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This will kill the game if it makes it to release.

OP ATH Sovereign

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qlimm wrote:
qlimm wrote:
This is a bad take honestly. Just because you dont like using a controller doesnt mean everyone should be forced to conform to your playstyle or not be allowed to enjoy their time. Just turn on input based matchmaking and shut up, simple.
I really wish people would stop muddying this thread up with their anecdotal belief on why they think "xbox good pc bad".

Do you think 343 is trying to make a good game or cater to you?
You are just as dismissive. By trying to get rid of aim assist you are essentially ignoring the fact that controllers are inferior tools of precision and a controller sans aim assist is nearly useless.
Adapt. The game should be evolving. Which it is by coming to PC...
You're literally using the same argument that you are complaining about (controller users telling YOU to adapt). It is clear you don't want to take part in any discourse at all on this topic and this thread is at a stalemate, like every other KBM vs. controller thread...
Adapt how? By installing a soft aimbot like controller users? Lol
qlimm wrote:
qlimm wrote:
This is a bad take honestly. Just because you dont like using a controller doesnt mean everyone should be forced to conform to your playstyle or not be allowed to enjoy their time. Just turn on input based matchmaking and shut up, simple.
I really wish people would stop muddying this thread up with their anecdotal belief on why they think "xbox good pc bad".

Do you think 343 is trying to make a good game or cater to you?
You are just as dismissive. By trying to get rid of aim assist you are essentially ignoring the fact that controllers are inferior tools of precision and a controller sans aim assist is nearly useless.
Adapt. The game should be evolving. Which it is by coming to PC...
You're literally using the same argument that you are complaining about (controller users telling YOU to adapt). It is clear you don't want to take part in any discourse at all on this topic and this thread is at a stalemate, like every other KBM vs. controller thread...
Adapt how? By installing a soft aimbot like controller users? Lol
Ideally you wouldn't have to adapt.

343 would be trying to have the 'aimbot' settings so that a controller player of a particular skill level breaks even against a KB&M player of the same skill level.

The 'bot' isn't about giving an advantage - it's about evening the playing field (and interestingly, I've seen people whining from both sides).

If 343 gets it right a player who is familiar with both set ups should have similar results wether they are playing PC or console.
I'll be honest, I think it'd be fine the way it is now.
Darwi wrote:
Adapt. The game should be evolving. Which it is by coming to PC...
Attempts at trolling aside... it is the PC gamers that will have to adapt. Halo is a flag ship game for Microsoft's console. Until they change the default controllers on the console to KB&M it will always revolve around the controller.

But can someone highlight the pros and cons for me... not being a PC gamer.

Controllers obviously rely on aim assist and a bit of bullet magnetism. I would have thought that would be most helpful when doing headshots from mid-distance and targets are relatively close together.

KB&M more raw targeting but have the ability to change angles quickly and have aiming independant of turning? Better for frantic close in encounters... and long distance enemies that are further apart?

At what stage do the pros and cons just cancel each other out - with players gravitating to the input that better suits their style of play?
It comes down to your aiming skill really. Ive known some really bad PC players and ive known god like console players. If you played on a controller for years and then switch to M&K you are going to be worse at first, but if you keep practicing as you did with controller you will find its more responsive and you have better aim. In terms of halo, if you watch the video in the TLDR, you will see how auto aim works and the range of it. The range caps out a little over when your crosshair is red and you can literally miss your shot but the bullet magnetism essentially curves the bullet to hit your target. So basically controller is better in every situation besides maybe long range shots (not really) and when you have to do a quick 180° turn in MCC
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Its time to put the way of using a controller and having a literal soft aimbot (in multiplayer) behind. In no way should people be put at a disadvantage using M&K compared to someone who gets a aimbot installed whenever they plug a controller in. If this remains in the game you can consider anything related to Competitive community and Esports dead.
OK, so you saying take controllers out of Halo, or maybe your saying just to remove all aim assist.

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Players should be able to play however they want, and people shouldn't be forced to use an objectively inferior input device to compete just because "Halo was on console first".
I completely agree. The game shouldn't force people to use an input device that would put them at a disadvantage.

