area of engagement.

The initial engagement can take many forms. Sprint / slide provide options. I may (or may not) be forced to sprint across the map. But I am not forced to sprint into the actual engagement. That gives me options. How I round that corner into an area where the enemy is waiting is important. I may (or may not) be slowing - but where we disagree is that either speed is sub-optimal. The important bit for me is that I have options.
No, you're under the illusion of having options. Every instant you're not sprinting is an instant where you are moving at suboptimal speed. Imagine in halo 3 you decide you're going to run 80% slower. How ridiculous would that be? There's no need to, because there is no penalty for running at 100% speed. What you're not seeing is that sprint essentially penalises you for running at 100% speed. Its not an ability, is a disability. 343 might slap a label on it calling it an ability, and might give it a brand new shiny animation, but at the end of the day, it's just an illusion.
This is not how halo 5 is though. A player can reach nearly any part of any map in halo 5 without Sprint. There are a few trick jumps that require it but that is a skill jump which must be executed correctly and they are less than a handfull. You can easily traverse the map without Sprint. Sprint is an ability because it can be used at its own risk and if used correctly can reward you. That is why it is an actual ability and not an illusion.
Darwi wrote:
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.

The point is that because everything is rescaled, you can never move at the optimal speed and be in combat at the same time. Maps are made bigger, but when you are in combat, you can't move at the speed at which the map has been scaled for. I dunno how many other ways I can phrase it.

I think what you're not understanding is that being able to sprint is not an extra option. Being forced to sprint to traverse the map optimally TAKES AWAY your options (shoot, jump melee, grenade, scope, etc). The MAXIMUM movement speed is now handicapped. That is NOT more options. In order to have access to these abilities, you must intentionally SLOW yourself down to a sub optimal speed.
Generally during combat I am no longer trying transverse the map so the only speed that is important is the one that I use to traverse the area of engagement.

The initial engagement can take many forms. Sprint / slide provide options. I may (or may not) be forced to sprint across the map. But I am not forced to sprint into the actual engagement. That gives me options. How I round that corner into an area where the enemy is waiting is important. I may (or may not) be slowing - but where we disagree is that either speed is sub-optimal. The important bit for me is that I have options.
No, you're under the illusion of having options. Every instant you're not sprinting is an instant where you are moving at suboptimal speed. Imagine in halo 3 you decide you're going to run 80% slower. How ridiculous would that be? There's no need to, because there is no penalty for running at 100% speed. What you're not seeing is that sprint essentially penalises you for running at 100% speed. Its not an ability, is a disability. 343 might slap a label on it calling it an ability, and might give it a brand new shiny animation, but at the end of the day, it's just an illusion.
This is not how halo 5 is though. A player can reach nearly any part of any map in halo 5 without Sprint. There are a few trick jumps that require it but that is a skill jump which must be executed correctly and they are less than a handfull. You can easily traverse the map without Sprint. Sprint is an ability because it can be used at its own risk and if used correctly can reward you. That is why it is an actual ability and not an illusion.
I never said you can't access parts of the map. I'm talking about the speed in which you move around the map.
Darwi wrote:
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.

The point is that because everything is rescaled, you can never move at the optimal speed and be in combat at the same time. Maps are made bigger, but when you are in combat, you can't move at the speed at which the map has been scaled for. I dunno how many other ways I can phrase it.

I think what you're not understanding is that being able to sprint is not an extra option. Being forced to sprint to traverse the map optimally TAKES AWAY your options (shoot, jump melee, grenade, scope, etc). The MAXIMUM movement speed is now handicapped. That is NOT more options. In order to have access to these abilities, you must intentionally SLOW yourself down to a sub optimal speed.
Generally during combat I am no longer trying transverse the map so the only speed that is important is the one that I use to traverse the area of engagement.

The initial engagement can take many forms. Sprint / slide provide options. I may (or may not) be forced to sprint across the map. But I am not forced to sprint into the actual engagement. That gives me options. How I round that corner into an area where the enemy is waiting is important. I may (or may not) be slowing - but where we disagree is that either speed is sub-optimal. The important bit for me is that I have options.
No, you're under the illusion of having options. Every instant you're not sprinting is an instant where you are moving at suboptimal speed. Imagine in halo 3 you decide you're going to run 80% slower. How ridiculous would that be? There's no need to, because there is no penalty for running at 100% speed. What you're not seeing is that sprint essentially penalises you for running at 100% speed. Its not an ability, is a disability. 343 might slap a label on it calling it an ability, and might give it a brand new shiny animation, but at the end of the day, it's just an illusion.
Where we digress is the illusion or otherwise that not sprinting is a sub-optimal speed.

