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The return of classic movement mechanics?

OP A So So Sniper

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tsassi wrote:
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
Making existing actions more complex is easy, but it doesn't add value to the experience.
It adds to the skill gap, and skill ceiling, as player who practice the techniques will have better and more fluid movement around the map than those who don't. See my reply to another user directly above for more details about why adding layers of complexity onto features has a positive impact on skill gaps.
tsassi wrote:
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
Making existing actions more complex is easy, but it doesn't add value to the experience.
It adds to the skill gap, and skill ceiling, as player who practice the techniques will have better and more fluid movement around the map than those who don't. See my reply to another user directly above for more details about why adding layers of complexity onto features has a positive impact on skill gaps.
We could add having to tap the grenade throw buttons twice, one to initiate a power gauge, and once more to throw with the power the gauge is at.
Then in order to add to the throwing angle you have to jump, and to decrease the angle on throw, making it more straight, you need to crouch.
Now, if you hold the button the second time, the grenade is primed as it leaves your hand.

Now, for scoping, I'm thinking that it would be a great idea if the gun's reticule isn't centered. In order to center the reticule, you need to hold the reload button and then use the right aiming stick to re-align the gun to the center.
tsassi wrote:
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
Making existing actions more complex is easy, but it doesn't add value to the experience.
It adds to the skill gap, and skill ceiling, as player who practice the techniques will have better and more fluid movement around the map than those who don't. See my reply to another user directly above for more details about why adding layers of complexity onto features has a positive impact on skill gaps.
As I said, making existing actions more complex is easy. You can make movement arbitrarily complex, and by extension arbitrarily difficult, just by adding extra steps between actions. You can take that to the extreme, and you get QWOP. If that's the kind of skill gap you find enjoyment in, good for you. I don't find that very interesting (outside of a game whose sole premise is making a single action extremely difficult). I think Halo's movement has much richer directions to progress than making basic actions difficult to execute. I think Halo 5 itself has richer movement to offer than needing to jump through hoops just to maintain speed. Again, if you don't have a problem with that, good for you, but is it a hill you want to die on?
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
Making existing actions more complex is easy, but it doesn't add value to the experience.
It adds to the skill gap, and skill ceiling, as player who practice the techniques will have better and more fluid movement around the map than those who don't. See my reply to another user directly above for more details about why adding layers of complexity onto features has a positive impact on skill gaps.
As I said, making existing actions more complex is easy. You can make movement arbitrarily complex, and by extension arbitrarily difficult, just by adding extra steps between actions. You can take that to the extreme, and you get QWOP. If that's the kind of skill gap you find enjoyment in, good for you. I don't find that very interesting (outside of a game whose sole premise is making a single action extremely difficult). I think Halo's movement has much richer directions to progress than making basic actions difficult to execute. I think Halo 5 itself has richer movement to offer than needing to jump through hoops just to maintain speed. Again, if you don't have a problem with that, good for you, but is it a hill you want to die on?
Nope, it's a hill I'm willing to sprint-slide-jump to while blasting opponents who aren't as good at the same gameplay execution 😉
Naqser wrote:
tsassi wrote:
"It was very flawed in the beginning. Over the last 10 years it's been improved upon until now, where it actually adds a lot of value."

Shyway perfectly addresses some normal sprint arguments.
Making existing actions more complex is easy, but it doesn't add value to the experience.
It adds to the skill gap, and skill ceiling, as player who practice the techniques will have better and more fluid movement around the map than those who don't. See my reply to another user directly above for more details about why adding layers of complexity onto features has a positive impact on skill gaps.
We could add having to tap the grenade throw buttons twice, one to initiate a power gauge, and once more to throw with the power the gauge is at.
Then in order to add to the throwing angle you have to jump, and to decrease the angle on throw, making it more straight, you need to crouch.
Now, if you hold the button the second time, the grenade is primed as it leaves your hand.

