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Current State of Air

OP Simplicity177

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I also don't think AA weak or anything, but the actual problem is it's cost. Specific counter units which only work vs one thing, shouldn't be more expensive than a allround unit. The same with Cyclops.
The Problem with air in teamgames, is the high mobility with base sniping potential, as well that core air units can all attack one building or unit at once , cause they need little to no space. For example , tanks are much more difficult to clump together and with this effectly attack a base while all units are in range.
Another thing is the focus fire of wolverines which negate alot of their potential.
If you got max population air and want to snipe a base, 6 wolverines won't stop you, even when they are left at the base, which is also dead pop.
Also when the enemy goes full pop wolves, you can still snipe his bases , because you have the far greater mobility.
Even when he arrives in time you can just focus fire the base loose like 1/4 of your pop and still have an cost effective fight.

In my opinion a solution would be , increasing the pop of banshes and hornets by 1, so they can't be massed so easily and give them a slight buff in health and dmg vs everything but AA and buildings.
In the end you have fewer more effective units, which can be better countered by AA (focus fire negating) and can still be viable.

*and buff the vulture
I want to see these "6 wolves won't stop you" cause if you have a similar upgrade level to the air the wolves are going to do a ton if properly micro'd especially when combo'd with AA turrets. In teams you have two armies and if one or both of your enemies are going mass air you only need one type of unit to counter them and with proper micro you can just absolutly wreck air right now especially mass air. The only time i've even seen air being useful recently in 2s when some of it is mixed in and not much of it (at most half of one players pop). You also mention air taking up less space so it's easier to focus fire a bass, this is a complete double edged sword as leader powers and the splash damage off AA will munch up clumped air super fast. IDK maybe you know something I don't and if you think so I will gladly custom you in teams so you can show me why air is so good. I agree it can be a lot harder to stop if you are playing someone with passives like deci but that is a problem with him not the units themselves.
i was refering to team games there, in 1 vs1 air is easily denied and counteren, in 3vs 3 its pretty hard if 2 or more go air and turtle hard.
Its pretty difficult not to play passive the whole time and almost impossible to move out on the map.
For example, you let 6 wolverines where you claim that they beat full pop air at each of your at least 2 bases you have 12 units dead pop which doesnt help when you attack an enemys base. In addition you have to get some anti air in your army too, to defend against mass air engagements. With this your push will be very weak and if they turtle almost unbeatable.
At least thats my problem when i play 3 vs 3
I was talking about teams, when you're pushing you don't nesscarily need to leave units behind, Most maps the bases are pretty close together so you can quickly get onto the enemy and drop bases, with just 2-3 wolves left behind and 4 AA turrets you will cripple the enemy air army enough that you will win the base trade easily especially as you can retrain a couple of extra AA units when you a few units in your push. With the recent nerfs to air vs building they are no where near as effective and with the high cost of air in terms of supply and how useless it is till you get a lot of it up you can really punish them while they are building up to that point. If you are losing map control and are unable to break even one base when they are getting up to tech 3 for the air then you need to change something about your plays. BTW when I said I would customs you I meant teams not 1v1 I can do 2s easily and 3s might take a bit longer to get a team together but I would imiange there would be people here that would be happy to help me prove air is not in OP.
they are still one of the most efficient base melter. Tested on youtube.A T3 UNSC base in 22 seconds.
And mate im plat u are grrandmaster, of course you will win, we could also do this in starcraft where im master at the moment , where i can kill you with lings only while you have for example helions.
Right now its fact that in the lower leagues = under dia for many people air is a problem in teamgames.
And i even doubt your quote that 6 wolves can kill full pop air. We can gladly do this, cause that test was also made on youtube a while ago, you need 10 wolves to kill mass air unmicroed by both sides
I don't understand what you want to happen. If you recognise that it's only in low level play then the problem is people just need to learn how to play the game better. What do you want 343 to do? Make it so air just isn't in the game at all? I'm telling you right now air is imo slightly underpowered when you have good micro to "has its place" in lower level teams so I can't see how doing anyhting else will help, AA has already gained a speed buff and other buffs aswell. You just need to keep decent map vision and send your AA to defend the affected areas and on most maps it's pretty easy to make sure it doesn't even get to that point as air can't engage any AA at all until you have a lot of it up so till that point it's bascially a 3v2 and if you can't win then nerfing air isn't going to help you. I'm not 100% sure if 6 wolves can kill full pop air when it's kiting around a 4 turret AA base but it will sure as hell do enough that your other 96 pop can go and wreck their now undefended bases.
And i already agreed you air in 1 vs 1 is very weak, only in teamgames it's very difficult to handle,
I contribute to the forum with suggesting changes like buffing air but increase the pop , this will help in lower leagues , cause it's harder to missmicro, and teamgames cause the focus fire is beeing negated at least a bit.

