This is just the tip of the iceberg

ran and shai wrote:

Punch Wasps wrote:

ran and shai wrote:

Punch Wasps wrote:

Contrary to what you think, I don't mindlessly hate everything 343i has created. I legitimately loved Halo 4's story (even if the MP disappointed) and was excited to see what they'll do in the followup after receiving feedback. I kind of liked Halo 5's multiplayer as well, but that game launched without basic modes (Oddball, Forge, BTB, etc) and the maps all felt and looked the same, barring Warzone. Eventually, about a year later, it payed off with a series of updates and I genuinely believe that the game would have sustained a large population if it launched that way. It was really good by the end, especially because of Forge.

That being said, I'm not wearing rose-tinted goggles here. There are many problems with 343i's take on Halo. I'm not just talking about the transition from all-in-60$ to predatory REQ packs and microtransactions. Mainly what disappoints me about 343i is their communication with the community (or the lack thereof) as well as their failed promises which feel, in hindsight, like lies.

Is the community partly to blame for 343i's silence? Probably, but 343i need to learn to accept it the way it is. The silence and ambiguity surrounding Infinite is frustrating to much more than just the toxic circles in the fandom, and it's also very worrying. There were rumors the game has been in development hell, and a disappointing demo followed by silence after five years of development really seem to confirm that.

Another thing: I believe you generalize this fandom. There are vocal minorities who are toxic and will hate any new thing introduced to the game, there is a slightly bigger minoritiy of people who are still disappointed about Sprint and Clamber and the like, and then there is the rest of the Halo fandom. Some of them like sprint and some of them don't. Some of them like Spartan Abilities and some of them don't. Some of them like Warzone and some of them don't. A lot of them still believe in 343i, and a lot of them don't.

This is the group in the community that 343i should focus on, because the minorities mentioned will never be satisfied with 343i's vision for the game. It's also the biggest group, by far. Is it sensible to react to the toxicity of the vocal minority by completely cutting off the entire community? In my opinion, no.

Once again: we don't need to see hours of new gameplay footage. What we need, if 343i wants to get us behind them again, is clarity on the most basic things. 343i dropped a news bomb with the MP being Free to Play (only after it got leaked on an online store, mind you) and haven't since addressed what this actually means. That didn't stop them from opening preorders for a 60$ package, the contents of which are unclear. People who are paying now literally don't know what they're paying for.

Besides that, we received mixed messages regarding the format of the campaign (and the story, but that's fine I guess if they're trying to avoid spoilers). It feels like they chose every word carefully to ensure we're left out of the loop. If the July demo was amazing, I guess that'd be enough, but sadly the consensus is that it was just okay (or worse).

I think 343i should ignore the loud minority and focus on the confused, frustrated majority that they can still win back. For me, the coatings aren't really that much of a big deal, I mainly dislike how 343i went about revealing this. It can be done differently and better, I believe that 100%. So why shouldn't it?

You say you don't mindlessly hate but your initial post sings a different tune. If I'm generalizing the fanbase, then what are you doing by stating "The gameplay demo is revealed in the Xbox Showcase and, big surprise, people don't like it." Who are the people you're talking about? I know it's not me, because I thought the gameplay demo was fine. And see, the reason I accuse you of mindless criticism is because you don't even try to entertain any scenarios in which these worries may be a big fat nothing. We know the demo was an old build. I mean, 343i had been working through a pandemic to get us a demo. The coatings could very well be a big fat nothing burger. But you don't want them to be nothing burgers, you want them to be something worth outraging over, so you don't give it any modicum of two-sided comparison or analysis. Only the bad is worth talking about, even when that's not really all there is. We know that the bad isn't all that exists, because people like me exist that can easily take the words and make something good out of it like I've already done. You say "confused, frustrated majority" and I'm not sure you're framing that right either. From what I understand, most people that have refrained from being vocal do so because they aren't actually confused or frustrated at all. They're simply content with what's been seen so far because they aren't particularly interested in extrapolating anything farther than what's been shown. That's where I'm at. Every casual gamer I played with in the weeks following the demo footage shared the same sentiment, which is why I say that at all.

