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This is just the tip of the iceberg

OP ran and shai

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Yeah but with every thread being locked on this subject besides this and the other one, I feel like its making seem like its not as big of an issue as it seems. I feel like a broken record here, its the bad reveal now this. Real employees engaging with the community and telling us how its gonna be would be better then the properly written letter of response that might as well say -Yoink- You and a slap in the face.
Yesterday, 343i confirmed the community's fears that color customization will be replaced by a shader system that mimics Destiny 2. That confirmation comes after they let us fester in a sea of ambiguity not just regarding armor customization but regarding every single feature in the game. The removal of color customization is just the tip of the iceberg that is Halo Infinite.

The game was in development for five years, which is two years longer than most Halo games. These five years were completely, worryingly silent. Big statements were made after the game was revealed. "It's a soft reboot", they said. "It has a brand new, next gen engine" they said. Remarks were made that implied but did not confirm that this game is open world (a matter which they have not cleared up to this day). And then, silence.

Where are the days that 343i promised fans will help shape future titles? Where are the days 343i promised that every game of theirs will have a Beta test?

The gameplay demo is revealed in the Xbox Showcase and, big surprise, people don't like it. It's not just that the graphics felt several years old when we were expecting to see the next generation, it's that there was nothing truly spectacular about that demo. It kind of looked like Halo, a weirder, graphically unimpressive Halo, but nothing about the demo got the fans excited. Does that mean the game is a complete failure? Hell no. It still looked okay.

343i, you chose to show us a boring section of the game, and that was a mistake. Showing us gameplay was *not* a mistake. You should have shown us gameplay a long time ago. We should have had a Beta by now, and you know this. Instead we had bottled-up silence.

So people don't like the demo, and 343i retreat back into their silent state. Do you know what this looks like? It looks like even you don't believe in your game anymore. It looks like you think that whatever it is you have been doing for five years is an embarrassment not just to yourself and your fans but to the entire Xbox brand. Show some initiative, for God's sake! Show us the game you created. Yes, we'll judge it. Yes, if it's full of more bad decisions like these shaders, we will complain - because that's how it's got to be. A dialogue.

The less you show, the more concerned the fans get. The less you show, the more embarrassing the reveal will be in the end (let's not wait for a promotion to reveal your hand again, shall we?). You knew the fans wouldn't like that you removed the customizable colors, you even said as much in yesterday's update. So why did you keep it to yourself for so long? Why not release a video that explains exactly how customization works in Halo Infinite, the good and the bad? Now all we have is the bad, we don't know any of the good features you added to customization.

Stop waiting for the last possible moment. Stop making choices that you know most of the fandom won't appreciate. And, for the love of all things Halo, start communicating.

For your convenience, I'll add a list of the community's most pressing concerns. If anyone wants to add something to the list, leave a reply here.

1. What are we actually paying for? 60 dollars just for the campaign?
2. Is the Campaign open world or not? No ambiguous answers.
3. Elaborate on the meaning of Free to Play Halo multiplayer. Are we getting a similar offering to what we've seen before, or will it be completely different?
4. Microtransactions. We want to know exactly how you plan to monetize this Free to Play multiplayer.
5. What do you mean when you say Infinite is a platform that will last ten years? Please, answer without useless adjectives and just explain what it means.
6. Release a video that shows how customization works in Halo Infinite. Prove to us that, despite stripping away the most basic feature, we should still be excited about Infinite's armor customization.
7. Set a date for the Beta and flighting programs. Forget the release date.

Added per request:
8. Why is Halo now rated T? Is it no longer targeted at a mature audience?

Lastly, 343i, it's important that you'll understand we ALL want you to succeed. We all want to love Infinite. But we're not fools. We know there has been trouble in the game's development, that's painfully clear. Help us help you make this the game it needs to be. All we need from you is clarity and good will.

With love,
The Halo Community
I mean, given the state of the fanbase, especially with the extremely vocal minority in these forums, I can understand their silence. Every post, every screenshot, every video, every statement is met with incredible backlash. For every 1 or 2 comments or threads of constructive criticism, there’s at least 20 more of unabated bashing of 343 with just mindless parrotings of hate for the studio.

343 wanted the delay but Microsoft was pushing for them to release early, I’m glad they got the delay that they wanted. Honestly, a Beta would do little to no good, not because they are close to release, but because of how the same fans clamoring for a Beta would treat it. Beta’s are treated like “free access gameplay” and once it’s over they move on, or if they don’t like “one little thing” they’ll run straight to these forums and just spew hate post after hate post of how they ruined the franchise again.

Hell, after the demo, I was surprised by how many people suddenly became game developers after watching an 8 minute video after bashing the studio about light renders, pop in effects and resolution qualities. They’ve been tight lipped because anything they say gets torn apart and leads to weeks of hate threads popping up that have to be locked and redirected to relevant threads. It’s not that they don’t believe in their product, they got the reprieve they’ve wanted, and have a chance to work on it earnestly and in peace to make it the product they wanted it to be.

we all want Halo to succeed, but first we have to remove the knife from their throat, turn off the nuke countdown, and call off the attack dogs and snipers. If we want clarity and discussion, we can’t just attack them like it’s a feeding frenzy and they’re dumping chum in the water.

sorry for the wall of text
1. I’m also curious about how they splitting this up. I can see it as a way of the online multiplayer being free, but possibly locked to the core multiplayer modes, maybe excluding or including BTB, but excluding things like invasion/firefight/warzone. I wonder if forge is going to be included in the free version as well or if custom games and forge as well are shipped with campaign under the 60$ canopy.

