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Balance Discussion 3.0 Scorpion's Revenge

OP THEWALL766

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Just wanted to add vordius gel makes forge hog and or his units very slow. The rate of speed is nonexistent almost as if he doesn't move compared to other leaders. I haven't come across this recently because no one has played him in the matches ive done but it makes ur army as forge really slow making it difficult to push or evade.

As for Serina completely agree on slow effects and everything else regarding her. As for breaking turtles T3 vehicles don't seem very effective at times largely because of the leader or maps u mentioned and overall killing power vs buildings. I also feel that siege and Kodiaks make people just want to build mass air to avoid a ground fight at times so it could help improving the resilence against leader powers and long range artillery for T3 vehicles and add more to people's play book.

Johnson is a leader that could be a headache to deal with largely because he can kite ur AT units like nothing and make his mechs invulnerable namely his mantis units, a slight nerf to speed would be nice or some love for AT mainly Cyclops.

Snipers need some more protection from noncounter units no doubt or more health and armor in general. Elite rangers i just dont know if being more tanky is better or what but it seems to take some time to kill the units they counter. Im just saying it seems difficult to understand their effectiveness at times.

Scout units dont seem to help any because granades or shrapnal mines wreck them, I can only say this for rabbits and choppers followed by their price tag.

Lastly, I just wanted to clarify that any nerf on CT marines would only affect their effectiveness vs ground core vehicles and not core air vehicles? I know the example given is for hogs to be more effective vs CT marines, all for it but just making sure.
what your talking about is actually a glitch with the defensive aura on the hog. When ever there is an AOE stun or slow on the hog, all the unit/vehicles in the aura will get stunned. I've noticed this especially bad when I play forge against Anders. Sentinel network literally makes it so I have 50 ish pop of paper weights as soon as 4th point comes around.

I pointed out changes to Johnson that will hopefully make is late game a bit better. I agree that cyclops are underperforming right now.

There are some changes to scouts in the document in the UNSC and Banished "general" sections. I don't want to buff them too much because despite what some top players will tell me, the scout metas were not fun.

Yes you are correct, I only want CT nerfed against vehicles such as hogs and marauders.
This is awesome. Lets just hope you will be heard...
Hunter Captain at this point lets Colony be a Dota 2/Smite esque leader that can play this RTS like a MOBA with how absurd HC is (Terminus firefight, HC can tank waves even up to 40-50 with taunt, siphon, and max veterancy), and with skitterers and the Engineer Swarm, Colony's leader is easily the best unit in the game for its cost. These changes seem good, but his damage should probably be rolled back a smidge as well. Considering you can pair two skitterers to him this shouldn't nerf him into the ground.

Edit: Colossi are also another good point, and while they are a bit TOO powerful, they are what T3 should look like in the sense that adding them actually adds strengths to your army. Though I personally would like to see Stomp re-done as it currently doesn't do really much of anything in a pitched battle.
Hunter Captain at this point lets Colony be a Dota 2/Smite esque leader that can play this RTS like a MOBA with how absurd HC is (Terminus firefight, HC can tank waves even up to 40-50 with taunt, siphon, and max veterancy), and with skitterers and the Engineer Swarm, Colony's leader is easily the best unit in the game for its cost. These changes seem good, but his damage should probably be rolled back a smidge as well. Considering you can pair two skitterers to him this shouldn't nerf him into the ground.

Edit: Colossi are also another good point, and while they are a bit TOO powerful, they are what T3 should look like in the sense that adding them actually adds strengths to your army. Though I personally would like to see Stomp re-done as it currently doesn't do really much of anything in a pitched battle.
The thing really is Collosi are good for sniping so its best their not close enough to use.
Quote:
TLDR
  • 15% armor buff on All T3 vehicles against leader Powers
  • 10% Building damage and health buff on Scorpion, Grizzly, and Wraith main guns hidden behind T3 upgrade
  • 30% armor buff on all T3 vehicles against siege
  • Helpful – 5% damage buff against T2 vehicles and 5% health buff for Scorpion, Grizzly, and Wraith
Why is everyone so focused on building damage for T3 vehicles? They are just too weak (HP) and not very mobile. You even mention mobility as an issue but you do not even propose a fix for that.