Primus Ego Sum wrote:

SENCHIEF10 wrote:

Danlight6999 wrote:

I've just come to accept that Halo Infinite is not being developed with Halo fans in mind. They're aiming for bringing in new players and hoping the old fans buy in anyway despite the distaste. I hope they're fully aware that if this keeps up the game isn't going to make it past a year of relevancy.

Unless 343 somehow pulls through and delivers a good Halo experience I can't see myself spending a single cent on this game. I can't see them making magic happen though, everything I've seen has only brought hopes down. It feels like 343 is back stabbing the fans that have supported the franchise.

You are right but what is ridiculous is that they’ve been trying that literally with every entry since halo 4. Both 4 and 5 were designed to bring in casuals and new players by changing core mechanics and introducing trendy gimmicks from other games.

the thing is tho neither 4 or 5 were all that successful. Both clearly fell well short of Xbox’s expectations and failed to retain the players that did buy the games let alone attract new ones. You’d think Xbox would learn...

They pretty much explicitly said they are developing their games without concern for (classic) Halo fans. 343 is on record stating they hired people who did not like the original games. They've also said that the MCC is being maintained and developed as the place for classic Halo. if you read between the lines, they've basically said they view the MCC as the population dumpster for original fans, and new games are explicitly not being made for them.

They've succeeded in taking Halo from being a flagship system selling title and leader in FPS game design to something resembling a typical EA or Ubisoft annual game - good enough to appease enough people that it doesn't generate internet riots and can get 8/10 scores from places like IGN, jammed with enough microtransactions to prey upon the exploitable, those with FOMO, and the "whales", and completely "safe" and unremarkable in all other aspects of its game design.

They won't "learn" until they have a commercial failure which causes major personnel shake-ups in the top levels of management at 343, because it is the decisions made at those top levels which have led Halo in these directions. So long as Halo does OK commercially - and we have no reason to expect that Infinite won't - you should get used to playing the MCC if you like classic Halo game design.

At least they gave us a rank system in MCC which will take like 20-30 years for most people to complete...

The thing I would add to this is that there is no way halo 4 or 5 performed at an acceptable level for Microsoft. I’m sure they made a profit but Halo as an IP is significantly more important to xbox than just having a goal to make an ROI on its development cost as it is a flagship. There is no doubt in my mind that both 4 and 5 were likely considered “failures” internally as they did not sell copies, retain players, or grow the fanbase remotely at the same rate as halo 2 or 3 did to grow both the IP and the Xbox brand. Cornerstone IP Like halo, gears serve a much more important role beyond their individual P&L sheet.

They have also already tried the games as service model with both halo 5 and gears 4 and 5. Not one of these 3 games became a major hit and all quickly were overtaken in player base by popular 3rd party games. If anything especially in halo 5’s the service model attempt was universally panned by people that loved and hated halo 5. The content rollout was slow pitiful and disappointing.

Id argue their attempts so far have been abysmal and tone deaf.

Your Ubisoft comparison is very apt.

Primus Ego Sum wrote:

SENCHIEF10 wrote:

Primus Ego Sum wrote:

SENCHIEF10 wrote:

Danlight6999 wrote:

I've just come to accept that Halo Infinite is not being developed with Halo fans in mind. They're aiming for bringing in new players and hoping the old fans buy in anyway despite the distaste. I hope they're fully aware that if this keeps up the game isn't going to make it past a year of relevancy.

Unless 343 somehow pulls through and delivers a good Halo experience I can't see myself spending a single cent on this game. I can't see them making magic happen though, everything I've seen has only brought hopes down. It feels like 343 is back stabbing the fans that have supported the franchise.

