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Current State of Air

OP Simplicity177

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So out of curiosity what is everyone's opinions of air lately because I am currently getting pretty sick of playing matches where my teammate and I scout, take complete map control, produce marines and wolverines with infantry upgrades and combat tech then lose to double max pop air because air can seem to easily overcome its direct counters.
More like the state of ground
More like the state of ground
Finally!

Someone gets it.
Air is in a good place. Maybe a buff for vultures should be in the pipe-line, but that's my opinion - they just seem really underwhelming. Deci banshees are still too powerful, but that's a specific issue with boundless siphon.

Lately, whenever I see a complaint about full pop air balance I like to look at the last game that person played. I assume your frustration comes from this game:
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-gb/games/halo-wars-2/matches/2f4205a0-4113-48dc-b88a-d22586cd8d4f/players/simplicity177?gameHistoryMatchIndex=0&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=All

If you did scout them at 3-5 mins you would see that they were doing a (very bad actually) quick tech 2. If you don't neglect making units, then attacking them at 5 mins would have been unstoppable. Generally attacking at 5 mins means death to quick T2 into air.

You also started mass producing vultures towards the end .... interesting move. Conclusion: you had a bad game. If you're not going quick T2 yourself then you need to be more aggressive at T1 - especially with Cutter! Cutter has a great T1 that will demolish the quick T2 into air.
Decimus himself is totally overpowered. Leaderpowers are ridiculous.
Decimus is not OP. Air is still imbalanced.
Joey2552 wrote:
Decimus is not OP. Air is still imbalanced.
Explain
IMO, air is an okay spot right now.

For a while now, air has been good in teams but weak in 1's, which brings us to that argument of; should the game be balanced around 1's or 2's and 3's? Ideally, air would be viable in all playlists, but it seems that's simply not possible, unfortunately.

In 1's, it's awful and is really only used to end games when one player is way ahead and needs to break a turtle. However, in teams, it's not too bad. On maps like Highway, Vault, and Fissures, properly supported air blobs can do really well.

When it comes to air units beating there counters, I'm going to have to heavily disagree with you there. AA is very strong right now and rolls over air. Infantry is also doing extremely well against right now, though, infantry won't usually get the opportunity to fight the much quicker air blob. I am happy to test this with you if you don't believe me.

If anything, I think AA needs to be brought down a whisker. At the very least, I would like to see the cost reduction reverted. But that's a topic for another time.

Oh, and GG earlier, by the way!
IMO, air is an okay spot right now.

For a while now, air has been good in teams but weak in 1's, which brings us to that argument of; should the game be balanced around 1's or 2's and 3's? Ideally, air would be viable in all playlists, but it seems that's simply not possible, unfortunately.

In 1's, it's awful and is really only used to end games when one player is way ahead and needs to break a turtle. However, in teams, it's not too bad. On maps like Highway, Vault, and Fissures, properly supported air blobs can do really well.

When it comes to air units beating there counters, I'm going to have to heavily disagree with you there. AA is very strong right and rolls over AA. Infantry is also doing extremely well against right now, though, infantry won't usually get the opportunity to fight the much quicker air blob. I am happy to test this with you if you don't believe me.

If anything, I think AA needs to be brought down a whisker. At the very least, I would like to see the cost reduction reverted. But that's a topic for another time.

Oh, and GG earlier, by the way!
Yeah GG for that game, was well played. I mean based on all these comments the only conclusion I can come to is I am doing something wrong but for the life of me I cannot figure out what, very consistently max banshees seem to be rolling over me.
I also don't think AA weak or anything, but the actual problem is it's cost. Specific counter units which only work vs one thing, shouldn't be more expensive than a allround unit. The same with Cyclops.
The Problem with air in teamgames, is the high mobility with base sniping potential, as well that core air units can all attack one building or unit at once , cause they need little to no space. For example , tanks are much more difficult to clump together and with this effectly attack a base while all units are in range.
Another thing is the focus fire of wolverines which negate alot of their potential.
If you got max population air and want to snipe a base, 6 wolverines won't stop you, even when they are left at the base, which is also dead pop.
Also when the enemy goes full pop wolves, you can still snipe his bases , because you have the far greater mobility.
Even when he arrives in time you can just focus fire the base loose like 1/4 of your pop and still have an cost effective fight.

In my opinion a solution would be , increasing the pop of banshes and hornets by 1, so they can't be massed so easily and give them a slight buff in health and dmg vs everything but AA and buildings.
In the end you have fewer more effective units, which can be better countered by AA (focus fire negating) and can still be viable.

