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[Locked] Appeal to 343, Dont Buff Anti Air

OP THEWALL766

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PuffyTDBS wrote:
air is more than prevalent. something needs to be changed, just not buffing anti air, that makes another imbalance. air should cost a significant amount of power. this would solve it. air spam can easily overcome counters on most maps. and a few maps air is unbeatable from the ground. harvesters cost less and production is upped faster, when you kill harvesters you do alot less damage than killing one generator. make air cost power and raise the cost of harvesters incrementally like generators. problem solved. air has more microing ease than anything, its the cheapest to build, and can didge leader powers. its op. maybe not so bad at higher skill levels, but we arent debating that. the debate really is the skill required to micro air and manage the economy is much lower than any other strategy. add in speed disparity that negates half of anti air damage, and ridiculous terrian on all maps, air has no equal. add power cost, increase price of harvesters per building built.
maybe a little power but only because power gens and extractors actually don't have diminishing returns like supply so air is in theory MORE costly just because of it. That means if you mass air, you need more supply pads with the cost of diminishing returns where 1xsupply creats 7 supply a sec, 2xsupply pads create 12, 3xsupply create 18, and 4xsupply create 23 while power remain constant at 6, 12, 18, ect.
So ive been learning yap yap and I want to share the most recent loss I have against mass air. I played the game today 30 November and it was a loss on bed rock if you want to find it in my game history.

I opened with wagons and grunt heavies where he opened with marines. I was super sloppy with my micro early game and I pretty much chases around a marine ball for the first 5-6 minutes while we both teched up. I never tried to push him because the chill aura around the turrets along with the ice barrier would have literally stopped me dead at his base. I also figured he was going to make a few cryo troopers but this was my mistake on not scouting.

By 8 minutes I assumed I already had the L since he should have been locked down with kodiacks and getting ready to run through me with hogs while I had just bought my second base. The marines running around on my side completely prevented me from expanding and no matter what I did I could not catch the marines. This is when I started to see him try and mass air. Again I couldn't push because artillery, the ice nodes , and the ice barriers literally kept me from even walking to his side of the field.

by 12 or so minutes he had me down to one base with the air preventing me from leaving my base until I got a shield and 2 turrets up. Once I got those up however, he was deterred enough that I felt like I could leave my base and defend an expansion. My goal was to get a shield and 2 turrets up here also and try to get locust pumping. Right now I had about 17 heavy grunts, 8 riders, 3 wagons, the heros, and a mix of support air. I only had the riders because of the grunt unit drop at yaps 10 o'clock. Finally I was able to catch him out in the open trying to expo snipe me and between my methane party and grunt dome, I was able to do a full army wipe while losing only 20 units. This is where I got too confident.

I tried to kill his expansion while completely underestimating the pile of cash and the speed he could reproduce his army. On top of that, I literally didn't even touch his base until a minute into my attack because infantry units freeze absurdly quick. buy the time I destroyed his forward base, he was already knocking down my expansion with a near full air army. I tried to continue to press but again, I literally froze right in the middle of the field. Keep in mind, I had plenty of shrouds, 4-5 IIRC.

He took out both of my bases and I sat in the middle of the field frozen with a near full pop army while the loss timer ticked to zero. It was an enormously frustrating game, especially due to how much I preach about how AA doesn't need a buff. I want to share the lessons I tried to take away from the engagement so we can all get better and dealing with air.

1) I had no reavers
Yap Yaps grunts in methane are amazing units, I love them, but they are slow. While they shred air in a direct engagement, they are not mobile and they freeze way too quickly. I should have done more of a complete transition to locust reaver with air support in the end.

2) I did not split my units
this one really bugged me, I left no units at either of my bases to defend. If I actually transitioned to reavers, I could have left 3 under each shield and the air army wouldn't have been able to park and sit at each base with no repercussions. It would have left me plenty of army space to will with locust, wagons, heroes, support, and reavers or walk around the map with out having to need to double time back to my base.

3) I didn't scout.
Self explanatory, I had no idea what his production looked like until it was too late, I was too far out of position and I lost because of it.

4) No locust
I should have built 4-5 locust and sat on top of the ramp and sniped his base instead of charging in head first only to take all of the ice right in the face/pride

Things I want to complain about: The freeze aura around the nodes, turrets, artillery shells, and ice blocks is absurdly big and very effective. I feel like a main infantry unit shouldn't freeze mid way though capturing a node.

My wagon + grunts couldn't catch a marine ball. I don't know if this is intended or if I'm just bad, but if yap yap doesn't have suicide grunts, he should at least be able to catch up to an infantry army.
Aa is good the way it is right now if it got nerfed then air wouldn’t be viable anymore and then 343 will have to buff air so really buffing anti air would most likely mess up the balance as air already gets countered by other air, infantry that can attack air units and aa so really by buffing aa will ruin air and restrict what you can use as we all want to win and when air basically gets abandoned then so will aa as there won’t be a reason to use it when there is almost no air units well besides support units those at always helpful plus no matter what there is always going to be complaints about air so really there isn’t a solution for making them more balanced which I don’t see as being possible as they are pretty balanced
Aa is good the way it is right now if it got nerfed then air wouldn’t be viable anymore and then 343 will have to buff air so really buffing anti air would most likely mess up the balance as air already gets countered by other air, infantry that can attack air units and aa so really by buffing aa will ruin air and restrict what you can use as we all want to win and when air basically gets abandoned then so will aa as there won’t be a reason to use it when there is almost no air units well besides support units those at always helpful plus no matter what there is always going to be complaints about air so really there isn’t a solution for making them more balanced which I don’t see as being possible as they are pretty balanced
This thread was from November-ish, before the last balance patch.
Although Wall's videos should never be forgotten, the devs did decide not to buff AA and less people complain about it now.
We failed aa is getting buffed but at least they didn’t buff aa dps
You make strong points but I do think AA needed a very very very slight buff (gasp)