You are right but what is ridiculous is that they’ve been trying that literally with every entry since halo 4. Both 4 and 5 were designed to bring in casuals and new players by changing core mechanics and introducing trendy gimmicks from other games.

the thing is tho neither 4 or 5 were all that successful. Both clearly fell well short of Xbox’s expectations and failed to retain the players that did buy the games let alone attract new ones. You’d think Xbox would learn...

They pretty much explicitly said they are developing their games without concern for (classic) Halo fans. 343 is on record stating they hired people who did not like the original games. They've also said that the MCC is being maintained and developed as the place for classic Halo. if you read between the lines, they've basically said they view the MCC as the population dumpster for original fans, and new games are explicitly not being made for them.

They've succeeded in taking Halo from being a flagship system selling title and leader in FPS game design to something resembling a typical EA or Ubisoft annual game - good enough to appease enough people that it doesn't generate internet riots and can get 8/10 scores from places like IGN, jammed with enough microtransactions to prey upon the exploitable, those with FOMO, and the "whales", and completely "safe" and unremarkable in all other aspects of its game design.

They won't "learn" until they have a commercial failure which causes major personnel shake-ups in the top levels of management at 343, because it is the decisions made at those top levels which have led Halo in these directions. So long as Halo does OK commercially - and we have no reason to expect that Infinite won't - you should get used to playing the MCC if you like classic Halo game design.

At least they gave us a rank system in MCC which will take like 20-30 years for most people to complete...

The thing I would add to this is that there is no way halo 4 or 5 performed at an acceptable level for Microsoft. I’m sure they made a profit but Halo as an IP is significantly more important to xbox than just having a goal to make an ROI on its development cost as it is a flagship. There is no doubt in my mind that both 4 and 5 were likely considered “failures” internally as they did not sell copies, retain players, or grow the fanbase remotely at the same rate as halo 2 or 3 did to grow both the IP and the Xbox brand. Cornerstone IP Like halo, gears serve a much more important role beyond their individual P&L sheet.

They have also already tried the games as service model with both halo 5 and gears 4 and 5. Not one of these 3 games became a major hit and all quickly were overtaken in player base by popular 3rd party games. If anything especially in halo 5’s the service model attempt was universally panned by people that loved and hated halo 5. The content rollout was slow pitiful and disappointing.

Id argue their attempts so far have been abysmal and tone deaf.

Your Ubisoft comparison is very apt.

I agree, but H4 and H5 apparently weren't such flops that MS decided to can all the top brass at 343.

My thought is they are simple being stubborn and giving 343 a long leash, knowing their previous attempts with H4, 5 and gears have failed. I think they are still chasing the successful games as a service games like fortnite, R6 siege etc. They know that if they can get one of the games to land as successfully as that then it makes the previous failures worth the effort. I question though whether it will ever work for halo.

Overall I wish people were better consumers. Games as a service has been such a net negative for both game design and content quality in so many franchises ( looking at you battlefield). I barely play any of the major franchise games I used to love.

Punch Wasps wrote:

ran and shai wrote:

Punch Wasps wrote:

ran and shai wrote:

Punch Wasps wrote:

You say you don't mindlessly hate but your initial post sings a different tune. If I'm generalizing the fanbase, then what are you doing by stating "The gameplay demo is revealed in the Xbox Showcase and, big surprise, people don't like it." Who are the people you're talking about? I know it's not me, because I thought the gameplay demo was fine. And see, the reason I accuse you of mindless criticism is because you don't even try to entertain any scenarios in which these worries may be a big fat nothing. We know the demo was an old build. I mean, 343i had been working through a pandemic to get us a demo. The coatings could very well be a big fat nothing burger. But you don't want them to be nothing burgers, you want them to be something worth outraging over, so you don't give it any modicum of two-sided comparison or analysis. Only the bad is worth talking about, even when that's not really all there is. We know that the bad isn't all that exists, because people like me exist that can easily take the words and make something good out of it like I've already done. You say "confused, frustrated majority" and I'm not sure you're framing that right either. From what I understand, most people that have refrained from being vocal do so because they aren't actually confused or frustrated at all. They're simply content with what's been seen so far because they aren't particularly interested in extrapolating anything farther than what's been shown. That's where I'm at. Every casual gamer I played with in the weeks following the demo footage shared the same sentiment, which is why I say that at all.

