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[Locked] Balance Patch Preview, No Notes Today :(

OP BreezyStarfish1

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TheLoomx wrote:
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
But for now he is unbeatable if played correctly.
That statement is both hyperbolic and honestly incorrect. Carnage even stated that every leader is within +-4% of 50% average win rate. Meaning he is winning at most 54% of games.

You will counter by saying "but I mentioned if played correctly". That is totally subjective. There are multiple ways to play every leader and while voridus is quite strong in his openers he isn't unbeatable.

It isn't healthy for the game to say "this leader is strong in the right hands, nerf it into oblivion". That doesn't actually improve the game as much as it does shift the balance further askew.

Personally, I've beaten voridus's played by competent players this patch. Is it difficult? Sure. But it's not unbeatable.
If it helps his leader is what breaks the game the most with his infusion hammer being able to paint more then infusion wake lvl3 for free and can be done over and over for free. Not including leader powers. You can surround a base twice with him. Then invigorating frenzy increases speed allowing him to paint even more.
But his whole kit revolves around spreading goop. Wouldn't removing that take away his leader identity?

I agree it spreads quite a lot.

However, the reduction of goo damage to bases last patch allows engineers or nightengales to outheal the damage from goo.

Now, like Carnage has mentioned, the durations on goo time are being reduced which is definitely needed.

How would you prefer to balance his leader though? I'm actually curious, not trying to be an -Yoink- lol. Reduce how long his goo trails?
TheLoomx wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
But for now he is unbeatable if played correctly.
That statement is both hyperbolic and honestly incorrect. Carnage even stated that every leader is within +-4% of 50% average win rate. Meaning he is winning at most 54% of games.

You will counter by saying "but I mentioned if played correctly". That is totally subjective. There are multiple ways to play every leader and while voridus is quite strong in his openers he isn't unbeatable.

It isn't healthy for the game to say "this leader is strong in the right hands, nerf it into oblivion". That doesn't actually improve the game as much as it does shift the balance further askew.

Personally, I've beaten voridus's played by competent players this patch. Is it difficult? Sure. But it's not unbeatable.
If it helps his leader is what breaks the game the most with his infusion hammer being able to paint more then infusion wake lvl3 for free and can be done over and over for free. Not including leader powers. You can surround a base twice with him. Then invigorating frenzy increases speed allowing him to paint even more.
But his whole kit revolves around spreading goop. Wouldn't removing that take away his leader identity?

I agree it spreads quite a lot.

However, the reduction of goo damage to bases last patch allows engineers or nightengales to outheal the damage from goo.

Now, like Carnage has mentioned, the durations on goo time are being reduced which is definitely needed.

How would you prefer to balance his leader though? I'm actually curious, not trying to be an -Yoink- lol. Reduce how long his goo trails?
20sec then infusion tech and other upgrades can increase from there also mine goo shouldn't spread unless detonated.
TheLoomx wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
But for now he is unbeatable if played correctly.
That statement is both hyperbolic and honestly incorrect. Carnage even stated that every leader is within +-4% of 50% average win rate. Meaning he is winning at most 54% of games.

You will counter by saying "but I mentioned if played correctly". That is totally subjective. There are multiple ways to play every leader and while voridus is quite strong in his openers he isn't unbeatable.

It isn't healthy for the game to say "this leader is strong in the right hands, nerf it into oblivion". That doesn't actually improve the game as much as it does shift the balance further askew.

Personally, I've beaten voridus's played by competent players this patch. Is it difficult? Sure. But it's not unbeatable.
If it helps his leader is what breaks the game the most with his infusion hammer being able to paint more then infusion wake lvl3 for free and can be done over and over for free. Not including leader powers. You can surround a base twice with him. Then invigorating frenzy increases speed allowing him to paint even more.
But his whole kit revolves around spreading goop. Wouldn't removing that take away his leader identity?

I agree it spreads quite a lot.