Why restrict the T3 upgrade to only building damage? This is more work than just giving them a raw 10% DPS buff. Again they under perform vs units also. It is more than just building damage that is holding them back.
EiTeNeR wrote:
Quote:
TLDR
  • 15% armor buff on All T3 vehicles against leader Powers
  • 10% Building damage and health buff on Scorpion, Grizzly, and Wraith main guns hidden behind T3 upgrade
  • 30% armor buff on all T3 vehicles against siege
  • Helpful – 5% damage buff against T2 vehicles and 5% health buff for Scorpion, Grizzly, and Wraith
Why is everyone so focused on building damage for T3 vehicles? They are just too weak (HP) and not very mobile. You even mention mobility as an issue but you do not even propose a fix for that.

Why restrict the T3 upgrade to only building damage? This is more work than just giving them a raw 10% DPS buff. Again they under perform vs units also. It is more than just building damage that is holding them back.
Potentially because we don't want t3 vehicles to begin to out do some air or anti-vehicle troups
I do have visions of a race to t3 tanks = win.
EiTeNeR wrote:
Quote:
TLDR
  • 15% armor buff on All T3 vehicles against leader Powers
  • 10% Building damage and health buff on Scorpion, Grizzly, and Wraith main guns hidden behind T3 upgrade
  • 30% armor buff on all T3 vehicles against siege
  • Helpful – 5% damage buff against T2 vehicles and 5% health buff for Scorpion, Grizzly, and Wraith
Why is everyone so focused on building damage for T3 vehicles? They are just too weak (HP) and not very mobile. You even mention mobility as an issue but you do not even propose a fix for that.

Why restrict the T3 upgrade to only building damage? This is more work than just giving them a raw 10% DPS buff. Again they under perform vs units also. It is more than just building damage that is holding them back.
Why restrict T3 upgrade damage to buildings?
A: From the interactions that ive seen, Tanks do decently well offensively against infantry and core vehicle. The Y-ability on all the tanks does a good job at tearing through hogs and I'm reasonably certain tanks do well against marauders. I also included a flat damage buff to core vehicle as the fourth bullet

The armor buffs to LPs and siege should fix a lot of the HP issues, even scorpions do pretty well against core vehicle. We aren't trying to have OP vehicles, we just want something strong and think this would be a good step forward. This also was what the discord came to mostly agree on over the few weeks we talked about it. I still want to test some of the interactions with the sugar cookies skull to get a better feel for what certain buffs will look like.
Hey THEWALL766,

I agree with the general directional idea of improving T3. Admittedly during my time playing the only time I've ever felt any kind of worry in seeing a tank-y attack or counter play in this game so far is Forge grizzlies w/ heavy metal, forgehog, and additional healing support when I don't already have a sizeable counter force. Literally everything else is usually nipped in the bud by LPs and other sometimes cheesy plays that make papier mache of what everyone probably assumed would be the best units in the game (ultimates excluded).

That out of the way, I'm curious regarding the comparisons you're using to make your argument (though I am by no means assuming that your listed reasons are the only reasons taken into account by the grouping of high end players referenced... I can tell y'all basically bleed for this game and therefore will rarely if ever take your opinions lightly). You referenced a spreadsheet you created and a resultant listing of building damage to pop comparisons, and regarding that in particular, 2 questions:
#1 can/will you make that full doc widely available? I understand that, if maintained, there would be varying versions as with balance changes
#2 was damage vs. Cost/build time a factor in these conversations, or did unit movement speed come up as a factor?

And in in regards to the general theme of improving T3, I didn't see too much listed by way of scaling up AV (Cyclops yes, by you already made the argument of those being behind the curve as is). Do you feel like AV should take a general buff (withor without a cost increase) to ensure that games turn purely into an arms race to T3 vehicles?

Also, final question, which I will come back and remove from this post if you'd prefer me putting it into a separate convo/topic so as to not distract from the main point/s:

How do you feel, in general, about getting fireteam sunray in as cutters leader before it's all said and done? Low priority by comparison for sure, and with caution so as to not introduce a new broken hero wildcard, but, not sure how much data y'all had from the yappening on them, Jerome exists as a separate leader/hero, and cutters hero currently is basically a pointless carbon copy of 2 others.
Hey THEWALL766,

I agree with the general directional idea of improving T3. Admittedly during my time playing the only time I've ever felt any kind of worry in seeing a tank-y attack or counter play in this game so far is Forge grizzlies w/ heavy metal, forgehog, and additional healing support when I don't already have a sizeable counter force. Literally everything else is usually nipped in the bud by LPs and other sometimes cheesy plays that make papier mache of what everyone probably assumed would be the best units in the game (ultimates excluded).