*and buff the vulture
Joey2552 wrote:
Decimus is not OP. Air is still imbalanced.
Explain
Decimus has powerfull passive leader powers because he doesn’t have any powerfull active leader powers.
I also don't think AA weak or anything, but the actual problem is it's cost. Specific counter units which only work vs one thing, shouldn't be more expensive than a allround unit. The same with Cyclops.
The Problem with air in teamgames, is the high mobility with base sniping potential, as well that core air units can all attack one building or unit at once , cause they need little to no space. For example , tanks are much more difficult to clump together and with this effectly attack a base while all units are in range.
Another thing is the focus fire of wolverines which negate alot of their potential.
If you got max population air and want to snipe a base, 6 wolverines won't stop you, even when they are left at the base, which is also dead pop.
Also when the enemy goes full pop wolves, you can still snipe his bases , because you have the far greater mobility.
Even when he arrives in time you can just focus fire the base loose like 1/4 of your pop and still have an cost effective fight.

In my opinion a solution would be , increasing the pop of banshes and hornets by 1, so they can't be massed so easily and give them a slight buff in health and dmg vs everything but AA and buildings.
In the end you have fewer more effective units, which can be better countered by AA (focus fire negating) and can still be viable.

*and buff the vulture
I want to see these "6 wolves won't stop you" cause if you have a similar upgrade level to the air the wolves are going to do a ton if properly micro'd especially when combo'd with AA turrets. In teams you have two armies and if one or both of your enemies are going mass air you only need one type of unit to counter them and with proper micro you can just absolutly wreck air right now especially mass air. The only time i've even seen air being useful recently in 2s when some of it is mixed in and not much of it (at most half of one players pop). You also mention air taking up less space so it's easier to focus fire a bass, this is a complete double edged sword as leader powers and the splash damage off AA will munch up clumped air super fast. IDK maybe you know something I don't and if you think so I will gladly custom you in teams so you can show me why air is so good. I agree it can be a lot harder to stop if you are playing someone with passives like deci but that is a problem with him not the units themselves.
Joey2552 wrote:
Decimus is not OP. Air is still imbalanced.
Explain
Decimus has powerfull passive leader powers because he doesn’t have any powerfull active leader powers.
Excuse me sir did you just say Decimus doesn't have any powerful active leader powers? What about glassing beam the best offensive power in the game ATM and the one that stuns the second leader point he gets.
LUCIANHEAT wrote:
Joey2552 wrote:
Decimus is not OP. Air is still imbalanced.
Explain
Decimus has powerfull passive leader powers because he doesn’t have any powerfull active leader powers.
Excuse me sir did you just say Decimus doesn't have any powerful active leader powers? What about glassing beam the best offensive power in the game ATM and the one that stuns the second leader point he gets.
I forgot about glassing beam. Before glassing beam became op, Decimus was fairly balanced because of the above. Now Decimus is op because of glassing beam
I also don't think AA weak or anything, but the actual problem is it's cost. Specific counter units which only work vs one thing, shouldn't be more expensive than a allround unit. The same with Cyclops.
The Problem with air in teamgames, is the high mobility with base sniping potential, as well that core air units can all attack one building or unit at once , cause they need little to no space. For example , tanks are much more difficult to clump together and with this effectly attack a base while all units are in range.
Another thing is the focus fire of wolverines which negate alot of their potential.
If you got max population air and want to snipe a base, 6 wolverines won't stop you, even when they are left at the base, which is also dead pop.
Also when the enemy goes full pop wolves, you can still snipe his bases , because you have the far greater mobility.
Even when he arrives in time you can just focus fire the base loose like 1/4 of your pop and still have an cost effective fight.

In my opinion a solution would be , increasing the pop of banshes and hornets by 1, so they can't be massed so easily and give them a slight buff in health and dmg vs everything but AA and buildings.
In the end you have fewer more effective units, which can be better countered by AA (focus fire negating) and can still be viable.

