Forums / Games / Halo Wars 2

Air is still viable as a single unit balance issue

OP GeneralD3NCH

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I invite you to watch this video from team respawn which is evidence of my factual statements of metrics in game such as the cost of units which doesn't need evidence its there in game at the vehicle and air production buildings respectively.

Some things to bare in mind the reaver army barely scrapes a win against the banshees and there is little to no micro management on both sides they let the AI do the targeting this is the thing with the statements from many about testing its not testing its in a controlled environment.

When a full pop of air attacks a force with anti air a skilled player will allways focus down the AA units first if the AA opposition does this they will likely overkill a single target and lose overall damage output on the Air so there's that to take into consideration.

Further more the cost of the AA vs the air is one of the biggest imbalances let's do the math as evidence has been requested so many times to detract from the truth of the argument and that is the economy hit and utility of Air units not the fact that some people believe this post to be a complaints post regarding if you build air you win everytime which is NOT what I have said at any point so anyway the maths.

Reavers:
Supply's: 175 x 14 = 2450 Supplys
Power: 225 × 14 = 3150 Power
Tech 2: 1000 Power

Banshees:
Supplys: 275 × 30 = 8250
Tech 2: 1000 Power

Let's break down some hard truths here. Yes the banshees cost 3 times as much supply's as the reavers but supply's are easy to amass power is most certainly not comparable in economy terms to supply's.

It will cost you around 2000 supply's and 1000 power to build 3 generators and upgrade them to be any where near close enough to being able to afford that much anti air in the first place and that's before the costs to reach tech 2 in the first place.
The banshees on the other hand require much less investment to get up and running and thier return on investment is much much higher so so far 1-0 to the Air spammer

This is without taking into consideration the additional cost to the reaver army for the shroud, locusts, marauders and grunts ect which I estimate to be another 500-1000 Power and around 2000-3000 supply's based on the footage in the video.
This brings the total investment to bring down a full pop of banshees to a whopping.
7450 Supply's
AND
6150 Power

So with that being said from this calculation we can deduce that Air has beaten its counter not only in economy but in performance as well whilst also knowing that from the testing in the video little to no micro management was used to counter the AA from the opposistion.

And we are only looking at banshees a pack of hornets would be even more of an overkill on the AA at only a slight increase in supply cost vs the banshees

And then there's the wolverines which are considered weaker than the reavers what happens there is guaranteed to be even more of a win for the Air. So in closing the people who wanted evidence to what I've said you have it there in front of you.

Some like minded people have attempted to warp the intent and messege of mine and others posts regarding this topic and belittle alot of people about thier need to learn to be better at the game to stop complaining when they know nothing about the person they are insulting let alone never even played a match with or against them which is a cop out for avoiding the facts of the issues raised in the Air vs AA debates.

But here is the evidence to back up my proposed balance changes and to further enforce what alot of people, postums and the devs are saying and working to fix for the betterment of balance and elimination of the concept of a single unit army in a truly amazing RTS game and that is that air is over performing against its counter.

Can a complex army of reavers take on banshees
Halo Wars 2 Mythbusters
https://youtu.be/oAU0inTCX8A

To clarify my position on this matter as some people like to warp the posts in a different direction putting peoples argument on this topic down to lack of skill or ability to play at a competitive level.

This post is for the community to come together and voice concerns over the single unit spam of air and its dominance and utility in the game as it stands, and as postums has stated air is over performing right now and has been for a while as most people with common sense and the devs have confirmed this.

On the other side there is a so called self proclaimed elite few forum warriors that attempt to shut down any constructive argument under the guise of your a noob or your service record gives you no experience or right to question game balance. You have to be blind, in denial or an advocate of spamming only air to see how overpowered it is else you wouldn't defend it so religiously. But I digress.

So here's the thing. Air units are totally over powered. Period. And this is since the most recent patch in march and I hope for a correction by the devs by further buffing AA in the next update. One of the main reasons behind this is the sheer cost to counter air is unbalanced as it costs power to build anti air something that is not easily acsessable or in abundance in the early game and even the mid game.

On the otherside air costs only supply's which we all know and can agree on is much to easy to spam early and mid game. Furthermore air is incredibly easy to manoeuvre and requires litterly no skill to melt opposition as AA can be focused down in mere seconds and can reposistion in a heartbeat and out range AA using bases as LOS blockers allowing for air units to focus down bases and structures.