However, the reduction of goo damage to bases last patch allows engineers or nightengales to outheal the damage from goo.

Now, like Carnage has mentioned, the durations on goo time are being reduced which is definitely needed.

How would you prefer to balance his leader though? I'm actually curious, not trying to be an -Yoink- lol. Reduce how long his goo trails?
20sec then infusion tech and other upgrades can increase from there also mine goo shouldn't spread unless detonated.
20s on how long the goo stays on the ground or how long it trails? I think goo duration ought to go down across the board which seems to be the direction they are going according to Carnage's post.
The goo slow plus the damage it deals is what causes him to be extremely limited to play against. Just having a big area with a slow without the damage is strong, nevermind the damage combo! I'm glad they are working on it.
M000SEY wrote:
Postums wrote:
Postums wrote:
Bringing the durations, slow, and damage of the goop down some, but not drastically, but some for starters will help. People will scream that it's not enough or it is too much, but regardless we can continue to tune and get the various leaders/units into better states.
I understand the reasoning behind wanting to make small, incremental balance changes rather than large sweeping ones. For the most part I actually prefer those.

The problem with Voridus is that he is so far beyond what the other leaders are capable of doing. I would've been fine with small nerfs 3 or 4 weeks ago when it first became apparent how broken he was. I would've been fine with them if it was possible for the balance updates to come every 2 or 3 weeks. But if it's going to take a month and a half for the next update, I would much rather have Voridus become irrelevant and then slowly get buffed back to par with the other leaders. I'm not sure how much more of broken leaders the fanbase can take.
Like I've said time and time again - you can't make everyone happy. The funny thing is, at all levels of leaders, no one leader has a +4% across the board win/loss record. To put this into perspective - when Forge hog was at his peak broken state - he was +12% win/loss ratio across the board.

So people are still beating Voridus. Funny enough - Decimus actually currently has the highest win/loss ratio in all tiers of players.
Hi Carnage,
Thanks for taking the time to post about the two main issues. I definitely really appreciate it. As a scientist as a profession, looking at statistics can often lead us down the wrong path. Quantification is something we strive for, but it is often not possible. For instance, even though Voridus may only have a +3% win/loss doesn't really hold much value because most players actually straight up refuse to use him. As far as Forge goes, 3 Forges face 3 Forges in a 3v3 deathmatch, the percentage actually stays at 0%, right? Regardless of the stats, as a loyal and high level player, I can't take much more of the Voridus, Pavium, or Serina drastically altering gameplay. Is there a way that teams can ban certain leaders in ranked play (or a ranked playlist for this)? Could there be a playlist with only the original leaders? I'm struggling to find motivation to play a game I love.

Thanks for reading and helping out the community!
Moose
I 100% agree that stats are not everything and a lot of information has to be taken into account in order to create a balanced environment. We will continue to tweak things as needed based on feedback and data as we strive for the best balance possible among all leaders.
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
Voridus' hero unit can literally paint an entire continent with his y ability. I've seen the high ground position on bedrock (where the energy bundle is on the side of the map) entirely covered in goo from corner to corner from just the hero unit alone in addition to that the mine, infusion wake, and grenadier drop, can turn a fifth of the map into a cataclysm zone and there's nothing anyone can do to counter it. His hero unit definetly needs to be addressed as well and I don't even think enough people realize it.
I think you just miss posting the patch notes first ;)
Hehehe this ^
TheLoomx wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
But for now he is unbeatable if played correctly.
But his whole kit revolves around spreading goop. Wouldn't removing that take away his leader identity?

I agree it spreads quite a lot.

However, the reduction of goo damage to bases last patch allows engineers or nightengales to outheal the damage from goo.

Now, like Carnage has mentioned, the durations on goo time are being reduced which is definitely needed.

How would you prefer to balance his leader though? I'm actually curious, not trying to be an -Yoink- lol. Reduce how long his goo trails?
Yes, spreading goo is critical to his kit, but it can also be brought in line without taking away his identity.

