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Why remove the Classic Weapons?

OP YummierInk9044

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I would say I've been on the more optimistic side of the community regarding Halo Infinite. I saw the demo and I was like yeah graphics aren't great and they can be touched up (although the build from weeks ago as opposed to months has me worried).

However, the thing that absolutely astounds me is why classic weapons like the magnum and tactical shotgun are not in Infinite based on this:

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/infinite-inquiries

I can appreciate having the both the sidekick (though if we are going for a Halo 2 vibe, at least add like the green colour lights like the Halo 2 pistol) and the bulldog as new weapons and I suppose it adds variety. That said, why on earth would you remove the original magnum and shotgun?

Even in the dev post above, 343, you guys yourselves said the sidekick is more of a sidearm whilst the bulldog is a faster firing but weaker shotgun. Why not have both the classic shotgun and magnum and have a set up like this:

Sidekick
  • Low Damage - Make it useful as a backup weapon but not something that should have a quick enough time to kill that it makes no sense to pick up a DMR or BR.
  • Swap to it very quickly - suppose you drain shields using the AR but then you run out of ammo. Rather than waiting for a reload, you quickly swap to the sidekick for a headshot.
  • No Zoom/ADS - We don't know how ADS/Zoom will work in Infinite (we saw it in the demo for a weapon that had a definitive scope) so we don't know if all weapons can zoom in. However, I think the sidekick should not have a zoom, again in accordance with its role as a backup weapon rather than a main utility weapon like the BR or DMR or even the Halo CE/ Halo 5 Pistol.
Magnum
  • Higher damage than the sidekick with a higher rate of fire: The best analogy for feel would be the Halo CE pistol though without the rediculous damage output (no 3 shot kills please). That being said it should be stronger than the sidekick and viable up close.
  • Zoom - Unlike the sidekick, the magnum can zoom in.
I appreciate maybe having two pistols makes the sandbox cluttered but then at least make the sidekick look more Halo esque rather than a weapon in every other first person shooter. Even adding the green lights or something on the back would be a very good start.

Now for the shotgun, as you guys said the bulldog fires faster but lower damage. Why not have the original tactical shotgun as a heavier hitting but slower firing alternative. In particular in the campaign, I can imagine if the Flood are in the game (nuts not to have them in game given it's Zeta Halo though T-rating Flood, ugh), the bulldog can be used to kill the lower rank combat forms as we know the flood absolutely swarms the player whilst the bulldog can be for the stronger tank forms.

I can see no reason not to include both weapons as it adds variety at the very least and even in past Halos, there have been weapons that have been more viable in campaign than multiplayer and vice versa.

For instance, in my opinion, the Halo CE needler was decent in campaign though there was almost no reason to use it in multiplayer whilst the assault rifle in some games is decent in multiplayer in some games (especially if you get the jump) but almost worthless in campaign on the higher difficulties.

What do you guys in the rest of the community think?
Also, sorry if I sounded vague with the suggestions above. Just literally listing what's off the top of my head after reading the blog post. It just seems contradictory to their message with a classic artstyle and spiritual reboot and at the same time removing classic weapons in their entirety.

To 343 Industries (especially the management) and Microsoft : Please, if necessary, delay this game. Do not ask your devs to crunch this game out in 5 months when its not humanely possible. I much rather have a complete game, with features and weapons that are staple of the Halo franchise. Admittingly, graphics aren't everything for me and I'm not expecting an award-winning level of graphics and I get they can be improved somewhat between now and launch but that being said, the game definitely needs to look better.

Look at your past work, Halo 4 might not have had the best art style and Infinite's definitely looks better but graphically, you can't deny that game looked good. I get that Halo Infinite is coming on Xbox One (another mistake in my opinion, Xbox One X maybe but not day one) but again when a 360 game looks better than Infinite, something has definitely gone wrong.

The more I read that blog post, the more I feel that people like myself who tried to stay optimistic and positive were naive and the more the critics are being proved right.
My hope is that they kind of did it like Halo 5: over time, they'll release updates with new weapons/features/etc. I do agree that some classic weapons should make a return in the campaign for Infinite. Since they said it was going to be a 10-year-game (or something like that), I think they'll continue monitoring player feedback. One of my disappointments was after reading their latest Community Update here, they mentioned the build was weeks old, not months old like everyone kept saying.