Ways this can be fixed.
For AA balance:
Half power cost on AA
Speed up build time of AA
And buff AA damage

For Air balance:
Add 75-125 supply's to cost of air
Reduce core Air damage against AA, structures and turrets.
Increase build time

This will mean that players have to build anti vehicle to counter AA and anti building to destroy bases not just laser everything down with overwhelming air and manoeuvrability

Realistically 1-2 AA should be able to take down at least 2-3 Air units quickly and efficiently but its quite often the case that the air will move away from AA and find someone without AA which implies that every game you need to build majority AA.

I myself have pulled off many full air rushes and its kinda of sad the place air is right now as nothing is equivalent to thier power and utility in game and as such the direction of the game is heading to a full air pop meta in essence destroying the need to build other great units in the game and strategize mixed build army's for more depth of combat.

Dench.
Currently the biggest issue is Air being UP in 1s and percieved as OP in teams.

Until someone can bridge the gap between those I highly doubt the community will ever reach a consesus.
Air is barely functional at the highest level of play in 1v1, which is the area the game should be balanced around. The solution to mid and low level players struggling with countering air is not making significant changes that will negatively effect high level play, but it is educating those that struggle.

I normally charge for coaching, but the first sub-onyx player to quote this post requesting coaching vs specific types of air play will get the session for free. It will be live streamed on twitch and saved on youtube. I will go into great detail on how air is to be dealt with.
Still no actual evidence to support your arguments?

Shame.

My offer still stands for you to play me, allow me to record the games, and use the gameplay to display what happens when a player goes air.
Air is barely functional at the highest level of play in 1v1, which is the area the game should be balanced around. The solution to mid and low level players struggling with countering air is not making significant changes that will negatively effect high level play, but it is educating those that struggle.

I normally charge for coaching, but the first sub-onyx player to quote this post requesting coaching vs specific types of air play will get the session for free. It will be live streamed on twitch and saved on youtube. I will go into great detail on how air is to be dealt with.
Air can easily be dealt with is in no way true I've seen a video of yours where you specialise in just spamming air to beat your opponent and he was in no way an unskilled player air is a crutch for playing with very little skill required and tactical thought needed as it stomps any early and mid game aggression this is even more the case in 3's

In your own content youve proven their exploitation and viability as a single unit army which the developers have stated they want to eliminate from the game and so does the majority of players in this game.

Anders Hornet and fast tech build by Nakamura RTS

https://youtu.be/loK5h3wPPZE

In response to your quote I don't spam air as a single unit in season

0 to Champ Nakamura RTS

18 mins in your building only air
https://youtu.be/Oj7ocoRJ7Dk
Still no actual evidence to support your arguments?

Shame.

My offer still stands for you to play me, allow me to record the games, and use the gameplay to display what happens when a player goes air.
Its funny that you've missed the point of this thread read title
Air is barely functional at the highest level of play in 1v1, which is the area the game should be balanced around. The solution to mid and low level players struggling with countering air is not making significant changes that will negatively effect high level play, but it is educating those that struggle.

I normally charge for coaching, but the first sub-onyx player to quote this post requesting coaching vs specific types of air play will get the session for free. It will be live streamed on twitch and saved on youtube. I will go into great detail on how air is to be dealt with.
Air can easily be dealt with is in no way true I've seen a video of yours where you specialise in just spamming air to beat your opponent and he was in no way an unskilled player air is a crutch for playing with very little skill required and tactical thought needed as it stomps any early and mid game aggression this is even more the case in 3's

In your own content youve proven their exploitation and viability as a single unit army which the developers have stated they want to eliminate from the game and so does the majority of players in this game.

Anders Hornet and fast tech build by Nakamura RTS

https://youtu.be/loK5h3wPPZE
I don't spam air in serious games against equal or better opponents. The video you're linking is from the preseason, when people would only make scouts.
Air is barely functional at the highest level of play in 1v1, which is the area the game should be balanced around. The solution to mid and low level players struggling with countering air is not making significant changes that will negatively effect high level play, but it is educating those that struggle.

I normally charge for coaching, but the first sub-onyx player to quote this post requesting coaching vs specific types of air play will get the session for free. It will be live streamed on twitch and saved on youtube. I will go into great detail on how air is to be dealt with.
Hi I'm having a lot of trouble with colony players spamming skitter attached shrouds. Think you can help me out?
Still no actual evidence to support your arguments?

Shame.

My offer still stands for you to play me, allow me to record the games, and use the gameplay to display what happens when a player goes air.
Its funny that you've missed the point of this thread read title
You can't say somethings OP and not show proof no matter what..
Air is barely functional at the highest level of play in 1v1, which is the area the game should be balanced around. The solution to mid and low level players struggling with countering air is not making significant changes that will negatively effect high level play, but it is educating those that struggle.

