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[Locked] Appeal to 343, Dont Buff Anti Air

OP THEWALL766

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Coconut25 wrote:
Coconut25 wrote:
There are soo many things wrong with your story, put simply you're bad and got out played.

Siege turrets have more range then Kodiaks so you where neve going to get in range, instead you should've used Vultures Y Ability to nuke the base
You can also combo them with
Combat Salvage to save all your vultures after there suicide mission.

The 2nd option you had was to add a few nightngales to your AA And Tanks army
(instead of wasting pop on useless Artillery)
The nightngales can use there Y Ability to prevent the Siege turrets from attacking long enough for your army to close the gap and get close to the base,
Once you're ontop of the base the Siege turrets become useless and with just a handfull of AA he wont be able to defend with any air army.

These are just the first thing that come to mind but after typing this out i can count at least another2 strategy that would beat this.
*FacePalm*😣
So am I to understand that you are simultaneously telling me that I am bad at the game for trying to counter air wiJer their hard counter instead of using air to counter air while also defending the idea that air is balanced?

Because what I just read was that countering air is more effective if I just mirror his air as opposed to USING THEIR COUNTER

The entire thread is about how AA isn't effective, and your solution to well micro'd air is mirroring air and using combat salvage - and maybe you are right and that was the best choice in how I should have handled it - but what exactly is the -Yoinking!- point of AA if you can do just as good a job with hornets/banshees and have the added bonus of actually being able to attack bases with them.

Also, I strongly disagree with Kodiaks being worthless. Four Kodiaks can and absolutely do soften up any massed ground army, and at only 6 pop each, they're very cost-effective if positioned correctly.

Oh, and, as I stated in my original post, he was using KODIAKS and not siege turrets. His base had anti vehicle turrets, which combined with his healing air cloud and Kodiaks he had spread out, absolutely shredded my wolverines. We weren't evenly matched - I was better. I beat his Jerome Mantis opener with a combination of Forgehog and marine spam positioning. I beat his warthog spam by forcing him back to his base - I even took out a generator - before coming back with a few grizzly tanks from the drop and some kodiaks. I even called his switch to air and had wolverines prepared. Those broke even with his hornet spam. Which kept happening until he eventually grinded my position down and I lost.

If the solution to beating air spam is to counter air spam and not build a large amount of wolverines and slowly bomb his base into oblivion from the high ground I do believe AA is worthless, because currently with proper microing you can keep breaking even with the people using AA until they make a mistake and then you take a base and its over.
FFs, You must have Selective Reading..
Let me break this down for you.

1. Your AA lost because of Kodiaks not his Air
You chased his Air into his No-MansLand without any kind of support.
2. You're NOT Countering his Air with your Air, You're Destroying his only source of units and resources with Vultures, this is the UNSC Go-to strategy to crack a Tuttle.
3. You completely ignore my 2nd Strategy,
which would work the same with Siege Turrets or Kodiak and would utilize Your AA To Hard counter his Air.

Edit:
4. A 3rd Strategy you could've used is to use forge Transport ability to drop a full army onto his doorstep and destroy his base and his air army before the Kodiaks could even get your units down to half health, you could also use transport to drop right on top of his Kodiaks and flank with the rest of your army, having any kind of AA in both these groups would render his Air Useless.
4. You say you're good because you held off his early game and stop his hogs and predicted his Air yet you still lost, any competent player would be able to carry that advantage to win but instead you lost because of your lack of strategys
(I.E you're Bad, Gitgud)
Btw forge is the best UNSC Atm and Jerome is bottom 3 on the UNSC side.
Also Kodiaks are useless at killing bases
and dealing with Air Which seems to be all he had in your Description of the game.
Coconut25 wrote:
Coconut25 wrote:
The problems I keep running in to are choke points and wolverine overpop

A few days ago I was fighting a guy who had a big swarm of air units. I had the hill with the double base on one of the new maps (I think it was Mirage) and I had about five Kodiaks and twelve or so Wolverines on the hill. I'd run Forgehog or a few tanks down to the enemy base, and my artillery would rain fire while I tried to kill the base, before a massive swarm of hornets showed up and eat my force, cutting line of site. Eventually, he set up a few of his own Kodiaks.