Halo 4 had pretty darn good graphics (especially the cutscenes), even for a 360 game. Halo 5's graphics were all right too. However, they really need to bring back some classic weapons, continue updating the game's graphics, and sincerely commit to that 10-year-plan. I want them to eventually fix the remaining bugs in MCC/HW2 as well.
The comfirmation that they removed the classic weapons definitely lessened my hope for the game. I'm honestly not too excited for the game any more.

I'll still give it a try on gamepass, but I'm no longer expecting anything great.
The comfirmation that they removed the classic weapons definitely lessened my hope for the game. I'm honestly not too excited for the game any more.

I'll still give it a try on gamepass, but I'm no longer expecting anything great.
I'm going to try it on gamepass a couple months after launch.
With what you said about the sidekick and magnum it would make the sidekick obsolete especially in multiplayer due to it having better damage and zoom plus making the sidekick redundant if you spawn with the magnum. As for the bulldog same thing why have two guns that do the same thing but one's obviously better than the other in multiplayer because a shotgun is usually used by people holding a door way or defending a objective the classic shotgun is what everyone is obviously going to pick since it's a back pocket weapon used in that situation not something you constantly reload in a firefight especially against flood when 6 shots are more powerful than a drum mag. Moving on to then removing the classic weapons, they probably did it to replace it with guns that make better since, would you rather have a shotgun you have to individually load shell by shell or one that you can reload faster by using a drum mag design (which is used more often now with a drum mag or regular magazine) and fire more ammunition before having to reload. As for the sidekick I agree with you since it's a classic in Halo that makes since. Hopefully they add the classics in updates like Halo 5 did. As for graphics that's usually around the last thing worked on heavily so they can get gameplay bugs and asset work out of the way and 4 months should hopefully be enough I just hope for the sake of Halo and it's community that infinite will have a great launch because if it pulls a H5 launch Halo will probably die so if they choose to delay I'm fine with that.
From reading the article, it sounds like they are pretty much following the same path H5 did, they will be introducing new weapons post launch so it is possible we see the return of the magnum and classic shotty. However it is surprising that they chose to go with this even after the whole Halo 5 rocket launcher fiasco. Is what it is, hope they add them soon though.
Not sure why they would skip out on the pistol of all weapons. It's basically just as iconic as the AR. The weeks and not months part has me concerned indeed. Don't get me started on the shotty. I like the bulldog but hopefully bring these guns back in future updates. The green lights would def improve the sidekick for me.
It’s like when the new guy comes to your job and feels like he has to change a bunch of stuff to feel like he’s doing something
My hope is that they kind of did it like Halo 5: over time, they'll release updates with new weapons/features/etc. I do agree that some classic weapons should make a return in the campaign for Infinite. Since they said it was going to be a 10-year-game (or something like that), I think they'll continue monitoring player feedback. One of my disappointments was after reading their latest Community Update here, they mentioned the build was weeks old, not months old like everyone kept saying.

Halo 4 had pretty darn good graphics (especially the cutscenes), even for a 360 game. Halo 5's graphics were all right too. However, they really need to bring back some classic weapons, continue updating the game's graphics, and sincerely commit to that 10-year-plan. I want them to eventually fix the remaining bugs in MCC/HW2 as well.
I mean I hate to sound like an apologist but I don't play Halo for graphics. Whilst I agree the graphics do need to look improve and also they need to reduce stuff like pop in, I'm not expecting them to look like Horizon Zero Dawn or something. I think a major reason the graphics have received such backlash is due in no small part due to Microsoft marketing the Series X as the ' world's most powerful console' and then the first thing you see during the gameplay showcase are those sort of graphics, it just gives a bad first impression. I personally don't regard Infinite as a next-gen Halo game (though it should be in my opinion), for me it's just an Xbox One game with Series X enhancements (hopefully).

That said I don't see why both weapons can't be in the game unless they were behind schedule and they had to choose which one to (at this point, I'm hoping temporarily) axe from the game. To be honest, I rather liked some of the REQ weapons for Halo 5 and after the original SPNKR was added back, I think the Halo 5 rocket launcher, especially some of the REQ variants were really cool and interesting (especially Ad Victoriam where you could guide the rockets manually).

