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[Locked] Appeal to 343, Dont Buff Anti Air

OP THEWALL766

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I think an AoE buff with a damage nerf to compensate would be the most practical way to get them to work. Part of their issue is that they focus fire and waste too many shots on a single target. Buffing their AoE could fix that, but buffing damage as well or even just leaving it the same would be overkill. They already do massive damage to air so stacking an AoE buff to it would break them.
What about the t3 slight health upgrade? Is that a reasonable option?
I think an AoE buff with a damage nerf to compensate would be the most practical way to get them to work. Part of their issue is that they focus fire and waste too many shots on a single target. Buffing their AoE could fix that, but buffing damage as well or even just leaving it the same would be overkill. They already do massive damage to air so stacking an AoE buff to it would break them.
What about the t3 slight health upgrade? Is that a reasonable option?
I don't know about a health upgrade but maybe a slight speed upgrade so it can better keep up with redline hornets or boundless fury banshees
THEWALL766 wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
TFH rush units early game or rush T2 and get TFH Snipers/Hogs+Hornets, those are the ones I've seen working (though, playing randoms)
Ill work with you. Lets solve this problem together. They girl that I'm trying to talk to wont be around this weekend so I have the time. What do you want to see tested in terms of Air and AA. What are your primary concerns with Air as a whole.
-I'd like to see the Locust + Reaver test you mentioned before.
-I think that a test on buffed air (Colony, Decimus, Kinsano and Jerome)
-Not only core air mass, but with some support, such as healers, Shroud and maybe Ravens or stuffed Phantoms. (Not sure on those last though)
DA Cleric wrote:
Appreciate your efforts and tests, but I still think air (especially Decimus Banshees upgraded) vs wolverines are problematic in games when leader powers are involved. This debate has gone on for a long time, but the fact that it has been such a point of contention, I personally believe, shows that there is something wrong with the mechanic. Maybe I am jaded against Decimus Banshees because that is the air I see most, but I think adding an AoE will help against clumps of banshees or hornets before they can flee. The hit and run nature of air is what gets it, as they can widdle away at your forces with minimal losses, while the anti-air can't diminish the air numbers in a significant manner. Sure, air can't take down a base very quickly, but air sure can dominate the field and suffocate you, especially when used with leader powers. Anyway, I know many disagree, but I wanted to respond to this plea since I am in favor of the adjustment. Not everyone on this forum is against the anti-air 'buff'.
No one is arguing that Decimus Banshees aren't over powered or broken. They are. Full pop Deci Banshees will almost certainly need to be nerfed. However, that has nothing to do with the units themselves and entirely to do with Decimus' passives.

As far as this argument is concerned, vanilla air units are 100% not broken or OP. Multiple tests have confirmed that. If you think otherwise, I would like evidence to be submitted for everyone to review. Show us proof that air is OP.
I am merely stating my opinion, and not stating that it is a fact. The whole purpose of my post was to say that there are still people who do not agree with the proposition that 343 not touch anti air. I just didn't want it to seem like the entire community has this same thought. I am sorry I disagree with you, but it is my opinion. I try to respect everyone else's opinion, even when I don't agree. I am not attempting to debunk anyone's argument, I am just saying there is not unanimous opinion on that anti-air doesn't deserve some attention. I assume they have data that shows air rolls more often than not... whether that is some skill imbalance, some degree of OP, or just Decimus swaying things, I do not know, but there has to be some correlation in the data for them to believe it warrants being addressed. I hope the change to AA is not a result of forum opinions. But if it is a response to people 'complaining' because they 'don't know how to combat air properly', then I think there is a flaw in their balancing process, but it would further reinforce the need for someone like me to post that I do not believe AA is fine how it is.

