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Balance Discussion 3.0 Scorpion's Revenge


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Season 11 Balance Recommendations

-Composed by: THEWALL766

-With Input from: MikeBeaston, Flame Pieman, Metaloidmonkey, CarsandCameras, Sadder Joker, Scootman2, Darkest Inferno, Unknown Phoenix, Hann1ble Lector, XTheManateeX, DC Longshot, BreezyStarfish1, Admiration, L1am Wh1te.

The purpose of this collection of recommendation is to establish a theme for the next balance patch. In the past, balance recommendations have been proposed but often included over 100 different proposed changes. While most of these recommendations were justified, its easy for people to get confused on what changes really matter and which ones were “nice to have”. This post will be broken up into two sections, one will focus on the aspects of the game that the competitive community has more or less come to a consensus on, and the other will be a line item walkthrough of ways each leader either over performs or under performs with a severity ranking for how urgent people believe that the imbalance is.

This document is fluid and a lot of the numbers provided are estimates of what we think would work. It will change as testing occurs and better ideas are presented. Please keep in mind that the focus point of the document is the make changes to T3, if there is something that you don’t like in section 2, please voice your concerns, but also comment on what you feel about section 1. If you would like to contribute more directly to the conversation, please join us on the “Balance Discussion” section of “The Banished” discord.

Season 11 Balance Theme – “Make T3 Units Great For the First Time”
Simply put, T3 vehicles have negligible impact on the meta right now. This can be explained primarily because T3 vehicles are expensive, slow, weak to leader power and siege, and are not strong (especially when compared with their T2 counter parts). Some time back I created a spreadsheet that organized each unit bases on how well they could kill buildings normalized to their population. In short, the results are:
  • #13 Elite Enforcers – 2.45
  • #15 Dispersion Nozzle Hellbringers – 2.25
  • #16 Grizzlies with mega barrage – 2.12
  • #18 Wraiths with scorch mortar – 2.03
  • #19 Grizzlies – 1.96
  • #24 Scorpions with Cannister – 1.74
  • #25 Flame Hogs with Flame Mortar – 1.7
  • #28 Wraiths – 1.63
  • #29 Marauders – 1.60
  • #31 Scorpions – 1.58
  • #35 Warthogs – 1.49
  • #39 Flame Hogs – 1.34
The number refers to the units ranking on the list and the number is the building DPS normalized by population cost. In short, the larger the number, the more building damage you are bringing to a fight. Notice that there is not a large difference between the effectiveness of scorpions and hogs, and marauders and wraiths at the stock level. Despite the fact that T3 units are behind a 1500 power paywall, the increased build time, and the increased cost, you are only adding a small amount of DPS and that increase is still not as effective as T2 Hellbringers, or any other T1 building killer.

Of course, the argument can be made that because Hellbringers and Brutes are “Building Killers” they should be stronger, but I’m going to make the counter point that T3 units are supposed to be the “game enders”. Their building damage alone is not what is keeping them from fulfilling this role, howver, the issue is primarily in their survivability. T3 heavy vehicles crumble to Siege and Leader powers just the same as every other unit in the game. A large mass of slow moving tanks will get cut to shreds before it even reaches a base. What’s worse is that the speed of these units prevents any meaningful micro, and the mediocre damage that they posses means that they always have to stay together to exert any sort of force. Marauders and Hogs also attack in mass, but their speed allows them to split away from powers and disengage if there is an unfavorable engagement. Tanks cannot do this. If you show up to an engagement, you either win (which you probably won’t) or you lose everything.