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I like crossplay, but there absolutely cant be a 'modifier' placed by 343 that makes controller superior. Maybe that doesnt involve removing it and just tweaking it
Yes, I agree with this point as well. When I load up a game, I don't want to look at the roster and feel either dominance or despair simply judging from other players input device. To clarify, any modifier, or lack thereof, should not make one device superior to the other. It sounds like you coming around to the idea of a modifier, as long as it balances things.

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From my experience a really good controller player can compete at a high level easily. But (1)there is a skill cap lower than what you can achieve with M&K. I think having a auto (2)aim feature on by default in MP just to make controller players not suck at the game immediately is a detriment to this game and its success.
All I see is biased console player opinions so far on how it wouldnt be fair to them and 343 owes it to them to keep auto aim in the game so console players can have a handicap instead of (3)balancing the game around it. 343 needs to (4)NOT appeal to the casual fanbase right now, and putting the game on PC was a huge first step.
Wow, there's a lot in this one.
(1) So you are saying that a raw comparison, without any assists enabled, would put the mouse and keyboard as the superior input device. I think this is generally agreed upon by most in the community. See my previous responses; removing assists would obviously make the mouse and keyboard superior, effectively forcing people to use that device. Sounds like a good way to alienate the majority of the fan base.
(2) To turn this statement around: So you think that removing aim assist "to make controller players... suck at the game" is better for the game and it's success?
(3) Now we're back to a modifier on the controller? or are you saying flip the bird to the controller players and balance the game around solely mouse and keyboard?
(4) I can not express how much I disagree with this statement. I don't have the numbers, and maybe no one does, but I imagine that the casual fanbase is the larger majority of the fanbase (maybe even significantly larger). Is it too much to ask for 343 to appeal to both categories? I don't think so.

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A simple amount of critical thinking and experience playing both platforms would conclude that gamepads and consoles are old technology and Halo making the jump to PC means they are trying to part ways with this old technology to improve their game. They even say they want it to feel completely native on PC in their Inside Infinite post.
Interesting conclusion. Call me a caveman on old technology if you like, but I figured it had more to do with appealing to a larger market. (the irony here is that mouse and keyboard technology is significantly older than that of an Xbox controller)

So, we can agree that it would be bad for the game to have settings such that the mouse and keyboard players are at a disadvantage. It sounds like where we diverge is that I also don't want settings such that the controller players are at a disadvantage.

I'm an advocate of game design that causes the results of a game to be based on the skill of the players, not the device the players are using. This is something that can only be accomplished through massive data acquisition and analysis, then tuning. This data does not exist for Infinite right now. The balancing between controller and mouse and keyboard is one of many things the flights are intended for, and the balancing will continue beyond launch. I believe 343 will do all they can to make the game balanced for all players.

Finally, in closing, if you have a superiority complex with your mouse and keyboard, and don't want to mingle with the simpletons using "old technology" then adjust your matchmaking settings.
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Its time to put the way of using a controller and having a literal soft aimbot (in multiplayer) behind. In no way should people be put at a disadvantage using M&K compared to someone who gets a aimbot installed whenever they plug a controller in. If this remains in the game you can consider anything related to Competitive community and Esports dead.
OK, so you saying take controllers out of Halo, or maybe your saying just to remove all aim assist.

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Players should be able to play however they want, and people shouldn't be forced to use an objectively inferior input device to compete just because "Halo was on console first".
I completely agree. The game shouldn't force people to use an input device that would put them at a disadvantage.

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I like crossplay, but there absolutely cant be a 'modifier' placed by 343 that makes controller superior. Maybe that doesnt involve removing it and just tweaking it
Yes, I agree with this point as well. When I load up a game, I don't want to look at the roster and feel either dominance or despair simply judging from other players input device. To clarify, any modifier, or lack thereof, should not make one device superior to the other. It sounds like you coming around to the idea of a modifier, as long as it balances things.

