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[Locked] Appeal to 343, Dont Buff Anti Air

OP THEWALL766

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So, let me see if I get it, you posted a video where the Wingman Hornets stamp and it's the player's fault, nothing wrong with air. Is not like you can ensure your T3 spam by having seige turrets or a competent ally keeping the enemy away.

Seeing the videos, I do agree that T2 air is bad, but an upgrade shouldn't be able to reverse things on Hornets favour, so yeah, maybe AA would not need a buff, as long as Wingman is kicked to the same spot that Plasma Torpedo was.
What video were you watching???? The wingman hornets didn't stomp. Only 3 were barely alive which is close enough that micro and leader powers would sway the outcome either way. I'd almost call it a draw if it wasn't for the fact that the wingman hornets cost 2150 more supply and 730 more power! That would allow for reinforcements 1 and 4 more mechs. In a real game those funds would've gone towards more generators or an extra base or both, building up the supporting economy which would've led to more upgrades, quicker. The mechs clearly had that.
30 WH vs 16 Hogsr + 8 Wolvs, there were more than 6 Hornets left
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
Appreciate your efforts and tests, but I still think air (especially Decimus Banshees upgraded) vs wolverines are problematic in games when leader powers are involved. This debate has gone on for a long time, but the fact that it has been such a point of contention, I personally believe, shows that there is something wrong with the mechanic. Maybe I am jaded against Decimus Banshees because that is the air I see most, but I think adding an AoE will help against clumps of banshees or hornets before they can flee. The hit and run nature of air is what gets it, as they can widdle away at your forces with minimal losses, while the anti-air can't diminish the air numbers in a significant manner. Sure, air can't take down a base very quickly, but air sure can dominate the field and suffocate you, especially when used with leader powers. Anyway, I know many disagree, but I wanted to respond to this plea since I am in favor of the adjustment. Not everyone on this forum is against the anti-air 'buff'.
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

So, let me see if I get it, you posted a video where the Wingman Hornets stamp and it's the player's fault, nothing wrong with air. Is not like you can ensure your T3 spam by having seige turrets or a competent ally keeping the enemy away.

Seeing the videos, I do agree that T2 air is bad, but an upgrade shouldn't be able to reverse things on Hornets favour, so yeah, maybe AA would not need a buff, as long as Wingman is kicked to the same spot that Plasma Torpedo was.
Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Breezy, I know you (and others) think AA is fine, I do not. Maybe I am not as good as you guys, or have as much time to play as you guys, but I have always felt the interaction was not fine. There is definitely a problem with Decimus Banshees, no doubt, so we are in agreement there. I still am of the opinion that if not looking at it in a vacuum, that there is a problem with AA in how games play out, at least to me and my friends. Maybe, I don't have the best handle on it at the moment, in light of the Voridus, Pavium, and most definitely Colony problems, that I don't even see widespread air usage, but I still believe there are problems. Not saying air is OP, but to me and my friends, AA doesn't work like it should.
The only reason I can think AA is getting buffed is because of Decimus's Banshees but that is a leader problem that needs rework, not Banshees or AA.
Great and thorough test @TheWall766! Glad to see someone who goes out of their way to prove a point and goes farther than just claiming,"Uhhh yea. My, like, uhhhhhhhhh 5 canon fodder killed 10 upgraded hornets. I don't have any proof I just saw it happen" the video as concrete evidence is very thorough and the fact you went through the effort to record it is awesome. Keep up the good work!
So, let me see if I get it, you posted a video where the Wingman Hornets stamp and it's the player's fault, nothing wrong with air. Is not like you can ensure your T3 spam by having seige turrets or a competent ally keeping the enemy away.

Seeing the videos, I do agree that T2 air is bad, but an upgrade shouldn't be able to reverse things on Hornets favour, so yeah, maybe AA would not need a buff, as long as Wingman is kicked to the same spot that Plasma Torpedo was.
What video were you watching???? The wingman hornets didn't stomp. Only 3 were barely alive which is close enough that micro and leader powers would sway the outcome either way. I'd almost call it a draw if it wasn't for the fact that the wingman hornets cost 2150 more supply and 730 more power! That would allow for reinforcements 1 and 4 more mechs. In a real game those funds would've gone towards more generators or an extra base or both, building up the supporting economy which would've led to more upgrades, quicker. The mechs clearly had that.
30 WH vs 16 Hogsr + 8 Wolvs, there were more than 6 Hornets left
Even still, the Hornets got rekt either way.
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
Breezy, I know you (and others) think AA is fine, I do not. Maybe I am not as good as you guys, or have as much time to play as you guys, but I have always felt the interaction was not fine. There is definitely a problem with Decimus Banshees, no doubt, so we are in agreement there. I still am of the opinion that if not looking at it in a vacuum, that there is a problem with AA in how games play out, at least to me and my friends. Maybe, I don't have the best handle on it at the moment, in light of the Voridus, Pavium, and most definitely Colony problems, that I don't even see widespread air usage, but I still believe there are problems. Not saying air is OP, but to me and my friends, AA doesn't work like it should.
I agree that vacuum does not equal the same results in gameplay, but these results do show that at least in a head to head interaction then AA does it's job well. What shifts the pendulum is player skill. Because it is player skill that puts Air over AA I believe it is not a "buff/nerf this unit" but more of a "players need to be educated on how to combat it".

