Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

Vehicles need to be properly BALANCED!

OP Sir Boobington

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Vehicles have been the fundamental part of Halo since it's inception and they play a pivotal role in how maps and game modes are played, but since 343i took the reins of Halo they have become more and more useless (specifically the Warthog!).

In Halo 1-3 vehicles health and armour were tied to the players shields, and specifically for the Warthog the vehicle's armour would only go down to a certain point, making the vehicle harder to destroy with small arms fire. But with Reach-Halo 5, the Health & armour mechanics changed to a % base, meaning every bit of damage sustained stayed on the vehicle until it exploded.

The old style meant the armour only dropped to a certain point, then it started damaging the occupants, meaning once shields and health recuperated, so did the warthog to an extent. This all meant the best way to kill a vehicle was to use weapons designed for that as opposed to shooting small arms until the vehicles health dropped to 0.

Here is a link how the old system functioned. Be warned there is music and can be slightly loud. Don't have max volume unless you like rocking to Halo metal.

Some might say that is OP(this is gameplay of myself and a friend), but honestly the enemy made a fatal error, they were stomping us big time and our team got frustrated and kept getting killed; once we had our 'Hog going, we told EVERYONE to stay on our side of the map, shoot with a BR and try and keep us alive while killing the red bars. The enemy saw victory within their grasp, all they had to do is kill a couple more and they didn't focus on the Warthog soon enough and that's when they failed. It's not that hard to kill a Warthog, and they were Rambo'ing it, no coordination at all. This is without a doubt my most fondest memory of Halo ever in multiplayer.

But since 343i took over they continued Bungies Reach design, and even made the vehicles worse by far. You could still use a warthog in Reach, but once 343i took over they made the Warthog's armour even worse and continued the trend.

With 343i embracing the older aesthetics of Halo with Halo Infinity I implore 343i to take a hard look at the vehicle state in the meta of multiplayer and if nothing else, make a Legacy Warthog with the old health system for BTB/non-Warzone playlists. Because it honestly sucks driving a Warthog that'll blow up in 60 seconds from DMR fire.

I have made posts regarding this for Halo 4 and 5 and I'm hoping 343i can objectively look at vehicles and come up with a goldilocks zone where everything can fit nicely in with each other.

Below are some key points that I think need to be focused on:
  • Remove the current Health/Armour system and reintroduce the old style.
  • Fortify Warthog turret, Halo 1-Reach, weapons were far less accurate, meaning it actually took skill to BR or DMR someone off the gunner seat of a 'Hog, now though small arms weapons have never been more accurate, I'm not the best shot and I can often shoot someone out of a gunner turret at a good range, so if weapons are going to continue being laser accurate then the Warthog turret needs to be more protective, but exposed enough to allow a small zone for a sniper to get a head shot. *******This is by far the most important point*******
  • Tone down the sniper damage vs Vehicles, once again historically the sniper did not do much damage to vehicles, if you wanted to kill a vehicle you needed weapons with explosive damage or a laser, but now all it takes is a few shots from a sniper to put any vehicle down, so unless it's a super special anti vehicle sniper, tone down their damage.
Basically vehicles need to be actual threats again to players, bring back the old health system or at the very least make some legacy vehicles with the old health system and place them on normal maps that don't have the REQ system if that's still a thing, make the gunner more protected so that they don't die 10 seconds into the engagement, and make it so you need to coordinate to kill a vehicle instead of one or two people shooting a BR/DMR into the thing, unless you have weapons designed to take them out, small arms and to an extent the sniper should do negligible amount of damage. If you agree or feel strongly about these topics please respond with your ideas and suggestions and stay active here, I plan to maintain this thread for a long time and keep updating so feel free to do the same.
Agreed. I was playing Halo reach two days ago and even Reach had a MUCH better vehicle health system than Halo 4-5. Would be best if it returned to Halo 3 style, and yes tone down bullet magnesium.
Not that it matters, but Reach definitely started the chip damage system that has been plaguing vehicles this whole time, 343 could have dropped it at any time, but for some reason its the one of the holdouts from Reach that I can't understand why it still exists, no-bleedthrough on certain weapons is another but I digress.