That out of the way, I'm curious regarding the comparisons you're using to make your argument (though I am by no means assuming that your listed reasons are the only reasons taken into account by the grouping of high end players referenced... I can tell y'all basically bleed for this game and therefore will rarely if ever take your opinions lightly). You referenced a spreadsheet you created and a resultant listing of building damage to pop comparisons, and regarding that in particular, 2 questions:
#1 can/will you make that full doc widely available? I understand that, if maintained, there would be varying versions as with balance changes
#2 was damage vs. Cost/build time a factor in these conversations, or did unit movement speed come up as a factor?

And in in regards to the general theme of improving T3, I didn't see too much listed by way of scaling up AV (Cyclops yes, by you already made the argument of those being behind the curve as is). Do you feel like AV should take a general buff (withor without a cost increase) to ensure that games turn purely into an arms race to T3 vehicles?

Also, final question, which I will come back and remove from this post if you'd prefer me putting it into a separate convo/topic so as to not distract from the main point/s:

How do you feel, in general, about getting fireteam sunray in as cutters leader before it's all said and done? Low priority by comparison for sure, and with caution so as to not introduce a new broken hero wildcard, but, not sure how much data y'all had from the yappening on them, Jerome exists as a separate leader/hero, and cutters hero currently is basically a pointless carbon copy of 2 others.
Ill do my best
1) The building damage chart that I referenced is an excel spreadsheet that I made a few months ago with metaloidmonkey and scootman. I have posted the results on Waypoint before but I think a lot has changed since the last time that happened. I have it pinned in the "Balance Discussion" tab of the Banished Discord for everyone to see. If you would like to see it, you can join the discord and look at it when ever you want. If you don't want to join a discord, you can PM me here and I can just e-mail you a copy of it. I want to put it out there for everyone to see, there just really isn't an easy way to do that. A link to the Banished Discord can be found on most of the Official HWCL waypoint posts at the top of the forums.

2) right now, its only building damage vs population but I want to expand that to include cost. I tried to make one for movement speed but I think life got in the way as I was trying to read game files. I can only look at what other data miners have posted and what is common knowledge so I'm limited with what I can do that isn't easily accessible open source material. I would love to be able to open game files for myself but time just doesn't allow that for now.

3) that's a very good point and I will go an update the post later on. My original plan was to have a buff to the T3 upgrade for AV in order to do more damage to T3 vehicles. My vision is to have hunters and clops lose to tanks per pop while they don't have the upgrade and to win per pop with the upgrade. I don't know where shock round cyclops currently sit but know assault beam is very underwhelming right now.

Bonus) I think if would be a lot cooler if Cutter had boomerang company as his leader than spartan Jerome. I think Boomerang company fits cutters kit a lot more, however, even though this was implemented during the yappening, that doesn't mean its feasible. The devs would have to create a new upgrade system for the hero as well as have art work designed for the unit and its upgrades. There are a lot of technical aspects that might not seem like a lot to an outsider, but actually require a lot of work and testing. I like the idea, but ive already asked for a lot of things here that take a lot of time and effort. A cooler cutter hero is pretty much a "gee that would be cool but there are more important things" change.
THEWALL766 wrote:
Just wanted to add vordius gel makes forge hog and or his units very slow. The rate of speed is nonexistent almost as if he doesn't move compared to other leaders. I haven't come across this recently because no one has played him in the matches ive done but it makes ur army as forge really slow making it difficult to push or evade.

As for Serina completely agree on slow effects and everything else regarding her. As for breaking turtles T3 vehicles don't seem very effective at times largely because of the leader or maps u mentioned and overall killing power vs buildings. I also feel that siege and Kodiaks make people just want to build mass air to avoid a ground fight at times so it could help improving the resilence against leader powers and long range artillery for T3 vehicles and add more to people's play book.

Johnson is a leader that could be a headache to deal with largely because he can kite ur AT units like nothing and make his mechs invulnerable namely his mantis units, a slight nerf to speed would be nice or some love for AT mainly Cyclops.

Snipers need some more protection from noncounter units no doubt or more health and armor in general. Elite rangers i just dont know if being more tanky is better or what but it seems to take some time to kill the units they counter. Im just saying it seems difficult to understand their effectiveness at times.

Scout units dont seem to help any because granades or shrapnal mines wreck them, I can only say this for rabbits and choppers followed by their price tag.

Lastly, I just wanted to clarify that any nerf on CT marines would only affect their effectiveness vs ground core vehicles and not core air vehicles? I know the example given is for hogs to be more effective vs CT marines, all for it but just making sure.
what your talking about is actually a glitch with the defensive aura on the hog. When ever there is an AOE stun or slow on the hog, all the unit/vehicles in the aura will get stunned. I've noticed this especially bad when I play forge against Anders. Sentinel network literally makes it so I have 50 ish pop of paper weights as soon as 4th point comes around.

