Forums / Games / Halo Wars Series

Air Units are Not Over Powered (videos)

OP THEWALL766

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Did you tried Time for heroes Hornets vs anything? That's been my headeche recently I beat an army and when I start assaulting the base the dude begins to spam buffed Hornets that can melt my AA and proceed to kill the rest. Or the dude gets quick T2 spams a couple of hornets and hunts my AA.
Well then...Marine spam is now the new meta game XD
Well then...Marine spam is now the new meta game XD
Flamers and suicide grunts both more than counter marines and grunts.
Did you tried Time for heroes Hornets vs anything? That's been my headeche recently I beat an army and when I start assaulting the base the dude begins to spam buffed Hornets that can melt my AA and proceed to kill the rest. Or the dude gets quick T2 spams a couple of hornets and hunts my AA.
So TFH only affects populations less than 40 or 60 which only works in the very early game. The inspire is definitely significant but if he is using TFH units to hit and run, turrets should defend your base while a full logically made army should be able to push a base. I really like Jerome’s early game with the mantis but I think that quick teching to Air, especially in 1s sacrifices too much field position in the beginning.
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I'd like to point out how, at least the first two examples, the banshees targeted mainly the base and we're not microed correctly. That, alone, is a deciding factor in a fight. Of course they easily lost, cuz they didn't even focus down what was shooting them. The hunters brand was terrible as well. They didn't micro the banshees, no where near the way he was microing the Marines. Again, huge factor right there.

With that being said, I would never argue banshees being too strong or AA being too weak. I've always argued that it's the way they affect economy and how AA focus fires, overkilling whatever they shot at, with several missiles just not doing anything.
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I'd like to point out how, at least the first two examples, the banshees targeted mainly the base and we're not microed correctly. That, alone, is a deciding factor in a fight. Of course they easily lost, cuz they didn't even focus down what was shooting them. The hunters brand was terrible as well. They didn't micro the banshees, no where near the way he was microing the Marines. Again, huge factor right there.

With that being said, I would never argue banshees being too strong or AA being too weak. I've always argued that it's the way they affect economy and how AA focus fires, overkilling whatever they shot at, with several missiles just not doing anything.
As I said, in the first two examples, the objective was to destroy the minibase. The main point is that banshees cannot destroy a building if it is defended by marines and that marines do crazy damage to air. I dodged the hunters brand because I split my units which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do when you know what leader powers to expect. That's just good micro habits. Please post your video of banshees 1v1ing combat tech marines without the minibase and tell me how it ends up.

If you saw any of the other videos, an army of 8 wolverines and 16 hogs destroys an army of banshees with no contest. My economy is fine replacing 1-2 wolverines and 1-2 hogs while his might be a little bit more hurt replacing his full army banshees.
Finally someone has the gall to play devils advocate, and actually leverage a defense for the current balance.
THEWALL766 wrote:
Breezy approves of this message.
I'd like to point out how, at least the first two examples, the banshees targeted mainly the base and we're not microed correctly. That, alone, is a deciding factor in a fight. Of course they easily lost, cuz they didn't even focus down what was shooting them. The hunters brand was terrible as well. They didn't micro the banshees, no where near the way he was microing the Marines. Again, huge factor right there.

With that being said, I would never argue banshees being too strong or AA being too weak. I've always argued that it's the way they affect economy and how AA focus fires, overkilling whatever they shot at, with several missiles just not doing anything.
As I said, in the first two examples, the objective was to destroy the minibase. The main point is that banshees cannot destroy a building if it is defended by marines and that marines do crazy damage to air. I dodged the hunters brand because I split my units which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do when you know what leader powers to expect. That's just good micro habits. Please post your video of banshees 1v1ing combat tech marines without the minibase and tell me how it ends up.