This being said, I do try to factor in what people with other opinions say regarding their ideas on how to combat things, and I do appreciate videos that others have posted highlighting points of contention. I don't devolve into name-calling, talking down, or being closed minded, I actively try to take alternative views into consideration in my play-style. So, I do appreciate the constructive posts that you and others make. I just am in the opposite camp which should be perfectly acceptable.
I think an AoE buff with a damage nerf to compensate would be the most practical way to get them to work. Part of their issue is that they focus fire and waste too many shots on a single target. Buffing their AoE could fix that, but buffing damage as well or even just leaving it the same would be overkill. They already do massive damage to air so stacking an AoE buff to it would break them.
I would get behind this... the wasted shots seem (at least in my limited experience) one of the biggest problems. I think it is a targeting issue, not as much a damage output issue. I don't want air to be pointless, but I think wolves are close to pointless now... I feel there are better ways of countering air than wolves and reavers right now. But I don't know the answer... but I think AoE would be helpful, and would be willing to trade a slight damage decrease to get larger AoE... the total damage done to a mass of air would be higher since it affects multiple units, where the damage against a condor or vulture would be decreased... maybe just decrease damage against T2 air? I think the interaction against T3 air is fine.
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
As far as this argument is concerned, vanilla air units are 100% not broken or OP. Multiple tests have confirmed that. If you think otherwise, I would like evidence to be submitted for everyone to review. Show us proof that air is OP.
I am merely stating my opinion, and not stating that it is a fact. The whole purpose of my post was to say that there are still people who do not agree with the proposition that 343 not touch anti air. I just didn't want it to seem like the entire community has this same thought. I am sorry I disagree with you, but it is my opinion. I try to respect everyone else's opinion, even when I don't agree. I am not attempting to debunk anyone's argument, I am just saying there is not unanimous opinion on that anti-air doesn't deserve some attention. I assume they have data that shows air rolls more often than not... whether that is some skill imbalance, some degree of OP, or just Decimus swaying things, I do not know, but there has to be some correlation in the data for them to believe it warrants being addressed. I hope the change to AA is not a result of forum opinions. But if it is a response to people 'complaining' because they 'don't know how to combat air properly', then I think there is a flaw in their balancing process, but it would further reinforce the need for someone like me to post that I do not believe AA is fine how it is.

This being said, I do try to factor in what people with other opinions say regarding their ideas on how to combat things, and I do appreciate videos that others have posted highlighting points of contention. I don't devolve into name-calling, talking down, or being closed minded, I actively try to take alternative views into consideration in my play-style. So, I do appreciate the constructive posts that you and others make. I just am in the opposite camp which should be perfectly acceptable.
Let's get one thing out of the way, not all "opinions" are created equal, at least not the way you're using the word. Our theory that AA does not require a buff is backed by empirical evidence (our numerous 'AA vs air' tests). Your theory is only backed by colloquial evidence (personal experience). The problem here is that our personal experiences can vary widely, such as how me and my friends never seen to have nearly a big an issue with mass air as some other players. Empirical evidence, however, is fact. It's quantifiable. It's truth. When 20 hornets fight 8 wolves and 16 hogs they lose. Fact. We have yet to see a single shred of empirical evidence that suggests vanilla air units are over powered. We're not talking about your favorite color or ice cream flavor here. There is no respect for baseless arguments for a quantifiable problem.
Show me evidence to support your claims and we can have a reasonable discussion. Otherwise, accept that the vast amount of evidenced supporting "AA is okay" and that air is not the problem.