It may be for map traversal... but why is it suboptimal for enemy engagement?

Some people may like the bigger maps; more varied, different sight lines, better spawns, different weapon ranges for engagement.

And yes, 80% speed in Halo 3 would be awful. You already feel like you are running in treacle (yes, I know it's mostly the FOV). Any slower and you wouldn't be able to move on the map without being cut to ribbons by the team dominating the high ground (which incidentally is what happens a full speed anyway).

And I guess this is the crux of the whole thread anyway. Using arguments to essentially confirm a personal bias towards your preferred outcome (classic vs enhanced).
Darwi wrote:
Darwi wrote:
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.

The point is that because everything is rescaled, you can never move at the optimal speed and be in combat at the same time. Maps are made bigger, but when you are in combat, you can't move at the speed at which the map has been scaled for. I dunno how many other ways I can phrase it.

I think what you're not understanding is that being able to sprint is not an extra option. Being forced to sprint to traverse the map optimally TAKES AWAY your options (shoot, jump melee, grenade, scope, etc). The MAXIMUM movement speed is now handicapped. That is NOT more options. In order to have access to these abilities, you must intentionally SLOW yourself down to a sub optimal speed.
Where we digress is the illusion or otherwise that not sprinting is a sub-optimal speed.

It may be for map traversal... but why is it suboptimal for enemy engagement?
If we assume that every dimension of the map has accounted for sprint, then that means the speed at which you navigate any such dimension of that map while not sprinting (e.g. during enemy engagement) is slower than the optimal speed.
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.
Stopped reading after your first line because you're already wrong right off the bat. And not just a little wrong. This line is like SUPER wrong. It's like you picked option e when there was only a, b, c, and d on the test. What are you even thinking at this point? That's how wrong this line is.

Go watch any high end player. There are literally tons of times every match where they use sprint and/ or slide to begin their challenges
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
I like Shyway, I’m subscribed to his channel, but I think in this video he makes some very flimsy arguments, that adds very little to the debate. It’s not some massive revelation that you can shoot instantly out of sprint with the Halo 5 Pistol. I think most everyone who has played Halo 5 knows this. And it in no way fixes everything.

The main points that old midship comparison was making was in regards to maps being scaled up to accommodate sprint. Clearly Truth as been up scaled. And the second point was that in OG halo you could shoot and throw grenades in any direction without any movement penalty. All Shyway proved was that you can shoot and throw grenades in the foreword direction with minimal penalty. One point is if his example was using the Halo 5 BR it has a slower draw time. Another is he had to use ramp slide jumps, bunny hops, a small shortcut/ skip and thrust in order to make up the time. He didn’t look at sprint in isolation. Note that in his example he didn’t shoot or throw grenades backwards. It isn’t a strong counter.

Anyway if all these ‘improvements’ made to sprint only make the game play closer to how Halo played before Sprint… What is the point of sprint?

Ok so you can do a sprint, slide, jump challenge… ok so I’ll concede it adds that one very small thing. Does that really constitute its inclusion? Does that over ride all the negatives?
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
Ok so you can do a sprint, slide, jump challenge… ok so I’ll concede it adds that one very small thing. Does that really constitute its inclusion? Does that over ride all the negatives.
Yes, because they are abilities that are easy-to-use but hard-to-master. Mechanics with that trait are almost always beneficial in a game because there is a positive influence on the skill gap.

A newer player can use these abilities, and understands them very quickly. A well practiced player knows when and how to best use them to punish opponents.

And as to the map scale, I've always just thought that's a dumb brainless argument. If they map size is scaled up, but so is every other aspect of the game, you're still getting a very similar experience between the two scales! The only major difference at that point is one of the situations has MORE techniques for a player to learn and master, which increases potential skill ceilings and adds more layers to combat.
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
It's always the same thing. People claim to make arguments in favor of sprint, but they actually spend the time talking about design decisions that have nothing to do with sprint. In this case: Slide. How does Shyway get from base to base on Truth while shooting? By conserving speed with Slide. If Slide wasn't in the game, none of the tactics would work. On the other hand, none of his tactics require the existence of sprint. We could just have Slide in place of Sprint. And sure, if you want to say that Slide is great, that's a different discussion that's worth having. But don't give sprint credit for something it didn't do. Sprint still adds no value to movement.

He's also neglecting how cumbersome the movement is. Yes, of course, if you practice a bit you'll become good at it, but having to turn left, start sprinting, slide, jump, turn right, shoot, and repeat just to maintain sideways momentum while shooting is completely unnecessary complexity when in the past all you had to do was hold the left stick left. Making existing actions more complex is easy, but it doesn't add value to the experience.
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