What Needs to Be Done
Currently, T3 units are non-factors in late game turtles and base breaking. The only way this is going to change is if there is a significant change to the armor of T3 vehicles with regards to Leader Powers, Kodiaks, and Siege Turrets, as well as an increase in building damage. However, a flat buff to heavy vehicles will not be ideal because it will too heavily favor Leaders with heavy vehicles in their unit drops. Instead, it would be more ideal if the unit had more DPS added to the main guns after the T3 upgrade was given. To clarify, this is not a buff to the cannister shot, this is a buff to the scorpion main guns and health after the cannister shot upgrade is purchased. With these changes, T3 vehicles should see significantly more attention in the game and hopefully, the ability to turtle on maps like Sentry, Badlands, and Bedrock, will be significantly reduced.
  • 15% armor buff on All T3 vehicles against leader Powers
  • 10% Building damage and health buff on Scorpion, Grizzly, and Wraith main guns hidden behind T3 upgrade
  • 30% armor buff on all T3 vehicles against siege
  • Helpful – 5% damage buff against T2 vehicles and 5% health buff for Scorpion, Grizzly, and Wraith
The T3 buffs are something on vehicles are something that has been asked for for a while and it would be greatly appreciated if time could be devoted to fine tuning this aspect of the game

T3 Air
Like T3 vehicles, T3 air units also suffer from low usage. This time, however, it is from not having a well-defined role that they can excel in in the late game. This is largely due to the same issues (i.e they are far to easy to kill for how much they cost and don’t bring enough power to a fight).
Because we don’t want to make it so that every game only ends in Tanks, it would make sense for the health of the game that there be viable army comps involving Vultures and Blisterbacks. The buffs for these units, however, are less straightforward since the two units serve very different roles. This section will first define what the community largely believes the role of each unit should be, and then what needs to change so that the unit better fills that role.

Role: Flying tank
Vultures are very slow-moving units that right now serve the singular purpose of flying phoenix missiles into bases. They are usually sent on suicide missions to break turtles because they have almost no combat prowess for anything else. The AA guns that they have aren’t bad against other air, but they are currently miserable against all units on the ground.

Suggestions: The AA guns should receive at least a 10% buff to damage and to splash to help them compete more against Air units. The logic is that I shouldn’t make my air army significantly weaker by trying to build T3 air. The main cannons on the Vulture should also do much more damage to vehicles on the ground. I’m not saying that Vulture main cannons should be enough to beat tanks, but they should at least beat warthogs. As it stands right now, mixing Vultures into my air army makes my air army SIGNIFICANTLY weaker and that is something that needs to change. I know there is resistance to large changes but right now the vulture main cannons are the per pop worst building killer in the game.

In additions, vultures should also receive a 30% armor buff to Leader Powers and possibly even a 5-10% health buff overall to keep them alive longer to actually use their weapons.
Role: Flying Artillery

Right now, the blisterback is at a point where it is combat incompetent in the air and mediocre in the air. Testing showed 4 Blisterbacks lose to 7 hornets with 5 wingman hornets remaining at the end of the fight and 3 Blisterbacks losing to 7 Plasma Torpedo Banshees with 5 Banshees remaining. I’m not sure it this is the intent of the blisterback but right now the air gun is comparable to a slightly beefed of version of the Kodiaks chain gun turret.

Suggestions: The main thing holding the blisterback is its range and its survivability. It actually does very good damage to both ground units and buildings, its just that its range isn’t large enough for it to have the same presence that a Kodiak has. The goal is to have the blisterbacks bring the additional building damage to a fight when you are using an air army, being able to lock down further away from defending troops or turrets will allow them to actually take place in a fight without being immediately killed upon landing. A range closer to that of the Kodiak will make that possible.

Additionally, blisterbacks should receive a nerf to damage on T3 vehicles so that they can’t be used as effectively to turtle. Survivability increases such as the 30% armor buff to Leader Powers, 5-10% additional armor against core air, and maybe even +1 speed will all go along way to seeing use of the Blisterback as an offensive unit.

All the Other Stuff
This will basically go over all the other things that people believe are imbalanced in the game. While they are important, changes to T3 would be the “if we had to choose 1 thing”. If you feel like what was said previously was enough to constitute a balance update, by all means, stop reading.