If you and your friends are personally having a problem with air, we can help with that. Here is a thread that you should take a look at. You can find some great tips on how to fight mass air. If you want to run some practice rounds our Spartan Company, Fair And Balanced Play, would be happy to help. Specifically, you can ask me, TheWall766, or BreezyStarfish1 and we can run customs. We'll even be testing more AA vs air engagements later today if you wanna join. Perhaps we can include specific examples of problems you've had and run through a proper response.
DA Cleric wrote:
I think an AoE buff with a damage nerf to compensate would be the most practical way to get them to work. Part of their issue is that they focus fire and waste too many shots on a single target. Buffing their AoE could fix that, but buffing damage as well or even just leaving it the same would be overkill. They already do massive damage to air so stacking an AoE buff to it would break them.
I would get behind this... the wasted shots seem (at least in my limited experience) one of the biggest problems. I think it is a targeting issue, not as much a damage output issue. I don't want air to be pointless, but I think wolves are close to pointless now... I feel there are better ways of countering air than wolves and reavers right now. But I don't know the answer... but I think AoE would be helpful, and would be willing to trade a slight damage decrease to get larger AoE... the total damage done to a mass of air would be higher since it affects multiple units, where the damage against a condor or vulture would be decreased... maybe just decrease damage against T2 air? I think the interaction against T3 air is fine.
The problem with AoE damage is that it affects all numbers of air units, not just large ones. We you select a group of air units to attack a single target they always clunk up together, whether it's 5 hornets or 30. There is no way to single or "do more against mass air but not scarce air." That's why I'm hesitant with the AoE buff. I agree that it can help but without reducing the current damage as well it can easily be overkill.
THEWALL766 wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
TFH rush units early game or rush T2 and get TFH Snipers/Hogs+Hornets, those are the ones I've seen working (though, playing randoms)
Ill work with you. Lets solve this problem together. They girl that I'm trying to talk to wont be around this weekend so I have the time. What do you want to see tested in terms of Air and AA. What are your primary concerns with Air as a whole.
-I'd like to see the Locust + Reaver test you mentioned before.
-I think that a test on buffed air (Colony, Decimus, Kinsano and Jerome)
-Not only core air mass, but with some support, such as healers, Shroud and maybe Ravens or stuffed Phantoms. (Not sure on those last though)
We did do some tests with buffed air, spesifically Jerome/Colony/Decimus. I'll see if I can find those videos or if we can make new ones.
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
As far as this argument is concerned, vanilla air units are 100% not broken or OP. Multiple tests have confirmed that. If you think otherwise, I would like evidence to be submitted for everyone to review. Show us proof that air is OP.
I am merely stating my opinion, and not stating that it is a fact. The whole purpose of my post was to say that there are still people who do not agree with the proposition that 343 not touch anti air. I just didn't want it to seem like the entire community has this same thought. I am sorry I disagree with you, but it is my opinion. I try to respect everyone else's opinion, even when I don't agree. I am not attempting to debunk anyone's argument, I am just saying there is not unanimous opinion on that anti-air doesn't deserve some attention. I assume they have data that shows air rolls more often than not... whether that is some skill imbalance, some degree of OP, or just Decimus swaying things, I do not know, but there has to be some correlation in the data for them to believe it warrants being addressed. I hope the change to AA is not a result of forum opinions. But if it is a response to people 'complaining' because they 'don't know how to combat air properly', then I think there is a flaw in their balancing process, but it would further reinforce the need for someone like me to post that I do not believe AA is fine how it is.

This being said, I do try to factor in what people with other opinions say regarding their ideas on how to combat things, and I do appreciate videos that others have posted highlighting points of contention. I don't devolve into name-calling, talking down, or being closed minded, I actively try to take alternative views into consideration in my play-style. So, I do appreciate the constructive posts that you and others make. I just am in the opposite camp which should be perfectly acceptable.
Let's get one thing out of the way, not all "opinions" are created equal, at least not the way you're using the word. Our theory that AA does not require a buff is backed by empirical evidence (our numerous 'AA vs air' tests). Your theory is only backed by colloquial evidence (personal experience). The problem here is that our personal experiences can vary widely, such as how me and my friends never seen to have nearly a big an issue with mass air as some other players. Empirical evidence, however, is fact. It's quantifiable. It's truth. When 20 hornets fight 8 wolves and 16 hogs they lose. Fact. We have yet to see a single shred of empirical evidence that suggests vanilla air units are over powered. We're not talking about your favorite color or ice cream flavor here. There is no respect for baseless arguments for a quantifiable problem.
Show me evidence to support your claims and we can have a reasonable discussion. Otherwise, accept that the vast amount of evidenced supporting "AA is okay" and that air is not the problem.

