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Air is OP - Dedicated Thread

OP Viper Skills

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Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
Thank you for putting this together, Viper. Will be nice to keep this all in one spot, rather than having a new post daily.

Something I want to stress; evidence or proof, of some sort, is very important in situations like this. So, for either side of the argument, please, when trying to formulate an argument; try to provide evidence of your claim. If you feel Air is OP, show us it being OP; show us how it destroyed your 120 pop army of AA. And vice versa. Bringing forth evidence not only makes your point stronger, but helps identify any problems (or lack there off), and overall improve the game.

Look forward to the discussion.
If someone has 40 pop AA and the rest is core vehicles, you can fight air rather easily. With the recent buff to hogs, this really helps them fight air and lets not forget CT marines are super strong for being half the cost AND buildable at T1. Reavers are slow as they can be but keep 10-15 pop along with base defenses and you can really prevent a push while harassing. AA is also notoriously cost effective and costs both power and supplies to make them quick counters to air. The only problem with air is it does too much for dodging AA units but air still expensive so you can usually prevent this from happening with hit and run and picking off their eco. The T3 upgrade for Hornets is a bit too effective against everything including AA. Also, Sentinels are still OP when massed but thats about it.
If someone has 40 pop AA and the rest is core vehicles, you can fight air rather easily. With the recent buff to hogs, this really helps them fight air and lets not forget CT marines are super strong for being half the cost AND buildable at T1. Reavers are slow as they can be but keep 10-15 pop along with base defenses and you can really prevent a push while harassing. AA is also notoriously cost effective and costs both power and supplies to make them quick counters to air. The only problem with air is it does too much for dodging AA units but air still expensive so you can usually prevent this from happening with hit and run and picking off their eco. The T3 upgrade for Hornets is a bit too effective against everything including AA. Also, Sentinels are still OP when massed but thats about it.
Good points. Thanks for the advice
Thank you for putting this together, Viper. Will be nice to keep this all in one spot, rather than having a new post daily.

Something I want to stress; evidence or proof, of some sort, is very important in situations like this. So, for either side of the argument, please, when trying to formulate an argument; try to provide evidence of your claim. If you feel Air is OP, show us it being OP; show us how it destroyed your 120 pop army of AA. And vice versa. Bringing forth evidence not only makes your point stronger, but helps identify any problems (or lack there off), and overall improve the game.

Look forward to the discussion.
How does a person go about this ? I can record game clips but how can you tell what tier the units are? Maybe a custom game with testing?
While I like air where it is, there has been something I have been wondering with this topic. A while back I recall it was commented that AA can only target one air unit at a time. This was something hard-coded in and couldn't be changed. As a compromise, would it be possible to expand the damage radius of rockets hitting an air unit to other air units? An example being the vampire in Halo Wars 1 where it's ability allowed it to damage the enemy unit and when the enemy unit blew up it damaged the nearby air units.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
While I like air where it is, there has been something I have been wondering with this topic. A while back I recall it was commented that AA can only target one air unit at a time. This was something hard-coded in and couldn't be changed. As a compromise, would it be possible to expand the damage radius of rockets hitting an air unit to other air units? An example being the vampire in Halo Wars 1 where it's ability allowed it to damage the enemy unit and when the enemy unit blew up it damaged the nearby air units.
Units don't do explosion damage, but AA does do slight AoE damage.
Thank you for putting this together, Viper. Will be nice to keep this all in one spot, rather than having a new post daily.

Something I want to stress; evidence or proof, of some sort, is very important in situations like this. So, for either side of the argument, please, when trying to formulate an argument; try to provide evidence of your claim. If you feel Air is OP, show us it being OP; show us how it destroyed your 120 pop army of AA. And vice versa. Bringing forth evidence not only makes your point stronger, but helps identify any problems (or lack there off), and overall improve the game.

Look forward to the discussion.
How does a person go about this ? I can record game clips but how can you tell what tier the units are? Maybe a custom game with testing?
Testing, game clips, game recordings, etc. Something is better than nothing. If one is to claim air is OP (or UP) they need something more than anecdotal evidence.

Unit upgrade level can be determined from the unit health bars (global upgrades increase HP).
Ado Ulamee wrote:
While I like air where it is, there has been something I have been wondering with this topic. A while back I recall it was commented that AA can only target one air unit at a time. This was something hard-coded in and couldn't be changed. As a compromise, would it be possible to expand the damage radius of rockets hitting an air unit to other air units? An example being the vampire in Halo Wars 1 where it's ability allowed it to damage the enemy unit and when the enemy unit blew up it damaged the nearby air units.
Units don't do explosion damage, but AA does do slight AoE damage.
Thank you, I met the AOE damage. Would you think it could be expanded any to include damaging other units?
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
Thanks for putting the thread together. I'll address what I've been seeing

I can scout / anticipate air early yet it doesn't seem to matter much. No matter how many wolves with marines I put together I'm stuck just constantly replacing the units until I get out teched/out populated. Seems like a waste of time in any lengthy 3v3 war. That's just facing off mostly vs the air onslaught, goes downhill pretty quick if your counter units get countered themselves. All they can do is turn and get shot in the -Yoink- while they attempt a retreat. Air seems to do alright against all unit compositions and can evacuate any battles they choose to; not to mention leader powers being tough / very hit or miss against air.