First off, his leader releases an obscene amount off goo. I get that his Y ability should release goo as an AoE attack, but to follow him for 30 seconds? That insane. Warlord's Slam stuns everyone around him but he doesn't proceed to keep moving around for 30 seconds stunning everything on the field like a walking Vortex. Serina similarly has an AoE Y ability but she can't move while it's active. That's what keeps it in check. No, Voridus should drop a large pool when using his Y and it should end there, no infusion trail.

His mine shouldn't release goo if diffused. Mines shouldn't leave goo for 2 minutes period. Engineers shouldn't damage units when releasing goo (it's currently like they drop a mine on units when it should just be leaving goo on the ground). Invigorating Frenzy shouldn't give as many buffs since it's already the largest heal in the game. His grenadier drop's goo should be comparable to kinsano's hellbringer drop in AoE damage and duration. Overall longer cooldowns on many powers and unit abilities (maelstrom, cataclysm, engineers, Voridus, etc.)

There's just lot about his kit that is obscene and should be toned down. I'm curious about what you think of ^these changes.
TheLoomx wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
But for now he is unbeatable if played correctly.
But his whole kit revolves around spreading goop. Wouldn't removing that take away his leader identity?

I agree it spreads quite a lot.

However, the reduction of goo damage to bases last patch allows engineers or nightengales to outheal the damage from goo.

Now, like Carnage has mentioned, the durations on goo time are being reduced which is definitely needed.

How would you prefer to balance his leader though? I'm actually curious, not trying to be an -Yoink- lol. Reduce how long his goo trails?
Yes, spreading goo is critical to his kit, but it can also be brought in line without taking away his identity.

First off, his leader releases an obscene amount off goo. I get that his Y ability should release goo as an AoE attack, but to follow him for 30 seconds? That insane. Warlord's Slam stuns everyone around him but he doesn't proceed to keep moving around for 30 seconds stunning everything on the field like a walking Vortex. Serina similarly has an AoE Y ability but she can't move while it's active. That's what keeps it in check. No, Voridus should drop a large pool when using his Y and it should end there, no infusion trail.

His mine shouldn't release goo if diffused. Mines shouldn't leave goo for 2 minutes period. Engineers shouldn't damage units when releasing goo (it's currently like they drop a mine on units when it should just be leaving goo on the ground). Invigorating Frenzy shouldn't give as many buffs since it's already the largest heal in the game. His grenadier drop's goo should be comparable to kinsano's hellbringer drop in AoE damage and duration. Overall longer cooldowns on many powers and unit abilities (maelstrom, cataclysm, engineers, Voridus, etc.)

There's just lot about his kit that is obscene and should be toned down. I'm curious about what you think of ^these changes.
I feel you're going a bit overboard, as someone who plays this leader a lot I can say that he needs subtle tweaks. His grenadiers need to be stronger and potentially faster because by decreasing goop damage he may get overrun by early game infantry spams. But a fix to scouts might compensate. The leader y ability should probably be more like a really long game of snake rather than a bob Ross painting.

the duration of goop is the bigger problem and if the slow is touched it may be too extreme to also touch the damage. Late game Voridus has two options to wipe enemy armies regardless of army size. Both cataclysm and maelstrom are powerful when used correctly. The goo vortex is bad and only worth anything when you have lvl 3 to combo the splash damage with maelstrom. It currently is not worth upgrading the unit drop bc marauders are good and wraiths are bad and there is no veterancy on the upgraded unit drop.

