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Air is OP - Dedicated Thread

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Air is a necessity to continue breathing and thus, living.

I agree air is OP.
I dont care if 99% of the population says air is OP or even a Moderator says it's so and definitely will NEVER listen to someone say "air is OP" when they never played this game in their life. No disrespect of course but AA does a very good for it's job and air does not. People such as Nakamura and THEWALL766 have proven this many times.
Woooosh
Thats the sound of mass air going over your base.
Woosh BANG. Thats the sound of my AA beating your army.
Oh look the joke has flown off the map.
Air is a necessity to continue breathing and thus, living.

I agree air is OP.
I dont care if 99% of the population says air is OP or even a Moderator says it's so and definitely will NEVER listen to someone say "air is OP" when they never played this game in their life. No disrespect of course but AA does a very good for it's job and air does not. People such as Nakamura and THEWALL766 have proven this many times.
Woooosh
Thats the sound of mass air going over your base.
Woosh BANG. Thats the sound of my AA beating your army.
Oh look the joke has flown off the map.
Wooooooosh goes the Recon Training Condor
ZAP goes my army.
Air is a necessity to continue breathing and thus, living.

I agree air is OP.
I dont care if 99% of the population says air is OP or even a Moderator says it's so and definitely will NEVER listen to someone say "air is OP" when they never played this game in their life. No disrespect of course but AA does a very good for it's job and air does not. People such as Nakamura and THEWALL766 have proven this many times.
Woooosh
Thats the sound of mass air going over your base.
Woosh BANG. Thats the sound of my AA beating your army.
Oh look the joke has flown off the map.
Wooooooosh goes the Recon Training Condor
ZAP goes my army.
Recon training only effects infantry and vehicles, not aircraft/condors
Now I don't know if you guys just messing around or being serious hope is the first cuz Misa confuzzle
Air is a necessity to continue breathing and thus, living.

I agree air is OP.
I dont care if 99% of the population says air is OP or even a Moderator says it's so and definitely will NEVER listen to someone say "air is OP" when they never played this game in their life. No disrespect of course but AA does a very good for it's job and air does not. People such as Nakamura and THEWALL766 have proven this many times.
Woooosh
Thats the sound of mass air going over your base.
Woosh BANG. Thats the sound of my AA beating your army.
Oh look the joke has flown off the map.
Wooooooosh goes the Recon Training Condor
ZAP goes my army.
Recon training only effects infantry and vehicles, not aircraft/condors
coulda sworn that was the case
you mean Condors just have that much range period? christ allmighty
Yep, Condor range is ridiculous; I've used it as pseudo artillery while more expendable things go push the front line. If you can light up an area with a rabbit or something, the condor can hit it from out of most units' line of sight (the exception being high ground).
so thats why -Yoinking!- condors are annoying didnt realize their range was christ almighty
Without actually witnessing the game it's incredibly difficult to offer advice, as I didn't see exactly what happened. However, in any situation where the enemy team has multiple armies of the same unit time (Banshees, Warthogs, Marauders, etc), you need help from your teammates(s), or you have to go full pop counter units. If you're facing 240 pop of Warthogs (two 120 armies), and your teammate isn't helping counter, you're going to run into the exact same issues. This isn't an air exclusive issue.
As for what you should have done, again, it's tricky without seeing what happened, but here's what I would have done, considering the given information. Depending on what your leaders were and what the map was, I would have one of us play vehicles (core/AA), while having the other go straight core infantry (with some healers). This gives you more than enough firepower to win engagements and be able to push after.
what are you talking about? In the history of 2v2 on hw2 at no point has a team made a combined 240 pop of the same unit.
Okay, the fact that an almost full pop of anti air cant take out a full pop of air with engineers or nightingales is terrible.
The developers keep buffing and nerfing,
and never seems to solve the problem.

I think its because the anti-air ALWAYS focus fire.
No matter what. So the end result is about 80% of the missiles missing their target completely because it died before the others could get there.
I want the choice to focus fire, not for it to be made for me...It's a consistent loss unless I spread out my anti air S I G N I F I C A N T L Y, hit and run, or micromanage every single anti-air to every banshee.

tl;dr: Anti air should just aim at any air unit or that they can only have 3 anti aimed at a unit at one time unless told otherwise by actively selecting an enemy.please.

anti air is hurtin' real bad.
Okay, the fact that an almost full pop of anti air cant take out a full pop of air with engineers or nightingales is terrible.
The developers keep buffing and nerfing,
and never seems to solve the problem.

