Forums / Games / Halo Infinite

Why it is wrong to use old designs

OP Enrico 117

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I preface this by saying, even though I already made up my mind and won't buy, nor play Halo Infinite, I still have cared about Halo for the longest time. One of the many different reasons I won't play HI is the character design. I am not the biggest expert in design, but I like to think I know a thing or two, and one of the things I know quite well is storytelling is a fundamental aspect of good design. In particular, the old Covenant design was simple, purple and shiny because the religious cult of the Covenant values uniformity, rules, rigor, elegance, luxury and power (and things like that). The Banished are a high-tech, brutal, tactical coalition that uses rough edges, scrap metal and red color (if I'm not mistaken). The old design is out of place and confusing in this context. The old design tells the wrong story. This is bad design, it's fundamentally flawed. As much as you don't care about the lore, it's wrong and disrespectful to completely ignore it and tell a different story with your design. I'd like to hear from another concept artist or a character designer their take on this topic.
It's difficult to pass judgement on a game without actually playing it first OP. If you're going to openly announce that you won't be playing 343's game, what incentive does 343 have to listen to your suggestions about how to improve their game?
Trick question, It's not wrong.
Chief was designed with the old artstyle in mind, and its one of the few aspects 343 actually got right imo
Get rid of the distracting shield recharge effect and maybe I can focus on the other visuals.
Well there are no explanations why 2 styles of aliens decided to join forces. My guess the classic elites (Originally the "storm Covenant" but with classic armor) belong to the Harbinger and the Banished are Banished. If you think these designs don't make sense well then you can say the same about Halo Wars 2.
It's difficult to pass judgement on a game without actually playing it first OP. If you're going to openly announce that you won't be playing 343's game, what incentive does 343 have to listen to your suggestions about how to improve their game?
this goes both ways... why would the developer listen to feedback of people who already announced they will buy the product regardless or even have already preorderd

i agree, that games (and movies/books etc.) shouldn't be judged before being released.

but i do believe, that by watching trailers and or listening to reviewers, who have similar taste, people can get enough information to make a good decision to buy or not. but that isn't before release... and with todays "culture" of changing games after release, it is still a gamble
It's difficult to pass judgement on a game without actually playing it first OP. If you're going to openly announce that you won't be playing 343's game, what incentive does 343 have to listen to your suggestions about how to improve their game?
I don't have any hope 343 will ever listen to my feedback. I merely want to share an opinion based on what's common knowledge among designers and my experience. So that the comunity can have better tools to form better opinions in the future.
xsv wrote:
Chief was designed with the old artstyle in mind, and its one of the few aspects 343 actually got right imo
There are things that work with the old art style and things that don't work anymore. I'm not really sure if Chief design is right or fitting, but I don't see any major design flaws yet, and I agree, he actually looks good. Speaking about the rest though, no mater how much 343 is willing to lie to it self and the community, the overwelming majority of comments about the last trailer, both those who liked it or not, all criticize the graphics in some capacity.
Trick question, It's not wrong.
There's really no question at all.
WSerg wrote:
It's difficult to pass judgement on a game without actually playing it first OP. If you're going to openly announce that you won't be playing 343's game, what incentive does 343 have to listen to your suggestions about how to improve their game?
this goes both ways... why would the developer listen to feedback of people who already announced they will buy the product regardless or even have already preorderd
i agree, that games (and movies/books etc.) shouldn't be judged before being released.

but i do believe, that by watching trailers and or listening to reviewers, who have similar taste, people can get enough information to make a good decision to buy or not. but that isn't before release... and with todays "culture" of changing games after release, it is still a gamble
It does go both ways. You're absolutely right about that. But one could argue 343 would be more motivated to listen to those who have expressed interest in buying their product than those who have unequivocally stated they will not buy their product.
WSerg wrote:
It's difficult to pass judgement on a game without actually playing it first OP. If you're going to openly announce that you won't be playing 343's game, what incentive does 343 have to listen to your suggestions about how to improve their game?
this goes both ways... why would the developer listen to feedback of people who already announced they will buy the product regardless or even have already preorderd
i agree, that games (and movies/books etc.) shouldn't be judged before being released.

but i do believe, that by watching trailers and or listening to reviewers, who have similar taste, people can get enough information to make a good decision to buy or not. but that isn't before release... and with todays "culture" of changing games after release, it is still a gamble
I won't judge the game before release or before playing it. What I'll do and am doing is deciding if the trailer did enough to sell me on the game. What I saw and what I know about 343 is really more than enough for me to decide, I will change my mind if some major changed happens, but my main point was about the design. The Banished design in particolar.
Enrico 117 wrote:
I preface this by saying, even though I already made up my mind and won't buy, nor play Halo Infinite, I still have cared about Halo for the longest time. One of the many different reasons I won't play HI is the character design. I am not the biggest expert in design, but I like to think I know a thing or two, and one of the things I know quite well is storytelling is a fundamental aspect of good design. In particular, the old Covenant design was simple, purple and shiny because the religious cult of the Covenant values uniformity, rules, rigor, elegance, luxury and power (and things like that). The Banished are a high-tech, brutal, tactical coalition that uses rough edges, scrap metal and red color (if I'm not mistaken). The old design is out of place and confusing in this context. The old design tells the wrong story. This is bad design, it's fundamentally flawed. As much as you don't care about the lore, it's wrong and disrespectful to completely ignore it and tell a different story with your design. I'd like to hear from another concept artist or a character designer their take on this topic.
I hadn't thought of that, the visual design differences just between Covenant and Banished. That's an excellent point and makes the game look even worse now lol.
Enrico 117 wrote:
Trick question, It's not wrong.
There's really no question at all.
Exactly, it's definitely not wrong.