The voridus leader itself should be made stronger because aside from spreading goop he isn't very useful. He can lose a 1v1 to the Spartans while on his goop.

other than voridus though, I would like to see nerfs to pavium and Serena. Cryotech advances should be split into two points, requiring the 2nd point for the nodes and kodiaks. Also the shields on the cryo troopers need to have the same armor typing as the cryo troopers bc currently they eat extra suicide grunt dmg.
pavium hero needs to be nerfed so that it is killable without suicide grunts. Rain of fire needs a building damage nerf and a duration nerf and cd. And ultra mines need an increase in arm time and cooldown and a decrease in damage as it is currently an army wipe that you can throw on the enemy army instead of being played like a mine. The pavium hero heal drone should prob heal slower. You actually currently cannot beat pavium with shipmaster at all, I've tried it multiple times and can demonstrate if anyone would like.
Paviums stand should have its duration reduced to 10 seconds.

and most importantly arbiter phantoms should have the effect of conduit on them scaled down by like 35% as a full pop of phantoms (with units) can currently kill anything because conduit heals way too much on them, it can currently out heal the damage of cataclysm.

this isn't the most detailed post but I'm on my phone at dinner.
Maybe changing the entire idea isn't a bad idea. Perhaps instead of mud, he should have farts and they can linger in the air for 24 seconds causing slows and some damage.
I just got a 445.21mb update . It’s 8:05pm eastern . Just said updating..... thought I was going to have to re download the whole game over 445.21mb but after a few mins started to download . Have no idea what this update is ?!
I just got a 445.21mb update . It’s 8:05pm eastern . Just said updating..... thought I was going to have to re download the whole game over 445.21mb but after a few mins started to download . Have no idea what this update is ?!
It's not the balance, because that would be a server side update
This is game got stupid real quick with how strong they are making the covenant leaders. I mean they can almost destroy your base without even being near it with some of their leader powers, not to mention take out your whole army with just one. Then you throw in shields, invisibility, free units with yap yap, it don't end. This game was fun but I wish they would go back to the Halo olden days when it was a first person shooter.
This is game got stupid real quick with how strong they are making the covenant leaders. I mean they can almost destroy your base without even being near it with some of their leader powers, not to mention take out your whole army with just one. Then you throw in shields, invisibility, free units with yap yap, it don't end. This game was fun but I wish they would go back to the Halo olden days when it was a first person shooter.
There is an fps, it's called halo 5. Your comments aren't very relevant because forge dominated some of the top level tournaments, not including Voridus. They are working on voridus and other stuff right now; it's a matter of time.
This is game got stupid real quick with how strong they are making the covenant leaders. I mean they can almost destroy your base without even being near it with some of their leader powers, not to mention take out your whole army with just one. Then you throw in shields, invisibility, free units with yap yap, it don't end. This game was fun but I wish they would go back to the Halo olden days when it was a first person shooter.
You obviously didn't play much Forgehog, preseason, or season one.

You couldn't win with Banished in those days.
TheLoomx wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
But for now he is unbeatable if played correctly.
I feel you're going a bit overboard, as someone who plays this leader a lot I can say that he needs subtle tweaks. His grenadiers need to be stronger and potentially faster because by decreasing goop damage he may get overrun by early game infantry spams. But a fix to scouts might compensate. The leader y ability should probably be more like a really long game of snake rather than a bob Ross painting.

the duration of goop is the bigger problem and if the slow is touched it may be too extreme to also touch the damage. Late game Voridus has two options to wipe enemy armies regardless of army size. Both cataclysm and maelstrom are powerful when used correctly. The goo vortex is bad and only worth anything when you have lvl 3 to combo the splash damage with maelstrom. It currently is not worth upgrading the unit drop bc marauders are good and wraiths are bad and there is no veterancy on the upgraded unit drop.