4. If they hold to what they did with Halo 5, I’m expecting skins and easy access to coatings to be in the micro transactions. I just hope they keep the Ability to earn points in game to use instead of RL money for the transactions like they have in Halo 5.

5. I’m curious about the platform take as well. Im assuming dlc similar to the destiny archetype where it’s basically another campaign sized download and story added to the over world...just hoping it doesn’t reach MW 2019 levels of space...that ish is ridiculous.

aside from the questions my you asked, I’m curious about how the coatings and rumored lack of Red vs blue is going to affect the multiplayer aspect.
I respectfully disagree. As someone who has been a fan of the series for upwards of fifteen years, I began 343i's era defending them for every bad decision they made. At the end of the day, however, they kept making bad decisions and I understood that there's no reason to defend them anymore. Now I'll address your points one at a time.

"I largely think that reacting so vehemently to what was essentially just more information on the color of armor of all things is such an overreaction on the part of the community."

As the title of this post suggests, the armor coatings are just the tip of the iceberg. If there was positive news about Infinite before Colorgate, I guarantee that people would not have been as angry about it. The problem is that every morsel of news 343i release to the fans (most of the time either accidentally or because of some brand marketing campaign) is negative news. For the community, it's a matter of principle. 343i have released three games that were quickly abandonned by their respective communities for various reasons and Infinite was considered by many as their last chance. So far, it's safe to say it's not going well.

"I mean, maybe it's just something to say about the assumption that we "deserve" to know what they're working on at all times. I personally hate this kind of sentiment already, because it isn't even derived from anything. The devs really don't have to do anything. You haven't paid any money yet, so I don't understand why people are acting like they have."

Correct, 343i don't owe us anything but we don't owe them anything either. If they have forums, we have every right to complain on these forums per the forum rules. More importantly though, I don't intend to pay 343i for this game until they stop with the mixed messages and ambiguous remarks. The point of this thread, unlike others that focus on armor coatings, is actually to help 343i bridge the divide they have created between themselves and the fandom.

I listed a few things which people seem to agree on, matters which are completely basic and should be known by now (many of which could be clarified without any new gameplay footage). Regarding the Beta, sure, they don't owe us a Beta despite promising to do one, but this thread is merely a suggestion. If they want the fandom to love their game, we'll have to see it (warts and all) and give feedback. We're definitely not going to appreciate those warts if we find out about them too late for 343i to do anything.

"You want to know why they don't update you about Infinite more often? I would bet money that the biggest reason is that it's because the community takes every little bit of information they get and extrapolates it to wild degrees."

I agree, but I also think it's a really flawed outlook. Eventually, they will have to reveal these things, and hiding them under an air of ambiguity clearly only serves to frustrate the community. A frustrated community will react very badly to bad news (which they should have known would reach us given their marketing plans, but that's another matter). 343i need to stop doing damage control and enter offensive maneuvers. They should start showing us why Infinite is such a good game, rather than keeping silent until something like Infinite being Free to Play or Colorgate gets leaked. They need to control the story, because right now their marketing has only driven people away.

"It's a catch 22, and you're asking 343 to put out fires that you started, when that's just not their job. Their job is to make the game. I don't know about y'all, but I would much prefer that 343 spend time building and perfecting the game, not matter how long that takes, than spend time dealing with overblown drama that was started by the "fans"."

Congratulations, your post would have felt incomplete without a derogatory remark on the fandom, or "fans" as you call them. The fires you believe we started were started by 343i, who have proven time and time again that they prefer to go for easy money by copying popular trends rather than building off of the core Halo formula. It began with Halo 4's multiplayer, then Halo 5's campaign and the multiplayer's lack of launch content, then MCC which was a broken mess at launch. Before 343i, the Halo community was divided and toxic at times, but we all loved Halo and believed in its future. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm losing my faith in the franchise now. For the first time in Halo history (barring Wars), I'm quite certain I'm not going to buy the next game in the series.

I want 343i to prove me wrong. I want to believe in them and their franchise again because I've been here for over 15 years and would love to stay, but at this stage they don't deserve blind faith. At the very least, they should make sure their marketing connects with the fans, which so far hasn't happened.
"The problem is that every morsel of news 343i release to the fans (most of the time either accidentally or because of some brand marketing campaign) is negative news." A new coloring system is subjective news. It's negative because people made it that way. If there weren't so many people adamantly against everything 343i does, then this would simply not have been news at all. It's like saying Infinity Ward should have gotten hate for overhauling the gun attachment system, which is something that actually affects gameplay. People just hear that 343i has posted a change they're making, and try to actively figure out how to spin it negatively. I could do the same thing but spin it positive. "343i teases new colorization system that allows for more colorization than any halo game before", "343i shows off a new customization system for Spartan armor, allowing for more detailed and intricate armor colors than has been seen before", "343i is implementing a new cosmetic customization system in infinite akin to that has been brought into the MCC recently, allowing for new ways to customize not only armor, but weapons and vehicles as well."See how easy that was for me to do? But trying to look at things in a positive light doesn't get quite as many clicks, does it?