Glad we could see eye to eye on this, for a moment I thought you were serious!!
Enrico 117 wrote:
Trick question, It's not wrong.
There's really no question at all.
Exactly, it's definitely not wrong.

Glad we could see eye to eye on this, for a moment I thought you were serious!!
I see, you like to make jokes then.
Enrico 117 wrote:
xsv wrote:
Chief was designed with the old artstyle in mind, and its one of the few aspects 343 actually got right imo
There are things that work with the old art style and things that don't work anymore. I'm not really sure if Chief design is right or fitting, but I don't see any major design flaws yet, and I agree, he actually looks good. Speaking about the rest though, no mater how much 343 is willing to lie to it self and the community, the overwelming majority of comments about the last trailer, both those who liked it or not, all criticize the graphics in some capacity.
Graphics and Artstyle are two different things though. The more smooth, simplistic designs of both Master Chief and the Covenant (now Banished) have always been this way and in my honest opinion should have never changed. I agree the models for the Banished Brutes could use more sharp edges and the models could use some more grit and scratches, but I don't feel their armor designs are bad. The Elites, Grunts and Jackels finally look like Elites, Grunts and Jackels again, not Brutes in Elite armor, Goblins,and Raptors with shields like they did in 4 and 5. I mean you can have your opinions on the designs, but I feel 343 nailed the more classic designs of these characters.
Enrico 117 wrote:
xsv wrote:
Chief was designed with the old artstyle in mind, and its one of the few aspects 343 actually got right imo
There are things that work with the old art style and things that don't work anymore. I'm not really sure if Chief design is right or fitting, but I don't see any major design flaws yet, and I agree, he actually looks good. Speaking about the rest though, no mater how much 343 is willing to lie to it self and the community, the overwelming majority of comments about the last trailer, both those who liked it or not, all criticize the graphics in some capacity.
Graphics and Artstyle are two different things though. The more smooth, simplistic designs of both Master Chief and the Covenant (now Banished) have always been this way and in my honest opinion should have never changed. I agree the models for the Banished Brutes could use more sharp edges and the models could use some more grit and scratches, but I don't feel their armor designs are bad. The Elites, Grunts and Jackels finally look like Elites, Grunts and Jackels again, not Brutes in Elite armor, Goblins,and Raptors with shields like they did in 4 and 5. I mean you can have your opinions on the designs, but I feel 343 nailed the more classic designs of these characters.
Art style and design are two different things too, but both are part of the graphics. The art style has been different in every single Halo game till this point, designs have stayd consistent for a few games. Graphics instead are the most criticized thing in the trailer. My critics skip over the graphic fidelity, I would spend days on how bad the graphics are in the new trailer. I totally agree: 343 nailed the old design, but I'm arguing that's not a good thing, it's a bad thing instead. Good design tells a story, bad design doesn't tell any story, awful design tells the wrong story. I don't know if I can be any more clear than this, but the old design, while people may love it or not, has little to do with the Banished. The old design says that the Covenant has never been defeted, and the Banished are the same thing as the Covenant.
Enrico 117 wrote:
I preface this by saying, even though I already made up my mind and won't buy, nor play Halo Infinite, I still have cared about Halo for the longest time. One of the many different reasons I won't play HI is the character design. I am not the biggest expert in design, but I like to think I know a thing or two, and one of the things I know quite well is storytelling is a fundamental aspect of good design. In particular, the old Covenant design was simple, purple and shiny because the religious cult of the Covenant values uniformity, rules, rigor, elegance, luxury and power (and things like that). The Banished are a high-tech, brutal, tactical coalition that uses rough edges, scrap metal and red color (if I'm not mistaken). The old design is out of place and confusing in this context. The old design tells the wrong story. This is bad design, it's fundamentally flawed. As much as you don't care about the lore, it's wrong and disrespectful to completely ignore it and tell a different story with your design. I'd like to hear from another concept artist or a character designer their take on this topic.
Old designs can be good if used correctly, in the case of Halo infinite banished designs they were mostly definitely misused
Enrico 117 wrote:
I preface this by saying, even though I already made up my mind and won't buy, nor play Halo Infinite, I still have cared about Halo for the longest time. One of the many different reasons I won't play HI is the character design. I am not the biggest expert in design, but I like to think I know a thing or two, and one of the things I know quite well is storytelling is a fundamental aspect of good design. In particular, the old Covenant design was simple, purple and shiny because the religious cult of the Covenant values uniformity, rules, rigor, elegance, luxury and power (and things like that). The Banished are a high-tech, brutal, tactical coalition that uses rough edges, scrap metal and red color (if I'm not mistaken). The old design is out of place and confusing in this context. The old design tells the wrong story. This is bad design, it's fundamentally flawed. As much as you don't care about the lore, it's wrong and disrespectful to completely ignore it and tell a different story with your design. I'd like to hear from another concept artist or a character designer their take on this topic.