Both Factions

Heroes right now are an integral part of many Leader kits, however, at times, these heroes tend to overperform against units that are supposed to counter them as well as against units far more expensive than them. Because of this, there are a few things that should be looked at

1) Infantry heroes should do less damage to Anti Infantry units. A 5-10% nerf to the "Light Armor" damage type would be useful for keeping Hellbringers or rangers alive a bit longer in the fight to do damage
2) Heroes are abusive when they are placed in garrisons and it would be helpful if they received less of an armor buff, especially when that buff occurs directly in front of someone's base
3) Scouts should have higher armor against hero damage and should do a little bit more damage to all types of heroes, this is more for the Rabbits since it is very tough for the UNSC to deal with vehicle heroes like the Bison, Forge Hog, or Command Mantis. Conversely, Choppers and ghosts do great against vehicle heroes but are weak to infantry heroes, despite having an overwhelming cost disparity

Anti-Vehicles units (Cyclops and Hunter) should receive Buffs to their T3 weapon so that they lose to the new tanks without it but win decisively with it. This is especially important for the Banished as currently the Assault beam for the hunters is widely considered a "Downgrade" and Banshees are in a very weak spot. Strong buffs to T3 could skew the late game very dramatically to the UNSC if this isn't taken into account. Special considerations should be taken to make sure Cannister shots and missile barrages don't "delete" AV units (important).

UNSC - Overall

Combat Tech marines still way over perform against core vehicles. Many people feel as if the issue is just as bad as it was before the last season balance. A 25% damage nerf on the CT rocket against Core vehicle would be helpful in allowing Hogs to act as a counter to someone going Marines as their unit. The rocket feels fine with regards to most other interactions. The heal rate on Combat Tech Marines is also oppressive and if the full nerf to the rocket isn't practical, than lowering the heal rate would also be a good fix. This will be an indirect nerf to Jerome Mastodons as they will have to be filled with more than Combat Tech marines to be effective. My goal is to make it so that core vehicles in equal pop can decisively beat a marine mastodon army because right now this is NOT the case (important)

Gauss Hog is not an upgrade in its current state. The chain gun and the gauss weapon on the hogs both do the same damage against buildings, I have personally tested and timed this. The upgrade also seems to do minimal help against non-gauss hogs or other core vehicles. Buffs to the way the weapon handles other core vehicles as well as squad infantry would be good for the unit. (Medium)

Cyclops still largely underperform as AV units and would need a buff to better perform their role once the Combat Tech Marine becomes unable to handle core vehicles. Small buffs to health and DPS will probably be enough. (medium)
Snipers are in a very interesting spot because they are fantastic at killing singular units like heroes on T1, but good for almost nothing else. This is because the weapon that they have only does point damage and the unit itself has a slow fire rate. This makes them unequipped to deal with squad units such as Marines and Grunts. There are a few changes that should be made to help this issue out. These changes should be taken as a whole because taking some of the buffs without the nerfs could do more harm than good to the balance of the game

Snipers should get a small amount of splash on their weapon, just enough so that the shot can hit other members of a squad, but not units from another squad. This will help them retain usefulness after the player transitions from T1. This splash should only be applied to the unit after the Cloak upgrade so that the current balance with the unit at T1 still remains intact.

The sniper should receive a 10% damage nerf as a compensation for being able to hit more targets with a single shot

All T1 heroes should receive a 5% health nerf at T1 (excluding the Hunter Captain who is talked about separately in the colony section) so that the decrease in damage dealt from snipers doesn’t let heroes run wild in T1. This will also give banished more counter play against T1 heroes.

Snipers also currently have the "core infantry" armor type which is inconsistent with its "anti infantry" role. Changing its armor type to "light armor" to match the flamer and other rush units will help it be more resistant to infantry and more susceptible to scouts.

---End Snipers---

Siege should be nerfed against core and heavy vehicles. As it stands currently, siege acts as both anti vehicle and anti-infantry. Leaders with enhanced siege mechanics become “Anti Ground” and force you to go air which is then very easily countered by AA units. Moderate nerfs to Kodiak and Siege turrets on core vehicles will allow more counter play to Anders and Serina and heavy siege nerf on T3 will give more viability to T3 in general. (High)

Jackrabbits still underperform in their role as scouts. They are very expensive for the minimal impact they can be made in the early game. The damage that they have with each shot seems to be enough to justify building them as units, however, they seem to miss a large amount of their shots, an accuracy buff to Jackrabbits should hopefully make them more effective.