The voridus leader itself should be made stronger because aside from spreading goop he isn't very useful. He can lose a 1v1 to the Spartans while on his goop.

other than voridus though, I would like to see nerfs to pavium and Serena. Cryotech advances should be split into two points, requiring the 2nd point for the nodes and kodiaks. Also the shields on the cryo troopers need to have the same armor typing as the cryo troopers bc currently they eat extra suicide grunt dmg.
pavium hero needs to be nerfed so that it is killable without suicide grunts. Rain of fire needs a building damage nerf and a duration nerf and cd. And ultra mines need an increase in arm time and cooldown and a decrease in damage as it is currently an army wipe that you can throw on the enemy army instead of being played like a mine. The pavium hero heal drone should prob heal slower. You actually currently cannot beat pavium with shipmaster at all, I've tried it multiple times and can demonstrate if anyone would like.
Paviums stand should have its duration reduced to 10 seconds.

and most importantly arbiter phantoms should have the effect of conduit on them scaled down by like 35% as a full pop of phantoms (with units) can currently kill anything because conduit heals way too much on them, it can currently out heal the damage of cataclysm.

this isn't the most detailed post but I'm on my phone at dinner.
Is this because Phantoms are getting 3-4x the conduit effect because of the units in side of them or do they just have a high heal value?
Did you try level 3 conduit with marauders and also grunts by themselves?
EiTeNeR wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
But for now he is unbeatable if played correctly.
I feel you're going a bit overboard, as someone who plays this leader a lot I can say that he needs subtle tweaks. His grenadiers need to be stronger and potentially faster because by decreasing goop damage he may get overrun by early game infantry spams. But a fix to scouts might compensate. The leader y ability should probably be more like a really long game of snake rather than a bob Ross painting.

the duration of goop is the bigger problem and if the slow is touched it may be too extreme to also touch the damage. Late game Voridus has two options to wipe enemy armies regardless of army size. Both cataclysm and maelstrom are powerful when used correctly. The goo vortex is bad and only worth anything when you have lvl 3 to combo the splash damage with maelstrom. It currently is not worth upgrading the unit drop bc marauders are good and wraiths are bad and there is no veterancy on the upgraded unit drop.

The voridus leader itself should be made stronger because aside from spreading goop he isn't very useful. He can lose a 1v1 to the Spartans while on his goop.

other than voridus though, I would like to see nerfs to pavium and Serena. Cryotech advances should be split into two points, requiring the 2nd point for the nodes and kodiaks. Also the shields on the cryo troopers need to have the same armor typing as the cryo troopers bc currently they eat extra suicide grunt dmg.
pavium hero needs to be nerfed so that it is killable without suicide grunts. Rain of fire needs a building damage nerf and a duration nerf and cd. And ultra mines need an increase in arm time and cooldown and a decrease in damage as it is currently an army wipe that you can throw on the enemy army instead of being played like a mine. The pavium hero heal drone should prob heal slower. You actually currently cannot beat pavium with shipmaster at all, I've tried it multiple times and can demonstrate if anyone would like.
Paviums stand should have its duration reduced to 10 seconds.

and most importantly arbiter phantoms should have the effect of conduit on them scaled down by like 35% as a full pop of phantoms (with units) can currently kill anything because conduit heals way too much on them, it can currently out heal the damage of cataclysm.

this isn't the most detailed post but I'm on my phone at dinner.
Is this because Phantoms are getting 3-4x the conduit effect because of the units in side of them or do they just have a high heal value?
Did you try level 3 conduit with marauders and also grunts by themselves?
Yeah Phantoms should be looked at because I also saw some high level testing and nothing beats level 3 conduit units in Phantoms
EiTeNeR wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
TheLoomx wrote:
I'm ready for scouts to be relevant and for voridus to be brought in line. But here's an unpopular opinion:
Voridus isn't THAT bad. The main issue is his invincibility early game. Deny nodes and supply caches with mines, destroy infantry mobs/backline snipers with grenadier drop, and take late game with low cooldowns maelstrom.

I believe all of these can be fixed without touching the efficiency of his goo.

I'm not on their data team but I suspect that their stats are showing voridus is overwhelming in the early game but is struggling closing out games if they don't end fast enough. Just a guess.