I pointed out changes to Johnson that will hopefully make is late game a bit better. I agree that cyclops are underperforming right now.

There are some changes to scouts in the document in the UNSC and Banished "general" sections. I don't want to buff them too much because despite what some top players will tell me, the scout metas were not fun.

Yes you are correct, I only want CT nerfed against vehicles such as hogs and marauders.
Thanks for feedback.
Making T3 Units great again would be my all time favorite change to the balance. Currently my only reasons to hit tech 3 are to further upgrade my bases and units, not so I have access to the scorpions, vultures, Blisterbacks, Scarabs, Condors, and Wraiths. Making these units worth going to Tech 3 would add almost a whole different feel of entering the later stages of the game.
Just wanted to add vordius gel makes forge hog and or his units very slow. The rate of speed is nonexistent almost as if he doesn't move compared to other leaders. I haven't come across this recently because no one has played him in the matches ive done but it makes ur army as forge really slow making it difficult to push or evade.

As for Serina completely agree on slow effects and everything else regarding her. As for breaking turtles T3 vehicles don't seem very effective at times largely because of the leader or maps u mentioned and overall killing power vs buildings. I also feel that siege and Kodiaks make people just want to build mass air to avoid a ground fight at times so it could help improving the resilence against leader powers and long range artillery for T3 vehicles and add more to people's play book.

Johnson is a leader that could be a headache to deal with largely because he can kite ur AT units like nothing and make his mechs invulnerable namely his mantis units, a slight nerf to speed would be nice or some love for AT mainly Cyclops.

Snipers need some more protection from noncounter units no doubt or more health and armor in general. Elite rangers i just dont know if being more tanky is better or what but it seems to take some time to kill the units they counter. Im just saying it seems difficult to understand their effectiveness at times.

Scout units dont seem to help any because granades or shrapnal mines wreck them, I can only say this for rabbits and choppers followed by their price tag.

Lastly, I just wanted to clarify that any nerf on CT marines would only affect their effectiveness vs ground core vehicles and not core air vehicles? I know the example given is for hogs to be more effective vs CT marines, all for it but just making sure.
I completely agree about the goo still glitching forge and company. It's a pain

Loonsmile wrote:
I mostly agree with the changes Wall is proposing for the T3 tank units. However I have some concerns. Firstly if this change is going to happen it needs to happen for all T3 units across the board otherwise there will be a situation where some T3 units are too valuable for their pop compared to others. For example newly buffed scorpions per pop being stronger than Colossi. So in my opinions these buffs need to affect all the T3 units, that being: Scorpions, Grizzlies, Colossi, Vultures, Blisterbacks and Wraiths. Blisterbacks having that extra T3 toughness might make them actually viable as they could tank damage while on the ground do to their minimal range. Also the 30% reduction to siege damage seems a bit much. Siege is inherently anti-ground and tanks are a ground unit, 20% would be a more reasonable modifier.
And everyone who knows me knows I'm a Serina shill lol but seriously after this last buff Serina now has a chance to be viable in 1s. I'm not in favor of any nerfs to her kit as she still one of the most under-performing 1v1 leaders. The only change I would see being reasonable is a 5% chill rate reduction to core vehicles and a 10% chill rate reduction to heavy vehicles. Nothing else about her needs to change as far as nerfs. The bison's health does not need a reduction as it already gets shredded by air and is unique among all the hero units in that it is most effective when stationary and locked down in one position making it vulnerable. Serina's kit is built around freeze and controlling the ground game with area denial, she doesn't have an effective nuke until very late game when cryo stacks so significantly reducing her effectiveness to freeze will make her pointless to play and counter-playing against other leaders with aggressive kits will become nigh impossible.
I don't think scorpians would be stronger than colossi even if they had 100% buff. Colossi are very very strong compared to their T3 counterparts pop for pop. Never underestimate them.
Strongly agree with this post. T3 just isn't viable now, and is a logical next step in balance, particularly in base-breaking. Even as Johnson his colossi either suffer from UNSC siege turret spam, or banished cloaks with blisters/air/cleansing beam. For those complaining about the 30% armor boost in that situation, consider using anti-vehicle turrets rather than 8 siege turrets backed by air and wolvies.
Wall for the record I don't know why you got mad at me because you've never stated the direct numbers that you would like to reduce Serina's chill rate. I suggested 5% for core and 10% for heavy but you never responded to those numbers or updated your balance doc with them so when you say you want significant reductions to the chill rate one can only speculate if you're not giving out numbers. I think you've done a great job on the doc and I wrote my reasoned response up above.
These are some good points Wall. Can't really disagree with anything you brought up. I hope Postums and the others work some of these suggestions towards one of the next updates.
THEWALL766 wrote:
AcE Hisoka wrote:
Wow thanks to everyone who worked on this.
This are great changes and i agree 100%
But i would add to the list that the cooldown of the deci drop and retriever actually starts when the units are killed not when they are dropped.
Thanks again for this great list
Have a nice day guys
We agree 100% about the cooldown being adjusted so that it doesn't start going until after the unit death. Unfortunately that would require a code rework of the power and the devs have a lot of other things they need to work on such as MCC. It would be great but im pretty sure everything that I included was just a number change which is often the path of least resistance in getting a change.
Hey my friend could we add that Anti-air needs to do less damage to air or at least against support units,
maybe we could buff the production speed of AA to compensate. What do you guys think about it? Just curious.
For Decimus drop just increase his pop cost and reduce his HP and SP.