"343i have released three games that were quickly abandonned by their respective communities for various reasons and Infinite was considered by many as their last chance." I mean, this just isn't true. MCC has a good population at all times and I am never waiting to get put into a H5 match. I just checked, H5 customs browser brings back 99 results of lobbies with people playing right now. You're trying to paint it like no one likes 343i or their games, but that simply isn't the case.
(1)
I respectfully disagree. As someone who has been a fan of the series for upwards of fifteen years, I began 343i's era defending them for every bad decision they made. At the end of the day, however, they kept making bad decisions and I understood that there's no reason to defend them anymore. Now I'll address your points one at a time.

"I largely think that reacting so vehemently to what was essentially just more information on the color of armor of all things is such an overreaction on the part of the community."

As the title of this post suggests, the armor coatings are just the tip of the iceberg. If there was positive news about Infinite before Colorgate, I guarantee that people would not have been as angry about it. The problem is that every morsel of news 343i release to the fans (most of the time either accidentally or because of some brand marketing campaign) is negative news. For the community, it's a matter of principle. 343i have released three games that were quickly abandonned by their respective communities for various reasons and Infinite was considered by many as their last chance. So far, it's safe to say it's not going well.

"I mean, maybe it's just something to say about the assumption that we "deserve" to know what they're working on at all times. I personally hate this kind of sentiment already, because it isn't even derived from anything. The devs really don't have to do anything. You haven't paid any money yet, so I don't understand why people are acting like they have."

Correct, 343i don't owe us anything but we don't owe them anything either. If they have forums, we have every right to complain on these forums per the forum rules. More importantly though, I don't intend to pay 343i for this game until they stop with the mixed messages and ambiguous remarks. The point of this thread, unlike others that focus on armor coatings, is actually to help 343i bridge the divide they have created between themselves and the fandom.

I listed a few things which people seem to agree on, matters which are completely basic and should be known by now (many of which could be clarified without any new gameplay footage). Regarding the Beta, sure, they don't owe us a Beta despite promising to do one, but this thread is merely a suggestion. If they want the fandom to love their game, we'll have to see it (warts and all) and give feedback. We're definitely not going to appreciate those warts if we find out about them too late for 343i to do anything.

"You want to know why they don't update you about Infinite more often? I would bet money that the biggest reason is that it's because the community takes every little bit of information they get and extrapolates it to wild degrees."

I agree, but I also think it's a really flawed outlook. Eventually, they will have to reveal these things, and hiding them under an air of ambiguity clearly only serves to frustrate the community. A frustrated community will react very badly to bad news (which they should have known would reach us given their marketing plans, but that's another matter). 343i need to stop doing damage control and enter offensive maneuvers. They should start showing us why Infinite is such a good game, rather than keeping silent until something like Infinite being Free to Play or Colorgate gets leaked. They need to control the story, because right now their marketing has only driven people away.

"It's a catch 22, and you're asking 343 to put out fires that you started, when that's just not their job. Their job is to make the game. I don't know about y'all, but I would much prefer that 343 spend time building and perfecting the game, not matter how long that takes, than spend time dealing with overblown drama that was started by the "fans"."

Congratulations, your post would have felt incomplete without a derogatory remark on the fandom, or "fans" as you call them. The fires you believe we started were started by 343i, who have proven time and time again that they prefer to go for easy money by copying popular trends rather than building off of the core Halo formula. It began with Halo 4's multiplayer, then Halo 5's campaign and the multiplayer's lack of launch content, then MCC which was a broken mess at launch. Before 343i, the Halo community was divided and toxic at times, but we all loved Halo and believed in its future. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm losing my faith in the franchise now. For the first time in Halo history (barring Wars), I'm quite certain I'm not going to buy the next game in the series.

I want 343i to prove me wrong. I want to believe in them and their franchise again because I've been here for over 15 years and would love to stay, but at this stage they don't deserve blind faith. At the very least, they should make sure their marketing connects with the fans, which so far hasn't happened.
"If they have forums, we have every right to complain on these forums per the forum rules." Fair enough. Feedback is obviously important to make anything with a fanbase. It's my personal opinion that backseating video game devs (not just 343i) gets out of hand sometimes, but that of course is only an opinion.
"343i need to stop doing damage control and enter offensive maneuvers." I mean they can't really control how everyone reacts to their updates, can they? I mean you say they should take the offensive and show why Infinite is a good game... is that not what this was an attempt to do? Try and get people hyped for new features? You know they could show any "new" feature and only that and people would argue they're destroying the franchise. Doesn't matter if that feature might actually turn out to be really cool or not. What it sounds to me that you really want to see is just a feature that's been implemented in every game before. It sounds like you just want them to say "Hey, we didn't change this one thing". That's what I hear from this community 99% of the time.

"Congratulations, your post would have felt incomplete without a derogatory remark on the fandom, or "fans" as you call them. " I mean, are there not overzealous fans worthy of criticism themselves?
"The fires you believe we started were started by 343i, who have proven time and time again that they prefer to go for easy money by copying popular trends rather than building off of the core Halo formula." 343i started the fires by implementing a new feature? This kind of stuff is why I think that most people won't be happy with the game no matter what it turns out to be. This wasn't a fire, it was non-news about a customization system change that will very likely end up not being that big of a deal by release. At least, that's what I had determined when I first read the update.