Though I am glad we agree Deci Banshees are stupid strong lol
DA Cleric wrote:
Appreciate your efforts and tests, but I still think air (especially Decimus Banshees upgraded) vs wolverines are problematic in games when leader powers are involved. This debate has gone on for a long time, but the fact that it has been such a point of contention, I personally believe, shows that there is something wrong with the mechanic. Maybe I am jaded against Decimus Banshees because that is the air I see most, but I think adding an AoE will help against clumps of banshees or hornets before they can flee. The hit and run nature of air is what gets it, as they can widdle away at your forces with minimal losses, while the anti-air can't diminish the air numbers in a significant manner. Sure, air can't take down a base very quickly, but air sure can dominate the field and suffocate you, especially when used with leader powers. Anyway, I know many disagree, but I wanted to respond to this plea since I am in favor of the adjustment. Not everyone on this forum is against the anti-air 'buff'.
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

So, let me see if I get it, you posted a video where the Wingman Hornets stamp and it's the player's fault, nothing wrong with air. Is not like you can ensure your T3 spam by having seige turrets or a competent ally keeping the enemy away.

Seeing the videos, I do agree that T2 air is bad, but an upgrade shouldn't be able to reverse things on Hornets favour, so yeah, maybe AA would not need a buff, as long as Wingman is kicked to the same spot that Plasma Torpedo was.
Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
DA Cleric wrote:
So, let me see if I get it, you posted a video where the Wingman Hornets stamp and it's the player's fault, nothing wrong with air. Is not like you can ensure your T3 spam by having seige turrets or a competent ally keeping the enemy away.

Seeing the videos, I do agree that T2 air is bad, but an upgrade shouldn't be able to reverse things on Hornets favour, so yeah, maybe AA would not need a buff, as long as Wingman is kicked to the same spot that Plasma Torpedo was.
Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
Playing with randoms is a big mess that no tinkering of gameplay will fix.

As for the leaders you listed the only one could hold off two players in high level play is Voridus, who is stupidly broken right now.
DA Cleric wrote:
So, let me see if I get it, you posted a video where the Wingman Hornets stamp and it's the player's fault, nothing wrong with air. Is not like you can ensure your T3 spam by having seige turrets or a competent ally keeping the enemy away.

Seeing the videos, I do agree that T2 air is bad, but an upgrade shouldn't be able to reverse things on Hornets favour, so yeah, maybe AA would not need a buff, as long as Wingman is kicked to the same spot that Plasma Torpedo was.
Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
Playing with randoms is a big mess that no tinkering of gameplay will fix.

As for the leaders you listed the only one could hold off two players in high level play is Voridus, who is stupidly broken right now.
Could we leave that "High Level Play" out? For starts you surely don't play with randoms at team high level. Second is that looking in some champ's service records I noticed that if they're not abusing Colony, they're abusing Voridus' and if not they simply spam core vehicles.
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
TFH rush units early game or rush T2 and get TFH Snipers/Hogs+Hornets, those are the ones I've seen working (though, playing randoms)
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
TFH rush units early game or rush T2 and get TFH Snipers/Hogs+Hornets, those are the ones I've seen working (though, playing randoms)
Ill work with you. Lets solve this problem together. They girl that I'm trying to talk to wont be around this weekend so I have the time. What do you want to see tested in terms of Air and AA. What are your primary concerns with Air as a whole.
DA Cleric wrote:
So, let me see if I get it, you posted a video where the Wingman Hornets stamp and it's the player's fault, nothing wrong with air. Is not like you can ensure your T3 spam by having seige turrets or a competent ally keeping the enemy away.

Seeing the videos, I do agree that T2 air is bad, but an upgrade shouldn't be able to reverse things on Hornets favour, so yeah, maybe AA would not need a buff, as long as Wingman is kicked to the same spot that Plasma Torpedo was.
Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
Playing with randoms is a big mess that no tinkering of gameplay will fix.

As for the leaders you listed the only one could hold off two players in high level play is Voridus, who is stupidly broken right now.
Could we leave that "High Level Play" out? For starts you surely don't play with randoms at team high level. Second is that looking in some champ's service records I noticed that if they're not abusing Colony, they're abusing Voridus' and if not they simply spam core vehicles.
By "high level play" I don't mean Champions, because ever since Forgehog that rank has been a joke, too many strats or exploits to abuse.