Another point I have is late game(after 15-20min) it's very tough to take down bases with a fleet of wolverines ( I have tried mixing in hellbringers but they don't survive) I'm sure it's possible and all varies on who is in the game but just wanted to share how the struggle for myself has gone lately.

Maybe a few tweaks could help out the balance of team games? Not sure how to avoid disrrupting 1v1 gameplay which I hear is in a better place.

Could ramping the power cost of the the tier 3 air upgrade help?

Thanks for the feedback
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
Thanks for putting the thread together. I'll address what I've been seeing

I can scout / anticipate air early yet it doesn't seem to matter much. No matter how many wolves with marines I put together I'm stuck just constantly replacing the units until I get out teched/out populated. Seems like a waste of time in any lengthy 3v3 war. That's just facing off mostly vs the air onslaught, goes downhill pretty quick if your counter units get countered themselves. All they can do is turn and get shot in the -Yoink- while they attempt a retreat. Air seems to do alright against all unit compositions and can evacuate any battles they choose to; not to mention leader powers being tough / very hit or miss against air.

Another point I have is late game(after 15-20min) it's very tough to take down bases with a fleet of wolverines ( I have tried mixing in hellbringers but they don't survive) I'm sure it's possible and all varies on who is in the game but just wanted to share how the struggle for myself has gone lately.

Maybe a few tweaks could help out the balance of team games? Not sure how to avoid disrrupting 1v1 gameplay which I hear is in a better place.

Could ramping the power cost of the the tier 3 air upgrade help?

Thanks for the feedback
It's not so much the unit-unit interactions that give air an advantage in 3v3 so much as it is map size and positioning. In 1v1 positioning is almost binary, enemy side of the map or your side of the map. Besides some mini-bases/nodes, or perhaps a couple of bases on some maps in particular, there is a very limited number of places only 2 armies can be. In 3v3 things get really crazy. In 1v1 there are 2 armies and ~6 or 7 "positions." In 3v3 there are 6 armies and ~12-15 "positions." If you know anything about combinations/permutations you realize that there is a massive exponential increase in potential positioning because of this (I could write out, by hand, all the possible general positions in 1v1 in a short time, but it would take me a whole day if not more to write out all the 3v3 ones). The much larger size of the maps means positioning is incredibly important. In 1v1 an army of hogs/grizzlies with ample AA could generally make it to most bases on your side of the map from any other base of yours on said side in a reasonable timeframe to respond. In 3v3 the same is not true, the player on the left side, and sometimes the center, can just be way too out of position to aide in defense. Air just shifts its positioning much more rapidly which really gives it a massive advantage when there are literally orders of magnitude more sets of positions.

Population also plays into things as well. In 1v1 there is no cover for you to mass air against an opponent applying pressure. Nearly everyone opens with a decent amount of infantry, which will utterly destroy your early air production. If you sit back and mass it then you give them the map and you will just be outproduced. That's why you generally never see a quick tech to air in high level 1v1s, or even a transition into it right out of a heavy T1 opener. In 3v3 it is a lot easier for 2 teammates to provide cover for the third to tech right into air. This doesn't always work, particularly at the high level among coordinated teams, but it works much easier than in 1v1. The larger map means that even a few air units can be used to skirt around armies and pick at softer targets while they build numbers.

The best trick I've found against air in teams is to force their positioning. If you take the fight to them it forces them to engage your army. This works a lot better earlier in the game as well. You really have to keep the pressure on, as while building mass air their economy is bottomed out while producing fairly fragile units. Go for their early expos and minis particularly, things harder to defend and making it much harder for them to afford a double pump on air. Regardless UNSC is always at a disadvantage against air swarms. Wolverines are more fragile and less agile than Reavers, making them extremely vulnerable to leader powers among other things. AA turrets are really strong, but 4 won't prevent a mass air swarm from focusing a base while a banished shield gives you precious time to get into position and the cloak forces engineers, slowing the air swarm speed (and which can be focused down to eliminate the threat).
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
Thanks for putting the thread together. I'll address what I've been seeing

I can scout / anticipate air early yet it doesn't seem to matter much. No matter how many wolves with marines I put together I'm stuck just constantly replacing the units until I get out teched/out populated. Seems like a waste of time in any lengthy 3v3 war. That's just facing off mostly vs the air onslaught, goes downhill pretty quick if your counter units get countered themselves. All they can do is turn and get shot in the -Yoink- while they attempt a retreat. Air seems to do alright against all unit compositions and can evacuate any battles they choose to; not to mention leader powers being tough / very hit or miss against air.

Another point I have is late game(after 15-20min) it's very tough to take down bases with a fleet of wolverines ( I have tried mixing in hellbringers but they don't survive) I'm sure it's possible and all varies on who is in the game but just wanted to share how the struggle for myself has gone lately.

Maybe a few tweaks could help out the balance of team games? Not sure how to avoid disrrupting 1v1 gameplay which I hear is in a better place.