That's when things got kind of -yoink-

So he would send his air cloud in, kill off a few of my Kodiaks and wolverines, and run away. He would heal up and replace his forces at about the same speed I was replacing mine, which is to say, that he was going even against his counter who had a superior position. As soon as I would try to go down the hill, his base, outfitted with AA turrets and his Kodiaks would eat my Wolverines pretty fast, especially if his air cloud showed up as well. He would attack my base with his air, and when my wolverines showed up, he would retreat back to his base, hitting my Kodiaks along the way.

Eventually, he broke my hill defenses and took it for his own. He quickly positioned his Kodiaks while I sent a massive swarm of Wolverines and Marines up the hill. He would use a hornet to spot/waste all my AA volley, and by the time I got to the top of the hill, I had lost about half of my army. I kill most of his Kodiaks, but by then, the air is shredding everything I have. Eventually he pushes me back to my expansion, which despite having help from AA turrets, falls to 2/3rd air 1/3rd Kodiaks. From the loss of the hill to the GG was about three minutes in a nearly fifty minute match, one which I held control for the early game, the mid game, and a good portion of the late game before AA did what it does best and failed.

The problem is smart players know how to maximize Air's superior speed by engaging choke points. He would move his air in a way that took my wolverines the most time to get to his ball while taking his ball very little time. Areas like cliffs are especially good for this tactic. Mix in a moderate amount of healing and you can very easily get in, do damage and get out while suffering minimal casualties. After a few of these attacks, you will eventually lose ground, and it all comes down to the fact that on every map there are a few spots that take ground units a long time to get around while air units can fly right over, and all any player has to do is focus on those spots and they'll can have a very cost-effective force. It is especially absurd because both wolverines and reavers are abysmal at anything else, and so once you get the 20+ population it takes to really put in damage to a big air swarm, all they have to do is let you counter their stuff and switch to tanks and laugh as they steamroll your army and then your base.

This is why I am pro AoE or range/line of sight buff for air. When Infantry walk into a sniper's line of fire, its a massacre that they have to really struggle to escape. When tanks clash with hunters or even worse, cyclops, they get slaughtered and few limp away. When air flies over a bunch of AA, they just book it to the nearest cliff/chasm/pond, quickly heal with their engineers/'gales, and go on their way.

Most "Proof" I've seen doesn't involve proper microing which to me is the lynchpin of the entire issue. Air, when combined with small amounts of artillery, can and will stomp a mudhole in anti-air when combined with anything else.

Just IMO, from hundreds of hours of Halo Wars 2.

Edited because apparently all you have to do to bypass the profanity filter is add a Y to the end of the F-word.
There are soo many things wrong with your story, put simply you're bad and got out played.

Siege turrets have more range then Kodiaks so you where neve going to get in range, instead you should've used Vultures Y Ability to nuke the base
You can also combo them with
Combat Salvage to save all your vultures after there suicide mission.

The 2nd option you had was to add a few nightngales to your AA And Tanks army
(instead of wasting pop on useless Artillery)
The nightngales can use there Y Ability to prevent the Siege turrets from attacking long enough for your army to close the gap and get close to the base,
Once you're ontop of the base the Siege turrets become useless and with just a handfull of AA he wont be able to defend with any air army.

These are just the first thing that come to mind but after typing this out i can count at least another2 strategy that would beat this.
*FacePalm*😣
So am I to understand that you are simultaneously telling me that I am bad at the game for trying to counter air with their hard counter instead of using air to counter air while also defending the idea that air is balanced?

Because what I just read was that countering air is more effective if I just mirror his air as opposed to USING THEIR COUNTER

The entire thread is about how AA isn't effective, and your solution to well micro'd air is mirroring air and using combat salvage - and maybe you are right and that was the best choice in how I should have handled it - but what exactly is the -Yoinking!- point of AA if you can do just as good a job with hornets/banshees and have the added bonus of actually being able to attack bases with them.

Also, I strongly disagree with Kodiaks being worthless. Four Kodiaks can and absolutely do soften up any massed ground army, and at only 6 pop each, they're very cost-effective if positioned correctly.