My suggestion has always been to rework mines in that it you destroy them before they arm it goes off for reduced damage but the special effect does not. Cryo mines, stasis mines, victory mines, etc. Half or so damage and losing the special effect. That way players are rewarded for their counterplay and quick reactions. Similar to anticipating and dodging, say, archer missiles.

Also, the sheer amount of time the gel sticks around after the mine goes off is unacceptable. Gel durations need a hard looking at. Again, I do not propose a change in damage, slow, or debuff. At least not yet.

Brute grenadier drop:

This one is tricky. It drops one unit that insofar as damage goes is quite pathetic. But it is useful for instsntly spreading gel at a targeted location. Open to balance suggestions with this one.

All in all, Voridus has no nukes and 1 notable unit drop mid-late game. Everything around this leader depends on gel usage. Invigorating frenzy, cataclysm, etc ALL rely on spreading gel in places you want it.

Voridus is the damage over time leader. Got it. Damage over time abilities leave tons of room for counterplay with mobility and game knowledge.

Once (if) scouts become viable that in of itself Will kneecap voridus a lot.

Long story short, he's probably one of the most fun leaders to play. I would hate to see him become useless.
But for now he is unbeatable if played correctly.
I feel you're going a bit overboard, as someone who plays this leader a lot I can say that he needs subtle tweaks. His grenadiers need to be stronger and potentially faster because by decreasing goop damage he may get overrun by early game infantry spams. But a fix to scouts might compensate. The leader y ability should probably be more like a really long game of snake rather than a bob Ross painting.

the duration of goop is the bigger problem and if the slow is touched it may be too extreme to also touch the damage. Late game Voridus has two options to wipe enemy armies regardless of army size. Both cataclysm and maelstrom are powerful when used correctly. The goo vortex is bad and only worth anything when you have lvl 3 to combo the splash damage with maelstrom. It currently is not worth upgrading the unit drop bc marauders are good and wraiths are bad and there is no veterancy on the upgraded unit drop.

The voridus leader itself should be made stronger because aside from spreading goop he isn't very useful. He can lose a 1v1 to the Spartans while on his goop.

other than voridus though, I would like to see nerfs to pavium and Serena. Cryotech advances should be split into two points, requiring the 2nd point for the nodes and kodiaks. Also the shields on the cryo troopers need to have the same armor typing as the cryo troopers bc currently they eat extra suicide grunt dmg.
pavium hero needs to be nerfed so that it is killable without suicide grunts. Rain of fire needs a building damage nerf and a duration nerf and cd. And ultra mines need an increase in arm time and cooldown and a decrease in damage as it is currently an army wipe that you can throw on the enemy army instead of being played like a mine. The pavium hero heal drone should prob heal slower. You actually currently cannot beat pavium with shipmaster at all, I've tried it multiple times and can demonstrate if anyone would like.
Paviums stand should have its duration reduced to 10 seconds.

and most importantly arbiter phantoms should have the effect of conduit on them scaled down by like 35% as a full pop of phantoms (with units) can currently kill anything because conduit heals way too much on them, it can currently out heal the damage of cataclysm.

this isn't the most detailed post but I'm on my phone at dinner.
Is this because Phantoms are getting 3-4x the conduit effect because of the units in side of them or do they just have a high heal value?
Did you try level 3 conduit with marauders and also grunts by themselves?
I didn't check other things, checking marauders would be a good idea. It just appears to be an issue of high heal value, but I wouldn't be surprised if what you are suggesting is happening.
They ain’t going to nerf voridus until at least a hundred people have bought atn.
This is game got stupid real quick with how strong they are making the covenant leaders. I mean they can almost destroy your base without even being near it with some of their leader powers, not to mention take out your whole army with just one. Then you throw in shields, invisibility, free units with yap yap, it don't end. This game was fun but I wish they would go back to the Halo olden days when it was a first person shooter.
You obviously didn't play much Forgehog, preseason, or season one.

You couldn't win with Banished in those days.
So what about Chopper engineers dominating season0-2?
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