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From my experience a really good controller player can compete at a high level easily. But (1)there is a skill cap lower than what you can achieve with M&K. I think having a auto (2)aim feature on by default in MP just to make controller players not suck at the game immediately is a detriment to this game and its success.
All I see is biased console player opinions so far on how it wouldnt be fair to them and 343 owes it to them to keep auto aim in the game so console players can have a handicap instead of (3)balancing the game around it. 343 needs to (4)NOT appeal to the casual fanbase right now, and putting the game on PC was a huge first step.
Wow, there's a lot in this one.
(1) So you are saying that a raw comparison, without any assists enabled, would put the mouse and keyboard as the superior input device. I think this is generally agreed upon by most in the community. See my previous responses; removing assists would obviously make the mouse and keyboard superior, effectively forcing people to use that device. Sounds like a good way to alienate the majority of the fan base.
(2) To turn this statement around: So you think that removing aim assist "to make controller players... suck at the game" is better for the game and it's success?
(3) Now we're back to a modifier on the controller? or are you saying flip the bird to the controller players and balance the game around solely mouse and keyboard?
(4) I can not express how much I disagree with this statement. I don't have the numbers, and maybe no one does, but I imagine that the casual fanbase is the larger majority of the fanbase (maybe even significantly larger). Is it too much to ask for 343 to appeal to both categories? I don't think so.

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A simple amount of critical thinking and experience playing both platforms would conclude that gamepads and consoles are old technology and Halo making the jump to PC means they are trying to part ways with this old technology to improve their game. They even say they want it to feel completely native on PC in their Inside Infinite post.
Interesting conclusion. Call me a caveman on old technology if you like, but I figured it had more to do with appealing to a larger market. (the irony here is that mouse and keyboard technology is significantly older than that of an Xbox controller)

So, we can agree that it would be bad for the game to have settings such that the mouse and keyboard players are at a disadvantage. It sounds like where we diverge is that I also don't want settings such that the controller players are at a disadvantage.

I'm an advocate of game design that causes the results of a game to be based on the skill of the players, not the device the players are using. This is something that can only be accomplished through massive data acquisition and analysis, then tuning. This data does not exist for Infinite right now. The balancing between controller and mouse and keyboard is one of many things the flights are intended for, and the balancing will continue beyond launch. I believe 343 will do all they can to make the game balanced for all players.

Finally, in closing, if you have a superiority complex with your mouse and keyboard, and don't want to mingle with the simpletons using "old technology" then adjust your matchmaking settings.
I would be willing to bet that the casual player fanbase will be the majority of the players on Infinite and at least initially there will be more controller players than mouse and keyboard. If the game is so unbalanced that it puts these players at a severe disadvantage from the start the game will be a complete disaster and have a release like Halo 5 did, very high sales but a lot of disappointed customers. The game has to become balanced so that it should not matter which input device a person prefers. Hopefully the data that 343 is getting from MCC is enough to get Infinite close to that balance when it comes out but it definitely will have to be adjusted again after Infinite has been out for a while and enough data and feedback becomes available to make necessary adjustments.
I appreciate how much you put into the response and the formatting haha

I simply think 343 shouldnt mess with the inherant nature of K&M being a superior input device and instead of "buffing" controller with auto aim they should look for an alternative way or leave it as is but removed

I think the skill ceiling on controller is exaggerated compared to M&K also. It is higher on M&K, but I think only enough to matter at high level play.i guess my question for you is: If K&M are naturally better than controller is it not fair to assume someone of the same skill level has a slight advantage because you are using an objectively inferior input device for the sake of comfort? I think it is. /shrug

Console players can have the option to "opt out" of crossplay or use it to expand search. This seems pretty reasonable to me.
If you've got a better idea to expanding the fanbase to both console and PC and allowing both communities to play together all while maintaining a fair and balanced experience, then you win the golden goose.

Let me reword your question to make sure I understand it:
If M&K are naturally better than controller, is it not fair to assume that someone using M&K has a slight advantage to an equally skilled player using a controller?
Yes. Absolutely the M&K player has an advantage, hence the need to try and resolve that advantage if the players are to actually play together on their preferred device.