Oh, and, as I stated in my original post, he was using KODIAKS and not siege turrets. His base had anti vehicle turrets, which combined with his healing air cloud and Kodiaks he had spread out, absolutely shredded my wolverines. We weren't evenly matched - I was better. I beat his Jerome Mantis opener with a combination of Forgehog and marine spam positioning. I beat his warthog spam by forcing him back to his base - I even took out a generator - before coming back with a few grizzly tanks from the drop and some kodiaks. I even called his switch to air and had wolverines prepared. Those broke even with his hornet spam. Which kept happening until he eventually grinded my position down and I lost.

If the solution to beating air spam is to counter air spam and not build a large amount of wolverines and slowly bomb his base into oblivion from the high ground I do believe AA is worthless, because currently with proper microing you can keep breaking even with the people using AA until they make a mistake and then you take a base and its over.
This is the best version of the anti air argument I have seen yet, and it's pretty much how I feel as well. I, personally, am not asking for a big buff to them, I just want them to functionally actually work better against air.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are complaining more about your AA army being pounded by Kodiaks than losing to Air. I am willing to concede a dps nerf and an AOE buff in order to punish people that use "All units" on their air ball but the interactions as they stand right now favor AA. Kodiaks and Seige turrets are a completely different issue because there is a very delicate balance between useless and oppressive with artillery.
my thoughs is if ur coming at someone with nothing but air ur already losing and dont know how to rts im just saying a good rts player will never come at u with just one type of unit
THEWALL766 wrote:
Coconut25 wrote:
Coconut25 wrote:
The problems I keep running in to are choke points and wolverine overpop

A few days ago I was fighting a guy who had a big swarm of air units. I had the hill with the double base on one of the new maps (I think it was Mirage) and I had about five Kodiaks and twelve or so Wolverines on the hill. I'd run Forgehog or a few tanks down to the enemy base, and my artillery would rain fire while I tried to kill the base, before a massive swarm of hornets showed up and eat my force, cutting line of site. Eventually, he set up a few of his own Kodiaks.

That's when things got kind of -yoink-

So he would send his air cloud in, kill off a few of my Kodiaks and wolverines, and run away. He would heal up and replace his forces at about the same speed I was replacing mine, which is to say, that he was going even against his counter who had a superior position. As soon as I would try to go down the hill, his base, outfitted with AA turrets and his Kodiaks would eat my Wolverines pretty fast, especially if his air cloud showed up as well. He would attack my base with his air, and when my wolverines showed up, he would retreat back to his base, hitting my Kodiaks along the way.

Eventually, he broke my hill defenses and took it for his own. He quickly positioned his Kodiaks while I sent a massive swarm of Wolverines and Marines up the hill. He would use a hornet to spot/waste all my AA volley, and by the time I got to the top of the hill, I had lost about half of my army. I kill most of his Kodiaks, but by then, the air is shredding everything I have. Eventually he pushes me back to my expansion, which despite having help from AA turrets, falls to 2/3rd air 1/3rd Kodiaks. From the loss of the hill to the GG was about three minutes in a nearly fifty minute match, one which I held control for the early game, the mid game, and a good portion of the late game before AA did what it does best and failed.

The problem is smart players know how to maximize Air's superior speed by engaging choke points. He would move his air in a way that took my wolverines the most time to get to his ball while taking his ball very little time. Areas like cliffs are especially good for this tactic. Mix in a moderate amount of healing and you can very easily get in, do damage and get out while suffering minimal casualties. After a few of these attacks, you will eventually lose ground, and it all comes down to the fact that on every map there are a few spots that take ground units a long time to get around while air units can fly right over, and all any player has to do is focus on those spots and they'll can have a very cost-effective force. It is especially absurd because both wolverines and reavers are abysmal at anything else, and so once you get the 20+ population it takes to really put in damage to a big air swarm, all they have to do is let you counter their stuff and switch to tanks and laugh as they steamroll your army and then your base.

This is why I am pro AoE or range/line of sight buff for air. When Infantry walk into a sniper's line of fire, its a massacre that they have to really struggle to escape. When tanks clash with hunters or even worse, cyclops, they get slaughtered and few limp away. When air flies over a bunch of AA, they just book it to the nearest cliff/chasm/pond, quickly heal with their engineers/'gales, and go on their way.