Jackrabbits also lose quite handily to grenades when the grenade hits, a 10% armor buff to grenade damage should keep them alive long enough to kill early game Hellbringer pushes. (medium)

While the Marine Grenade is a very good weapon when it hits its target, it tends to miss a lot of shots against fast moving targets such as scouts. If this is intentional, it is not ideal because it makes engagements based more on RnG and less on skill. Grenade Throw should also receive an accuracy buff.

Currently, Wingman Hornets beat Plasma Torpedo Banshees Pop for Pop (barely) and in cost (Sevearly). This is not ideal because the wingman hornet does more damage to ground units and UNSC have a T3 unit that should also (ideally) project AA force. Because the blisterback is not a unit that is capable of fighting other Air units, the banshee should act more as an AA unit. Because buffing the plasma torpedo would interfere with a lot of other interactions, I think the best course of action would be to nerf the damage that the Wingman rocket does to other air units while buffing the health of the Banshee by 5-10% in order to keep it in the fight longer. (note: balancing air is very tough and after this patch is completed, I would like the next focus to be on making air armies more fair for both aggressors and defenders.)

The wingman rocket also does a massive amount of damage to core infantry units and should receive a 5-10% nerf against them so that the interaction behaves more according the unit counter model.

Leader Specific – Anders

Anders R&D gives her an exceptional advantage in the early and midgame. Currently it gives a 50% decrease in upgrade time and 50% decrease in cost for every upgrade. This is probably too good and should probably be lowered to 40% or 35%. (Medium)

Sentinel Network is still very much a T5 power that is accessible in T4. Either the damage per sentinel needs to be reduced or there need to be only 2 waves of sentinels but right now it is far too strong for how early it is accessibly. (important)

The Retriever Sentinel needs a speed and acceleration nerf along with a longer time before the shields recharge. Right now, it is a terror in combat (as it should be), but its far too easy to run away from a bad engagement and heal up. If the mobility was decreased it would be much more manageable for other leaders because right now it is far too dramatic of a power spike (important).

Leader Specific – Jerome

The Jerome hero on T1 does too much damage for how fast and tanky he is. His previous damage buff could be reverted, and he would still be in a great place. Additionally, his T2 and T3 forms have an absurd amount of health, especially if you manage to eject from the mantis before it dies in combat. Moderate health nerfs (5%) to his hero and mantis at T2 and T3 would be good for leveling his already fantastic kit out. (high)

Leader Specific – Kinsano
The Flame Cyclops is far too fast for how much health it has after the High Torque Joint upgrade. The unit should have a health nerf at T2 and T3. (high)

Flame hogs currently are worse building killers than chain gun hogs. The seem to be effective enough against infantry but because flame hogs lose handily to gunner hogs, they should at least do more damage to buildings. The T3 upgrade seems to be a good upgrade, however, unlike the gauss upgrade. (medium)

Note: Flame hogs do not compete with hogs well, so leaders that have strong hog styles, i.e Forge, Izzy, Anders, Jerome, inherently have an advantage against Kisnano unless cyclops get a buff.

Flames still drop shields very quickly and powers like Inferno should be a little weaker on buildings (medium)

Because Kinsano Redline II tanks will be a fantastic unit late game, I don't want to include many compensatory buffs until I know what she looks like after a T3 rework.
Leader Specific – Serina

Serina's chill is in an awkward position because of a bug that causes vehicles to suddenly stop once they hit the chill aura. This is very difficult to micro around and a bit unfair as it offers a strong total area denial. one of 2 things should be done about this. The chill rate for core vehicles should be reduced 5-10% so that core vehicles can fight longer when stuck in the ice, or, the slow that is experienced by core vehicles should be reduced 5-10% so they can egress easier.

Note: Because chill auras can stack, and the rate can be doubled or tripled when considering the bison, the ice blocks, and the drop turret, this shouldn’t be an outlandish request.

The bison is very tanky at T2 and T3 and should receive a small health nerf.

While the chill rate on vehicles is a bit much, the rest of Serina’s kit largely lags behind the rest of the pack and she should receive some love in other areas to increase here competitiveness without propping her up on “cheap” gameplay mechanics.