I normally charge for coaching, but the first sub-onyx player to quote this post requesting coaching vs specific types of air play will get the session for free. It will be live streamed on twitch and saved on youtube. I will go into great detail on how air is to be dealt with.
Air can easily be dealt with is in no way true I've seen a video of yours where you specialise in just spamming air to beat your opponent and he was in no way an unskilled player air is a crutch for playing with very little skill required and tactical thought needed as it stomps any early and mid game aggression this is even more the case in 3's

In your own content youve proven their exploitation and viability as a single unit army which the developers have stated they want to eliminate from the game and so does the majority of players in this game.

Anders Hornet and fast tech build by Nakamura RTS

https://youtu.be/loK5h3wPPZE
I don't spam air in serious games against equal or better opponents. The video you're linking is from the preseason, when people would only make scouts.
That may be but youve still proven its effectiveness as a single unit spam which is the main issue
Air is barely functional at the highest level of play in 1v1, which is the area the game should be balanced around. The solution to mid and low level players struggling with countering air is not making significant changes that will negatively effect high level play, but it is educating those that struggle.

I normally charge for coaching, but the first sub-onyx player to quote this post requesting coaching vs specific types of air play will get the session for free. It will be live streamed on twitch and saved on youtube. I will go into great detail on how air is to be dealt with.
Air can easily be dealt with is in no way true I've seen a video of yours where you specialise in just spamming air to beat your opponent and he was in no way an unskilled player air is a crutch for playing with very little skill required and tactical thought needed as it stomps any early and mid game aggression this is even more the case in 3's

In your own content youve proven their exploitation and viability as a single unit army which the developers have stated they want to eliminate from the game and so does the majority of players in this game.

Anders Hornet and fast tech build by Nakamura RTS

https://youtu.be/loK5h3wPPZE
I don't spam air in serious games against equal or better opponents. The video you're linking is from the preseason, when people would only make scouts.
That may be but youve still proven its effectiveness as a single unit spam which is the main issue
The pre season was over a year ago, I have no idea what your getting at. There are plenty of high level games on YouTube from more current seasons and I promise you that you wont see much Air in them at all. You can also watch twitch streams from BtC and Nakamura for more regular games. Also don't get "one of the people on the team went air" with "they are spamming air". Because for a while the meta was core vehicles or die.
Its funny that you've missed the point of this thread read title
Sigh. Fine, let's go through this.

Quote:
This post is for the community to come together and voice concerns over the single unit spam of air and its dominance and utility in the game as it stands, and as postums has stated air is over performing right now and has been for a while as most people with common sense and the devs have confirmed this.
See, this is why I, along with others, would you like you to put forth some sort of evidence of air being units being "dominant". Every test I have performed/witnessed, has displayed air units being dunked on. Moreover, in every remotely competitive game I have played, I have not witnessed air units "dominating". If anything, infantry is dominating right now. As for what Postums stated; he was talking about a specific damage model of air; Banshee fuel rod has a wonky damage model towards certain targets (bases/AA). You're taking that massively out of context.

PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF SOMETHING BEING WRONG, RATHER THAN SPEAKING FROM EMOTION.
Quote:
On the other side there is a so called self proclaimed elite few forum warriors that attempt to shut down any constructive argument under the guise of your a noob or your service record gives you no experience or right to question game balance. You have to be blind, in denial or an advocate of spamming only air to see how overpowered it is else you wouldn't defend it so religiously. But I digress.
The whole forum warrior thing is a joke, dawg. Sure, there a couple people telling you you're wrong, as we have seen these weak, pointless arguments made time and time again. But for the most part, we are trying to help you. If you don't want people to simply tell you that you're bad, I suggest putting forth evidence... can't really tell evidence that its wrong.

No one saying that air is i fine is blind, in denial, or an advocate of air spam. We simply care about the balance of the game. The suggestions you put fourth would make air absolutely worthless (more on this later).

Quote:
So here's the thing. Air units are totally over powered. Period. And this is since the most recent patch in march and I hope for a correction by the devs by further buffing AA in the next update. One of the main reasons behind this is the sheer cost to counter air is unbalanced as it costs power to build anti air something that is not easily acsessable or in abundance in the early game and even the mid game.
My argument to this is as follows;

Air units are not overpowered. Period.

See how dumb that sounds?

Core air units are among some of the most expensive units in the game. Before you tell me i'm wrong, let me explain, so you understand.