*and buff the vulture
I want to see these "6 wolves won't stop you" cause if you have a similar upgrade level to the air the wolves are going to do a ton if properly micro'd especially when combo'd with AA turrets. In teams you have two armies and if one or both of your enemies are going mass air you only need one type of unit to counter them and with proper micro you can just absolutly wreck air right now especially mass air. The only time i've even seen air being useful recently in 2s when some of it is mixed in and not much of it (at most half of one players pop). You also mention air taking up less space so it's easier to focus fire a bass, this is a complete double edged sword as leader powers and the splash damage off AA will munch up clumped air super fast. IDK maybe you know something I don't and if you think so I will gladly custom you in teams so you can show me why air is so good. I agree it can be a lot harder to stop if you are playing someone with passives like deci but that is a problem with him not the units themselves.
i was refering to team games there, in 1 vs1 air is easily denied and counteren, in 3vs 3 its pretty hard if 2 or more go air and turtle hard.
Its pretty difficult not to play passive the whole time and almost impossible to move out on the map.
For example, you let 6 wolverines where you claim that they beat full pop air at each of your at least 2 bases you have 12 units dead pop which doesnt help when you attack an enemys base. In addition you have to get some anti air in your army too, to defend against mass air engagements. With this your push will be very weak and if they turtle almost unbeatable.
At least thats my problem when i play 3 vs 3
I also don't think AA weak or anything, but the actual problem is it's cost. Specific counter units which only work vs one thing, shouldn't be more expensive than a allround unit. The same with Cyclops.
The Problem with air in teamgames, is the high mobility with base sniping potential, as well that core air units can all attack one building or unit at once , cause they need little to no space. For example , tanks are much more difficult to clump together and with this effectly attack a base while all units are in range.
Another thing is the focus fire of wolverines which negate alot of their potential.
If you got max population air and want to snipe a base, 6 wolverines won't stop you, even when they are left at the base, which is also dead pop.
Also when the enemy goes full pop wolves, you can still snipe his bases , because you have the far greater mobility.
Even when he arrives in time you can just focus fire the base loose like 1/4 of your pop and still have an cost effective fight.

In my opinion a solution would be , increasing the pop of banshes and hornets by 1, so they can't be massed so easily and give them a slight buff in health and dmg vs everything but AA and buildings.
In the end you have fewer more effective units, which can be better countered by AA (focus fire negating) and can still be viable.

*and buff the vulture
I want to see these "6 wolves won't stop you" cause if you have a similar upgrade level to the air the wolves are going to do a ton if properly micro'd especially when combo'd with AA turrets. In teams you have two armies and if one or both of your enemies are going mass air you only need one type of unit to counter them and with proper micro you can just absolutly wreck air right now especially mass air. The only time i've even seen air being useful recently in 2s when some of it is mixed in and not much of it (at most half of one players pop). You also mention air taking up less space so it's easier to focus fire a bass, this is a complete double edged sword as leader powers and the splash damage off AA will munch up clumped air super fast. IDK maybe you know something I don't and if you think so I will gladly custom you in teams so you can show me why air is so good. I agree it can be a lot harder to stop if you are playing someone with passives like deci but that is a problem with him not the units themselves.
i was refering to team games there, in 1 vs1 air is easily denied and counteren, in 3vs 3 its pretty hard if 2 or more go air and turtle hard.
Its pretty difficult not to play passive the whole time and almost impossible to move out on the map.
For example, you let 6 wolverines where you claim that they beat full pop air at each of your at least 2 bases you have 12 units dead pop which doesnt help when you attack an enemys base. In addition you have to get some anti air in your army too, to defend against mass air engagements. With this your push will be very weak and if they turtle almost unbeatable.
At least thats my problem when i play 3 vs 3
I was talking about teams, when you're pushing you don't nesscarily need to leave units behind, Most maps the bases are pretty close together so you can quickly get onto the enemy and drop bases, with just 2-3 wolves left behind and 4 AA turrets you will cripple the enemy air army enough that you will win the base trade easily especially as you can retrain a couple of extra AA units when you a few units in your push. With the recent nerfs to air vs building they are no where near as effective and with the high cost of air in terms of supply and how useless it is till you get a lot of it up you can really punish them while they are building up to that point. If you are losing map control and are unable to break even one base when they are getting up to tech 3 for the air then you need to change something about your plays. BTW when I said I would customs you I meant teams not 1v1 I can do 2s easily and 3s might take a bit longer to get a team together but I would imiange there would be people here that would be happy to help me prove air is not in OP.
I also don't think AA weak or anything, but the actual problem is it's cost. Specific counter units which only work vs one thing, shouldn't be more expensive than a allround unit. The same with Cyclops.
The Problem with air in teamgames, is the high mobility with base sniping potential, as well that core air units can all attack one building or unit at once , cause they need little to no space. For example , tanks are much more difficult to clump together and with this effectly attack a base while all units are in range.
Another thing is the focus fire of wolverines which negate alot of their potential.
If you got max population air and want to snipe a base, 6 wolverines won't stop you, even when they are left at the base, which is also dead pop.
Also when the enemy goes full pop wolves, you can still snipe his bases , because you have the far greater mobility.
Even when he arrives in time you can just focus fire the base loose like 1/4 of your pop and still have an cost effective fight.