Cryo Troopers are very good early game units when in mass but struggle at killing units when they aren’t in mass. This gives Serina a significant weakness in the early game, The Cryo Trooper should receive at least a 10% DPS buff at T1 if not more (high)

Frost Ravens are also a very interesting part of Serina’s kit that is underutilized because of their high cost, halving the power cost on the Frost Raven should see them have more use in infantry and Air comps. (high)

Leader Specific - Johnson

“Digging In” does not have a large enough effect on the game and should be consolidated into 1 point to make it a more attractive option

Colossus currently are the best T3 unit in the game and effectively dominate the ground game once they get rolling. Their massive range is one of the main reasons for this. Currently they do too much to chasing Anti-Vehicle units that can be kited to death before even firing a single shot. A nerf to Colossus DPS to Anti-vehicle units would be good at giving more counter play to Johnson late game.

Colossus receiving 5% more damage from air units would also help be more fairly counterable in late game situations.

Banished – Overall

Banished Shields can come up in mid battle once a single generator is built. This, coupled with the health of shields, allows banished players to stall pushes even when there is a decent population disparity. There is also a mechanic called shield juggling where one person builds a second shield generator and just before it is completed, the first shield generator is self-destructed, and a brand-new full health shield covers the base. There should be a minimum damage threshold that, when met, prevents shields being constructed. (high).

The chopper should receive a larger DPS increase and a higher multiplier against Heroes with shrapnel round as well as a slight health buff with the upgrade to make the power more relevant, right now, it is not very useful for how much power it costs.

Because Banished building killers are all melee units, they tend to be uncooperative when being told to attack a building when there are units in the area. Changing the targeting priority on Goliaths and Jump Jack Brutes to attack buildings instead of units will be a helpful quality of life update.

Glassing Beam III is banned in all HWCL tournaments and is avoided in "gentleman's agreement" customs. The power as a whole should be nerfed for duration at all levels while the DPS for III should be reduced with II nerfed so there is logical scaling when purchasing the three points.

Leader Specific - Colony

The Hunter Captain at T1 is far too unkillable. The hero needs a health nerf at all 3 levels as well as a decrease in the siphon percentage so that the unit doesn’t need 50-60 pop of focus fire to be killed. I also think nerfing his armor when in a garrison would be a fair change since he is most abusive on maps where garrisons over look bases such as Rift.

Because Colony isn't considered to be top tier, nerfing his hero shouldn't come without some compensatory buff in order to keep him relevant. This is very tough because his kit doesn't have a lot of things that are safe to buff. I do not want to increase Combat Repair because I already think it is a great power, and after comparing Hunters Brand to Mac blast at all level, I don't think buffing brand is the answer either. I would love to hear your suggestions but currently, the only think I could think of is AOE buffs or armor buffs to symbiots.

Leader Specific – Decimus

Boundless siphon grunts currently beat chain gun hogs and marauders which violates the unit triangle. Nerfs to the heal that the grunts receive are necessary to balance the unit. (High)

The Decimus Hero units are also very difficult to kill and would be more balanced if it had a lower siphon value. (High)
Preposition: Increase the population count of the unit to 14 and lower the health and shield of the Decimus ultimate. See Eitner’s Comment below.

Leader Specific – Arbiter

Arbiter overall has a very high skill ceiling and favors very aggressive play; however, He has two stasis powers that together, can take very large portions of armies out of fights for up to 30 seconds. Currently Mass Stasis can take armies out of the fight for 15 seconds and Stasis can pause for 10 and 15 seconds for point 1 and 2. Nerfs of a few seconds to each duration would be good.

Leader Specific – Atriox

Counter measures mines dropped from the JPB cover a very large area and do a lot of damage to scouts. Since scouts are the counter to the JPB rush unit, this is a bit of a problem. The Counter Measure Jump Pack Brute mines should do 10% less damage to scouts.

Leader Specific - Yap Yap

Yap Yap is probably the most unique and the most polarizing leaders in the game. The general consensus with him seems to be that he is abusively strong in the late game but fairly weak early on. The goal should be to level him out.