Could ramping the power cost of the the tier 3 air upgrade help?

Thanks for the feedback
It's not so much the unit-unit interactions that give air an advantage in 3v3 so much as it is map size and positioning. In 1v1 positioning is almost binary, enemy side of the map or your side of the map. Besides some mini-bases/nodes, or perhaps a couple of bases on some maps in particular, there is a very limited number of places only 2 armies can be. In 3v3 things get really crazy. In 1v1 there are 2 armies and ~6 or 7 "positions." In 3v3 there are 6 armies and ~12-15 "positions." If you know anything about combinations/permutations you realize that there is a massive exponential increase in potential positioning because of this (I could write out, by hand, all the possible general positions in 1v1 in a short time, but it would take me a whole day if not more to write out all the 3v3 ones). The much larger size of the maps means positioning is incredibly important. In 1v1 an army of hogs/grizzlies with ample AA could generally make it to most bases on your side of the map from any other base of yours on said side in a reasonable timeframe to respond. In 3v3 the same is not true, the player on the left side, and sometimes the center, can just be way too out of position to aide in defense. Air just shifts its positioning much more rapidly which really gives it a massive advantage when there are literally orders of magnitude more sets of positions.

Population also plays into things as well. In 1v1 there is no cover for you to mass air against an opponent applying pressure. Nearly everyone opens with a decent amount of infantry, which will utterly destroy your early air production. If you sit back and mass it then you give them the map and you will just be outproduced. That's why you generally never see a quick tech to air in high level 1v1s, or even a transition into it right out of a heavy T1 opener. In 3v3 it is a lot easier for 2 teammates to provide cover for the third to tech right into air. This doesn't always work, particularly at the high level among coordinated teams, but it works much easier than in 1v1. The larger map means that even a few air units can be used to skirt around armies and pick at softer targets while they build numbers.

The best trick I've found against air in teams is to force their positioning. If you take the fight to them it forces them to engage your army. This works a lot better earlier in the game as well. You really have to keep the pressure on, as while building mass air their economy is bottomed out while producing fairly fragile units. Go for their early expos and minis particularly, things harder to defend and making it much harder for them to afford a double pump on air. Regardless UNSC is always at a disadvantage against air swarms. Wolverines are more fragile and less agile than Reavers, making them extremely vulnerable to leader powers among other things. AA turrets are really strong, but 4 won't prevent a mass air swarm from focusing a base while a banished shield gives you precious time to get into position and the cloak forces engineers, slowing the air swarm speed (and which can be focused down to eliminate the threat).
To be fair, the game should not balenced around teams. Wolferines are not too bad as many make them out to be either. They can kite air units as well as chase respectfully while dodging LPs due to their speed.
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
To be fair, the game should not balenced around teams. Wolferines are not too bad as many make them out to be either. They can kite air units as well as chase respectfully while dodging LPs due to their speed.
Wolverines can no longer kite air units as before and chase as before. Issue 1: Mobility
EiTeNeR wrote:
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
To be fair, the game should not balenced around teams. Wolferines are not too bad as many make them out to be either. They can kite air units as well as chase respectfully while dodging LPs due to their speed.
Wolverines can no longer kite air units as before and chase as before. Issue 1: Mobility
Air is faster but wolfs can still kite them log enough before a mass ball of air units fly above them which is more less than letting them get picked off. Wolfs still have further shooting range too which helps withtheir kiting.
Air is a necessity to continue breathing and thus, living.

I agree air is OP.
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
I only play halo wars 2 now and then so I'm out of the loop but there are still complaints about Op air?
My main issue is that air forces you to build useless counter units that aren't very good at killing it, and ruins your ability to push afterwards. Giving wolverines their volley ability back would be a good start. All in all I believe air does too much damage considering how mobile they are and how cheap they are to replace.
Silver ww wrote:
My main issue is that air forces you to build useless counter units that aren't very good at killing it, and ruins your ability to push afterwards. Giving wolverines their volley ability back would be a good start. All in all I believe air does too much damage considering how mobile they are and how cheap they are to replace.
AA is good at killing air, even the generally weaker wolferine. In fact, AA is borderline OP for how cheap, cost effective, and quick to build. There is a reason this Y ability never transfered from HW1 and giving Wolfs their Barrage back will kill the current meta like Hunters and Cyclopes used to be Anti-Ground.
Air is a necessity to continue breathing and thus, living.

I agree air is OP.
I dont care if 99% of the population says air is OP or even a Moderator says it's so and definitely will NEVER listen to someone say "air is OP" when they never played this game in their life. No disrespect of course but AA does a very good for it's job and air does not. People such as Nakamura and THEWALL766 have proven this many times.
Air is a necessity to continue breathing and thus, living.

I agree air is OP.
I dont care if 99% of the population says air is OP or even a Moderator says it's so and definitely will NEVER listen to someone say "air is OP" when they never played this game in their life. No disrespect of course but AA does a very good for it's job and air does not. People such as Nakamura and THEWALL766 have proven this many times.
Dude, she’s making a joke.
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