Banshee cost [per unit] = 3/275/0
Banshee cost [per pop] = 1/91.67/0 (91.67 total cost)
Banshee cost [120 pop] = 120/11,000/0
Total Banshee cost [120 pop] = 11,000 resources

Reaver cost [per unit] 5/175/210
Reaver cost [per pop] = 1/35/42 (77 total cost)
Reaver cost [120 pop] = 120/4,200/5,040
Total Reaver cost [120 pop] = 9,240 resources

By simple observation, it can be seen that Reavers are fairly cheaper than Banshees. Let's also not forget that one will never need full pop Reavers to fight full pop Banshees, as Reavers (AA in general) perform their job very, very well. The numbers are similar with UNSC units, but I am too lazy to go through that, as well.

Where am I going with this?

With AA costing much less than air, it allows the AA player to buy more Gens., expo earlier/easier, have extra cheddar for LP's, and just simply have more resources. The nice thing about power income in this game, is that Gens. don't have a curve to them, so each Gen. will be generating the same amount of power, regardless of how many you have. Moreover, having the cost of AA split between both economies allows you eco to be much more balanced, allowing you to back up your AA with other units quite easily.

As for power being hard to come by... I don't know what you mean. There are nodes, power crates, and as I just explained, you'll be able to purchase more expos/Gens. than your opponent.

Quote:
On the otherside air costs only supply's which we all know and can agree on is much to easy to spam early and mid game. Furthermore air is incredibly easy to manoeuvre and requires litterly no skill to melt opposition as AA can be focused down in mere seconds and can reposistion in a heartbeat and out range AA using bases as LOS blockers allowing for air units to focus down bases and structures.
From reading this, I can tell you need to work on your positioning, map awareness, splitting, and general micro.

Sure, air is easy to use, which is why newer/weaker players gravitate towards using it. Air does not melt AA. Feel free to look at the countless tests demonstrating this if you don't believe me. When fighting around a base, STOP using all units, split your AA, and pinch the air units on one side of your base. If the air runs away, leave some AA back home (with turrets/shields), and use the rest of your units to push the AA. These are VERY SIMPLE RTS mechanics.

Quote:
For AA balance:
Half power cost on AA
Speed up build time of AA
And buff AA damage

For Air balance:
Add 75-125 supply's to cost of air
Reduce core Air damage against AA, structures and turrets.
Increase build time
Cutting the cost of AA in half would, quite literally, break the balance of the game. And as I explained above, there is already a large cost difference between the two unit types, no reason to increase that. Speeding up the build time of AA would be interesting, and I think would reasonable. Would need to test that out a bit. AA already beats air at a ratio of about 2.5:1, which is exactly where it should be. That doesn't need to be changed.

Air's cost was just brought down because it was TOO expensive. Increasing the cost that much would, again, break the balance of the game. Air currently has a mediocre damage model towards structures (referring to tests performed by The Wall), which is where it should be. Reducing air's damage towards AA is something that could be considered, but I don't see it being needed, as this was just adjusted. Increasing build time could also be considered.

Quote:
I myself have pulled off many full air rushes and its kinda of sad the place air is right now as nothing is equivalent to thier power and utility in game and as such the direction of the game is heading to a full air rush meta in essence destroying the need to build other great units in the game and strategize mixed build army's for more depth of combat.
There is no such thing as an "air rush"; please read this to understand what a rush is. If you have pulled off so many of these pushes, why don't you play me, and display to me just how broken this is? Again, I can record it and post it here for evidence to support your arguments. Currently, the game favours mixed armies, as single unit spam is not as nearly as effective as it has been in previous seasons.

I want to stress again. PLEASE PUT FORTH ANY SORT OF EVIDENCE SUPPORTING YOUR ARGUMENT. THIS IS HOW THINGS WORK, YOU NEED TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS WITH EVIDENCE. I WILL GLADLY TEST WITH YOU AND/OR PLAY YOU TO PROVIDE YOU WITH APPROPRIATE EVIDENCE.Yelling done, seriously, you need evidence.

Rant over.
What? The splash damage from AA is more than enough wipe out AA spam.

Look at this video for an example. It is obviously not definitive, and i think there has been a new patch since then, but still you see clearly that "unskilled AA spam" can be stopped no problem when you know they have full air (i.e scout!!!).

You talk about mixing units. If you mixed AA with your other units, you should not have a problem.

I would mention leader powers, but then we add in variables like different leaders and more skill into the mix.

EDIT:
-Forgot to mention scouting. If you enemy makes a full pop of air while you have no counter, that is your fault.
-Also goofed the link. Here is is again Video
Air is barely functional at the highest level of play in 1v1, which is the area the game should be balanced around. The solution to mid and low level players struggling with countering air is not making significant changes that will negatively effect high level play, but it is educating those that struggle.