(2)
I respectfully disagree. As someone who has been a fan of the series for upwards of fifteen years, I began 343i's era defending them for every bad decision they made. At the end of the day, however, they kept making bad decisions and I understood that there's no reason to defend them anymore. Now I'll address your points one at a time.

"I largely think that reacting so vehemently to what was essentially just more information on the color of armor of all things is such an overreaction on the part of the community."

As the title of this post suggests, the armor coatings are just the tip of the iceberg. If there was positive news about Infinite before Colorgate, I guarantee that people would not have been as angry about it. The problem is that every morsel of news 343i release to the fans (most of the time either accidentally or because of some brand marketing campaign) is negative news. For the community, it's a matter of principle. 343i have released three games that were quickly abandonned by their respective communities for various reasons and Infinite was considered by many as their last chance. So far, it's safe to say it's not going well.

"I mean, maybe it's just something to say about the assumption that we "deserve" to know what they're working on at all times. I personally hate this kind of sentiment already, because it isn't even derived from anything. The devs really don't have to do anything. You haven't paid any money yet, so I don't understand why people are acting like they have."

Correct, 343i don't owe us anything but we don't owe them anything either. If they have forums, we have every right to complain on these forums per the forum rules. More importantly though, I don't intend to pay 343i for this game until they stop with the mixed messages and ambiguous remarks. The point of this thread, unlike others that focus on armor coatings, is actually to help 343i bridge the divide they have created between themselves and the fandom.

I listed a few things which people seem to agree on, matters which are completely basic and should be known by now (many of which could be clarified without any new gameplay footage). Regarding the Beta, sure, they don't owe us a Beta despite promising to do one, but this thread is merely a suggestion. If they want the fandom to love their game, we'll have to see it (warts and all) and give feedback. We're definitely not going to appreciate those warts if we find out about them too late for 343i to do anything.

"You want to know why they don't update you about Infinite more often? I would bet money that the biggest reason is that it's because the community takes every little bit of information they get and extrapolates it to wild degrees."

I agree, but I also think it's a really flawed outlook. Eventually, they will have to reveal these things, and hiding them under an air of ambiguity clearly only serves to frustrate the community. A frustrated community will react very badly to bad news (which they should have known would reach us given their marketing plans, but that's another matter). 343i need to stop doing damage control and enter offensive maneuvers. They should start showing us why Infinite is such a good game, rather than keeping silent until something like Infinite being Free to Play or Colorgate gets leaked. They need to control the story, because right now their marketing has only driven people away.

"It's a catch 22, and you're asking 343 to put out fires that you started, when that's just not their job. Their job is to make the game. I don't know about y'all, but I would much prefer that 343 spend time building and perfecting the game, not matter how long that takes, than spend time dealing with overblown drama that was started by the "fans"."

Congratulations, your post would have felt incomplete without a derogatory remark on the fandom, or "fans" as you call them. The fires you believe we started were started by 343i, who have proven time and time again that they prefer to go for easy money by copying popular trends rather than building off of the core Halo formula. It began with Halo 4's multiplayer, then Halo 5's campaign and the multiplayer's lack of launch content, then MCC which was a broken mess at launch. Before 343i, the Halo community was divided and toxic at times, but we all loved Halo and believed in its future. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm losing my faith in the franchise now. For the first time in Halo history (barring Wars), I'm quite certain I'm not going to buy the next game in the series.

I want 343i to prove me wrong. I want to believe in them and their franchise again because I've been here for over 15 years and would love to stay, but at this stage they don't deserve blind faith. At the very least, they should make sure their marketing connects with the fans, which so far hasn't happened.
"It began with Halo 4's multiplayer, then Halo 5's campaign and the multiplayer's lack of launch content, then MCC which was a broken mess at launch." Again you're literally just focusing on the negative aspects here and not taking into account anything positive at all. What about Halo 4's writing and visuals? What about Spartan Ops, which added more campaign missions and lore with people's custom Spartans? "Halo 5's lack of launch content" Huh? You mean BTB? Ok, what about Warzone? I think that's kind of a reach since there was still an 8v8 mode available at launch. Besides, they added more MP content than any game had ever had before. What about Forge and Custom game options that allowed for more customization and creativity than every before? What about the biggest selection of cosmetics customization than ever before? What about H2A in the MCC, which was an amazing remaster, from the cutscenes to the improved graphics? What about the launch of the MCC on PC? The addition of Reach? Halo Wars 2?
Well, yeah, I guess when you ignore all of that stuff, 343i is kind of a terrible developer and everything they add to the franchise is awful.