Most "Proof" I've seen doesn't involve proper microing which to me is the lynchpin of the entire issue. Air, when combined with small amounts of artillery, can and will stomp a mudhole in anti-air when combined with anything else.

Just IMO, from hundreds of hours of Halo Wars 2.

Edited because apparently all you have to do to bypass the profanity filter is add a Y to the end of the F-word.
There are soo many things wrong with your story, put simply you're bad and got out played.

Siege turrets have more range then Kodiaks so you where neve going to get in range, instead you should've used Vultures Y Ability to nuke the base
You can also combo them with
Combat Salvage to save all your vultures after there suicide mission.

The 2nd option you had was to add a few nightngales to your AA And Tanks army
(instead of wasting pop on useless Artillery)
The nightngales can use there Y Ability to prevent the Siege turrets from attacking long enough for your army to close the gap and get close to the base,
Once you're ontop of the base the Siege turrets become useless and with just a handfull of AA he wont be able to defend with any air army.

These are just the first thing that come to mind but after typing this out i can count at least another2 strategy that would beat this.
*FacePalm*😣
This is the best version of the anti air argument I have seen yet, and it's pretty much how I feel as well. I, personally, am not asking for a big buff to them, I just want them to functionally actually work better against air.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are complaining more about your AA army being pounded by Kodiaks than losing to Air. I am willing to concede a dps nerf and an AOE buff in order to punish people that use "All units" on their air ball but the interactions as they stand right now favor AA. Kodiaks and Seige turrets are a completely different issue because there is a very delicate balance between useless and oppressive with artillery.
I have zero issue with Kodiaks, in any way. If I lose to them, I know that it was my inability to deal with the before they got a foot hold on an area.

I have zero issues with Air damage, with anti air damage, heck, not even with the AoE of anti air missiles.

My issue is a) Air extreme mobility,especially with maps that have a lot of things blockingground unit mobility. And b) the over firing of the anti air missiles.i absolutely HATE seeing a million rockets go flying into nothing, especially when there isn't ball.
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
Crazy thought but,
What if we just nerf the
Acceleration Speed of Air?...
This wouldn't change the effectiveness of Air/AA at the highest Level of play but would help the Noobs just a little bit by giving them a chance to land a leader power and maybe even catch the Air when the other (Noob) player just leaves his air idle,
Everyone seems to win but thats just my thought..