Decimus is 55000 HP and 20000 SP
Scarab is 89000 HP
Grizzly is 20000 HP

So reducing HP and SP by 2000 to 3500 each would help out. I think pop cost could also go to 14

Also there is no point in making cyro tech two points. The freeze rate on turrets and watch towers can be modified or removed. Some one should test the freeze rates from watch towers vs turrets because they have different values.
AcE Hisoka wrote:
THEWALL766 wrote:
AcE Hisoka wrote:
Wow thanks to everyone who worked on this.
This are great changes and i agree 100%
But i would add to the list that the cooldown of the deci drop and retriever actually starts when the units are killed not when they are dropped.
Thanks again for this great list
Have a nice day guys
We agree 100% about the cooldown being adjusted so that it doesn't start going until after the unit death. Unfortunately that would require a code rework of the power and the devs have a lot of other things they need to work on such as MCC. It would be great but im pretty sure everything that I included was just a number change which is often the path of least resistance in getting a change.
Hey my friend could we add that Anti-air needs to do less damage to air or at least against support units,
maybe we could buff the production speed of AA to compensate. What do you guys think about it? Just curious.
I have a strong Air is not OP persona but ill give you my opinion on why Air will never be truly balanced.

AA suffers from overkill, they fire way too many missiles at 1 target and most of them miss because the first target is eviscerated. Because of that, Air might appear more survivable if the AA isn't targeting the core of the air ball. To compensate for that AA is very resistant to Air damage, and Air itself is very flimsy. Because of this, most high level players do not like using air as a T2 transition because it loses to almost everything, has no survivability, and is crazy expensive per pop (banshees specifically). Unfortunately, reworking the AI for the targeting would be the coding equivalent of moving a mountain so hoping for a fix is out of the question. As long as the overkill exists, air will probably need to remain low health units in order to keep things "fair" more or less. I actually want to reduce the cost of banshees but there are very few ways of buffing air so that it is more usefull at T2 and not abusive at T3. There are many people that have proposed an acceleration buff to wolves, I think that is completely fair. I also have been toying with the idea of making hornets 5 pop and banshees 4 pop and buffing them accordingly so that we worry less about overkill and don't get air units rinsed by LPs, but that is pretty radical and I don't think ill get much support since a lot of people like the aesethic of "Massive armies".

TLDR, balancing air with the current AI is incredibly challenging and there is never a meaningful discussion because it always devolves into "Air is OP" vs "Air is Garbage".
EiTeNeR wrote:
For Decimus drop just increase his pop cost and reduce his HP and SP.

Decimus is 55000 HP and 20000 SP
Scarab is 89000 HP
Grizzly is 20000 HP

So reducing HP and SP by 2000 to 3500 each would help out. I think pop cost could also go to 14

Also there is no point in making cyro tech two points. The freeze rate on turrets and watch towers can be modified or removed. Some one should test the freeze rates from watch towers vs turrets because they have different values.
I don't believe that splitting cryo tech is something that we should ask for. It would take a lot of work. Ide rather just see the chill around turrets adjusted. I can look at watchtowers vs turrets tonight. Serina is just so difficult to adjust because the bugs where hogs literally stop when they hit a chill wave is devastating. Serina very easily could turn to low tier to OP if she isn't looked at smartly and I really want to giver her a viable kit that isn't miserable to play against.

I think the changes to the decimus hero are fair, ill ask around and see what other people think.
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