First of all, I appreciate the change in tone. It's certainly possible that the majority is content and silent, you're right there. The majority on Halo social media isn't, though, from what I've seen the opposite is the case. Statistically it's not really fair to ectrapolate the global Halo fandom's content or discontent from what we see in social media, but it's the only resource pool we have.

I'm sure there are many fans like yourself who are happy and content, and I'm glad you're here representing them as I haven't seen them very often. That being said, I'll return to my previous point. The majority of people on social media (from my experience) seem to be disappointed by the demo and other things about Infinite. I guess this post is presenting that opinion, and thoigh you may completely disagree (which is fair) this opinion is still valid just as yours is.

Regarding the word choice of the original post, i may have used stronger wording than I should have and in doing so refrained from being neutral. That being said, I stand by the content of the post. I think it captures the current feelings of a large group of Halo fans and also presents options going forward rather than being completely pessimistic. I'm sure you can see the good in that, as well

ran and shai wrote:

Punch Wasps wrote:

ran and shai wrote:

Punch Wasps wrote:

ran and shai wrote:

Punch Wasps wrote:

You say you don't mindlessly hate but your initial post sings a different tune. If I'm generalizing the fanbase, then what are you doing by stating "The gameplay demo is revealed in the Xbox Showcase and, big surprise, people don't like it." Who are the people you're talking about? I know it's not me, because I thought the gameplay demo was fine. And see, the reason I accuse you of mindless criticism is because you don't even try to entertain any scenarios in which these worries may be a big fat nothing. We know the demo was an old build. I mean, 343i had been working through a pandemic to get us a demo. The coatings could very well be a big fat nothing burger. But you don't want them to be nothing burgers, you want them to be something worth outraging over, so you don't give it any modicum of two-sided comparison or analysis. Only the bad is worth talking about, even when that's not really all there is. We know that the bad isn't all that exists, because people like me exist that can easily take the words and make something good out of it like I've already done. You say "confused, frustrated majority" and I'm not sure you're framing that right either. From what I understand, most people that have refrained from being vocal do so because they aren't actually confused or frustrated at all. They're simply content with what's been seen so far because they aren't particularly interested in extrapolating anything farther than what's been shown. That's where I'm at. Every casual gamer I played with in the weeks following the demo footage shared the same sentiment, which is why I say that at all.

First of all, I appreciate the change in tone. It's certainly possible that the majority is content and silent, you're right there. The majority on Halo social media isn't, though, from what I've seen the opposite is the case. Statistically it's not really fair to ectrapolate the global Halo fandom's content or discontent from what we see in social media, but it's the only resource pool we have.

I'm sure there are many fans like yourself who are happy and content, and I'm glad you're here representing them as I haven't seen them very often. That being said, I'll return to my previous point. The majority of people on social media (from my experience) seem to be disappointed by the demo and other things about Infinite. I guess this post is presenting that opinion, and thoigh you may completely disagree (which is fair) this opinion is still valid just as yours is.

Regarding the word choice of the original post, i may have used stronger wording than I should have and in doing so refrained from being neutral. That being said, I stand by the content of the post. I think it captures the current feelings of a large group of Halo fans and also presents options going forward rather than being completely pessimistic. I'm sure you can see the good in that, as well

I think we reached as common a ground as we'll get on the topic and I know I'm pretty burnt out on my discussion with people on the issue, which is probably fine for everyone. I obviously can't blame you for fighting for what you think would make Halo succeed as a franchise, which would obviously be good for all of us. I suppose in a way I'm choosing the more difficult path, because I'm asking something from the entire community whereas you're just asking for something from the devs. I mean, really what I think I'm asking for is for people to be more conservative and focused with criticisms and to try to not get upset for being upset's sake, which I know does happen (I one time saw a guy on YouTube upload a video arguing that 343i did a bad thing by releasing Halo 3 earlier than they said they would. Like, MCC's awful launch state I get but stuff like that?? c'mon now).