"I want 343i to prove me wrong." I kind of believe this, but considering everything you've told me about how you view anything that comes from them, I wouldn't be surprised to find you disappointed in a year's time. If you are only holding the negative aspects of 343i's history in mind and assuming anything that doesn't look familiar will be terrible, then I'm not sure there's any way you'll ever look at anything they do in very high regard. I guess you're free to do that if you want, but I think it's kind of silly to do this to yourself. From the language in your reply, it seems to me that you're assuming there's only one way of looking at things. Which I guess is kind of why I can't change your mind or anything, I just hope this kind of points out some flaws in your outlook. You can try and convince me to hate everything new 343i does, but meanwhile I'll go play some matchmade ODST firefight matchmaking games on PC since 343i made it a feature.
(end)
Preach!
Contrary to what you think, I don't mindlessly hate everything 343i has created. I legitimately loved Halo 4's story (even if the MP disappointed) and was excited to see what they'll do in the followup after receiving feedback. I kind of liked Halo 5's multiplayer as well, but that game launched without basic modes (Oddball, Forge, BTB, etc) and the maps all felt and looked the same, barring Warzone. Eventually, about a year later, it payed off with a series of updates and I genuinely believe that the game would have sustained a large population if it launched that way. It was really good by the end, especially because of Forge.

That being said, I'm not wearing rose-tinted goggles here. There are many problems with 343i's take on Halo. I'm not just talking about the transition from all-in-60$ to predatory REQ packs and microtransactions. Mainly what disappoints me about 343i is their communication with the community (or the lack thereof) as well as their failed promises which feel, in hindsight, like lies.

Is the community partly to blame for 343i's silence? Probably, but 343i need to learn to accept it the way it is. The silence and ambiguity surrounding Infinite is frustrating to much more than just the toxic circles in the fandom, and it's also very worrying. There were rumors the game has been in development hell, and a disappointing demo followed by silence after five years of development really seem to confirm that.

Another thing: I believe you generalize this fandom. There are vocal minorities who are toxic and will hate any new thing introduced to the game, there is a slightly bigger minoritiy of people who are still disappointed about Sprint and Clamber and the like, and then there is the rest of the Halo fandom. Some of them like sprint and some of them don't. Some of them like Spartan Abilities and some of them don't. Some of them like Warzone and some of them don't. A lot of them still believe in 343i, and a lot of them don't.

This is the group in the community that 343i should focus on, because the minorities mentioned will never be satisfied with 343i's vision for the game. It's also the biggest group, by far. Is it sensible to react to the toxicity of the vocal minority by completely cutting off the entire community? In my opinion, no.

Once again: we don't need to see hours of new gameplay footage. What we need, if 343i wants to get us behind them again, is clarity on the most basic things. 343i dropped a news bomb with the MP being Free to Play (only after it got leaked on an online store, mind you) and haven't since addressed what this actually means. That didn't stop them from opening preorders for a 60$ package, the contents of which are unclear. People who are paying now literally don't know what they're paying for.

Besides that, we received mixed messages regarding the format of the campaign (and the story, but that's fine I guess if they're trying to avoid spoilers). It feels like they chose every word carefully to ensure we're left out of the loop. If the July demo was amazing, I guess that'd be enough, but sadly the consensus is that it was just okay (or worse).

I think 343i should ignore the loud minority and focus on the confused, frustrated majority that they can still win back. For me, the coatings aren't really that much of a big deal, I mainly dislike how 343i went about revealing this. It can be done differently and better, I believe that 100%. So why shouldn't it?
I've just come to accept that Halo Infinite is not being developed with Halo fans in mind. They're aiming for bringing in new players and hoping the old fans buy in anyway despite the distaste. I hope they're fully aware that if this keeps up the game isn't going to make it past a year of relevancy.

Unless 343 somehow pulls through and delivers a good Halo experience I can't see myself spending a single cent on this game. I can't see them making magic happen though, everything I've seen has only brought hopes down. It feels like 343 is back stabbing the fans that have supported the franchise.
Again you're literally just focusing on the negative aspects here and not taking into account anything positive at all.
Are you familiar with stockholm syndrome?

What about Halo 4's writing and visuals?
The writing was okay at best (Remember how Cortana suddenly knew the Didact's name even though it was never mentioned?) and the visuals were technically impressive on a 360 but painful to look at (oversaturation, lensflare, too busy designs, etc.).

What about Spartan Ops, which added more campaign missions and lore with people's custom Spartans?
Spartan Ops was a good idea on paper but poorly executed. The story was basically nonexistent during the missions themselves and almost exclusively told through the cutscenes. (So why bother playing it in the first place?) Repetitive gameplay (Go here, activate that, fight some five more waves) on maps recycled ad nauseam from campaign. It got somewhat better in the second half but never became what was promised.

"Halo 5's lack of launch content" Huh? You mean BTB?
...and Oddball, and Infection, and King of the Hill, and any kind of PvE like Firefight/Spartan Ops, etc., etc.

Ok, what about Warzone? I think that's kind of a reach since there was still an 8v8 mode available at launch.
A P2W cash-grab is not an adequate replacement. It's not even the same gamemode, just because it has the same amount of players.
That's like telling people who are missing Team Objective to just go play 4v4 Team Deathmatch.

Besides, they added more MP content than any game had ever had before.
Did it? Not in terms of maps. It has the same amount as Reach (20) and that is only if you include the remix maps. (Which, personally, I wouldn't.) It also has less Warzone maps than Reach had for Firefight.
In terms of weapons, maybe, if you count swapping the scope from one weapon to another. I don't.

What about Forge and Custom game options that allowed for more customization and creativity than every before?
Forge had a huge upgrade with a lot more features, you are correct on that. So yes, there is a positive.
At the same time though, the controls became horrendously cumbersume compared to the simplicity of before and the forge pieces themselves got atrociously ugly to look at. I wouldn't play Forge maps in H5G even if I liked the game, for fear of catching eye cancer.