Otherwise I agree wholeheartedly. Precision weapons are just absurdly powerful when used against vehicles it takes all the fun out of using them. When humble BRs/DMRs/Carbines/LRs etc can ruin a vehicle with permanent damage using basic focus fire you take driver skill out of the equation. You can dodge rockets, stickies, and other assorted heavy weapons fire all day, but you can't dodge hitscan bullets or most human projectiles. Your long term success as a pilot is determined by the number of enemies that bother to shoot at you when you expose yourself. Against a brainless team its hard to tell the difference between CE-3 and Reach-H5, but against a team with a modicum of common sense they are going to ruin you day the moment expose your vehicle. The system engenders passivity, especially with tanks and other heavy vehicles.

People wonder why Reach and Halo 4 often devolved into stagnant, long range shooting matches. When your even your vehicles can't push forward they end up cowering around spawn which makes it often suicidal for infantry to push into enemy held territories.

The sniper in particular is just broken when it comes to vehicles. The premier anti-infantry weapon does not need to be able destroy vehicles outright. It should shoot through glass and cockpits, but not heavily damage the vehicle itself. And no Anti-Material =/= Anti-tank or Anti-Air.
Thank you im not the only one that noticed this it always feels awkward getting murdered in the seat of the warthog especially and if im driving its particular difficult to keep my gunner alive.
Back in my day... (nb4 get off my lawn)

We had hatches that you would shoot off of the tank with a sniper, exposing the creamy goodness that was the drivers head. We had exhaust ports on Wraiths and fuel cells on the sides of Ghosts, both adding massive damage boosts with any type of attack to the the vehicle. Hell, we could shoot the the Warthog any where we wanted, as long as it wasn't the front.

All I'm saying is that if we keep these highly accurate weapons we should have strategic spots to aim for on these vehicles.

Edit: Forgot to make my point.
I feel that we should get back to our roots in regards to vehicles. Make them strong, and even give them a chance to heal up a bit.

For instance; in H3 you could have your vehicle smoking and on fire, but still make a run across the map. It was weaker than a new one and would explode when you got out, but it was based on your shields.
SBTTLS wrote:
Back in my day... (nb4 get off my lawn)

We had hatches that you would shoot off of the tank with a sniper, exposing the creamy goodness that was the drivers head. We had exhaust ports on Wraiths and fuel cells on the sides of Ghosts, both adding massive damage boosts with any type of attack to the the vehicle. Hell, we could shoot the the Warthog any where we wanted, as long as it wasn't the front.

All I'm saying is that if we keep these highly accurate weapons we should have strategic spots to aim for on these vehicles.

Edit: Forgot to make my point.
I feel that we should get back to our roots in regards to vehicles. Make them strong, and even give them a chance to heal up a bit.

For instance; in H3 you could have your vehicle smoking and on fire, but still make a run across the map. It was weaker than a new one and would explode when you got out, but it was based on your shields.
I really miss those good old days. Now weapons are so accurate and have like 3x the effective range than they used to so even a BR can start hitting the gunner well before the warthog gunner can even accurately shoot at them.
SBTTLS wrote:
Back in my day... (nb4 get off my lawn)

We had hatches that you would shoot off of the tank with a sniper, exposing the creamy goodness that was the drivers head. We had exhaust ports on Wraiths and fuel cells on the sides of Ghosts, both adding massive damage boosts with any type of attack to the the vehicle. Hell, we could shoot the the Warthog any where we wanted, as long as it wasn't the front.

All I'm saying is that if we keep these highly accurate weapons we should have strategic spots to aim for on these vehicles.

Edit: Forgot to make my point.
I feel that we should get back to our roots in regards to vehicles. Make them strong, and even give them a chance to heal up a bit.

For instance; in H3 you could have your vehicle smoking and on fire, but still make a run across the map. It was weaker than a new one and would explode when you got out, but it was based on your shields.
I really miss those good old days. Now weapons are so accurate and have like 3x the effective range than they used to so even a BR can start hitting the gunner well before the warthog gunner can even accurately shoot at them.
Possibly a non obvious shared sheild system would help with that?
I mean, we have so many weapons in the sandbox that are designed to combat vehicles. Why not have a system in place where you disable the vehicle with an EMP, or just beat it up enough where then you can more easily take out the gunner?

I feel that this keeps the balance where a lone player can take out a Warthog if they are equipped to do so, but also keep the Hog as lethal and as useful as it was in past entries to the franchise.

A tank beats everything except a fully manned Hog.
SBTTLS wrote:
SBTTLS wrote:
Back in my day... (nb4 get off my lawn)

We had hatches that you would shoot off of the tank with a sniper, exposing the creamy goodness that was the drivers head. We had exhaust ports on Wraiths and fuel cells on the sides of Ghosts, both adding massive damage boosts with any type of attack to the the vehicle. Hell, we could shoot the the Warthog any where we wanted, as long as it wasn't the front.