Edit:
Acceleration does have a value or at the vary least, one can be made because this is exactly what they did to jackrabbits to great success.
No damage buff needed or AoE change.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
u cant out micro air on many maps and its too easy to get tech 2 air units and lvl 2 upgrade. they dominate. im saying this game is turning into air vs air. unsc air is too easy to pull off for how overpowering it is early. banished only really works well in spam late game. you are never goin to sway anyone that air insnt overpowered when 2 vultures will crush a group of counter air in seconds. ya i agree microing is a big deal but an air mob is 100 times easier to control and can easily dodge leader powers with no effort. so you are sayin we should have to deal with minutes more of extra microing tactics to beat someone only using all units command. u cant put them in a choke point. either way you go this games time in the sun is over. it is and has been impossible to sway players back in. regardless of your skills, the game is dead. so are you right? maybe. but no one wants to play a broken game. if it wasnt broke and people wanted to play i wouldnt spend half my time in a matchmaking lobby, and we wouldnt be having this conversation.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
Crazy thought but,
What if we just nerf the
Acceleration Speed of Air?...
This wouldn't change the effectiveness of Air/AA at the highest Level of play but would help the Noobs just a little bit by giving them a chance to land a leader power and maybe even catch the Air when the other (Noob) player just leaves his air idle,
Everyone seems to win but thats just my thought..
thats what ive been saying. these guys think justifying change or no change based off of the top 1% of matchmaking is how to bring the community back. its not. and the devs will always care more about the overall experience of their customers over what a few (for lack of a better term) no lifers think is best for them.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
Crazy thought but,
What if we just nerf the
Acceleration Speed of Air?...
This wouldn't change the effectiveness of Air/AA at the highest Level of play but would help the Noobs just a little bit by giving them a chance to land a leader power and maybe even catch the Air when the other (Noob) player just leaves his air idle,
Everyone seems to win but thats just my thought..
thats what ive been saying. these guys think justifying change or no change based off of the top 1% of matchmaking is how to bring the community back. its not. and the devs will always care more about the overall experience of their customers over what a few (for lack of a better term) no lifers think is best for them.
Don't take this the wrong way but,
I Am part of that 1% haha but, really its more then that, its more like 10 maybe even 20%..
Everyone should strive to become that "1/10/20%" because eventually you will get there just like anyone else, with that said what i propose is laterally that last possible nerf you could give air short of removing them from the game, You could almost consider this a "pitty nerf"😉
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
only thing air has goin? really? no cuz counter air doesnt kill buildings. but counter anything else will. air costs mainly supply. everything else is closer to even cost of both. killing 150 cost harvesters doesnt hurt as much as losing the third or fourth generator. it is a fact that the cost of air compared to what it can kill and dodge is a huge mismatch. supply is much easier to get so losing an air army and harvesters do alot less to take someone down compared to losing one or two generators. also you need to think about maps that have ridiculous choke points and chasms. im supposed to hide 30 pop of counter air the whole game so i dont get air bum rushed and killed in seconds. wow that was hard to type.... ya you guys need to get your heads outta the sand. no one cares that you are on the tallest sand dune. your head is still in the sand. i love how they mince words and leave out crucial details to try to discredit. the signs of a falling empire. also of you are so good, why cant you deal with it? so 90% of players suffer so a couple can have fun?
PuffyTDBS wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
only thing air has goin? really? no cuz counter air doesnt kill buildings. but counter anything else will. air costs mainly supply. everything else is closer to even cost of both. killing 150 cost harvesters doesnt hurt as much as losing the third or fourth generator. it is a fact that the cost of air compared to what it can kill and dodge is a huge mismatch. supply is much easier to get so losing an air army and harvesters do alot less to take someone down compared to losing one or two generators. also you need to think about maps that have ridiculous choke points and chasms. im supposed to hide 30 pop of counter air the whole game so i dont get air bum rushed and killed in seconds. wow that was hard to type.... ya you guys need to get your heads outta the sand. no one cares that you are on the tallest sand dune. your head is still in the sand. i love how they mince words and leave out crucial details to try to discredit. the signs of a falling empire. also of you are so good, why cant you deal with it? so 90% of players suffer so a couple can have fun?
A week ago you agreed air was fine.

Who hurt you?
PuffyTDBS wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
Crazy thought but,
What if we just nerf the
Acceleration Speed of Air?...
This wouldn't change the effectiveness of Air/AA at the highest Level of play but would help the Noobs just a little bit by giving them a chance to land a leader power and maybe even catch the Air when the other (Noob) player just leaves his air idle,
Everyone seems to win but thats just my thought..
thats what ive been saying. these guys think justifying change or no change based off of the top 1% of matchmaking is how to bring the community back. its not. and the devs will always care more about the overall experience of their customers over what a few (for lack of a better term) no lifers think is best for them.
Don't take this the wrong way but,
I Am part of that 1% haha but, really its more then that, its more like 10 maybe even 20%..
Everyone should strive to become that "1/10/20%" because eventually you will get there just like anyone else, with that said what i propose is laterally that last possible nerf you could give air short of removing them from the game, You could almost consider this a "pitty nerf"😉
ya the top 1% is the top 20% now because everyone got bored of gettin hit by exploits and imbalance the last 8 months. thanks for proving my point. no ones playing dude. i got multiple accounts at all levels of ranked play. i play the sames guys 4to 5 times in a row. this used to only happen in diamond 5 and up. i never seen rematches in platinum until i got back on in october.
evils wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
only thing air has goin? really? no cuz counter air doesnt kill buildings. but counter anything else will. air costs mainly supply. everything else is closer to even cost of both. killing 150 cost harvesters doesnt hurt as much as losing the third or fourth generator. it is a fact that the cost of air compared to what it can kill and dodge is a huge mismatch. supply is much easier to get so losing an air army and harvesters do alot less to take someone down compared to losing one or two generators. also you need to think about maps that have ridiculous choke points and chasms. im supposed to hide 30 pop of counter air the whole game so i dont get air bum rushed and killed in seconds. wow that was hard to type.... ya you guys need to get your heads outta the sand. no one cares that you are on the tallest sand dune. your head is still in the sand. i love how they mince words and leave out crucial details to try to discredit. the signs of a falling empire. also of you are so good, why cant you deal with it? so 90% of players suffer so a couple can have fun?
A week ago you agreed air was fine.