What about the biggest selection of cosmetics customization than ever before?
...which cannot be unlocked by merit or choice but only in a random microtransaction system, while at the same time reducing the flexibility of customization by removing feet-, shoulder-, and arm-customization and leaving only helm, chest and visor. Also, emblem customization was gone, which could be seen as foreshadowing for Infinite.

What about H2A in the MCC, which was an amazing remaster, from the cutscenes to the improved graphics?
Not done by 343.
Also, far from perfect. The music had a significant downgrade, visuals and audio couldn't be picked individually like in CEA, didn't run in 1080p as promised, etc.

What about the launch of the MCC on PC?
Has some positive aspects but also a lot of negatives. Finally there are some setting options that are long overdue and also were or will be released on console.
At the same time, the games were drip-fed to the community piecemeal, which meant that the multiplayer community never got a chance to develop. The title is already bleeding players and it hasn't even released all games yet. Forge mode came too late to save it. And the games released almost as broken as they did on the XBone. To this day, several achievements are still completely unobtainable in the PC version, just visit the Steam forums for some details. And funnily enough, the updates they released alongside the PC version for the XBone added new bugs and glitches yet again.

The addition of Reach?
Overall, I don't have anything bad to say about that in general (other than the things that I have already mentioned before, such as new bugs and glitches when it was added).
This was indeed a mostly positive thing.

Halo Wars 2?
Not done by 343.

Well, yeah, I guess when you ignore all of that stuff, 343i is kind of a terrible developer and everything they add to the franchise is awful.
Not everything, but most of it.
It has also nothing to do with "ignoring" stuff, but the fact that hardly anything positive they do doesn't come with a "...but" attached to it.
I like all the points but I'll say something about two of them:

Regarding the 10 year plan: I don't think any developer has actually had any idea what they want those plans to be. For destiny I believe originally, it was 3 games for 10 years in total with each getting a major expansion in between releases (called "comet expansions". While I'm sure Destiny 3 will happen any year now, I know bungie has changed so much of destiny that D1 and D2 are very different games, and the story between them has been pretty inconsistent. I don't know what Bioware planned with Anthem buy honestly that game is already dead and I don't see it even going for 4 years 🤷 they're currently trying to redo the game into "Anthem 2.0" because of how bad it's launch was and at this point iI believe most people have moved on from that franchise.

I can't say I know what 343 will do with infinite, but realistically I don't see them doing one game for ten whole years, my assumption will be something like Destiny where a new halo will be out every 2-3 years as a guess. It would help if 343 elaborate but i really don't think developers themselves even know what they want with a 10 year plan.

My next point is at the T rating cause people blow it out of proportion so much, halo wasn't that Gorey to begin with and neither was the language that hardcore, it was actually much more comedic than anything. While it had blood before, it was flourecent at that, I always saw it more colorful than anything to be honest 👍. I also think people fail to realize the games have been selling less and less ever since HReach, and if they went to a T rating for improving sales then that would've been transparent to see when they first did it but it hasn't been. I just believe 343 simply doesn't want to make a game with the blood or language and that's why they haven't included them, I don't believe it was ever for trying to reach out to a bigger audience. What they have however done to reach out to a bigger audience is "modernize" the franchise as I call it, changing the gameplay so much that it has the same features like any other shooter out there with nothing unique to it anymore and that's where I believe they've lost consumers over the years.

I will say I'm not surprised on them going to some shader system, it's again another move of doing what other games do, and it's why they've lost me at this point as a halo fan, it just isn't even halo anymore lol. It's a shame cause halo was one of the exceptions for a fps I'd play, now it's just overwatch and uh, yea, there's no other shooters I find enticing outside DOOM for it's campaign and arcade arena play and then the 3pp games like gears or mass effect. It's sad to say but halo just isn't something I'll get into anymore unless they do anything more with halowars or some sort of Spinoff that could be interesting. The mainline games? Yea not anymore, the MCC is about all I'll touch at this point.
This thread is great. I just want to point out we weren't promised a next-generation game. And people who had huge expectations of one were just hyping themselves up for disappointment. We always knew this game would be designed to be compatible with the Xbox One. Which means the only real advantages you'll see on the Series X are framerates and resolution, as both versions need to be compatible while playing with eachother in coop and multiplayer.

That's just a fact players shouldn't have ignored. And I blame the players for that problem, not 343i.

However yeah, 343i has had such exceptionally poor communication lately. Historically it's been shown that the more developers communicate with their community, the better they understand what said community wants.

We are just weeks away from the originally intended release date and we haven't even seen a multiplayer teaser, it's insane. Give us a ViDoc or something!
While I'm sure Destiny 3 will happen any year now.
Actually Bungie already talked about that. They have the next 3 years of Destiny 2 expansions planned out now (Beyond Light this November, Taken Queen in 2021, and Lightfall in 2022) with no plans of ever making Destiny 3. Its their way of addressing how much the community hated starting from scratch when D2 came out.