Attempts to resolve the disparity will never be perfect. So it can only really be accomplished generally. I'm not a data analysist, but essentially the two input devices and their applicable modifiers would be considered balanced if you were to take the results of hundreds of thousands (preferably more) of game results and saw that keyboard and controller players had the same win ratio when matched against each other.
Of course, this is extremely complicated considering all the factors that go into a game's outcome, skill being only one of those (and how do you measure skill anyways?). Spending only a few minutes thinking about all the factors and how much they may or may not influence the results of the data, it is easy to see why this is such a hard problem to solve. You can't even compare how one game does it vs another. There are simply too many differences between even very similar games.

So yes, the balance isn't perfect in MCC, and it won't be perfect in Infinity either, but 343 has honestly done a great job of getting MCC to a place where the two input devices can play together and have an enjoyable experience. You may argue that controller is overly buffed, and you might be right for all we know. I think we can all agree that, in general, an unassisted controller player would not have an enjoyable experience going up against a M&KB player. So that leaves 343 with two options, find a way to level the playing field, or keep the communities separate. I suppose they have humbly added a third option of allowing a player to separate themselves from the other part of the community through their matchmaking search settings if they are not satisfied with the balancing.

Personally, I'll play with a controller because it is really hard to use a mouse and keyboard on my lap while I'm kicking back on the couch next to my buddies. It's hard enough to sort out the cold drink and pizza without making a mess.
I dont see this being discussed anywhere which is pretty concerning to me honestly as it seems like it could potentially make it into the game without even being looked at by the developers. Auto Aim, Bullet Magnetism, 'Controller Aimbot' NEED to be removed from PC entirely, controller or M&K.

Its time to put the way of using a controller and having a literal soft aimbot (in multiplayer) behind. In no way should people be put at a disadvantage using M&K compared to someone who gets a aimbot installed whenever they plug a controller in. If this remains in the game you can consider anything related to Competitive community and Esports dead.

Lets make one thing clear and something that shouldn't even be debatable, a controller should be used for casual play, NOT competitive play, the best players should not be forced to use a controller sacrificing the superior precision and responsiveness of Mouse and Keyboard. If you want to play the game Competitively you should be using technology that is standard to competitive games and any catering to controllers in the form of "Auto Aim" is a detriment to competitive integrity. If you want Auto Aim on console sure, but turn crossplay off for this, making it optional is not enough at least for competitive playlists or anything ranked. After all, is it better to cater to the casuals or make a good competitive fps where the game doesn't aim for you? If you want a better understanding on how auto aim works and will probably work in Halo Infinite, check out the video in the TLDR below.

This thread may come off as bashing the game or controller users but I honestly believe this is crucial to the success of Halo on PC and I hope someone at 343 can give us more information regarding this.

TLDR: Watch this video and try to understand that this doesn't belong in a Competitive FPS like Halo: Infinite and it will be a grave mistake if anything even close to this makes it into the release of the game.
thee fact you talk about the superior precsion and response of m&k show why controller needs aim assist. To balance stuff out
I appreciate how much you put into the response and the formatting haha

I simply think 343 shouldnt mess with the inherant nature of K&M being a superior input device and instead of "buffing" controller with auto aim they should look for an alternative way or leave it as is but removed

I think the skill ceiling on controller is exaggerated compared to M&K also. It is higher on M&K, but I think only enough to matter at high level play.i guess my question for you is: If K&M are naturally better than controller is it not fair to assume someone of the same skill level has a slight advantage because you are using an objectively inferior input device for the sake of comfort? I think it is. /shrug

Console players can have the option to "opt out" of crossplay or use it to expand search. This seems pretty reasonable to me.
but thats unfair because no auto aim would put controllers at a massive disadvantage so how about if I want 2 play it with my pc friend where I cant turn crossplay off how about them
I appreciate how much you put into the response and the formatting haha

I simply think 343 shouldnt mess with the inherant nature of K&M being a superior input device and instead of "buffing" controller with auto aim they should look for an alternative way or leave it as is but removed

I think the skill ceiling on controller is exaggerated compared to M&K also. It is higher on M&K, but I think only enough to matter at high level play.i guess my question for you is: If K&M are naturally better than controller is it not fair to assume someone of the same skill level has a slight advantage because you are using an objectively inferior input device for the sake of comfort? I think it is. /shrug

Console players can have the option to "opt out" of crossplay or use it to expand search. This seems pretty reasonable to me.
All players regardless of device have the option to opt out of crossplay/use Input-based MM.