I suppose the only reservation I still have is that I think the assumption that a majority of people not enjoying 343i's choices because you don't see people saying so is a dangerous one to make. The vocal majority is called the "vocal" majority for a reason. That's the only takeaway I'd want anyone reading this to take away I suppose. Otherwise, I will definitely admit that you have done the work to at least bring up several solutions to the problem you've identified, which I can definitely value more than someone who simply states a problem and does nothing to help contribute to a solution.

xTerroriser05 wrote:

Don’t even try to compare this shader system to Destiny 2. At least 95% of Destiny shaders are free and earned.

This is more like CSGO weapon skins. I would like to point out that they still haven't explained how we would obtain these coatings other than obvious gameplay and as a "bonus" for purchasing Infinite branded merch.

GAMRKNIGHT352 wrote:

xTerroriser05 wrote:

Don’t even try to compare this shader system to Destiny 2. At least 95% of Destiny shaders are free and earned.

This is more like CSGO weapon skins. I would like to point out that they still haven't explained how we would obtain these coatings other than obvious gameplay and as a "bonus" for purchasing Infinite branded merch.

I would expect the same model as other F2P games, with Battle Pass unlocks alongside randomized lootboxes. The biggest question remains whether there'll be a large pool to choose from from day one, or if people will be very limited customization wise when they start the game

But I think there's a relevant thread for the Coatings where these things should be discussed

When will Infinite come out?
When will there be a Beta?
Will campaign be open world or not?
How will MP work?
We need answers 343i!

hxminid wrote:

Damn.

Truth be told, I was only going to buy the XBX to go enjoy Infinite at it's max capacity.

I see the infrequent release of info about this game, my interest declines inevitably. I see the open world concept, along with the F2P- now this I could have possibly dealt with. I see things I disliked in the gameplay reveal, amongst those the grapple shot (how could a 1,000lb spartan not rip a cliff or building off when he grapples to them, just straight nonsense) and now I won't be able to choose my own colors? Unbelievable.

Why would they make such terrible decisions? I don't see the "spiritual reboot" in this at all.
I've been holding on to being a gamer literally for this game, and after learning this I honestly don't want to play this game anymore.
I've never wanted to say " I remember when Halo was good" but here I am, an inch away from it.

Until this gets resolved I'm not going to buy this game and the console. I might even just stop following this game's news.

You just lost what, $600 dollars from me MS. I can imagine I'm not the only one who feels this way. I wonder if the casuals who'll pay for a "coating" during the gamepass then never play the game again will make up for it.

If they don’t get their -Yoink- together, the One X in the US will definitely tank imo. Let’s be honest, a huge reason why people even still get Xboxs is because of Halo’s history and legacy in their lives, no matter what shape or form of Halo we are getting. I hate to say it, but if they reveal a heaping pile of manure, then I may have to consider a PS5 or stop playing games like I’ve been doing for the past yrs... last time I had a PlayStation was PS2 and I loved it. It was only by chance that when I was a kid, my parents decided to get my little Special Edition CE Xbox, and I have been loyal for this long. If they don’t care or are really in a frenzy and have no clue what they’re doing anymore, then I will cease to keep caring until they make real changes with whatever massive faults come with the game’s reveals

Pick one or both :)

1. They have no idea what they are doing or something fishy is going on behind the scenes. (And has been for some time)

2. They want you to get as little info as possible about the systems and content since the coating stuff is just the beginning.

Halo Infinite possibilities for monetization.