They legit give us details about upcoming content 3 years in advance now because they've learned that communicating with the community is better than trying to surprise us.
Fos Kuvol wrote:
I just want to point out we weren't promised a next-generation game. And people who had huge expectations of one were just hyping themselves up for disappointment.
The problem here lies with Microsoft and their console marketing. They were the ones who put Halo Infinite up on the pedestal for the next generation of games. They were the ones who locked 343 down and kept everything secret for the big reveal.

Quote:
We always knew this game would be designed to be compatible with the Xbox One. Which means the only real advantages you'll see on the Series X are framerates and resolution, as both versions need to be compatible while playing with eachother in coop and multiplayer. That's just a fact players shouldn't have ignored. And I blame the players for that problem, not 343i.
And that it is (semi) open world, 4K, and 60fps. There was never going to be the control over the action / set pieces that you need to play with the fancy graphics (like ray traced reflections). That's more for the corridor shooters.

Quote:
However yeah, 343i has had such exceptionally poor communication lately. Historically it's been shown that the more developers communicate with their community, the better they understand what said community wants. We are just weeks away from the originally intended release date and we haven't even seen a multiplayer teaser, it's insane. Give us a ViDoc or something!
This is the bit they need to control. Take the narrative back.
Fos Kuvol wrote:
While I'm sure Destiny 3 will happen any year now.
Actually Bungie already talked about that. They have the next 3 years of Destiny 2 expansions planned out now (Beyond Light this November, Taken Queen in 2021, and Lightfall in 2022) with no plans of ever making Destiny 3. Its their way of addressing how much the community hated starting from scratch when D2 came out.

They legit give us details about upcoming content 3 years in advance now because they've learned that communicating with the community is better than trying to surprise us.
Well that's good to hear actually, I've been out of the loop on destiny ever since I stopped playing it. Sounds like they're actually getting a hold of how they do want to do their 10 year plan. 343 is gonna need to be more vocal on how they will go about it if they want the community to be more open to whatever they do.
I've just come to accept that Halo Infinite is not being developed with Halo fans in mind. They're aiming for bringing in new players and hoping the old fans buy in anyway despite the distaste. I hope they're fully aware that if this keeps up the game isn't going to make it past a year of relevancy.

Unless 343 somehow pulls through and delivers a good Halo experience I can't see myself spending a single cent on this game. I can't see them making magic happen though, everything I've seen has only brought hopes down. It feels like 343 is back stabbing the fans that have supported the franchise.
You are right but what is ridiculous is that they’ve been trying that literally with every entry since halo 4. Both 4 and 5 were designed to bring in casuals and new players by changing core mechanics and introducing trendy gimmicks from other games.

the thing is tho neither 4 or 5 were all that successful. Both clearly fell well short of Xbox’s expectations and failed to retain the players that did buy the games let alone attract new ones. You’d think Xbox would learn...
SENCHIEF10 wrote:
I've just come to accept that Halo Infinite is not being developed with Halo fans in mind. They're aiming for bringing in new players and hoping the old fans buy in anyway despite the distaste. I hope they're fully aware that if this keeps up the game isn't going to make it past a year of relevancy.

Unless 343 somehow pulls through and delivers a good Halo experience I can't see myself spending a single cent on this game. I can't see them making magic happen though, everything I've seen has only brought hopes down. It feels like 343 is back stabbing the fans that have supported the franchise.
You are right but what is ridiculous is that they’ve been trying that literally with every entry since halo 4. Both 4 and 5 were designed to bring in casuals and new players by changing core mechanics and introducing trendy gimmicks from other games.

the thing is tho neither 4 or 5 were all that successful. Both clearly fell well short of Xbox’s expectations and failed to retain the players that did buy the games let alone attract new ones. You’d think Xbox would learn...
They pretty much explicitly said they are developing their games without concern for (classic) Halo fans. 343 is on record stating they hired people who did not like the original games. They've also said that the MCC is being maintained and developed as the place for classic Halo. if you read between the lines, they've basically said they view the MCC as the population dumpster for original fans, and new games are explicitly not being made for them.

They've succeeded in taking Halo from being a flagship system selling title and leader in FPS game design to something resembling a typical EA or Ubisoft annual game - good enough to appease enough people that it doesn't generate internet riots and can get 8/10 scores from places like IGN, jammed with enough microtransactions to prey upon the exploitable, those with FOMO, and the "whales", and completely "safe" and unremarkable in all other aspects of its game design.

They won't "learn" until they have a commercial failure which causes major personnel shake-ups in the top levels of management at 343, because it is the decisions made at those top levels which have led Halo in these directions. So long as Halo does OK commercially - and we have no reason to expect that Infinite won't - you should get used to playing the MCC if you like classic Halo game design.

At least they gave us a rank system in MCC which will take like 20-30 years for most people to complete...

I'm not in a gamer rage or anything. It's just a bit exhausting at this point nearly a decade into the 343 era. I just don't know what's going on in that studio.
I’m neutral in the whole Bungie vs 343 debate, but I think this perfectly sums up my current feelings of the series. I want Infinite to succeed so badly that it hurts, but after each “reveal” it seems to be going the opposite of what I hoped for. I’ll still give it a chance, and I hope that this new era of Halo blows me out of the water, but I’m not holding my breath for it anymore
Celestis wrote:
Again you're literally just focusing on the negative aspects here and not taking into account anything positive at all.
Are you familiar with stockholm syndrome?