If you and your friends are personally having a problem with air, we can help with that. Here is a thread that you should take a look at. You can find some great tips on how to fight mass air. If you want to run some practice rounds our Spartan Company, Fair And Balanced Play, would be happy to help. Specifically, you can ask me, TheWall766, or BreezyStarfish1 and we can run customs. We'll even be testing more AA vs air engagements later today if you wanna join. Perhaps we can include specific examples of problems you've had and run through a proper response.
Cleric out...
I think an AoE buff with a damage nerf to compensate would be the most practical way to get them to work. Part of their issue is that they focus fire and waste too many shots on a single target. Buffing their AoE could fix that, but buffing damage as well or even just leaving it the same would be overkill. They already do massive damage to air so stacking an AoE buff to it would break them.
What about the t3 slight health upgrade? Is that a reasonable option?
I don't know man. AA isn't particularly flimsy. Air is far more vulnerable. A well placed Mac blast can easily wipe out 40-50 pop of Banshees. I don't think I've ever seen it kill more than 4 or 5 wolves. The difference is that wolves don't clump up like air, which makes them less likely to die en mass from leader powers. Air on the other almost always clumps up while attacking. Yes they can dodge easier but if they get hit then it almost always hurts bad.
Vanilla air... I really love vanilla icecream
I think an AoE buff with a damage nerf to compensate would be the most practical way to get them to work. Part of their issue is that they focus fire and waste too many shots on a single target. Buffing their AoE could fix that, but buffing damage as well or even just leaving it the same would be overkill. They already do massive damage to air so stacking an AoE buff to it would break them.
What about the t3 slight health upgrade? Is that a reasonable option?
I don't know man. AA isn't particularly flimsy. Air is far more vulnerable. A well placed Mac blast can easily wipe out 40-50 pop of Banshees. I don't think I've ever seen it kill more than 4 or 5 wolves. The difference is that wolves don't clump up like air, which makes them less likely to die en mass from leader powers. Air on the other almost always clumps up while attacking. Yes they can dodge easier but if they get hit then it almost always hurts bad.
Very good point.
Vanilla air... I really love vanilla icecream
lol I'm just trying to make sure we're taking about normal air units, no passives. When you start factoring those in things start getting complicated. Especially Decimus and his Boundless Siphon.
Vanilla air... I really love vanilla icecream
lol I'm just trying to make sure we're taking about normal air units, no passives. When you start factoring those in things start getting complicated. Especially Decimus and his Boundless Siphon.
Yeah exactly, thats a separate issue all together.

Well Im gonna go get icecream now.
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
As far as this argument is concerned, vanilla air units are 100% not broken or OP. Multiple tests have confirmed that. If you think otherwise, I would like evidence to be submitted for everyone to review. Show us proof that air is OP.
Cleric out...
Oh man, DC put him in a body bag and DA zipped it up himself.
I think an AoE buff with a damage nerf to compensate would be the most practical way to get them to work. Part of their issue is that they focus fire and waste too many shots on a single target. Buffing their AoE could fix that, but buffing damage as well or even just leaving it the same would be overkill. They already do massive damage to air so stacking an AoE buff to it would break them.
What about the t3 slight health upgrade? Is that a reasonable option?
While wolfs are easy to kill, I must say their health is not the problem with AA but Focus fire. I would say give AA a T3 upgrade that deals a small bit of damage or increased AoE.
If anything did need buffed it's their health, not AoE and damage. Wolverines will not one shot a Vulture...
THEWALL766 wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
DA Cleric wrote:
You reference Decimus Banshees, which most agree are a little OP. Wouldn't that mean the problem is with Decimus and his passives rather than air and AA?