I feel like I've been one of the luckier ones when it comes to MCC as I haven't really experienced too many bugs though then again I don't play multiplayer too much as I much prefer PvE but I haven't had issues with the challenges not completing etc as some others have been saying.
They’re doing it to make their live-service content seem valuable when they eventually decide to add classic weapons back in. They know people want them, so they’re using the ‘iconic’ stuff to create artificial hype, which in turn make naive Halo fans think it’s a great update.
With what you said about the sidekick and magnum it would make the sidekick obsolete especially in multiplayer due to it having better damage and zoom plus making the sidekick redundant if you spawn with the magnum. As for the bulldog same thing why have two guns that do the same thing but one's obviously better than the other in multiplayer because a shotgun is usually used by people holding a door way or defending a objective the classic shotgun is what everyone is obviously going to pick since it's a back pocket weapon used in that situation not something you constantly reload in a firefight especially against flood when 6 shots are more powerful than a drum mag. Moving on to then removing the classic weapons, they probably did it to replace it with guns that make better since, would you rather have a shotgun you have to individually load shell by shell or one that you can reload faster by using a drum mag design (which is used more often now with a drum mag or regular magazine) and fire more ammunition before having to reload. As for the sidekick I agree with you since it's a classic in Halo that makes since. Hopefully they add the classics in updates like Halo 5 did. As for graphics that's usually around the last thing worked on heavily so they can get gameplay bugs and asset work out of the way and 4 months should hopefully be enough I just hope for the sake of Halo and it's community that infinite will have a great launch because if it pulls a H5 launch Halo will probably die so if they choose to delay I'm fine with that.
I guess that's probably why they removed them in the first place as they didn't want redundancies in the sandbox. At the very least though, I feel the classic magnum could be a skin (I can't remember who I saw on YouTube but I saw a comparison of how close the CE magnum in Halo 5 was to the original and it was essentially a reskin of the Halo 5 pistol but tbh I don't mind). Like I get 343 wants to make their mark on Halo and not live in Bungie's shadow but like I said, even adding lights for sights would make it ' more Halo'.

I was watching a stream from Favyn earlier today and whilst I don't agree with everything he says, he did have an interesting idea regarding infection and the new Bulldog (which is my issue with the Bulldog from a gameplay perspective). Essentially, based on what we saw with the Bulldog, he argued (and I am inclined to agree) that the Bulldog seems to have too fast a fire rate as well as range that the infected would be at a huge disadvantage that to balance it, he proposed they all get equipped with grappleshots.

My first Halo game was Halo 2 so I wasn't as upset about the pistol (though the lights definitely could be added like I said) but I will miss the OG pump sound and animation. I felt there was a whole risk and reward sort of thing, especially against the energy sword:
  • Fire early but you may be too far and not get the kill.
  • Risk waiting a little closer but then get lunged at.
I'm hoping they cheaped out on graphics on the demo because they were concerned with ensuring all the core features were present like Forge, Multiplayer (with all game modes and maps) rather than have a super well polished (I guess baked is better) slice of the cake.

I want to stay optimistic, I really do. As I said in my original post, I've been on the more optimistic side of the Halo community when it comes to 343. I absolutely loved Halo 4's campaign (though I do miss some of the open sections from Bungie's Halo, particularly Halo 3) and I quite liked Halo 5's multiplayer and the Forge in that game has spawned some amazing custom games.

I am also neutral on things like sprint. Would I prefer it out of regular arena multiplayer? Of course! But do I mind it in campaign or maybe possibly Big Team Battle or larger scale game modes. Absolutely not. And I much rather have it as a core ability than an armour ability in Reach as for me, I felt there was almost no reason to use any armour ability than sprint in Reach other than maybe jetpack as you just gave up so much mobility.

However, on things like this, the messaging from 343 seems really conflicting. Like building on Halo's legacy sandbox but at the same time removing pieces of that legacy.

Like others have said, I also am currently subscribed to Gamepass so I don't really have any reason not to check it out. I'll save my final judgement for when it launches...
CrazeTurk wrote:
They’re doing it to make their live-service content seem valuable when they eventually decide to add classic weapons back in. They know people want them, so they’re using the ‘iconic’ stuff to create artificial hype, which in turn make naive Halo fans think it’s a great update.
The thing is though, 343 has had some great weapons such as the stick detonator. Doing this again just tells me that the game should have been delayed as it stuff that could have been added at launch.

It also takes away resources and developer time from things like say campaign DLC/expansions or some really ambitious game modes or maybe even adding AI to custom games (for hopeless people like myself or just for practice or no stress ;) ).