Now, for scoping, I'm thinking that it would be a great idea if the gun's reticule isn't centered. In order to center the reticule, you need to hold the reload button and then use the right aiming stick to re-align the gun to the center.
Most of those suggestions are hyperbole, and would have a MASSIVE influence on game fluidity. Sprint doesn't remove fluid gameplay at all, it just adds button combos into movement much like H2 had button combos for some combat.

Hyperbole arguments are just dumb, but your can keep going for them if you want I guess.
Most of those suggestions are hyperbole, and would have a MASSIVE influence on game fluidity. Sprint doesn't remove fluid gameplay at all, it just adds button combos into movement much like H2 had button combos for some combat.
I think sprint has a pretty massive negative impact on fluidity. I don't consider having to push a button every time I want to get back to top speed fluid, and I don't consider the aforementioned hoops one has to jump through to be very fluid. Of course, "fluid" is one of those deceptively subjective words that people think means the same to others as it does to them. So I don't expect you to agree with me, but understand that others perceive sprint exactly like you perceive that hyperbole. I don't think having to repeat a sequence of five separate actions just to be able to shoot while moving sideways is very far at all from that hyperbole.
tsassi wrote:
Most of those suggestions are hyperbole, and would have a MASSIVE influence on game fluidity. Sprint doesn't remove fluid gameplay at all, it just adds button combos into movement much like H2 had button combos for some combat.
I think sprint has a pretty massive negative impact on fluidity. I don't consider having to push a button every time I want to get back to top speed fluid, and I don't consider the aforementioned hoops one has to jump through to be very fluid. Of course, "fluid" is one of those deceptively subjective words that people think means the same to others as it does to them. So I don't expect you to agree with me, but understand that others perceive sprint exactly like you perceive that hyperbole. I don't think having to repeat a sequence of five separate actions just to be able to shoot while moving sideways is very far at all from that hyperbole.
You don't have to, you can just walk sideways and shoot if you want. You also have the option of trying a button combo to increase your sideways movement speed while shooting if you want too.

Switching between the two during matches, rather than always sprint sliding or always strafe shooting, will win you gunfights too. Because your opponent will have to adjust their aim depending on what movement speed you choose to use at the time. They won't always know where to pre- place their reticule or how fast they'll need to track it against you.

Players who practice will know which move will be more advantageous at the time too. So like I've been saying for a long time. H5's iteration of sprint increases engagement options, gives players something more to practice, and raises thre skill ceiling between new and practiced players.

All positives for Halo's skill gap
tsassi wrote:
Most of those suggestions are hyperbole, and would have a MASSIVE influence on game fluidity. Sprint doesn't remove fluid gameplay at all, it just adds button combos into movement much like H2 had button combos for some combat.
I think sprint has a pretty massive negative impact on fluidity. I don't consider having to push a button every time I want to get back to top speed fluid, and I don't consider the aforementioned hoops one has to jump through to be very fluid. Of course, "fluid" is one of those deceptively subjective words that people think means the same to others as it does to them. So I don't expect you to agree with me, but understand that others perceive sprint exactly like you perceive that hyperbole. I don't think having to repeat a sequence of five separate actions just to be able to shoot while moving sideways is very far at all from that hyperbole.
You don't have to, you can just walk sideways and shoot if you want. You also have the option of trying a button combo to increase your sideways movement speed while shooting if you want too.

Switching between the two during matches, rather than always sprint sliding or always strafe shooting, will win you gunfights too. Because your opponent will have to adjust their aim depending on what movement speed you choose to use at the time. They won't always know where to pre- place their reticule or how fast they'll need to track it against you.

Players who practice will know which move will be more advantageous at the time too. So like I've been saying for a long time. H5's iteration of sprint increases engagement options, gives players something more to practice, and raises thre skill ceiling between new and practiced players.

All positives for Halo's skill gap
I only read the last page of this discussion, but the thing I love about h5s gameplay is the difference in play styles and how unique matches feel from one another across the board playing different players of different skill sets. I loved the old games for what they were at the time, and the new games for whatever I felt worked.