His leaders are non-factors in T1 and every Yap Yap main that I know will tell you to avoid them. On the other hand, the heal from the T2 and T3 goblins is so strong that it can bring a full army from black bar to full health almost instantly. To level this out, there should be a nerf to the heal from the goblins (5%-10%-15% idk please comment) at T2 and T3 with a 5%-10% health and DPS buff to the Goblins at T1.

His methane wagons are also 300-120 which is very expensive for a unit that is designed to be in a T1 army. A cost decrease of 50-25 (or maybe more?) might help its usage.

Finally, his surprise party mine is in an awkward spot because it has a very large splash for how cheap it is but doesn’t do enough damage to kill an infantry unit. Nerfing the AOE and buffing the point damage mike make it more fair for both Yap and the enemy.

Leader Specific - Shipmaster

Nerfing ship will be difficult because he has a kit that requires a lot of expertise to use. However, many top players feel he is too strong.

Spirit Support is often regarded as the best unit drop in the game and the veterency on the ranger should be reduced from 3 to 2 as well as a power increase of 200 so that the power is more expensive that the cost of the units being dropped.

Nerfs to glassing beam will be an indirect nerf to shipmaster since it is his only offensive leader power.
I will say most of these changes appeal to me, however I'm not sure if some of them are possible at this stage of development.

That said, one change I'm on the fence on is Serina and her chill rate, but I'll do more testing and contemplate the issue.
hey, this isnt completly stupid
Great post and its actually nice to see other's haven't given up on the balance of the game

Unfortunately i am weary about any of it making it into the next patch, after all there was similar post and list of changes made before for the S11 patch and i think only 1 of the dozens of suggestions actually made it into the patch.

I'll be keeping an eye on this one.

CT damage vs vehicles was not adjusted/Change,
Boundless siphon still works outside of combat,
Retriever sentinel nerf from S9-8? Still hasn't been applied,
Salvo damage modifiers is still the same as well (1.5)
Yay, I made it in.

Aweosme post, brother. Really well done.
Wow thanks to everyone who worked on this.
This are great changes and i agree 100%
But i would add to the list that the cooldown of the deci drop and retriever actually starts when the units are killed not when they are dropped.
Thanks again for this great list
Have a nice day guys
AcE Hisoka wrote:
Wow thanks to everyone who worked on this.
This are great changes and i agree 100%
But i would add to the list that the cooldown of the deci drop and retriever actually starts when the units are killed not when they are dropped.
Thanks again for this great list
Have a nice day guys
We agree 100% about the cooldown being adjusted so that it doesn't start going until after the unit death. Unfortunately that would require a code rework of the power and the devs have a lot of other things they need to work on such as MCC. It would be great but im pretty sure everything that I included was just a number change which is often the path of least resistance in getting a change.
THEWALL766 wrote:
AcE Hisoka wrote:
Wow thanks to everyone who worked on this.
This are great changes and i agree 100%
But i would add to the list that the cooldown of the deci drop and retriever actually starts when the units are killed not when they are dropped.
Thanks again for this great list
Have a nice day guys
We agree 100% about the cooldown being adjusted so that it doesn't start going until after the unit death. Unfortunately that would require a code rework of the power and the devs have a lot of other things they need to work on such as MCC. It would be great but im pretty sure everything that I included was just a number change which is often the path of least resistance in getting a change.
For Deci Drop, it may not be a bad idea for his Y ability to start 50% off cooldown. With any sort of slower moving army, it’s near impossible to dodge the beams,if Deci is dropped on the army, which leaves most units red bar.

A system like like this is used in Blitz (units starting with cooldowns x% off), so I want to say it’s possible, but I’m ultimately not certain.
evils wrote:
THEWALL766 wrote:
AcE Hisoka wrote:
Wow thanks to everyone who worked on this.
This are great changes and i agree 100%
But i would add to the list that the cooldown of the deci drop and retriever actually starts when the units are killed not when they are dropped.
Thanks again for this great list
Have a nice day guys
We agree 100% about the cooldown being adjusted so that it doesn't start going until after the unit death. Unfortunately that would require a code rework of the power and the devs have a lot of other things they need to work on such as MCC. It would be great but im pretty sure everything that I included was just a number change which is often the path of least resistance in getting a change.
For Deci Drop, it may not be a bad idea for his Y ability to start 50% off cooldown. With any sort of slower moving army, it’s near impossible to dodge the beams,if Deci is dropped on the army, which leaves most units red bar.