I only referenced randoms because you brought them up.
So, let me see if I get it, you posted a video where the Wingman Hornets stamp and it's the player's fault, nothing wrong with air. Is not like you can ensure your T3 spam by having seige turrets or a competent ally keeping the enemy away.

Seeing the videos, I do agree that T2 air is bad, but an upgrade shouldn't be able to reverse things on Hornets favour, so yeah, maybe AA would not need a buff, as long as Wingman is kicked to the same spot that Plasma Torpedo was.
What video were you watching???? The wingman hornets didn't stomp. Only 3 were barely alive which is close enough that micro and leader powers would sway the outcome either way. I'd almost call it a draw if it wasn't for the fact that the wingman hornets cost 2150 more supply and 730 more power! That would allow for reinforcements 1 and 4 more mechs. In a real game those funds would've gone towards more generators or an extra base or both, building up the supporting economy which would've led to more upgrades, quicker. The mechs clearly had that.
30 WH vs 16 Hogsr + 8 Wolvs, there were more than 6 Hornets left
Oh well of course the hornets won that! That was 120 pop air vs 80 pop vehicles!!! They're are supposed to win! Again though look at the price difference:

Air --> 9750 supply, 3500 power (reinforcements, reinforcements, T3)
Vehicle --> 5200 supply, 1520 power

Difference -->4550 supply, 1980 power

The cost is INSANE! You could practically buy two of those 80 pop armies for that cost. You could buy build every base on the map with that money. You could certainly buy reinforces and get more AA in there too. No, it's not even close. The vehicles are way more combat and cost effective.

How do you even let your opponent get tech 3 and reinforcers 1 & 2 while you're still at 80 pop unupgraded vehicles? If you find yourself in that situation then you have earned the loss. It wasn't air units that gave them a much better economy, it was your play skill.
Thank you for this, really informative. Any chance of one with vulture spam just out of interest.
The vultures would likely take out a base with their y ability before getting taken down, at least at 120 pop. The vultures themselves are very fragile though and drop like flies when caught in the open by AA. I'll probably test it with TheWall later today.
Thank you for this, really informative. Any chance of one with vulture spam just out of interest.
The vultures would likely take out a base with their y ability before getting taken down, at least at 120 pop. The vultures themselves are very fragile though and drop like flies when caught in the open by AA. I'll probably test it with TheWall later today.
Vultures are deadly and can destroy a large army but their Y ability is slow, their build is slow, their cost is high, and easy to be killed. Vultures are not a problem unless you are against Combat Salvage but that will always be the players fault for building. I will say they are like Goliaths and will destroy your base if they can reach it.
I think there is a solution for everyone to be happy. Buff nothing, but have an 8% health addition t3 upgrade available that cost 1000 power to the wolves. 800 power t3 upgrade option for the reavers with a 6% health boost. That is a small buff for the cost of power but I don't think it would make air useless; especially mid game since there is no change there.
I think there is a solution for everyone to be happy. Buff nothing, but have an 8% health addition t3 upgrade available that cost 1000 power to the wolves. 800 power t3 upgrade option for the reavers with a 6% health boost. That is a small buff for the cost of power but I don't think it would make air useless; especially mid game since there is no change there.
that is a great idea or even have an upgrade that slightly increases AoE range.
I think there is a solution for everyone to be happy. Buff nothing, but have an 8% health addition t3 upgrade available that cost 1000 power to the wolves. 800 power t3 upgrade option for the reavers with a 6% health boost. That is a small buff for the cost of power but I don't think it would make air useless; especially mid game since there is no change there.
that is a great idea or even have an upgrade that slightly increases AoE range.
I think something of the sort would make people happy. It will cost a power investment to those who upgrade it, still not making air completely useless, perhaps giving opponents advantages on both sides of the coin.
I think there is a solution for everyone to be happy. Buff nothing, but have an 8% health addition t3 upgrade available that cost 1000 power to the wolves. 800 power t3 upgrade option for the reavers with a 6% health boost. That is a small buff for the cost of power but I don't think it would make air useless; especially mid game since there is no change there.
that is a great idea or even have an upgrade that slightly increases AoE range.
I think something of the sort would make people happy. It will cost a power investment to those who upgrade it, still not making air completely useless, perhaps giving opponents advantages on both sides of the coin.
1000 power upgrade should actually go to Reaver if anything. Reavers are already headstrong and more affordable to wolfs.
I think an AoE buff with a damage nerf to compensate would be the most practical way to get them to work. Part of their issue is that they focus fire and waste too many shots on a single target. Buffing their AoE could fix that, but buffing damage as well or even just leaving it the same would be overkill. They already do massive damage to air so stacking an AoE buff to it would break them.
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