I feel that...some of the movement arguments I've read all these 5 or 6 years now...kind of give me this idea that what some classic players really want is more predictable moments. They want that chess match scenario of check mate. Gotcha. Fish in a barrel. Give me my easy kill there is no way out.

So on one side of the coin...well sure it looks easy. That players basically dead. No empowerment. So where's the skill stem from? Well it stems from the sequence of steps taken to get the player into that scenario, or mistakes from that player that got themselves into that scenario.

The other flip side....you're extremely empowered even in your basic strafe. You're harder to hit, way less predictable, can become a wild card in a second and completely flip the check mate scenario if you're good enough. So a player who had the advantage can immediately feel like it was all for nothing. How the hell is this possible? (You can see the frustration sometimes quite literally)

The chess side of the game does still exist, but there are levels of complexity to understanding that the fish in a barrel scenario is possibly still there, but just harder to attain if your opponents are very good. You're still rewarded for the bread and butter of stuff like knowing spawns, strong vs weak positioning, spawn trapping etc...but with the element of sprint....my argument has always been that its usage is momentum. When people say it slows down the game, I just feel that they've perhaps never viewed it from the other perspective. I try to see both sides.

(Then of course all the fundamentals we've come to know and love to get around the maps in h5...the sprint combos, jumps etc. Honestly they FEEL fun, and I believe will be what players miss the most if certain features are removed are gone. Whether that's good or bad, skill argument etc is it's other whole can of worms to digest)

Just my opinion.
H5's iteration of sprint increases engagement options, gives players something more to practice, and raises thre skill ceiling between new and practiced players.
No, that's all the other abilities besides sprint. There is not a single trick in the game that relies on the existence of sprint, not a single trick. That sliding we've been talking about? Doesn't need sprint to implement. All the jumps in the game? Sprint just gives the initial momentum. That could just as well come from a fast base movement speed.

If there was one thing I wish we could all meet halfway on, it's this: yes, Halo 5 has some interesting movement ideas that bring meaningful depth into the game. No one should deny that at this point. But no, sprint isn't one of them. All of the interesting movement in Halo 5 is entirely possible to implement without any reference to sprint, if you can apply just a little bit of creativity and are open to change.
tsassi wrote:
H5's iteration of sprint increases engagement options, gives players something more to practice, and raises thre skill ceiling between new and practiced players.
No, that's all the other abilities besides sprint. There is not a single trick in the game that relies on the existence of sprint, not a single trick. That sliding we've been talking about? Doesn't need sprint to implement. All the jumps in the game? Sprint just gives the initial momentum. That could just as well come from a fast base movement speed.

If there was one thing I wish we could all meet halfway on, it's this: yes, Halo 5 has some interesting movement ideas that bring meaningful depth into the game. No one should deny that at this point. But no, sprint isn't one of them. All of the interesting movement in Halo 5 is entirely possible to implement without any reference to sprint, if you can apply just a little bit of creativity and are open to change.
Adding risk-reward decisions like "should I try and move between cover extra fast without being able to look around while en route? Or should I move between cover slower while maintaining the ability to grenade and keep my aim where I think the enemy may come from?" are only possible with sprint 😉.

Risk-reward decisions like that (and there are other examples we could probably come up with) reward high IQ players rather than just aim twitch too.

I posted this next opinion in this thread a looooong time ago, and no one seemed to care. I almost guarantee Infinite will have playlists both with and without sprint. They tested and received positive feedback on H5 rotational playlists that didn't have sprint. So this entire debate is pretty much for nothing 😁. I think Infinite is going to have a match making composer similar to MCC, and I think the option to include game types with sprint and without sprint will be there. Because that's what would make everyone happy.

And to me, 343 is looking like they're trying to take Infinite and make everyone happy.
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.
Stopped reading after your first line because you're already wrong right off the bat. And not just a little wrong. This line is like SUPER wrong. It's like you picked option e when there was only a, b, c, and d on the test. What are you even thinking at this point? That's how wrong this line is.