What about Halo 4's writing and visuals?
The writing was okay at best (Remember how Cortana suddenly knew the Didact's name even though it was never mentioned?) and the visuals were technically impressive on a 360 but painful to look at (oversaturation, lensflare, too busy designs, etc.).

What about Spartan Ops, which added more campaign missions and lore with people's custom Spartans?
Spartan Ops was a good idea on paper but poorly executed. The story was basically nonexistent during the missions themselves and almost exclusively told through the cutscenes. (So why bother playing it in the first place?) Repetitive gameplay (Go here, activate that, fight some five more waves) on maps recycled ad nauseam from campaign. It got somewhat better in the second half but never became what was promised.

"Halo 5's lack of launch content" Huh? You mean BTB?
...and Oddball, and Infection, and King of the Hill, and any kind of PvE like Firefight/Spartan Ops, etc., etc.

Ok, what about Warzone? I think that's kind of a reach since there was still an 8v8 mode available at launch.
A P2W cash-grab is not an adequate replacement. It's not even the same gamemode, just because it has the same amount of players.
That's like telling people who are missing Team Objective to just go play 4v4 Team Deathmatch.

Besides, they added more MP content than any game had ever had before.
Did it? Not in terms of maps. It has the same amount as Reach (20) and that is only if you include the remix maps. (Which, personally, I wouldn't.) It also has less Warzone maps than Reach had for Firefight.
In terms of weapons, maybe, if you count swapping the scope from one weapon to another. I don't.

What about Forge and Custom game options that allowed for more customization and creativity than every before?
Forge had a huge upgrade with a lot more features, you are correct on that. So yes, there is a positive.
At the same time though, the controls became horrendously cumbersume compared to the simplicity of before and the forge pieces themselves got atrociously ugly to look at. I wouldn't play Forge maps in H5G even if I liked the game, for fear of catching eye cancer.

What about the biggest selection of cosmetics customization than ever before?
...which cannot be unlocked by merit or choice but only in a random microtransaction system, while at the same time reducing the flexibility of customization by removing feet-, shoulder-, and arm-customization and leaving only helm, chest and visor. Also, emblem customization was gone, which could be seen as foreshadowing for Infinite.

What about H2A in the MCC, which was an amazing remaster, from the cutscenes to the improved graphics?
Not done by 343.
Also, far from perfect. The music had a significant downgrade, visuals and audio couldn't be picked individually like in CEA, didn't run in 1080p as promised, etc.

What about the launch of the MCC on PC?
Has some positive aspects but also a lot of negatives. Finally there are some setting options that are long overdue and also were or will be released on console.
At the same time, the games were drip-fed to the community piecemeal, which meant that the multiplayer community never got a chance to develop. The title is already bleeding players and it hasn't even released all games yet. Forge mode came too late to save it. And the games released almost as broken as they did on the XBone. To this day, several achievements are still completely unobtainable in the PC version, just visit the Steam forums for some details. And funnily enough, the updates they released alongside the PC version for the XBone added new bugs and glitches yet again.

The addition of Reach?
Overall, I don't have anything bad to say about that in general (other than the things that I have already mentioned before, such as new bugs and glitches when it was added).
This was indeed a mostly positive thing.

Halo Wars 2?
Not done by 343.

Well, yeah, I guess when you ignore all of that stuff, 343i is kind of a terrible developer and everything they add to the franchise is awful.
Not everything, but most of it.
It has also nothing to do with "ignoring" stuff, but the fact that hardly anything positive they do doesn't come with a "...but" attached to it.
At the very least all you've done is point out these things are a matter of opinion, or simply tried to take the achievement away from 343i by figuring out how to frame it so that it wasn't actually their achievement. You're trying to convince me why 343i is bad, and I simply cannot see it the same way as you. Apparently I have had a completely different experience than everyone else has had ever since 2012, but suffice to say it, I don't mind most of 343i's choices. Maybe that's simply just the nature of my situation, and somehow I wasn't as negatively affected as everyone else, but the simple truth is that I have never actually been upset by one of their products. Maybe my expectations are low? At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, does it? My experience could've been one of complete and total satisfaction but it would never be able to fix someone else's if theirs was filled with disappointment. I guess I'm just trying to use a more positive outlook to show the other potential side of the coin with this issue since it seems like most people only want to focus on one side only and not entertain any other possibilities.
I've just come to accept that Halo Infinite is not being developed with Halo fans in mind. They're aiming for bringing in new players and hoping the old fans buy in anyway despite the distaste. I hope they're fully aware that if this keeps up the game isn't going to make it past a year of relevancy.

Unless 343 somehow pulls through and delivers a good Halo experience I can't see myself spending a single cent on this game. I can't see them making magic happen though, everything I've seen has only brought hopes down. It feels like 343 is back stabbing the fans that have supported the franchise.
I'm a Halo fan, I've been playing since 2009 on Halo 3 and I think everything they've done is ok. I think I'm gonna enjoy the hell out of Infinite. I think you're making the same mistake I've made in the past, which is to generalize who the fans really are. So just so you know, you definitely don't speak for everybody.

Also what, did you expect them to just re-release Halo 3 another 3 times or something? You can't look at a game like Destiny and tell me Bunige, if they had kept working on Halo, would not have at least gone in a similar direction as 343i did.
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