All I'm saying is that if we keep these highly accurate weapons we should have strategic spots to aim for on these vehicles.

Edit: Forgot to make my point.
I feel that we should get back to our roots in regards to vehicles. Make them strong, and even give them a chance to heal up a bit.

For instance; in H3 you could have your vehicle smoking and on fire, but still make a run across the map. It was weaker than a new one and would explode when you got out, but it was based on your shields.
I really miss those good old days. Now weapons are so accurate and have like 3x the effective range than they used to so even a BR can start hitting the gunner well before the warthog gunner can even accurately shoot at them.
Possibly a non obvious shared sheild system would help with that?
I mean, we have so many weapons in the sandbox that are designed to combat vehicles. Why not have a system in place where you disable the vehicle with an EMP, or just beat it up enough where then you can more easily take out the gunner?

I feel that this keeps the balance where a lone player can take out a Warthog if they are equipped to do so, but also keep the Hog as lethal and as useful as it was in past entries to the franchise.

A tank beats everything except a fully manned Hog.
That might work in some cases but the problem in my opinion is the difference between slayer, btb and Warzone. In WZ a person can REQ a PP or something early on but in BTB it's a little different in some respect. It's still a very good possible fix though. As long as a sniper can still kill you out of the vehicle is all.

I think that's why I may have initially suggested more armour around the player in the front and back, or at the very least the front. The gunner needs more survivability because honestly I never got in the gunner seat unless I had an overshield. and even that was a stretch because it would only last like 10 seconds at best.
I 100% agree on what you said, I believe they should go even further and fix the the physics of vehicles too (especially the Warthog). They should try to emulate the physics of halo 3. In halo 4 and 5 vehicles when shot by any weapon the vehicle spirals out of control when shot mid air which is really annoying and when a perfectly placed gernade hits the vehicle it just slides over like it's nothing. This method means there is no skill in taking down a vehicle and doesn't reward good driving. In halo 3 if you placed a gernade with good timing you would filp the Warthog over and it was satisfying and funny to see them be thrown across the map instead of just sliding over
The two largest problems with Halo 4 and 5's vehicles (especially Halo 5) were the play-spaces and lack of variation in enemy vehicles when driving around. Halos 2, 3, ODST and Reach all have terrific vehicle combat because the areas around them are well designed. The encounters with enemies (infantry, vehicles, aircraft and turrets) within the different environments had loads of variety and opportunity to approach situations differently. Halo 1 had less variation in enemies during vehicle gameplay. However, the open level design of Halo 1's vehicle areas was tremendous, providing a sense of freedom we have still not seen again in seventeen years. Regarding the Halo 5 campaign, the vehicle areas were extremely linear and closed-in with very few chances to play the game in more ways than one. Halo: Infinite needs more diversity in its level design for vehicles as well as more types of enemy vehicles, turrets and other large enemies that the player will encounter while operating vehicles.
I definitely don’t want the CE/Reach system. Why should my Spartan be taking damage when inside the vehicle and ultimately killed with the vehicle in good condition? A few people can’t successfully destroy and active vehicle. Most of the team needs to focus fire on it to destroy it, and that’s honestly the way it should be.
The two largest problems with Halo 4 and 5's vehicles (especially Halo 5) were the play-spaces and lack of variation in enemy vehicles when driving around. Halos 2, 3, ODST and Reach all have terrific vehicle action because the areas around them are well designed. The encounters with enemies (infantry, vehicles, aircraft and turrets) within the different environments had loads of variety and opportunity to approach situations differently. Halo 1 had less variation in enemies during vehicle gameplay. However, the open level design of Halo 1's vehicle areas was tremendous, providing a sense of freedom we have still not seen again in seventeen years. Regarding the Halo 5 campaign, the vehicle areas were extremely linear and closed-in with very few chances to play the game in more ways than one. Halo: Infinite needs more diversity in its level design for vehicles as well as more types of enemy vehicles, turrets and other large enemies that the player will encounter while operating vehicles.
You are right on that! A lot of the maps recently kinda felt like they were on rails, the vehicle tracks on the map were pretty much the ones used because everything else was too bumpy or had trees and obstacles. At least mostly in Warzone.
I really feel like 343i should take some inspiration from the map design in Star Wars Battlefront II.
Each map (I know these are all scaled to the speed and what-not of the ingame characters) has sections of the map all the way through where it's perfect for vehicular play, and can give the vehicle user opportunity to rain down on infantry. But there are enough undulating areas with cover for infantry to totally avoid vehicles if they so wish.