If you saw any of the other videos, an army of 8 wolverines and 16 hogs destroys an army of banshees with no contest. My economy is fine replacing 1-2 wolverines and 1-2 hogs while his might be a little bit more hurt replacing his full army banshees.
I saw all of them, and I'll point out again that the enemy microing sucked. Leader powers were used poorly. It didn't feel like an actual attempt at it. Another point I'll more is the likelihood of a banshee ball hitting a mini base knowing they are against UNSC, I would have gone straight for the main base. In a realistic scenario, the enemy (assuming I was the banshee ball) wouldn't be defending a mini base. One more thing I'll point out is people's arguments about maneuverability. On that map, a ball would go across the bridge path. And that map also has very little restrictions for ground troops compared to several other maps.

I guess what I'm saying is that the player using the banshee ball didn't approach said scenario realistically. Healers weren't mixed in either.bad microing and poor usage of leader powers ensured the banshees loss. Even with you microing your Marines and vehicles, the hunters brand and other offensive leader abilities could have been used much better
THEWALL766 wrote:
Breezy approves of this message.
I'd like to point out how, at least the first two examples, the banshees targeted mainly the base and we're not microed correctly. That, alone, is a deciding factor in a fight. Of course they easily lost, cuz they didn't even focus down what was shooting them. The hunters brand was terrible as well. They didn't micro the banshees, no where near the way he was microing the Marines. Again, huge factor right there.

With that being said, I would never argue banshees being too strong or AA being too weak. I've always argued that it's the way they affect economy and how AA focus fires, overkilling whatever they shot at, with several missiles just not doing anything.
As I said, in the first two examples, the objective was to destroy the minibase. The main point is that banshees cannot destroy a building if it is defended by marines and that marines do crazy damage to air. I dodged the hunters brand because I split my units which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do when you know what leader powers to expect. That's just good micro habits. Please post your video of banshees 1v1ing combat tech marines without the minibase and tell me how it ends up.

If you saw any of the other videos, an army of 8 wolverines and 16 hogs destroys an army of banshees with no contest. My economy is fine replacing 1-2 wolverines and 1-2 hogs while his might be a little bit more hurt replacing his full army banshees.
I saw all of them, and I'll point out again that the enemy microing sucked. Leader powers were used poorly. It didn't feel like an actual attempt at it. Another point I'll more is the likelihood of a banshee ball hitting a mini base knowing they are against UNSC, I would have gone straight for the main base. In a realistic scenario, the enemy (assuming I was the banshee ball) wouldn't be defending a mini base. One more thing I'll point out is people's arguments about maneuverability. On that map, a ball would go across the bridge path. And that map also has very little restrictions for ground troops compared to several other maps.

I guess what I'm saying is that the player using the banshee ball didn't approach said scenario realistically. Healers weren't mixed in either.bad microing and poor usage of leader powers ensured the banshees loss. Even with you microing your Marines and vehicles, the hunters brand and other offensive leader abilities could have been used much better
You are more than welcome to run tests with us and show us. The point of these specific tests was to show that air loses to its counters. I don't think people with average micro would have done things differently. On top of that, most of those tests, the AA used no leader powers so they were already at a disadvantage.

If you were trying to hit and run my main base with air I would have had turrets or units held back to defend. On top of that, if you are going straight air off the bat, I would have scouted and pushed your base well before you can get anywhere close to a full army.
THEWALL766 wrote:
THEWALL766 wrote:
Breezy approves of this message.
I'd like to point out how, at least the first two examples, the banshees targeted mainly the base and we're not microed correctly. That, alone, is a deciding factor in a fight. Of course they easily lost, cuz they didn't even focus down what was shooting them. The hunters brand was terrible as well. They didn't micro the banshees, no where near the way he was microing the Marines. Again, huge factor right there.

With that being said, I would never argue banshees being too strong or AA being too weak. I've always argued that it's the way they affect economy and how AA focus fires, overkilling whatever they shot at, with several missiles just not doing anything.
As I said, in the first two examples, the objective was to destroy the minibase. The main point is that banshees cannot destroy a building if it is defended by marines and that marines do crazy damage to air. I dodged the hunters brand because I split my units which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do when you know what leader powers to expect. That's just good micro habits. Please post your video of banshees 1v1ing combat tech marines without the minibase and tell me how it ends up.