Like a lot of people have been raising the 'Please don't be a Destiny' concern and this just again proves them right.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not against adding weapons in the future. I'm just thinking that weapons that have been there since the beginning for almost 20 years shouldn't be missing.

Let me give an analogy which some people have been raising.
Ubisoft Open World Games: Quantity Rockstar: Quality (well there's a lot to do as well but its not (as) repetitive or it doesn't feel it )

Halo Infinite needs to follow the quality over quantity mindset. I much rather have fewer bigger ambitious updates than little updates essentially adding stuff that should have been there at launch. But that's my opinion so make of it what you will.
It seems like so they can be added as post launch content. I'm not a fan of them going with the H5 route and expanding the sandbox drastically post launch. The classic weapons and what we come to expect from Halo should be there day one.
I am sad to hear the classic pistol and shotgun won’t make it into the game. It’s like the H5 rocket issue all over again. I like the new pistol and shotgun, but I would have preferred them to compliment the classics instead of replacing them. Maybe the classics will get added into the multiplayer later similar to the SPNKR in H5
The comfirmation that they removed the classic weapons definitely lessened my hope for the game. I'm honestly not too excited for the game any more.

I'll still give it a try on gamepass, but I'm no longer expecting anything great.
I'm going to try it on gamepass a couple months after launch.
I mean with gamepass you can download at launch see what you think they uninstall and play a few months later.
My hope is that they kind of did it like Halo 5: over time, they'll release updates with new weapons/features/etc. I do agree that some classic weapons should make a return in the campaign for Infinite. Since they said it was going to be a 10-year-game (or something like that), I think they'll continue monitoring player feedback. One of my disappointments was after reading their latest Community Update here, they mentioned the build was weeks old, not months old like everyone kept saying.

Halo 4 had pretty darn good graphics (especially the cutscenes), even for a 360 game. Halo 5's graphics were all right too. However, they really need to bring back some classic weapons, continue updating the game's graphics, and sincerely commit to that 10-year-plan. I want them to eventually fix the remaining bugs in MCC/HW2 as well.
That probably will happen. But we shouldn't have to wait for future updates for weapons that are dare I say iconic and definitely classic.
I find it hilarious that 343 didnt learn from the SPNKR issue in halo 5.
With what you said about the sidekick and magnum it would make the sidekick obsolete especially in multiplayer due to it having better damage and zoom plus making the sidekick redundant if you spawn with the magnum. As for the bulldog same thing why have two guns that do the same thing but one's obviously better than the other in multiplayer because a shotgun is usually used by people holding a door way or defending a objective the classic shotgun is what everyone is obviously going to pick since it's a back pocket weapon used in that situation not something you constantly reload in a firefight especially against flood when 6 shots are more powerful than a drum mag. Moving on to then removing the classic weapons, they probably did it to replace it with guns that make better since, would you rather have a shotgun you have to individually load shell by shell or one that you can reload faster by using a drum mag design (which is used more often now with a drum mag or regular magazine) and fire more ammunition before having to reload. As for the sidekick I agree with you since it's a classic in Halo that makes since. Hopefully they add the classics in updates like Halo 5 did. As for graphics that's usually around the last thing worked on heavily so they can get gameplay bugs and asset work out of the way and 4 months should hopefully be enough I just hope for the sake of Halo and it's community that infinite will have a great launch because if it pulls a H5 launch Halo will probably die so if they choose to delay I'm fine with that.
the sidekick works like the gunfighter magnum. it can coexist. similarly, the bulldog is weaker but has more range, it is closer to a primary weapon. the classic shotgun needs timing for shots, but is stronger, it is a special weapon and can coexist.

343 should definetly patch both the magnum and tactical shotgun in, as both are essential halo weapons. they should be included in the campaign to. just give it to some marines or throw it on the map somewhere.

i fear that 343 also cut the teased plasma rifle and the other iconic weapons from campaign. halo without the iconic halo SANDBOX is not a full halo game.
I think the weapons should be in the game at launch (at the very least they provide variety as well as keep the older fans happy who have been around since the beginning).

My biggest concern with adding them later is they won't be added in campaign (the lack of campaign expansions or DLC in general seems silly given this is the Halo game for the next 10 years). If they do add them down the line, they could swap out some of the bulldog and sidekick spawns with the classic variants and just keep both in the campaign.

I'm not a game dev, but I can't imagine that being too hard to do.
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