You're still entirely failing to see the hypocrisy of your stance to remove any form of assist for controllers: if that was done you'd simply end up having this discussion in reverse that all players are being forced to use M&K if they want to play certain modes.

The dream here is to get an assist package to the place where there is next to no noticeable difference between input types and the only differentiator between players becomes skill. Are we there yet? Evidently not in your eyes, but the future is all about bringing people together across multiple platforms, not dividing.

Yes esports or even lower-stakes competitions can, probably will, and quite possibly should have input-based restrictions to ensure competitiveness and an entirely even playing field. Potentially even at a certain level within the higher reaches of competitive playlists too depending on how close to even the inputs can be made.
qlimm wrote:
This is a bad take honestly. Just because you dont like using a controller doesnt mean everyone should be forced to conform to your playstyle or not be allowed to enjoy their time. Just turn on input based matchmaking and shut up, simple.
I really wish people would stop muddying this thread up with their anecdotal belief on why they think "xbox good pc bad".

Do you think 343 is trying to make a good game or cater to you?
You are just as dismissive. By trying to get rid of aim assist you are essentially ignoring the fact that controllers are inferior tools of precision and a controller sans aim assist is nearly useless.
Adapt. The game should be evolving. Which it is by coming to PC...
Evolving should not involve nuking half, if not more of the player base.
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To add to that, I would say removing aim assist makes it nearly impossible for a controller player to actually land shots unless they are really good. Using a real example with Sea of Thieves, that game has no aim assist for controllers. It is impossible to land a shot on anyone unless both are standing still while the PC players can run circles around you. Aim assist simply closes the gap since controllers don't have that precise point and click.Not only that, but OP's thread sounds like sacking the game in the name of competitive Esports and the like. How about not. Let's have a fun game and not one designed to create nothing but sweaty tournaments.
That part I highlighted is pure nonsense. Aim assist is not that essential
This is also false for the vast majority of players. Maybe a extremely small amount of players don't have it as a factor, but I can guarantee if you removed it, you would see this type of thread popping up in the reverse constantly. Sea of Thieves already has that type of thread keep popping up. Clearly it was added to console shooters for a reason, and way before cross-play was even an idea.

Also to quote myself from Twitter on a similar subject:
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I think Halo needs to focus on being a fun game. Everyone is so focused on being big for MLG or ESports. Whatever happened to just having something fun to play?
Halo 5 went all in on trying to be comp. It failed. Crippling controllers in the name of being competitive would kill the game faster than any distaste for a gameplay choice or monetization scheme.
qlimm wrote:
This is a bad take honestly. Just because you dont like using a controller doesnt mean everyone should be forced to conform to your playstyle or not be allowed to enjoy their time. Just turn on input based matchmaking and shut up, simple.
I really wish people would stop muddying this thread up with their anecdotal belief on why they think "xbox good pc bad".

Do you think 343 is trying to make a good game or cater to you?
You are just as dismissive. By trying to get rid of aim assist you are essentially ignoring the fact that controllers are inferior tools of precision and a controller sans aim assist is nearly useless.
Adapt. The game should be evolving. Which it is by coming to PC...
Evolving should not involve nuking half, if not more of the player base.
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To add to that, I would say removing aim assist makes it nearly impossible for a controller player to actually land shots unless they are really good. Using a real example with Sea of Thieves, that game has no aim assist for controllers. It is impossible to land a shot on anyone unless both are standing still while the PC players can run circles around you. Aim assist simply closes the gap since controllers don't have that precise point and click.Not only that, but OP's thread sounds like sacking the game in the name of competitive Esports and the like. How about not. Let's have a fun game and not one designed to create nothing but sweaty tournaments.
That part I highlighted is pure nonsense. Aim assist is not that essential
This is also false for the vast majority of players. Maybe a extremely small amount of players don't have it as a factor, but I can guarantee if you removed it, you would see this type of thread popping up in the reverse constantly. Sea of Thieves already has that type of thread keep popping up. Clearly it was added to console shooters for a reason, and way before cross-play was even an idea.