Old designs can be good if used correctly, in the case of Halo infinite banished designs they were mostly definitely misused
I think it's better to focus on the reasons the old design is liked so much. The main argument of those who like the old design is they like it because it's simple, it's colorful, Covenants are more slender and it's "iconic". The old art style is somewhat more contrasty, with more saturated colors, way fewer details and way less graphic fidelity. I think the right move is to take those elements and incorporate them in the newer art style, not to use the older art style with the older design and try to add some details and some graphic fidelity. For example, take the elites from Halo Wars 2 trailers, make them a bit more slender, reshape the helmet and the knee guards a bit, paint the armor with some bright and some dark shades of a glossy blu color with red accents, put a few spikes, or a few metal pads, or some blades where they fit and you have a way better design for the elites, with the Halo Wars 2 art style and way more graphic fidelity. All of that while still having some elements from the classic design and old art style incorporated. Same with grunts, jakals and brutes, which do not look anything like the very appreciated brutes from Halo Wars 2 btw.
Enrico 117 wrote:
Enrico 117 wrote:
xsv wrote:
Chief was designed with the old artstyle in mind, and its one of the few aspects 343 actually got right imo
There are things that work with the old art style and things that don't work anymore. I'm not really sure if Chief design is right or fitting, but I don't see any major design flaws yet, and I agree, he actually looks good. Speaking about the rest though, no mater how much 343 is willing to lie to it self and the community, the overwelming majority of comments about the last trailer, both those who liked it or not, all criticize the graphics in some capacity.
Graphics and Artstyle are two different things though. The more smooth, simplistic designs of both Master Chief and the Covenant (now Banished) have always been this way and in my honest opinion should have never changed. I agree the models for the Banished Brutes could use more sharp edges and the models could use some more grit and scratches, but I don't feel their armor designs are bad. The Elites, Grunts and Jackels finally look like Elites, Grunts and Jackels again, not Brutes in Elite armor, Goblins,and Raptors with shields like they did in 4 and 5. I mean you can have your opinions on the designs, but I feel 343 nailed the more classic designs of these characters.
Art style and design are two different things too, but both are part of the graphics. The art style has been different in every single Halo game till this point, designs have stayd consistent for a few games. Graphics instead are the most criticized thing in the trailer. My critics skip over the graphic fidelity, I would spend days on how bad the graphics are in the new trailer. I totally agree: 343 nailed the old design, but I'm arguing that's not a good thing, it's a bad thing instead. Good design tells a story, bad design doesn't tell any story, awful design tells the wrong story. I don't know if I can be any more clear than this, but the old design, while people may love it or not, has little to do with the Banished. The old design says that the Covenant has never been defeted, and the Banished are the same thing as the Covenant.
The problem with that is though, the designs they had throughout 4 and 5 ruined the lore of the Covenant. The Elites were to big, and brutish to be the warriors they were designed to be. Hell Halo 5's cutscenes showed the issues of the Elites and how slow and bumbling they were. The Grunts can't breathe oxygen, so it makes no sense for them to be designed where their mouth is exposed, the Jackels were excellent marksmen and had extremely good eyesight, and their old design did a great job conveying that while the new design, did not, they looked like they should not be able to hit the broad side of a barn let alone be the terrors they were on Legendary Halo 2. They had designs that complemented their lore and 343 basically designed them, almost the opposite of what they would do. Now they actually feel like themselves again, rather than a bastardized version of them. Also, Halo 2-3's Master Chief is just more iconic, then Halo 4's and 5. The armor just did not work for Cheif and felt more like a hindrance to him that an upgrade. Spartan 2's are supposed to be agile and sleek and Halo 4 and 5's armor did not give off that impression, it made him feel to slow and tankish despite it being the same armor he was wearing. Also the lore in how he got that armor was muddied and just not believable. Also, 343 has stated the Banished are essentially a ''Rebooted' Covenant, so in a sense yes they are not defeated in that since. Also even with the empire gone, you are not going to dissolve an empire that has existed for thousands of years, in less than 10 years, there are still Remnants out there, the Storm Covenant is evidence of that. Also we know nothing about this "Harbinger" 343 mentioned, if I had to make a guess, that is another "Covenant Remnant" that worships Cortana, (I mean that call Cortana made at the end of Halo 5, had to mean something" so the more traditional looking Brutes, Grunts and Jackels might be a part of the "Harbinger' rather than the "Banished" and the Red and Black Brutes are the actual Banished, and we wil see more of them later on. I mean, the fact that Jackels exist, means they have to be a part of another faction considering the Banished did not have Jackels in their ranks.
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