In my opinion a solution would be , increasing the pop of banshes and hornets by 1, so they can't be massed so easily and give them a slight buff in health and dmg vs everything but AA and buildings.
In the end you have fewer more effective units, which can be better countered by AA (focus fire negating) and can still be viable.

*and buff the vulture
I want to see these "6 wolves won't stop you" cause if you have a similar upgrade level to the air the wolves are going to do a ton if properly micro'd especially when combo'd with AA turrets. In teams you have two armies and if one or both of your enemies are going mass air you only need one type of unit to counter them and with proper micro you can just absolutly wreck air right now especially mass air. The only time i've even seen air being useful recently in 2s when some of it is mixed in and not much of it (at most half of one players pop). You also mention air taking up less space so it's easier to focus fire a bass, this is a complete double edged sword as leader powers and the splash damage off AA will munch up clumped air super fast. IDK maybe you know something I don't and if you think so I will gladly custom you in teams so you can show me why air is so good. I agree it can be a lot harder to stop if you are playing someone with passives like deci but that is a problem with him not the units themselves.
i was refering to team games there, in 1 vs1 air is easily denied and counteren, in 3vs 3 its pretty hard if 2 or more go air and turtle hard.
Its pretty difficult not to play passive the whole time and almost impossible to move out on the map.
For example, you let 6 wolverines where you claim that they beat full pop air at each of your at least 2 bases you have 12 units dead pop which doesnt help when you attack an enemys base. In addition you have to get some anti air in your army too, to defend against mass air engagements. With this your push will be very weak and if they turtle almost unbeatable.
At least thats my problem when i play 3 vs 3
I was talking about teams, when you're pushing you don't nesscarily need to leave units behind, Most maps the bases are pretty close together so you can quickly get onto the enemy and drop bases, with just 2-3 wolves left behind and 4 AA turrets you will cripple the enemy air army enough that you will win the base trade easily especially as you can retrain a couple of extra AA units when you a few units in your push. With the recent nerfs to air vs building they are no where near as effective and with the high cost of air in terms of supply and how useless it is till you get a lot of it up you can really punish them while they are building up to that point. If you are losing map control and are unable to break even one base when they are getting up to tech 3 for the air then you need to change something about your plays. BTW when I said I would customs you I meant teams not 1v1 I can do 2s easily and 3s might take a bit longer to get a team together but I would imiange there would be people here that would be happy to help me prove air is not in OP.
they are still one of the most efficient base melter. Tested on youtube.A T3 UNSC base in 22 seconds.
And mate im plat u are grrandmaster, of course you will win, we could also do this in starcraft where im master at the moment , where i can kill you with lings only while you have for example helions.
Right now its fact that in the lower leagues = under dia for many people air is a problem in teamgames.
And i even doubt your quote that 6 wolves can kill full pop air. We can gladly do this, cause that test was also made on youtube a while ago, you need 10 wolves to kill mass air unmicroed by both sides
Joey2552 wrote:
Decimus is not OP. Air is still imbalanced.
Explain
Decimus has powerfull passive leader powers because he doesn’t have any powerfull active leader powers.
I’m going to have to disagree with that. Vortex, Beam, Fury, and Decimus drop are all awesome offensive leader powers. A well timed fury with a vortex lightning can absolutely demolish an army or base. Decimus is still one of the best leaders in the game.
I also don't think AA weak or anything, but the actual problem is it's cost. Specific counter units which only work vs one thing, shouldn't be more expensive than a allround unit. The same with Cyclops.
The Problem with air in teamgames, is the high mobility with base sniping potential, as well that core air units can all attack one building or unit at once , cause they need little to no space. For example , tanks are much more difficult to clump together and with this effectly attack a base while all units are in range.
Another thing is the focus fire of wolverines which negate alot of their potential.
If you got max population air and want to snipe a base, 6 wolverines won't stop you, even when they are left at the base, which is also dead pop.
Also when the enemy goes full pop wolves, you can still snipe his bases , because you have the far greater mobility.
Even when he arrives in time you can just focus fire the base loose like 1/4 of your pop and still have an cost effective fight.