Who hurt you?
i agreed anti air was fine. further testing reveals this games air is cheese. unsc far more than banished. no one hurt me, but its frustrating when 90 % of players go air and maps layout and cost disparity kill you. just think about how much less time and resources it costs to level and build air. harvesters are super cheap and half the upgrade cost. economy prevents having a positive exchange between an air mob, and literally anything else. it takes less time to micro air and less finger presses and thats an obvious imbalance.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
evils wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
There's not much justification in adding a power cost to a core unit. Just because something doesn't cost power doesn't mean it isn't expensive. The high mobility of air is almost the only thing they have going for them, but that advantage can be negated by micro and game knowledge.

You say you aren't concerned about air to ground interactions at the highest levels. That's where it matters most. Air has obvious counters and there is certainly such a thing as user error. Many people are displaying that they rely FAR too heavily on the All Units command. If you pull your counter away from your base and air swoops in you deserve to be punished.
only thing air has goin? really? no cuz counter air doesnt kill buildings. but counter anything else will. air costs mainly supply. everything else is closer to even cost of both. killing 150 cost harvesters doesnt hurt as much as losing the third or fourth generator. it is a fact that the cost of air compared to what it can kill and dodge is a huge mismatch. supply is much easier to get so losing an air army and harvesters do alot less to take someone down compared to losing one or two generators. also you need to think about maps that have ridiculous choke points and chasms. im supposed to hide 30 pop of counter air the whole game so i dont get air bum rushed and killed in seconds. wow that was hard to type.... ya you guys need to get your heads outta the sand. no one cares that you are on the tallest sand dune. your head is still in the sand. i love how they mince words and leave out crucial details to try to discredit. the signs of a falling empire. also of you are so good, why cant you deal with it? so 90% of players suffer so a couple can have fun?
A week ago you agreed air was fine.

Who hurt you?
i agreed anti air was fine. further testing reveals this games air is cheese. unsc far more than banished. no one hurt me, but its frustrating when 90 % of players go air and maps layout and cost disparity kill you. just think about how much less time and resources it costs to level and build air. harvesters are super cheap and half the upgrade cost. economy prevents having a positive exchange between an air mob, and literally anything else. it takes less time to micro air and less finger presses and thats an obvious imbalance.
If you still believe that air is OP after countless people have explained to you why it's not, there's no hope for you. Sorry.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
only thing air has goin? really? no cuz counter air doesnt kill buildings. but counter anything else will. air costs mainly supply. everything else is closer to even cost of both. killing 150 cost harvesters doesnt hurt as much as losing the third or fourth generator. it is a fact that the cost of air compared to what it can kill and dodge is a huge mismatch. supply is much easier to get so losing an air army and harvesters do alot less to take someone down compared to losing one or two generators. also you need to think about maps that have ridiculous choke points and chasms. im supposed to hide 30 pop of counter air the whole game so i dont get air bum rushed and killed in seconds. wow that was hard to type.... ya you guys need to get your heads outta the sand. no one cares that you are on the tallest sand dune. your head is still in the sand. i love how they mince words and leave out crucial details to try to discredit. the signs of a falling empire. also of you are so good, why cant you deal with it? so 90% of players suffer so a couple can have fun?
P.S.A. You can Edit your post to add more information if needed.

"Counter air doesnt kill buildings. but counter anything else will."
This is Wrong, AV is just as bad as AA At killing buildings and UNSC Anti-infantry Cant even attack building's lol.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
PuffyTDBS wrote:
only thing air has goin? really? no cuz counter air doesnt kill buildings. but counter anything else will. air costs mainly supply. everything else is closer to even cost of both. killing 150 cost harvesters doesnt hurt as much as losing the third or fourth generator. it is a fact that the cost of air compared to what it can kill and dodge is a huge mismatch. supply is much easier to get so losing an air army and harvesters do alot less to take someone down compared to losing one or two generators. also you need to think about maps that have ridiculous choke points and chasms. im supposed to hide 30 pop of counter air the whole game so i dont get air bum rushed and killed in seconds. wow that was hard to type.... ya you guys need to get your heads outta the sand. no one cares that you are on the tallest sand dune. your head is still in the sand. i love how they mince words and leave out crucial details to try to discredit. the signs of a falling empire. also of you are so good, why cant you deal with it? so 90% of players suffer so a couple can have fun?
P.S.A. You can Edit your post to add more information if needed.