Getting to T3 by one teammate holding off a minimum of two enemies is highly unlikely. If you have a teammate that can do that you don't even need a T3 army. Additionally Siege Turrets are really strong but are also super expensive. I don't see how you can boom to T3 while also spamming Siege Turrets
Not as unlikely while paying randoms, trust me, it also depends the leader. Forge, Jerome, Pavium, Decimus and of course GooLord can hold the line fine, either with heroes or leader powers (passive or active)
How are you playing as Jerome and holding off two players?
We need the J-ro that you're using.
TFH rush units early game or rush T2 and get TFH Snipers/Hogs+Hornets, those are the ones I've seen working (though, playing randoms)
Ill work with you. Lets solve this problem together. They girl that I'm trying to talk to wont be around this weekend so I have the time. What do you want to see tested in terms of Air and AA. What are your primary concerns with Air as a whole.
-I'd like to see the Locust + Reaver test you mentioned before.
-I think that a test on buffed air (Colony, Decimus, Kinsano and Jerome)
-Not only core air mass, but with some support, such as healers, Shroud and maybe Ravens or stuffed Phantoms. (Not sure on those last though)
Okay, I can do that, Thank you for helping me out. I look forward to discussing after I post the results
THEWALL766 wrote:
Because for what ever reason my last video evidence did nothing to change the fact that many of you still think Air is too strong, I am going to try and post these small collections of tests showing the interactions of Air and AA units. My goal is not to change your mind, I genuinely don't care what you think. I'm just hoping that someone from the balance team can read these posts and decide that AA units are fine exactly where they are.

Test 1
20 Hornets vs 8 Wolves 9 Mechs20 Hornets vs 16 Hogs and 8 WolvesBaseline 80 pop v 80 Pop. The AA wins crushingly here. In both cases the Air tried to focus fire the AA which might seem like a good idea on the surface, however, when trying to focus fire, the Air units will try and bunch up which both increases the effectiveness of the splash of the AA and increases the chance of taking a 6 o'clock leader power right in the jaw

Cost of each army
Air --> 6500 supply
Vehicle --> 4350 supply, 1520 power, 5870 total (mech)
Vehicle --> 5200 supply, 1520 power, 6720 total (hog)

The vehicle army is significantly easier to fund since you are getting income from two different currencies.
"But Wall, I cant tech up if I'm using my power on wolverines"
While this is true, if your opponent committed to full banshees, you wont need to tech up because he will have lost his full army and you will still be at either 9 mantis or 14 wolverines to start attacking his base with some wolverines left over if he tries any more of that air nonsense

Test 2
25 Hornets vs 8 Wolves and 9 Mechs25 Hornets vs 16 Hogs and 9 Wolves100 pop air vs 80 pop Vehicle

While it is not a "crushing defeat" here, the vehicles still win, rather easily. The mechs still have 5 mantis while the warthogs have 11 warthogs. Still enough to harass a base with wolverines left over to kill any air units that might be newly build.

Cost of each army
Air --> 8125 supply, 750 power (reinforcements)
Vehicle --> 4350 supply, 1520 power, 5870 total (mech)
Vehicle --> 5200 supply, 1520 power, 6720 total (hog)

Test 3
20 Wingman Hornets vs 8 Wolves and 9 Mechs30 Hornets vs 16 Hogs and 8 WolverinesI'm sorry if you let your opponent get to tech 3 and max out his army, or get a t3 upgrade and 80 pop air, while you stay at t2 unupgraded everything, you got outplayed and there is no balance patch should be able to fix that.

Note: The Wingman Upgrade makes a HUGE difference in combat power

Cost of each army
Air --> 9750 supply, 3500 power (reinforcements, reinforcements, T3), 13250 total
Air -->6500 supply, 2250 power (t3, wingman), 8750 total
Vehicle --> 4350 supply, 1520 power, 5870 total (mech)
Vehicle --> 5200 supply, 1520 power, 6720 total (hog)

Bonus Test

Manatee and I were trying to discard our left over units so veterancy wouldn't skew test results. We wanted to see what would happen when a full air army attacked a base with 4 AA turrets and 4 wolves left behind on defense. All 25 of the wingman hornets died in the engagement while the base only lost 2 turrets and 1 wolverine.

Disclaimer: This test will be repeated with the Air being split around the base and the base without any Base Fortifications for the sake of consistency with the rest of testing.