If you saw any of the other videos, an army of 8 wolverines and 16 hogs destroys an army of banshees with no contest. My economy is fine replacing 1-2 wolverines and 1-2 hogs while his might be a little bit more hurt replacing his full army banshees.
I saw all of them, and I'll point out again that the enemy microing sucked. Leader powers were used poorly. It didn't feel like an actual attempt at it. Another point I'll more is the likelihood of a banshee ball hitting a mini base knowing they are against UNSC, I would have gone straight for the main base. In a realistic scenario, the enemy (assuming I was the banshee ball) wouldn't be defending a mini base. One more thing I'll point out is people's arguments about maneuverability. On that map, a ball would go across the bridge path. And that map also has very little restrictions for ground troops compared to several other maps.

I guess what I'm saying is that the player using the banshee ball didn't approach said scenario realistically. Healers weren't mixed in either.bad microing and poor usage of leader powers ensured the banshees loss. Even with you microing your Marines and vehicles, the hunters brand and other offensive leader abilities could have been used much better
You are more than welcome to run tests with us and show us. The point of these specific tests was to show that air loses to its counters. I don't think people with average micro would have done things differently. On top of that, most of those tests, the AA used no leader powers so they were already at a disadvantage.

If you were trying to hit and run my main base with air I would have had turrets or units held back to defend. On top of that, if you are going straight air off the bat, I would have scouted and pushed your base well before you can get anywhere close to a full army.
My point being, leader powers or not, the air army just wasn't being used affectively.

Look, let it be know right now, I'm not asking for a Nerf to air nor a major buff to AA. What I mainly want is one of two things, AA to not focus fire (this would essentially nullify any argument that AA is under powered), or for a new AA unit to be introduced.

One could argue that I just am bored of this weird air blob meta that a majority of people use. And the fact that air is easily one of the MOST used units so many seasons in a row just shows that, OPor not, people have a predilection to go air. Especially if their infantry rush fails.

Nearly every match I've played the past several months have included mass air in some form or another. There's nothing really fun with it.
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I don't need to watch the videos because I know they aren't OP but I have to deeply thank you for all that effort. That's amazing!
I don't need to watch the videos because I know they aren't OP but I have to deeply thank you for all that effort. That's amazing!
I appreciate it. At this point I don't even think I want to convince other people. If they want to lose by going T2 air, let them. I just don't want the people in charge of the balance to think that Air is too strong and nerf it away.
I think the bigger issue is when defending a base, especially one with limited mobility for ground units. I think people get frustrated when they have a hard time defending 2+ bases with a ground army against Redline 2 air or decimus air... Or air in general accompanied with strong leader powers (Goo or Atriox) that can more easily punish a ground army rather than an air army. For example in HW1 you were okay with leaving 4-5 wolves at a base to deter air. I am not sure if that works in this game.

A straight interaction isn't really the problem here. Its in certain situations that the mobility of air wins or is at least difficult to shut down. Should this be toned down?

But great job on the videos.
EiTeNeR wrote:
A straight interaction isn't really the problem here. Its in certain situations that the mobility of air wins or is at least difficult to shut down. Should this be toned down?
In that case you'd just need some shield generators or AA turrets (UNSC) to hold the line till your Air killers arrive. Then launch a counter push with the rest of your army.
EiTeNeR wrote:
I think the bigger issue is when defending a base, especially one with limited mobility for ground units. I think people get frustrated when they have a hard time defending 2+ bases with a ground army against Redline 2 air or decimus air... Or air in general accompanied with strong leader powers (Goo or Atriox) that can more easily punish a ground army rather than an air army. For example in HW1 you were okay with leaving 4-5 wolves at a base to deter air. I am not sure if that works in this game.

A straight interaction isn't really the problem here. Its in certain situations that the mobility of air wins or is at least difficult to shut down. Should this be toned down?