"Counter air doesnt kill buildings. but counter anything else will."
This is Wrong, AV is just as bad as AA At killing buildings and UNSC Anti-infantry Cant even attack building's lol.
thats laughable dude. you really need to see a vid of a wolverine vs a hornet on building damage? right snipers dont hurt buildings or vehicles or air. but they can kill infantry with ease, without spam. snipers are balanced. build too many and you cant push. build too much air.... oh now im gonna just fly around mitigate most damage and hit a base as soon as i have an opening because ground units are at the mercy of the terrain. build all the wolverines or reavers you want pretty much every leader can leader power kill them with ease. air can crush buildings and counter air cant, air is cheaper because supply is easier to get and recover from losing harvesters faster. saying the only counter is to super micro against a horde that could be macro controlled is ridiculous. its unbalanced. make air hordes less effective, but dont diminish their singular capability.
FFs More Selective Reading.
You were claming that Any other counter is stronger then Anti-Air but in fact Anti-Vehicle and anti-Infantry are just as bad and this is by design.
We are NOT Talking about CORE Units.
FFs More Selective Reading.
You were claming that Any other counter is stronger then Anti-Air but in fact Anti-Vehicle and anti-Infantry are just as bad and this is by design.
We are NOT Talking about CORE Units.
you can counter infantry with more than snipers. your statement is a testament to the singlemindedness of this thread. hunters, cyclops, maruader, flamethrower all counter something and kill buildings. counter air is good damage wise but easy to eliminate. if you have to build counter air you are at a disadvantage bc they dont do damage to upgraded and defended bases. many maps layout makes the speed and jump ability of counter air worthless. and we are talking about all units in relation to air, the start of this thread talked about core more specifically. but yes the core inexpensiveness with the overall higher supply with lower power cost, adds up to an advantage. supply is easy to get. this is not just a stat issue. this is a issue that originated from the basis of this game. the game needs and has needed a total overhaul in relation to air defense and offense strategy, not just tactic. it is undeniable air requires less time managing than anything else. this adds up over the course of 10 to 15 mins to give air spam an astute and undeniable advantage early.
PuffyTDBS wrote:
FFs More Selective Reading.
You were claming that Any other counter is stronger then Anti-Air but in fact Anti-Vehicle and anti-Infantry are just as bad and this is by design.
We are NOT Talking about CORE Units.
you can counter infantry with more than snipers. your statement is a testament to the singlemindedness of this thread. hunters, cyclops, maruader, flamethrower all counter something and kill buildings. counter air is good damage wise but easy to eliminate. if you have to build counter air you are at a disadvantage bc they dont do damage to upgraded and defended bases. many maps layout makes the speed and jump ability of counter air worthless. and we are talking about all units in relation to air, the start of this thread talked about core more specifically. but yes the core inexpensiveness with the overall higher supply with lower power cost, adds up to an advantage. supply is easy to get. this is not just a stat issue. this is a issue that originated from the basis of this game. the game needs and has needed a total overhaul in relation to air defense and offense strategy, not just tactic. it is undeniable air requires less time managing than anything else. this adds up over the course of 10 to 15 mins to give air spam an astute and undeniable advantage early.
You're talking about Soft Counters
Im talking about Hard Counters
because usual when someone says "Counter Units"
These are the ones they're talking about unless its specified but this is all semantics and is just a case of misunderstanding but, regardless you're still wrong for various reasons but i don't feel like echoing what others have said, you're wrong about something that hasn't been mention before..

"Supply is easy to get. this is not just a stat issue. this is a issue that originated from the basis of this game."

This is not true, in fact it was exactly the opposite,
The Diminishing Returns was far to great before,and made it vary difficult to Rebuild after getting wiped from ether from Leader Powers or just getting caught Out of Position
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