A system like like this is used in Blitz (units starting with cooldowns x% off), so I want to say it’s possible, but I’m ultimately not certain.
That's a really good idea. Commander Jerome also starts with his mantis on cooldown so its not an unheard of concept. I wonder how much of a change that would require.
Woohoo, I was mentioned in a post, I'm Waypoint famous! Good work on compiling this, here's to hoping these changes get implemented, it'd be a great step in the right direction.
These changes would make the game more balanced and fun. Although it probably all won't get done, I like the priority level you added in there to help take care of the most urgent things first; anything in the game that can turn a tide of battle when the other more skilled player was ahead and supposed to win needs to be fixed to help make the game in a wonderful state.
the best thing to do is have your deci die right after he uses his Y. then you have another deci drop and use his Y again on the same army. its devastating
I'm in love with all of these suggestions.
THEWALL766 wrote:
please delete this
I mostly agree with the changes Wall is proposing for the T3 tank units. However I have some concerns. Firstly if this change is going to happen it needs to happen for all T3 units across the board otherwise there will be a situation where some T3 units are too valuable for their pop compared to others. For example newly buffed scorpions per pop being stronger than Colossi. So in my opinions these buffs need to affect all the T3 units, that being: Scorpions, Grizzlies, Colossi, Vultures, Blisterbacks and Wraiths. Blisterbacks having that extra T3 toughness might make them actually viable as they could tank damage while on the ground do to their minimal range. Also the 30% reduction to siege damage seems a bit much. Siege is inherently anti-ground and tanks are a ground unit, 20% would be a more reasonable modifier.

And everyone who knows me knows I'm a Serina shill lol but seriously after this last buff Serina now has a chance to be viable in 1s. I'm not in favor of any nerfs to her kit as she still one of the most under-performing 1v1 leaders. The only change I would see being reasonable is a 5% chill rate reduction to core vehicles and a 10% chill rate reduction to heavy vehicles. Nothing else about her needs to change as far as nerfs. The bison's health does not need a reduction as it already gets shredded by air and is unique among all the hero units in that it is most effective when stationary and locked down in one position making it vulnerable. Serina's kit is built around freeze and controlling the ground game with area denial, she doesn't have an effective nuke until very late game when cryo stacks so significantly reducing her effectiveness to freeze will make her pointless to play and counter-playing against other leaders with aggressive kits will become nigh impossible.
Just wanted to add vordius gel makes forge hog and or his units very slow. The rate of speed is nonexistent almost as if he doesn't move compared to other leaders. I haven't come across this recently because no one has played him in the matches ive done but it makes ur army as forge really slow making it difficult to push or evade.

As for Serina completely agree on slow effects and everything else regarding her. As for breaking turtles T3 vehicles don't seem very effective at times largely because of the leader or maps u mentioned and overall killing power vs buildings. I also feel that siege and Kodiaks make people just want to build mass air to avoid a ground fight at times so it could help improving the resilence against leader powers and long range artillery for T3 vehicles and add more to people's play book.

Johnson is a leader that could be a headache to deal with largely because he can kite ur AT units like nothing and make his mechs invulnerable namely his mantis units, a slight nerf to speed would be nice or some love for AT mainly Cyclops.

Snipers need some more protection from noncounter units no doubt or more health and armor in general. Elite rangers i just dont know if being more tanky is better or what but it seems to take some time to kill the units they counter. Im just saying it seems difficult to understand their effectiveness at times.

Scout units dont seem to help any because granades or shrapnal mines wreck them, I can only say this for rabbits and choppers followed by their price tag.

Lastly, I just wanted to clarify that any nerf on CT marines would only affect their effectiveness vs ground core vehicles and not core air vehicles? I know the example given is for hogs to be more effective vs CT marines, all for it but just making sure.
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