I think its because the anti-air ALWAYS focus fire.
No matter what. So the end result is about 80% of the missiles missing their target completely because it died before the others could get there.
I want the choice to focus fire, not for it to be made for me...It's a consistent loss unless I spread out my anti air S I G N I F I C A N T L Y, hit and run, or micromanage every single anti-air to every banshee.

tl;dr: Anti air should just aim at any air unit or that they can only have 3 anti aimed at a unit at one time unless told otherwise by actively selecting an enemy.please.

anti air is hurtin' real bad.
you need to micro EVERY AA to beat Banshees? Banshees suck bro. Wolfs need a buff or two but they still easily compete against Banshees, Deci can be a frivolous problem for them though with Warlord and Deci with mass Banshees.
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
There is an argument about air that is so determined to focus on one set scenario the conversation is clouded. Using one type of unit 80/80 is cheap. Period. Doesn’t matter what unit. The game and its developers need to decide on who their target market is, Team play or 1 v 1 because all the changes done impact every player that comes along. There is no scenario acceptable anywhere that a fleet of basic aircraft should be able to take down a base with a sentry tower and three anti aircraft turrets. As soon as the base upgrade can accept turrets that 80/80 aircraft tactic should be effectively countered with turrets. Should there be damage from the attack absolutely but under no realistic circumstances will that base fall to just aircraft. Wolverines power cost has neutralized the counters effectiveness. All the “Elite” players can talk garbage about me being unable to hang or learn. Whatever. Last count I could find for numbers of players visiting HW2 was 30,000 players per week. That’s about 4300 players per day. 178 players per hour....in the whole world only 178/hour :( And of those 178 per hour how many are repeat players using “ghosts”? This message board shows only the ultra hardcore will stick around to play. New people wiped out by aircraft won’t come back to play. You’ll have exactly the game you envision, but enjoy playing a very very very small pool of players and forget about HW3....there’s no profit in 30,000 players a week. 343 needs to perhaps open a newbies board and see how to bring new players in....this game should be a cash cow. Someone from 343 contact my old butt and I’d love to map out a profitable route to reinvigorate this game I have tons of ideas.
The game and its developers need to decide on who their target market is, Team play or 1 v 1 because all the changes done impact every player that comes along.
At this moment all balance changes are made to make 1v1 matches more balanced. Not saying the developers are looking to make team games more balanced as well, but this is their route they're taking right now.
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
There is no scenario acceptable anywhere that a fleet of basic aircraft should be able to take down a base with a sentry tower and three anti aircraft turrets. As soon as the base upgrade can accept turrets that 80/80 aircraft tactic should be effectively countered with turrets. Should there be damage from the attack absolutely but under no realistic circumstances will that base fall to just aircraft.
Jup,

Thats true.
Taking out a base should require at least 1-2 artillery units as support or a few tanks.
If full pop air can take out shielded/base with 3 AA turrets then...why build anything else?
AA turrets atm last only few seconds against full pop Air and are technically useless.( but for some odd reason i still build them )
Air needs some kind of disadvantage compared to all the advantages it has.

So far it is the only unit with only "Pro"s and no "Con"s.
Its cheap( cheaper than its counter unit ) - requires no power
Stronger in numbers than any other unit.
Faster than any other unit.
Can use terrain in its advantage.
Has best field of view
Air can take out all minibases before you can react - vehicles can't really do that( on larger maps )
Air can quickly defend against other air units - ground units can't( why build AA if you can build air to counter air ? )
Air avoids most leader powers - e.g ground must deal with devastating mines, infusion pools etc.
Air avoids long range defences, like artillery turrets, well deployed Kodiaks/Blisterbacks, and paviums super arti.