Go watch any high end player. There are literally tons of times every match where they use sprint and/ or slide to begin their challenges
So you respond to the side topic instead of the main topic. Strong IQ dude.
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.
Stopped reading after your first line because you're already wrong right off the bat. And not just a little wrong. This line is like SUPER wrong. It's like you picked option e when there was only a, b, c, and d on the test. What are you even thinking at this point? That's how wrong this line is.

Go watch any high end player. There are literally tons of times every match where they use sprint and/ or slide to begin their challenges
So you respond to the side topic instead of the main topic. Strong IQ dude.
Don't open your argument with a side topic then.
Strong prioritization dude.

Edit: Also, insulting me rather than addressing the point itself shows just how wrong you aaaaaarrrrrrrreeeeee 🍻😉
Until you've actually addressed the point, I'm just going to assume you don't have a response, which wouldn't surprise me frankly.
Until you've actually addressed the point, I'm just going to assume you don't have a response, which wouldn't surprise me frankly.
I addressed the map scaling argument and how I think it's a bad argument in a reply on the last page. Feel free to go find it if you want.
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.
Stopped reading after your first line because you're already wrong right off the bat. And not just a little wrong. This line is like SUPER wrong. It's like you picked option e when there was only a, b, c, and d on the test. What are you even thinking at this point? That's how wrong this line is.

Go watch any high end player. There are literally tons of times every match where they use sprint and/ or slide to begin their challenges
So you respond to the side topic instead of the main topic. Strong IQ dude.
Don't open your argument with a side topic then.
Strong prioritization dude.

Edit: Also, insulting me rather than addressing the point itself shows just how wrong you aaaaaarrrrrrrreeeeee 🍻😉
Just because you occasionally see pros engage enemies in a certain way doesn't mean that's the ideal way to engage enemies. Sliding any direction locks you into a certain trajectory, making you an easier target. Any good player, and especially ones at the pro level, will just beam you.

The only times sliding into an enemy may be ideal is if you get a call that they are low, or if they aren't aware or able to shoot at you. In these cases, sliding is not as heavily punished. However, if you're talking about straight up engagements, where both players of equal health are aware of approximately where the other is, no good player will tell you engaging with slide is a good idea.
Quote:
And as to the map scale, I've always just thought that's a dumb brainless argument. If they map size is scaled up, but so is every other aspect of the game, you're still getting a very similar experience between the two scales! The only major difference at that point is one of the situations has MORE techniques for a player to learn and master, which increases potential skill ceilings and adds more layers to combat.
The experience is not similar lol. In the original trilogy, combat movement speed and maximum movement speed were one in the same, so you were always moving at the speed in which the map was designed for.

Newer Halo titles scale up maps to account for sprint, but that means when you enter combat and are no longer sprinting, you are no longer moving at the speed in which the map was scaled for. This has all kinds of repercussions which have been discussed at length in this thread.

Also, you seem to really like to focus on the importance of the skill gap, but did you know enhanced mobility actually slows the game down (less kills per minute), therefore reducing the skill gap?
Adding risk-reward decisions like "should I try and move between cover extra fast without being able to look around while en route? Or should I move between cover slower while maintaining the ability to grenade and keep my aim where I think the enemy may come from?" are only possible with sprint 😉.
That's why I talked about "tricks". Deciding whether to sprint or not is not a trick, it's just a decision. It's a decision the likes of which there are countless others, including similar decisions with every other mechanic that has some downside in some context: "should I use it or not?" But if that's all there is to sprint's tactical depth, it's a one-trick pony.

It's also worth mentioning that 343i has worked hard to mitigate the impacts of that decision. One of the main defenses people use for sprint in Halo 5, that Shyway used in the video you linked, is that there is no penalty from shooting out of sprint anymore. Based on the Halo Infinite gameplay demo, it looks like there is even less of a difference between sprint speed and BMS, which would make the decision whether to sprint or not even less impactful. How far do we have to take this to admit that the inclusion of sprint has nothing to do with tactical depth?
The initial point was gameplay options was it not? how quickly that pivoted to skill gap, similar but a clear slight of hand. A fast base movement speed will allow for more gameplay options than a mechanic that forces you to move or shoot. Looking at Halo 5 in retrospect it shunned away the classic crowd then became too mechanical and elitist for the general audience, leaving some ugly step-child that 343 clearly isn't catering to with Infinite. Skill ceiling should not be the concern, the skill floor should be.