they just needed the slight HP buff to make them more robust in battle

really disappointed forge was untouched in these notes, maybe with AV great again he won't be such a huge problem
You make strong points but I do think AA needed a very very very slight buff (gasp)
they just needed the slight HP buff to make them more robust in battle

really disappointed forge was untouched in these notes, maybe with AV great again he won't be such a huge problem
I’m going to say something that will make a lot of people angry. I don’t think forge is that broken. I think the hog is a bit tanky but I think his superiority stems from quick tech hogs being so good and he has the best eco along with the buff from he forge hog. I’m willing to wait and see what happens with air. I think airs biggest problem is that it under performs against core vehicle. I have never really run into the issues that some people complain about with mass air
About time 343 buffing AA. All I see every single game is mass hornet or mass banshee still.
Joey2552 wrote:
About time 343 buffing AA. All I see every single game is mass hornet or mass banshee still.
Did you not read/watch anything in the first post? If you lose to mass air it is 100% your/your team's fault. Air is the easiest army comp to beat, you just have to prepare and play accordingly.
Joey2552 wrote:
About time 343 buffing AA. All I see every single game is mass hornet or mass banshee still.
Did you not read/watch anything in the first post? If you lose to mass air it is 100% your/your team's fault. Air is the easiest army comp to beat, you just have to prepare and play accordingly.
Yeah I did. Heard it all before though. I'm not going to reply anymore as this discussion does not need anymore oxygen.
Joey2552 wrote:
About time 343 buffing AA. All I see every single game is mass hornet or mass banshee still.
I play 3s at the champion level and I play team war for lols as random all and I have never seen this issue. I genuinely don’t understand what people mean when they say that it is every game. Core vehicles are the meta right now and to not play them is almost a guaranteed loss aside from a good early rush or air from either Deci, Late game Anders, or Kinsano
THEWALL766 wrote:
You make strong points but I do think AA needed a very very very slight buff (gasp)
they just needed the slight HP buff to make them more robust in battle

really disappointed forge was untouched in these notes, maybe with AV great again he won't be such a huge problem
I’m going to say something that will make a lot of people angry. I don’t think forge is that broken. I think the hog is a bit tanky but I think his superiority stems from quick tech hogs being so good and he has the best eco along with the buff from he forge hog. I’m willing to wait and see what happens with air. I think airs biggest problem is that it under performs against core vehicle. I have never really run into the issues that some people complain about with mass air
I don’t think forge is broken he really isn’t and people really get triggered so easily and the hog isn’t the best hero so besides hog rushing in don’t know why people complain about forge
THEWALL766 wrote:
You make strong points but I do think AA needed a very very very slight buff (gasp)
they just needed the slight HP buff to make them more robust in battle

really disappointed forge was untouched in these notes, maybe with AV great again he won't be such a huge problem
I’m going to say something that will make a lot of people angry. I don’t think forge is that broken. I think the hog is a bit tanky but I think his superiority stems from quick tech hogs being so good and he has the best eco along with the buff from he forge hog. I’m willing to wait and see what happens with air. I think airs biggest problem is that it under performs against core vehicle. I have never really run into the issues that some people complain about with mass air
I don’t think forge is broken he really isn’t and people really get triggered so easily and the hog isn’t the best hero so besides hog rushing in don’t know why people complain about forge
Forge is the indesputible best leader in ones currently because of rolling eco, the forge hog, the buff he can give to warthogs, and finally his grizzlies. He isn’t broken to the level that he was in season 5, but no one plays the meta like forge does.
THEWALL766 wrote:
Joey2552 wrote:
About time 343 buffing AA. All I see every single game is mass hornet or mass banshee still.
I play 3s at the champion level and I play team war for lols as random all and I have never seen this issue. I genuinely don’t understand what people mean when they say that it is every game. Core vehicles are the meta right now and to not play them is almost a guaranteed loss aside from a good early rush or air from either Deci, Late game Anders, or Kinsano
You forgot Yapyap!
I guess they didn't listen to ya, they buffed AA... I'm sorry brother
I guess they didn't listen to ya, they buffed AA... I'm sorry brother
Thanks man! Some days your the master chief, sometimes your the grunt. Its not a defeat, its just another obstacle to overcome. As much as the hog meta bores me, I can deal with it for another patch.
THEWALL766 wrote:
I guess they didn't listen to ya, they buffed AA... I'm sorry brother
Thanks man! Some days your the master chief, sometimes your the grunt. Its not a defeat, its just another obstacle to overcome. As much as the hog meta bores me, I can deal with it for another patch.
You know it buddy!
Anyone with more evidence please post here
Anyone with more evidence please post here
AA doesn't need a buff. Water is wet.

If they haven't learned this by now, they never will. The game is just going to have to suffer for it.
Keep the AoE and Health buff, so massed air in super late game can be better countered , but nerf the single target dmg of A.A by at least 10 -20 % so small Groups of Support air or small assault Teams are still viable .
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