This is just huge advantage.
Raineeger wrote:
Jup,

Thats true.
Taking out a base should require at least 1-2 artillery units as support or a few tanks.
If full pop air can take out shielded/base with 3 AA turrets then...why build anything else?
AA turrets atm last only few seconds against full pop Air and are technically useless.( but for some odd reason i still build them )
Air needs some kind of disadvantage compared to all the advantages it has.

So far it is the only unit with only "Pro"s and no "Con"s.
Its cheap( cheaper than its counter unit ) - requires no power
Stronger in numbers than any other unit.
Faster than any other unit.
Can use terrain in its advantage.
Has best field of view
Air can take out all minibases before you can react - vehicles can't really do that( on larger maps )
Air can quickly defend against other air units - ground units can't( why build AA if you can build air to counter air ? )
Air avoids most leader powers - e.g ground must deal with devastating mines, infusion pools etc.
Air avoids long range defences, like artillery turrets, well deployed Kodiaks/Blisterbacks, and paviums super arti.

This is just huge advantage.
Holy, man.

Turrets are meant to help you on defence, not just wipe out 80 pop while you sit on your hands.

80 pop of Banshees would cost 6,500 blue.

Three AA turrets (UNSC) would cost, what, 900 blue and 900 yellow? In what universe is it okay for something that costs 1,800 resources to beat something that costs four times that.

Should three AV turrets also beat 80 pop or Warthogs? Are we trying to play turret defence here? Turrets are already prolonging games long enough, there is zero reason that turrets need to do that well.

Air has a few positives; it’s mobility and is strength when massed. That’s it.

Air units are near unusable in T2 because they lose to almost everything. They’re sooooooo bad it actually hurts me.
Raineeger wrote:
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
There is no scenario acceptable anywhere that a fleet of basic aircraft should be able to take down a base with a sentry tower and three anti aircraft turrets. As soon as the base upgrade can accept turrets that 80/80 aircraft tactic should be effectively countered with turrets. Should there be damage from the attack absolutely but under no realistic circumstances will that base fall to just aircraft.
Jup,

Thats true.
Taking out a base should require at least 1-2 artillery units as support or a few tanks.
If full pop air can take out shielded/base with 3 AA turrets then...why build anything else?
AA turrets atm last only few seconds against full pop Air and are technically useless.( but for some odd reason i still build them )
Air needs some kind of disadvantage compared to all the advantages it has.

So far it is the only unit with only "Pro"s and no "Con"s.
Its cheap( cheaper than its counter unit ) - requires no power
Stronger in numbers than any other unit.
Faster than any other unit.
Can use terrain in its advantage.
Has best field of view
Air can take out all minibases before you can react - vehicles can't really do that( on larger maps )
Air can quickly defend against other air units - ground units can't( why build AA if you can build air to counter air ? )
Air avoids most leader powers - e.g ground must deal with devastating mines, infusion pools etc.
Air avoids long range defences, like artillery turrets, well deployed Kodiaks/Blisterbacks, and paviums super arti.

This is just huge advantage.
Three AA turrets (UNSC) would cost, what, 900 blue and 900 yellow? In what universe is it okay for something that costs 1,800 resources to beat something that costs four times that.
In our universe.
A simple IED costing less than 100$ can blow up a Main battle tank costing millions.

Also...Its not about beating the 3 AA turrets. If it were, i wouldnt care.
It's about destroying the entire base(which will happen if the AA turrets dont to sh*t), and the cost of an entire base with all the buildings and upgrades is...a lot more, if it happens to be your main base then its a game ender.
Base killers should be T3 air units only - blisterbacks/vultures/condors/
The rest are basically flying machine gun platforms which should be effective only against low armor units, e.g infantry, vehicles and other air( especially t3 air )
You can shoot a machine gun against a tank all day and nothing will happen. Same goes for buildings.
To take down a fortified bunker/building with machine guns will take time...chipping away concrete bit by bit. Lets say its not an efficient way to destroy buildings.
Raineeger wrote:
Raineeger wrote:
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
There is no scenario acceptable anywhere that a fleet of basic aircraft should be able to take down a base with a sentry tower and three anti aircraft turrets. As soon as the base upgrade can accept turrets that 80/80 aircraft tactic should be effectively countered with turrets. Should there be damage from the attack absolutely but under no realistic circumstances will that base fall to just aircraft.
In our universe.
A simple IED costing less than 100$ can blow up a Main battle tank costing millions.