All we wanted to do was to show you that it is infact possible to play defense against air units if you split your units, don't double tap the right bumper, and keep control of your units.

4 AA Turrets and 4 Wolves vs 25 Wingman HornetsPlans for Next test.

Reavers & locust v Hornets
Banished and UNSC Base Arrangements with AA for defense against Air

I look forward to an educated and civil discourse in the comments to follow.
Air will literally be unplayable now. But oh well.
THEWALL766 wrote:
Because for what ever reason my last video evidence did nothing to change the fact that many of you still think Air is too strong, I am going to try and post these small collections of tests showing the interactions of Air and AA units. My goal is not to change your mind, I genuinely don't care what you think. I'm just hoping that someone from the balance team can read these posts and decide that AA units are fine exactly where they are.

Test 1
20 Hornets vs 8 Wolves 9 Mechs20 Hornets vs 16 Hogs and 8 WolvesBaseline 80 pop v 80 Pop. The AA wins crushingly here. In both cases the Air tried to focus fire the AA which might seem like a good idea on the surface, however, when trying to focus fire, the Air units will try and bunch up which both increases the effectiveness of the splash of the AA and increases the chance of taking a 6 o'clock leader power right in the jaw

Cost of each army
Air --> 6500 supply
Vehicle --> 4350 supply, 1520 power, 5870 total (mech)
Vehicle --> 5200 supply, 1520 power, 6720 total (hog)

The vehicle army is significantly easier to fund since you are getting income from two different currencies.
"But Wall, I cant tech up if I'm using my power on wolverines"
While this is true, if your opponent committed to full banshees, you wont need to tech up because he will have lost his full army and you will still be at either 9 mantis or 14 wolverines to start attacking his base with some wolverines left over if he tries any more of that air nonsense

Test 2
25 Hornets vs 8 Wolves and 9 Mechs25 Hornets vs 16 Hogs and 9 Wolves100 pop air vs 80 pop Vehicle

While it is not a "crushing defeat" here, the vehicles still win, rather easily. The mechs still have 5 mantis while the warthogs have 11 warthogs. Still enough to harass a base with wolverines left over to kill any air units that might be newly build.

Cost of each army
Air --> 8125 supply, 750 power (reinforcements)
Vehicle --> 4350 supply, 1520 power, 5870 total (mech)
Vehicle --> 5200 supply, 1520 power, 6720 total (hog)

Test 3
20 Wingman Hornets vs 8 Wolves and 9 Mechs30 Hornets vs 16 Hogs and 8 WolverinesI'm sorry if you let your opponent get to tech 3 and max out his army, or get a t3 upgrade and 80 pop air, while you stay at t2 unupgraded everything, you got outplayed and there is no balance patch should be able to fix that.

Note: The Wingman Upgrade makes a HUGE difference in combat power

Cost of each army
Air --> 9750 supply, 3500 power (reinforcements, reinforcements, T3), 13250 total
Air -->6500 supply, 2250 power (t3, wingman), 8750 total
Vehicle --> 4350 supply, 1520 power, 5870 total (mech)
Vehicle --> 5200 supply, 1520 power, 6720 total (hog)

Bonus Test

Manatee and I were trying to discard our left over units so veterancy wouldn't skew test results. We wanted to see what would happen when a full air army attacked a base with 4 AA turrets and 4 wolves left behind on defense. All 25 of the wingman hornets died in the engagement while the base only lost 2 turrets and 1 wolverine.

Disclaimer: This test will be repeated with the Air being split around the base and the base without any Base Fortifications for the sake of consistency with the rest of testing.

All we wanted to do was to show you that it is infact possible to play defense against air units if you split your units, don't double tap the right bumper, and keep control of your units.

4 AA Turrets and 4 Wolves vs 25 Wingman HornetsPlans for Next test.

Reavers & locust v Hornets
Banished and UNSC Base Arrangements with AA for defense against Air

I look forward to an educated and civil discourse in the comments to follow.
Air will literally be unplayable now. But oh well.
Just have the idle hope that 343 won't make the change.
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