Quake is an excellent game but it is the very nature of how quake plays that could not garner an audience. I have always been against the nonsense mechanics that try to 'level the playing field' through bs randomness or a lack of control, ala bloom, spread, loadouts, ordnance etc. Having an intuitive game that is easy to play and hard to master is not one of those and is Halos bread and butter and something H5 wildly missed the mark on.

Naqser's post may be hyperbolic, but the requirement that in order to allow yourself to have options remotely equivalent to classic Halo or the opportunity at fluidity, is to be a capable enough player to land well into the upper quartile of the core playerbase is absurd. The cycled movement mechanics of H5 share more akin to advanced warfare, crysis, titanfall et al and all i see of their kind are dead games. Take away the cycled movement mechanics and most of the arguments hinging on H5 being the uber MM experience evaporate, i'm not talking about movement options or techniques here but specifically spending 60-80% of the game out of combat carefully cycling movement techniques like melee. Stabilisers, thrust and slide offer the brunt of that skill and aren't locked in with sprint, ground pound was a mistake and Halo could be far more creative about map possession and movement than clamber, which still does not require sprint.

Even when talking about H5s cycled movement, a fast BMS with quick strafe accel would still allow for momentum conservation with aforementioned abilities, with more rotation control, ability to look around and engage in combat, at the expense of being slightly less apm, the horror.
tsassi wrote:
Adding risk-reward decisions like "should I try and move between cover extra fast without being able to look around while en route? Or should I move between cover slower while maintaining the ability to grenade and keep my aim where I think the enemy may come from?" are only possible with sprint 😉.
That's why I talked about "tricks". Deciding whether to sprint or not is not a trick, it's just a decision. It's a decision the likes of which there are countless others, including similar decisions with every other mechanic that has some downside in some context: "should I use it or not?" But if that's all there is to sprint's tactical depth, it's a one-trick pony.

It's also worth mentioning that 343i has worked hard to mitigate the impacts of that decision. One of the main defenses people use for sprint in Halo 5, that Shyway used in the video you linked, is that there is no penalty from shooting out of sprint anymore. Based on the Halo Infinite gameplay demo, it looks like there is even less of a difference between sprint speed and BMS, which would make the decision whether to sprint or not even less impactful. How far do we have to take this to admit that the inclusion of sprint has nothing to do with tactical depth?
Your explanation of sprint being a "one trick pony" is just odd an convoluted 🤣. There is more to it than just the tactical decision of whether or not to use it... Because it's also part of movement button combo's. You not liking that inclusion in combos doesn't mean it's not there. You wanted an example of something that can only be in the game with sprints inclusion, so I gave you an example. That doesn't mean sprint adds only that decision as it's currently implemented...

And there is a draw time penalty out of sprint for every weapon except the magnum. Drawing the BR, Sniper, or Rocket while coming out of sprint takes a good couple moments (increasing for each of those weapons in the order I listed). Which again, is 343 balancing the mechanic to address community concerns.
A main argument against sprint was always dislike of the delay in the ability to shoot while sprinting. So 343 balanced the main loadout weapon to not have that penalty, while balancing power weapons to be penalized for sprinting while using them.

Tldr: Your first point is just weird and pretty wrong, and your second point is just actually flat out wrong 😃.
Darwi wrote:
Therefore, classic halo provides the player with the greatest amount of options, while newer halos limit player options.
But in new Halo I can also intially engage the enemy at different speeds (base or sprint) and can slide. I can then also continue the battle just like in classic - by jumping, moving, and/or shooting.
First of all, if you're engaging the enemy by sliding or sprinting into them, you're doing something wrong.
Stopped reading after your first line because you're already wrong right off the bat. And not just a little wrong. This line is like SUPER wrong. It's like you picked option e when there was only a, b, c, and d on the test. What are you even thinking at this point? That's how wrong this line is.