I normally charge for coaching, but the first sub-onyx player to quote this post requesting coaching vs specific types of air play will get the session for free. It will be live streamed on twitch and saved on youtube. I will go into great detail on how air is to be dealt with.
Air can easily be dealt with is in no way true I've seen a video of yours where you specialise in just spamming air to beat your opponent and he was in no way an unskilled player air is a crutch for playing with very little skill required and tactical thought needed as it stomps any early and mid game aggression this is even more the case in 3's

In your own content youve proven their exploitation and viability as a single unit army which the developers have stated they want to eliminate from the game and so does the majority of players in this game.

Anders Hornet and fast tech build by Nakamura RTS

https://youtu.be/loK5h3wPPZE
I don't spam air in serious games against equal or better opponents. The video you're linking is from the preseason, when people would only make scouts.
That may be but youve still proven its effectiveness as a single unit spam which is the main issue
  • First week of the game after release
  • Weak opponent
  • I hard countered his opener
  • Days after the vid I was not able to pull this build off very often and ended up discarding it eventually. Fast T2 air is terrible because of the abundance of infantry in T1
...
There are alot of things wrong with your argument/Post but i could care less,
except for this.
"as postums has stated air is over performing right now and has been for a while as most people with common sense and the devs have confirmed this"

This is out of context, let me explain.

In 1v1s there is a vary small amount of games won with Air and in 2v2 that number jumps to around 40%(ish) and jumps again to 70%(ish) in 3v3, with buffs to AA and nerfs to Air these numbers go down across the board but the problem here is that 2v2/3v3 are not representative of balance because of other factors like Map Size, Teammates, Coordination and Communication, non of which has anything to do with until balance.

Furthermore RTS have Always and will always be balanced around 1v1s because of these variables, the fact is "Teams" in a RTS are a add on to the genre NOT the core behind the game.

With all that said,
Air is Balanced and AA is possibly over buffed.

Edit:
These W/L % are from before the first set of Buffs to AA and nerfs to Air so i expect them to be much lower now.
Air is barely functional at the highest level of play in 1v1, which is the area the game should be balanced around. The solution to mid and low level players struggling with countering air is not making significant changes that will negatively effect high level play, but it is educating those that struggle.

I normally charge for coaching, but the first sub-onyx player to quote this post requesting coaching vs specific types of air play will get the session for free. It will be live streamed on twitch and saved on youtube. I will go into great detail on how air is to be dealt with.
The coaching offer still stands, the first quote to this was in fact a joke.
Its funny that you've missed the point of this thread read title
Core air units are among some of the most expensive units in the game. Before you tell me i'm wrong, let me explain, so you understand.

Banshee cost [per unit] = 3/275/0
Banshee cost [per pop] = 1/91.67/0 (91.67 total cost)
Banshee cost [120 pop] = 120/11,000/0
Total Banshee cost [120 pop] = 11,000 resources

Reaver cost [per unit] 5/175/120
Reaver cost [per pop] = 1/35/24 (59 total cost)
Reaver cost [120 pop] = 120/4,200/2,880
Total Reaver cost [120 pop] = 4,080 resources

By simple observation, it can be seen that Reavers are substantially cheaper than Banshees. A full army of Reavers can be build almost three times over for one army of Banshees. The numbers are similar with UNSC units, but I am too lazy to go through that, as well.
So what is the cheat code to make reavers cost only 120 power?
I am in the middle with this, I mainly play team games so air can be an issue at times. I definitely think air is much better now and counterable. In older team games it was game over when someone spammed hornets or banshees, but it feels less like that now I guess? Its weird, I feel like they are fine against other units but in mass still wreck bases really fast.

I have played some unranked games and I have seen a lot less air spam from people in those matches. When someone does decide to air spam, I have usually come on top, and I wouldn't have a single air unit, in fact I have kinda just stopped using them at the moment. I tried to air spam on match cause I knew I was gonna lose... and I did.

As another "Not-Champion" player (though your skirmish rank is higher than mine so take that as you will) I do agree that some kinda of evidence could be shown. I don't disagree that air can be OP, but I do not agree to holding its "OPness" to what it once was. It definitely is weaker now.

And I have been mainly playing UNSC... ya know, with AA's that aren't a firework show.
EiTeNeR wrote:
So what is the cheat code to make reavers cost only 120 power?
Lmao, 210*, sorry. That's what I get for not editing.

Good looks, thank you, I'll edit that.

:D
I think OP tried a little too hard to 5h1tpost
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