But totally agree OP.
I agree with the general idea, but like WerepyreND already said, Reach began this trend of weak vehicles. The Reach system is closer to the Halo 4 and 5 system than it is to anything in the original trilogy, and it was an equally bad system. Also, the system in CE functions like nothing else, with only Covenant vehicles being destructible (and funnily enough, having health that is independent of driver health).

Really, small arms should only be able to marginally weaken the vehicle, but in order to destroy it, you would either have to use some explosive damage, or another vehicle. In addition, a single grenade not stuck to a vehicle should never completely destroy the vehicle since grenades are so common. In any case, small arms should never be enough to make a vehicle blow up.

However, while vehicles should be more difficult to destroy, and the Spartan Laser should essentially be the only weapon that can destroy vehicles at range, it also means that players on foot must be given more chances to destroy the vehicle. Because while destroying a vehicle should be a challenge and not just a matter of spamming at it whenever you see it, using a vehicle should also be a challenge. And there's nothing as easy as sitting back with a Ghost out of the reach of players, or bombing them from the sky with a Banshee. Any small armed vehicle that can be operated by a single player (Ghost, Banshee, Revenant) should have its weapons fairly ineffective at distance, so that the driver would be forced closer to their targets. For these Convenant vehicles that use projectiles, it means that those projectiles should be fairly slow so that they are easy for a player to dodge at a distance. Vehicles that require a driver and a gunner are less of an issue, because they take up two players from a team, but they too benefit from needing to get a bit closer. Like, for example, the Gauss Warthog was always far too easy to dominate with as long as there was enough space for it. The regular Warthog is much more interesting for both parties involved because it can't snipe players.

Finally, maps should of course be designed to balance vehicles against infantry. This in particular means that locations which are good for vehicles to get to, like near bases, should also contain fairly thight spaces, or should have plenty of places for players to hide behind and ambush the vehicle. I think the high line on Standoff that goes over the bases is a good example of a reasonably well balanced area that doesn't make the vehicle a sitting duck, but still leaves room for ambushes. When it comes to maps with tanks, the main spawn areas should always be protected from them such that in order to shoot at them, the tank would have to go into a space where players can safely jump onto it from all sides. Most maps that have had a tank have been pretty terrible about just letting the tank into an easy camping position.

As much as I think we need vehicles that a skilled player should in principle be able to survive in for an indefinite amount of time, I've also had far too easy time with vehicles, especially with tanks and Banshees. I don't care what vehicle it is, a Running Riot shouldn't be the norm. That's why with increased durability we need to consider ways to get vehicle users to expose themselves more.
I don't have much to add currently but yea the vehicle gameplay has gone downhill. I though Halo 3 the best, had the nice balance of vehicle can die if you played smart but at the same time if you had great driver and gunner for a warthog.......deadly combo.
tsassi wrote:
I agree with the general idea, but like WerepyreND already said, Reach began this trend of weak vehicles. The Reach system is closer to the Halo 4 and 5 system than it is to anything in the original trilogy, and it was an equally bad system. Also, the system in CE functions like nothing else, with only Covenant vehicles being destructible (and funnily enough, having health that is independent of driver health).

Really, small arms should only be able to marginally weaken the vehicle, but in order to destroy it, you would either have to use some explosive damage, or another vehicle. In addition, a single grenade not stuck to a vehicle should never completely destroy the vehicle since grenades are so common. In any case, small arms should never be enough to make a vehicle blow up.

However, while vehicles should be more difficult to destroy, and the Spartan Laser should essentially be the only weapon that can destroy vehicles at range, it also means that players on foot must be given more chances to destroy the vehicle. Because while destroying a vehicle should be a challenge and not just a matter of spamming at it whenever you see it, using a vehicle should also be a challenge. And there's nothing as easy as sitting back with a Ghost out of the reach of players, or bombing them from the sky with a Banshee. Any small armed vehicle that can be operated by a single player (Ghost, Banshee, Revenant) should have its weapons fairly ineffective at distance, so that the driver would be forced closer to their targets. For these Convenant vehicles that use projectiles, it means that those projectiles should be fairly slow so that they are easy for a player to dodge at a distance. Vehicles that require a driver and a gunner are less of an issue, because they take up two players from a team, but they too benefit from needing to get a bit closer. Like, for example, the Gauss Warthog was always far too easy to dominate with as long as there was enough space for it. The regular Warthog is much more interesting for both parties involved because it can't snipe players.