Also...Its not about beating the 3 AA turrets. If it were, i wouldnt care.
It's about destroying the entire base(which will happen if the AA turrets dont to sh*t), and the cost of an entire base with all the buildings and upgrades is...a lot more, if it happens to be your main base then its a game ender.
Base killers should be T3 air units only - blisterbacks/vultures/condors/
The rest are basically flying machine gun platforms which should be effective only against low armor units, e.g infantry, vehicles and other air( especially t3 air )
You can shoot a machine gun against a tank all day and nothing will happen. Same goes for buildings.
To take down a fortified bunker/building with machine guns will take time...chipping away concrete bit by bit. Lets say its not an efficient way to destroy buildings.
A simple IED? Certain weapons not damaging buildings? Brother, this is Halo Wars 2. Realism shouldn’t dictate RTS balancing. Yikes, man. Just yikes.

That right there proves to me you do not possess the game knowledge to discuss this. I’m sorry, I thought I could help, but I cannot. You are beyond helping.
I cant believe this hasnt been solved already after all this time. You dont think air is op? go play some 3v3s and then we will talk. Also air not costing power adds more insult to injury, because you get stuck in t2 building power expensive wolverines and reavers, while you opponents get t3 wingmen and lots of upgrades, thats where the real issue begins. Now youre at tech2 running around the map trying to defend what you can without a single upgrade, and the enemy has a couple air upgrades and logistics to pump even faster. RIP
I still believe air is over powered based on leaders used and artillery. First AA is useless against everything else and cost power and is weak overall, artillery still wrecks AA vehicle, air cost largely zero power unless upgrading or healers bought. Having to purchase AA units leave u at a disadvantage because in order to push u need a ground army and healers so vehicle and air pad needed plus upgrades along the way. Purchasing just 10 AA units 210 a piece 2100 power and 1750 supply banished. Thats tech 3 or base upgrades or vehicle upgrades. Either way i'm forced to play defensively due to costs to build a force that can push and they can get tech 3 upgrades while im still tech 2. People who do air pick leaders like decimus, kisano, ie. leaders whose passives or powers buff these units making counters less effective supporting this strategy. And they dont sit there they harass and limit ur movement and expansion because AA is slow and limited by terrain. Granted not everyone who goes air is great but it is still frustrating when they fly across the map and destroy things in five to 10 seconds. Ive done games where i won vs massed air in 2v2s but mostly by the skin of my teeth which in my opinion shouldn't happen AA should not struggle as it does. Just to mention infantry does not shred air granted if i build full or near full AA or infantry it could win but im left with units that cant attack for anything, artillery and LPs destroy these soft targets as well.

Possible changes to help:
1. Limit effectiveness passives have on massed air.
2. Make air slower and AA faster one or the other or both.
3. Give those who build counter AA more chances, put a power cost to air or further lessen cost of AA. I feel penalized when building AA.
4. Possible range increase of AA. Or have missiles explode like in real life where the missiles dont require contact with aircraft to inflict damage. Simply air burst near target with some amount of splash damage.
5. Further lessen artillery damage to AA.
6. Giving credit to TheWall or others for suggesting the making of a AA air unit as this may prove interesting and more effective. If done it should either match speed of air or surpass it.
7. Again specifically hornets still seem like flying tanks when backed by abilities. Banshees by others account seem literally like glass but I have yet to see a banished leader other decimus who frequents banshees and they seem quite capable. Two things a decimus does rush or build banshees or if not dead by rush then build banshees.