In my opinion a solution would be , increasing the pop of banshes and hornets by 1, so they can't be massed so easily and give them a slight buff in health and dmg vs everything but AA and buildings.
In the end you have fewer more effective units, which can be better countered by AA (focus fire negating) and can still be viable.

*and buff the vulture
I want to see these "6 wolves won't stop you" cause if you have a similar upgrade level to the air the wolves are going to do a ton if properly micro'd especially when combo'd with AA turrets. In teams you have two armies and if one or both of your enemies are going mass air you only need one type of unit to counter them and with proper micro you can just absolutly wreck air right now especially mass air. The only time i've even seen air being useful recently in 2s when some of it is mixed in and not much of it (at most half of one players pop). You also mention air taking up less space so it's easier to focus fire a bass, this is a complete double edged sword as leader powers and the splash damage off AA will munch up clumped air super fast. IDK maybe you know something I don't and if you think so I will gladly custom you in teams so you can show me why air is so good. I agree it can be a lot harder to stop if you are playing someone with passives like deci but that is a problem with him not the units themselves.
i was refering to team games there, in 1 vs1 air is easily denied and counteren, in 3vs 3 its pretty hard if 2 or more go air and turtle hard.
Its pretty difficult not to play passive the whole time and almost impossible to move out on the map.
For example, you let 6 wolverines where you claim that they beat full pop air at each of your at least 2 bases you have 12 units dead pop which doesnt help when you attack an enemys base. In addition you have to get some anti air in your army too, to defend against mass air engagements. With this your push will be very weak and if they turtle almost unbeatable.
At least thats my problem when i play 3 vs 3
I was talking about teams, when you're pushing you don't nesscarily need to leave units behind, Most maps the bases are pretty close together so you can quickly get onto the enemy and drop bases, with just 2-3 wolves left behind and 4 AA turrets you will cripple the enemy air army enough that you will win the base trade easily especially as you can retrain a couple of extra AA units when you a few units in your push. With the recent nerfs to air vs building they are no where near as effective and with the high cost of air in terms of supply and how useless it is till you get a lot of it up you can really punish them while they are building up to that point. If you are losing map control and are unable to break even one base when they are getting up to tech 3 for the air then you need to change something about your plays. BTW when I said I would customs you I meant teams not 1v1 I can do 2s easily and 3s might take a bit longer to get a team together but I would imiange there would be people here that would be happy to help me prove air is not in OP.
they are still one of the most efficient base melter. Tested on youtube.A T3 UNSC base in 22 seconds.
And mate im plat u are grrandmaster, of course you will win, we could also do this in starcraft where im master at the moment , where i can kill you with lings only while you have for example helions.
Right now its fact that in the lower leagues = under dia for many people air is a problem in teamgames.
And i even doubt your quote that 6 wolves can kill full pop air. We can gladly do this, cause that test was also made on youtube a while ago, you need 10 wolves to kill mass air unmicroed by both sides
I don't understand what you want to happen. If you recognise that it's only in low level play then the problem is people just need to learn how to play the game better. What do you want 343 to do? Make it so air just isn't in the game at all? I'm telling you right now air is imo slightly underpowered when you have good micro to "has its place" in lower level teams so I can't see how doing anyhting else will help, AA has already gained a speed buff and other buffs aswell. You just need to keep decent map vision and send your AA to defend the affected areas and on most maps it's pretty easy to make sure it doesn't even get to that point as air can't engage any AA at all until you have a lot of it up so till that point it's bascially a 3v2 and if you can't win then nerfing air isn't going to help you. I'm not 100% sure if 6 wolves can kill full pop air when it's kiting around a 4 turret AA base but it will sure as hell do enough that your other 96 pop can go and wreck their now undefended bases.
Postums wrote:
Joey2552 wrote:
Decimus is not OP. Air is still imbalanced.
Explain
Decimus has powerfull passive leader powers because he doesn’t have any powerfull active leader powers.
I’m going to have to disagree with that. Vortex, Beam, Fury, and Decimus drop are all awesome leader powers. A well timed fury with a vortex lightning can absolutely demolish an army or base. Decimus is still one of the best leaders in the game.
agreed deci has one of my favourite kits, great passivs, votex and beam which especially in teams can be used for incredible combos, deci drop (AKA drop a walking tank who also spits out glassing beams) and then active siphon and fury which can be used to drop on your own or your ally units. Guess he also has that sui drop but like why drop in suis when I can drop a guy with a health bar that big and siphon abilities and pulling in units.
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