Finally, maps should of course be designed to balance vehicles against infantry. This in particular means that locations which are good for vehicles to get to, like near bases, should also contain fairly thight spaces, or should have plenty of places for players to hide behind and ambush the vehicle. I think the high line on Standoff that goes over the bases is a good example of a reasonably well balanced area that doesn't make the vehicle a sitting duck, but still leaves room for ambushes. When it comes to maps with tanks, the main spawn areas should always be protected from them such that in order to shoot at them, the tank would have to go into a space where players can safely jump onto it from all sides. Most maps that have had a tank have been pretty terrible about just letting the tank into an easy camping position.

As much as I think we need vehicles that a skilled player should in principle be able to survive in for an indefinite amount of time, I've also had far too easy time with vehicles, especially with tanks and Banshees. I don't care what vehicle it is, a Running Riot shouldn't be the norm. That's why with increased durability we need to consider ways to get vehicle users to expose themselves more.
Hey tsassi! I remember you from a long time ago... I think you actually posted on my old thread regarding bringing the warthog back from uselessness for H4/5 lol, glad to see you still around.

Your post is spot on! A good chunk of the problem regarding excellent players in single occupancy vehicles getting perfections and riots in a ghost or banshee lies in players lack of information IMO, some people probably rage and throw themselves against a wall but there should be some sort of system in place that drops helpful tips like, "Having difficulties with an annoying banshee? Try using a Plasma Pistol/rockets/laser/whatever" and maybe even give a little waypoint to the nearest weapon that can help them.

The above point isn't the most well thought out idea but it could help the newer players a bit, coming from a jerk that was brutal on Sandtrap with a Banshee... It could help a bunch. That map is littered with weapons and vehicles that can destroy a Banshee and I could manage to survive quite a bit under heavy pressure. I'm sure it's hard to balance all these scenarios but I truly hope they can manage because out of all the games with vehicles, Halo did it the best I think until Reach and forward.
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The vehicles definitely should be useful in many of the mentioned ways. they should be reinforced to resist small arms fire requiring multiple shooters to take it out.

The turret plating could be higher or the gunners head lower, also the auto aim properties for all weapons should be reduced if not removed. The bullet magnetism definitely needs to go for the exception of such as needler which has had it as a point with its slow projectiles.

The core player mechanics also have a problem to them when considering vehicles. Armor abilities and sprint basically effect the map design and reduce the traveling speed difference between vehicles and players on foot.
To get vehicles back to being more useful Halo should just take a step back and utilize the regular core player mechanics and mix that with objects found around the map like it used to.
extra player abilities and good usage of vehicles really dont go well together.
I 100% agree on what you said, I believe they should go even further and fix the the physics of vehicles too (especially the Warthog). They should try to emulate the physics of halo 3. In halo 4 and 5 vehicles when shot by any weapon the vehicle spirals out of control when shot mid air which is really annoying and when a perfectly placed gernade hits the vehicle it just slides over like it's nothing. This method means there is no skill in taking down a vehicle and doesn't reward good driving. In halo 3 if you placed a gernade with good timing you would filp the Warthog over and it was satisfying and funny to see them be thrown across the map instead of just sliding over
After thinking about your comment for a while I have to agree with you on this, before the warthog still got pushed around quite a bit and frag grenades would flip the 'Hog quite easily, but back then the Warthog wasn't as bouncy, the newer iterations felt like they filled the vehicle with helium. I seem to recall it was really bad in H4 and still bad in H5 but there were so many different types of Warthogs it's hard for me to remember if all of them had this issue or not.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think the increased mobility in the newer games is in part the reason why vehicles such as the Warthog feel underpowered. In Halo 3 for example, using a Warthog gave a player a significant advantage over the slower moving, less mobile infantry it was against. However, in a game like Halo 5, infantry players can sprint, slide, thrust, hover, and clamber, making them much more mobile. This means that although a vehicle may have infinite ammo and more health, a skilled infantry player with a decent power weapon can actually do a significant amount of damage on their own compared to previous games.

While I mentioned all of the newer spartan abilities, this is by no means a critique of them, but rather an example of how they have the potential to make vehicles less viable. I think that something more needs to be added to some of the ground vehicles in particular in Halo Infinite if they're to remain relevant, but I'm not entirely sure what.
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