Also to quote myself from Twitter on a similar subject:
Quote:
I think Halo needs to focus on being a fun game. Everyone is so focused on being big for MLG or ESports. Whatever happened to just having something fun to play?
Halo 5 went all in on trying to be comp. It failed. Crippling controllers in the name of being competitive would kill the game faster than any distaste for a gameplay choice or monetization scheme.
Entirely agree with you and this is where I really like the strategic thinking we're hearing from things like the recent Ask343 stream (here) they have clearly learned that one size fits all doesn't work with a lot of things and by designing systems which allow experience-specific tailoring of behind the scenes parameters (while still maintaining that unified feel), I think they're well and truly on the way to achieving that.

You can't design the MP efficiently without thinking about all your use scenarios (Social, Customs, Competitive, eSports, etc) but likewise you can't just treat all of them like ingredients to be added as preset portions. Tradeoffs will always have to be made and getting the recipe right is what they're about.
You guys know that you can buy a modded controller with autoaim, etc, that works for both pc and Xbox live?
That's a bigger problem than just the normal autoaim that comes with using a controller on pc.
And imo Microsoft does not care if they are being used.
This will destroy competitive play alone
You guys know that you can buy a modded controller with autoaim, etc, that works for both pc and Xbox live?
That's a bigger problem than just the normal autoaim that comes with using a controller on pc.
And imo Microsoft does not care if they are being used.
This will destroy competitive play alone
Well that's clearly cheating and if you believe someone is using it then they should be reported. You can report a player on the Halo Support site linked in the Waypoint top bar. I also report to Xbox Live generally.
I feel that IF there is going to be soft aimbot for controllers, then disable it for competitive matches. some players don't have a chance to get a mouse and keyboard and need the added assist.
M&K is the superior output no question. So it shouldn’t be a problem if you truly want to focus on getting competitive to out play anyone on controller even with the aim assist. Without aim assist controller is essentially unplayable and that’s ruining the game for the players who don’t want to take that step to play sweat feast online and learn a new control scheme for a game they have been playing since they were kids.
Wouldn't be the Halo community if they didn't wildly blow every small issue out of proportion, while propagating an argument that diffuses itself. I must wonder, what quantifies as competitive to you, specifically, because gosh darn are you being melodramatic. Even worse, I've got to wonder why the superior precision and responsiveness doesn't outweigh what you can do with a controller... almost like you're confused about what you're trying to say. You know, other games that have mouse and keyboard, and controller support, while also having aim assist and bullet magnetism still have the top players using keyboard and mouse exclusively because it gives a far greater advantage than aim assist ever could. So I know you wanted to get your shorts in a bunch, and make this grandiose statement that it isn't debatable, but really, your point is weak... and you need to take yourself waaaay less seriously.

TL;DR
Your problem is a non-problem that won't even remotely kill the game or impact the "competitive scene". Woe is you.
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Lets make one thing clear and something that shouldn't even be debatable, a controller should be used for casual play, NOT competitive play, the best players should not be forced to use a controller sacrificing the superior precision and responsiveness of Mouse and Keyboard. If you want to play the game Competitively you should be using technology that is standard to competitive games and any catering to controllers in the form of "Auto Aim" is a detriment to competitive integrity.
I feel that IF there is going to be soft aimbot for controllers, then disable it for competitive matches. some players don't have a chance to get a mouse and keyboard and need the added assist.
Making half the game modes nearly unplayable for controllers is not the way to go. It has nothing to do with being able to or having the chance. Controller players should have the choice to stay on their preferred input without a trade-off just as MK+M players would have.

Sabotaging one input to make the already superior input even better just isn't sound logic.
I feel that IF there is going to be soft aimbot for controllers, then disable it for competitive matches. some players don't have a chance to get a mouse and keyboard and need the added assist.
Making half the game modes nearly unplayable for controllers is not the way to go. It has nothing to do with being able to or having the chance. Controller players should have the choice to stay on their preferred input without a trade-off just as MK+M players would have.

Sabotaging one input to make the already superior input even better just isn't sound logic.
As a semi-decent controller player, I can’t agree with this more.
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