But great job on the videos.
2-3 well managed AA units plus AA turrets + leader powers should be enough to punish someone trying to sneak behind the line and attack a base. If I saw that I would send the bulk of my army to then try and take out an expo. It takes some confidence with unit splitting and not using the "all units" button but I think its manageable. As long as you have a few building killers and a few AA units in your forward army, you should be golden.
THEWALL766 wrote:
EiTeNeR wrote:
I think the bigger issue is when defending a base, especially one with limited mobility for ground units. I think people get frustrated when they have a hard time defending 2+ bases with a ground army against Redline 2 air or decimus air... Or air in general accompanied with strong leader powers (Goo or Atriox) that can more easily punish a ground army rather than an air army. For example in HW1 you were okay with leaving 4-5 wolves at a base to deter air. I am not sure if that works in this game.

A straight interaction isn't really the problem here. Its in certain situations that the mobility of air wins or is at least difficult to shut down. Should this be toned down?

But great job on the videos.
2-3 well managed AA units plus AA turrets + leader powers should be enough to punish someone trying to sneak behind the line and attack a base. If I saw that I would send the bulk of my army to then try and take out an expo. It takes some confidence with unit splitting and not using the "all units" button but I think its manageable. As long as you have a few building killers and a few AA units in your forward army, you should be golden.
You are being too general here. 2-3 AA will be kited around the base and quickly destroyed. I would expect 3 AA with turrets will only manage to kill 8-10 banshees. ALSO Every leader does not have a nuke that can reliably hit air. Even so you are leaving a unit vs unit interaction to be decided by a leader power. This should never happen... but it often does in this game.

You are correct that going for a base trade is the best option. Depending on the map and your leader... you would probably never make it back to your base in time to defend.
EiTeNeR wrote:
THEWALL766 wrote:
EiTeNeR wrote:
I think the bigger issue is when defending a base, especially one with limited mobility for ground units. I think people get frustrated when they have a hard time defending 2+ bases with a ground army against Redline 2 air or decimus air... Or air in general accompanied with strong leader powers (Goo or Atriox) that can more easily punish a ground army rather than an air army. For example in HW1 you were okay with leaving 4-5 wolves at a base to deter air. I am not sure if that works in this game.

A straight interaction isn't really the problem here. Its in certain situations that the mobility of air wins or is at least difficult to shut down. Should this be toned down?

But great job on the videos.
2-3 well managed AA units plus AA turrets + leader powers should be enough to punish someone trying to sneak behind the line and attack a base. If I saw that I would send the bulk of my army to then try and take out an expo. It takes some confidence with unit splitting and not using the "all units" button but I think its manageable. As long as you have a few building killers and a few AA units in your forward army, you should be golden.
You are being too general here. 2-3 AA will be kited around the base and quickly destroyed. I would expect 3 AA with turrets will only manage to kill 8-10 banshees. ALSO Every leader does not have a nuke that can reliably hit air. Even so you are leaving a unit vs unit interaction to be decided by a leader power. This should never happen... but it often does in this game.

You are correct that going for a base trade is the best option. Depending on the map and your leader... you would probably never make it back to your base in time to defend.
if they are attacking your base, it means they should be coming to you. There is no reason you should be kited in this situation if you have AA turrents and a watch tower. Also, if they are attacking your base, you have the advantage of being able to produce more units if they die. The enemy does not have this luxury.

I don't know what you are trying to say with leader powers deciding unit interactions, AA units will beat pretty much any air army even when leader powers only from the Air army is used.

I don't know what situation you are trying to describe to be here but it sounds like the person going AA is already behind in terms of field position and unit composition. If the other person out maneuvered you, I'm sorry but you lost, its not Air or Anti Airs fault. Its yours for giving up map control and letting him build up to the point where he can harass you so easily. Air is not cheap to mass and it does not spawn quickly at all. If your scouting and playing aggressively, there is no reason why they should have this opportunity.
If you produce one infantry, all the vehicles will be garbage.
Many people try to use infantry and vehicles at the same time, but it is too bad.
When you become Tier 2, you must immediately dispose all infantry.
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