Just one last thing i am incredibly dumb and learned nothing from strategy games that i do not know how to counter or there really exists a problem involving massed air vs AA. To clarify AA kills air. If I build a full army and upgrade it and when LPs are used and when no moves their army. So at what cost does AA really counter air? Quite frankly air seemingly has less disadvantages by far.
The problem is the leaders (like decimus, kisano for example), maps(that support air over ground attacks), economy style(two resources), and AA vs air interactions (missiles missing or overkill and air's focus fire). Right now in order to completely wreck air you need a near or equally large force of AA to do so, avoid LPs near impossible, some how avoid artillery, and push an attack with a diverse army that has more costs than air does. I may also add that air has a limited means of countering=>infantry not so good slow and die by vehicle or artillery limited range, AA countered easily by anything, air vs air not really a counter, whereas AA has multiple counters=>infantry AT, core, artillery, tanks, core vehicles, and heroes. Note i am aware that counter units have limited role but whats the point in system of rock paper scissors when air out performs its counter unit by flying away or going toe to toe when LPs are used?
Raineeger wrote:
Raineeger wrote:
Hello Halo Wars 2 community,

Because it is such a hot topic with strong opinions on both sides, this thread is now the dedicated thread for discussion of air vs. anti-air (or any other unit) interaction. Is air overpowered? Underpowered? Why or why not?

Please keep all discussion of air units confined to this thread.

Thank you
There is no scenario acceptable anywhere that a fleet of basic aircraft should be able to take down a base with a sentry tower and three anti aircraft turrets. As soon as the base upgrade can accept turrets that 80/80 aircraft tactic should be effectively countered with turrets. Should there be damage from the attack absolutely but under no realistic circumstances will that base fall to just aircraft.
In our universe.
A simple IED costing less than 100$ can blow up a Main battle tank costing millions.

Also...Its not about beating the 3 AA turrets. If it were, i wouldnt care.
It's about destroying the entire base(which will happen if the AA turrets dont to sh*t), and the cost of an entire base with all the buildings and upgrades is...a lot more, if it happens to be your main base then its a game ender.
Base killers should be T3 air units only - blisterbacks/vultures/condors/
The rest are basically flying machine gun platforms which should be effective only against low armor units, e.g infantry, vehicles and other air( especially t3 air )
You can shoot a machine gun against a tank all day and nothing will happen. Same goes for buildings.
To take down a fortified bunker/building with machine guns will take time...chipping away concrete bit by bit. Lets say its not an efficient way to destroy buildings.
A simple IED? Certain weapons not damaging buildings? Brother, this is Halo Wars 2. Realism shouldn’t dictate RTS balancing. Yikes, man. Just yikes.

That right there proves to me you do not possess the game knowledge to discuss this. I’m sorry, I thought I could help, but I cannot. You are beyond helping.
Hahah, well looks like you can't handle realistic comments.
You asked quite clearly, "In what universe is it okay for something that costs 1,800 resources to beat something that costs four times that."
as if a price of something means it can't beat a more expensive unit.
Thats the very definition of countering a unit. You build a cheap thing that specializes on taking out specific types of units.
Anti tank weapons cost pennies compared to a tank - but can take out a tank.
AA missile costs pennies compared to Aircraft, yet it can take out a helicopter.
Etc etc.
This applies to games as well, if you haven't noticed.
Having cheap units that can take out expensive ones means you have to play strategically so you don't lose expensive stuff to cheap stuff.
In both real life and in games, unit types and counters will dictate the strategy/plan or at least it should.
If you know the enemy has AA units somewhere, you don't send your air units to destroy those units, you make a strategic move and use ground units,
If you do insist on attacking units/ defenses that are specifically made to attack you then expect to pay a heavy price.
Play some other strategy games and you will see.
Air units usually will take only 1-2 hits from AA before being destroyed...and they are the most expensive units(since they are most capable)
A supreme commander is a good example. A base shielded and defended by a handful AA will wipe out hordes of air units and is practically immune to low tier air units. You need highest tier units to destroy AA. The purpose of this is obvious. To force players to play strategy games strategically. You have to build artillery to siege the base, take down the shield and AA, then swoop in with air and finish it off.
You can see the same thing in Wargame: Red Dragon RTS.
A cheap 50pt AA unit can take out multiple high tier fighters costing 200 each.
If the opponent is especially unlucky, he may run into AA with a swarm of helicopters and lose 4-5, each costing 160pts.
This means a 50 pt unit can take out 640 pts worth of units(10 x more than its cost)
Players know this, and they dont go head to head with AA using air. They use artillery or tanks to take out AA, then move in with air to take out tanks.
If they cant take out the AA, then they fly around it.

Noone expects HW2 to be realistic...thats obvious.
If you didn't understand my point then it is you who is beyond help.
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