Go watch any high end player. There are literally tons of times every match where they use sprint and/ or slide to begin their challenges
So you respond to the side topic instead of the main topic. Strong IQ dude.
Don't open your argument with a side topic then.
Strong prioritization dude.

Edit: Also, insulting me rather than addressing the point itself shows just how wrong you aaaaaarrrrrrrreeeeee 🍻😉
Just because you occasionally see pros engage enemies in a certain way doesn't mean that's the ideal way to engage enemies. Sliding any direction locks you into a certain trajectory, making you an easier target. Any good player, and especially ones at the pro level, will just beam you.

The only times sliding into an enemy may be ideal is if you get a call that they are low, or if they aren't aware or able to shoot at you. In these cases, sliding is not as heavily punished. However, if you're talking about straight up engagements, where both players of equal health are aware of approximately where the other is, no good player will tell you engaging with slide is a good idea.
Quote:
And as to the map scale, I've always just thought that's a dumb brainless argument. If they map size is scaled up, but so is every other aspect of the game, you're still getting a very similar experience between the two scales! The only major difference at that point is one of the situations has MORE techniques for a player to learn and master, which increases potential skill ceilings and adds more layers to combat.
The experience is not similar lol. In the original trilogy, combat movement speed and maximum movement speed were one in the same, so you were always moving at the speed in which the map was designed for.

Newer Halo titles scale up maps to account for sprint, but that means when you enter combat and are no longer sprinting, you are no longer moving at the speed in which the map was scaled for. This has all kinds of repercussions which have been discussed at length in this thread.

Also, you seem to really like to focus on the importance of the skill gap, but did you know enhanced mobility actually slows the game down (less kills per minute), therefore reducing the skill gap?
Sprint Slide--
You: You shouldn't sprint/ slide right at someone, if this is how you engage people you're doing something wrong.

Me: That's actually a pretty valid and effective way to start a challenge against people. Even pro players use it often in every match they play.

You: That's not the ideal way to engage enemies (continue with lots of points supporting that.

Uuuhhh... duh...? I'm not arguing your should always be slide sprinting directly at people... it's a trick in the toolbox you should be using. The ideal way to engage enemies is and always has been from above (with rockets!) That's not what anyone's talking about.

Map Scale--
Fun fact for the day! Did you know 343 doesn't play test maps having players ONLY sprint or ONLY not sprint? They actually design maps where players both sprint and walk during the game. It's a pretty crazy concept I know 🤣.

And yes, the scaled up map experiences are similar in regards to firefights. Weapon ranges stretch out a little, and so do firing lanes. Pushing carbine on Truth has a very similar feel to pushing carbine on Midship for example.

And congrats, you're now the only person I've ever read on these forums imply that aspects of H5 and advance movement play slower than older titles 👏. Your defense seems to be going pretty well. /sarcasm
Your explanation of sprint being a "one trick pony" is just odd an convoluted 🤣. There is more to it than just the tactical decision of whether or not to use it... Because it's also part of movement button combo's.
Again, I said there is no trick in the game that relies on the existence of sprint. All those movement combos can be made to work without sprint, just with one less button press. If you find that pressing more buttons is more fun, so be it, but that's not relevant to my original point. Sprint is not a fundamental part of any movement combo. It's just there because you can't reach maximum speed in Halo 5 without it.

Your first point is just weird and pretty wrong, and your second point is just actually flat out wrong 😃.
You misunderstood my first point, and yes, my second point is technically wrong because I misspoke. Would appreciate if you didn't rub it in my face though. In any case, the point that 343i has consistently made sprint less impactful with every iteration, whether it is making it slower, or reducing weapon draw times and grenade delays, isn't. I fully expect Halo Infinite to continue that trend.
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