And yes the game should be balanced in lower but also in higher leagues .
Postums wrote:
Joey2552 wrote:
Decimus is not OP. Air is still imbalanced.
Explain
Decimus has powerfull passive leader powers because he doesn’t have any powerfull active leader powers.
I’m going to have to disagree with that. Vortex, Beam, Fury, and Decimus drop are all awesome offensive leader powers. A well timed fury with a vortex lightning can absolutely demolish an army or base. Decimus is still one of the best leaders in the game.
Right now using any unit type that cost energy is a problem, it has been since the generator nerf and supplies are overly abundant even without them being upgraded. Plus out of both air that are not Decimus, I'd say hornets are the strongest and maybe wingman damage needs to be nerfed a bit as well as building damage.
I think air is a little too easy to counter with reavers. I just make like 6-8 and I'm good to go against air. Only air units that I think need to be toned down are the protector sentinels. They melt AA when you make a full army of them. I have to make a ton of reavers to stop them. Banshees seem a little underwhelming in 1v1s I think hornets are perfect as is.
I think air is a little too easy to counter with reavers. I just make like 6-8 and I'm good to go against air. Only air units that I think need to be toned down are the protector sentinels. They melt AA when you make a full army of them. I have to make a ton of reavers to stop them. Banshees seem a little underwhelming in 1v1s I think hornets are perfect as is.
You also have to spend 2 leader points that only really work on that one specific unit type to get them that good (1 for the sentinels themselves, another for the shields). If I need to spend 2 leader points on things that only apply to 1 unit type, that unit type better be good. Kill full pop Reavers good? Probably not, but definitely a cut above Hornets/Banshees.
I did some testing last week, and as I mentioned in my post then, AA has a very difficult time engaging air if they are both on different sides of a base. If AA received a 50-66% range buff, you could position them behind your base and have them attack the enemy air units on the other side without issue.

The other major issue IMO is the overkill effect, where multiple units fire missiles at the same low-health target, and most of the projectiles fly off after it dies. Two theoretical solutions are the missiles automatically acquiring a new target after the current target is destroyed, or adding a proximity fuse (upgrade?) where they will automatically explode once within a certain range of any enemy air target.
AYF 001 wrote:
I did some testing last week, and as I mentioned in my post then, AA has a very difficult time engaging air if they are both on different sides of a base. If AA received a 50-66% range buff, you could position them behind your base and have them attack the enemy air units on the other side without issue.

The other major issue IMO is the overkill effect, where multiple units fire missiles at the same low-health target, and most of the projectiles fly off after it dies. Two theoretical solutions are the missiles automatically acquiring a new target after the current target is destroyed, or adding a proximity fuse (upgrade?) where they will automatically explode once within a certain range of any enemy air target.
the range is NOT something that needs to be buffed. You have to move your AA so that it is just in range of the air and constantly run away when the air chases. Doing this around a base is even easier then in the open because of the air not flying over it. AA has enough splash damage that overkill is not a huge issue in games I have played. I even recently went against two good players in 2s who both went mass air. It was such a joke how easy it was. We were pretty much not playing and even when they did manage to drop a base they lost over 80 pop worth of air to my 40 pop of reavers while at the same time they lost all their bases to our troops.

Edit: if you buff AA range then air would literally be an absolute joke and could never be built at all whereas right now it can at least be used situationally.
I think air is a little too easy to counter with reavers. I just make like 6-8 and I'm good to go against air. Only air units that I think need to be toned down are the protector sentinels. They melt AA when you make a full army of them. I have to make a ton of reavers to stop them. Banshees seem a little underwhelming in 1v1s I think hornets are perfect as is.
You also have to spend 2 leader points that only really work on that one specific unit type to get them that good (1 for the sentinels themselves, another for the shields). If I need to spend 2 leader points on things that only apply to 1 unit type, that unit type better be good. Kill full pop Reavers good? Probably not, but definitely a cut above Hornets/Banshees.
I never said a full pop of reavers but you have to make a lot. And I'm referring to late game with the protector sentinels where leader points are more abundant. Saying that they should be stronger because you spend leader points to unlock them isn't valid because the protector sentinels are the bread and butter of Anders and every good Anders will unlock them as soon as possible because they are a bit op
I think air is a little too easy to counter with reavers. I just make like 6-8 and I'm good to go against air. Only air units that I think need to be toned down are the protector sentinels. They melt AA when you make a full army of them. I have to make a ton of reavers to stop them. Banshees seem a little underwhelming in 1v1s I think hornets are perfect as is.
You also have to spend 2 leader points that only really work on that one specific unit type to get them that good (1 for the sentinels themselves, another for the shields). If I need to spend 2 leader points on things that only apply to 1 unit type, that unit type better be good. Kill full pop Reavers good? Probably not, but definitely a cut above Hornets/Banshees.
I never said a full pop of reavers but you have to make a lot. And I'm referring to late game with the protector sentinels where leader points are more abundant. Saying that they should be stronger because you spend leader points to unlock them isn't valid because the protector sentinels are the bread and butter of Anders and every good Anders will unlock them as soon as possible because they are a bit op
sentinels are only OP when massed with almost full pop. Her r&d 2 is almost always going to win out over an anders going sentinels especially because it allows you to get cheap and quick CM marines and upgraded spartan which are very effective vs the sents till they get en mass. If you watch some of the recent tournements of high level players that went anders none of them went sentinels. Late game they are a bit OP right now especially when you combine it with her seige turrets and spartan and her other sentinel drops but fortunately this is rarely a problem right now as very few games get to that point.
I think air is a little too easy to counter with reavers. I just make like 6-8 and I'm good to go against air. Only air units that I think need to be toned down are the protector sentinels. They melt AA when you make a full army of them. I have to make a ton of reavers to stop them. Banshees seem a little underwhelming in 1v1s I think hornets are perfect as is.
You also have to spend 2 leader points that only really work on that one specific unit type to get them that good (1 for the sentinels themselves, another for the shields). If I need to spend 2 leader points on things that only apply to 1 unit type, that unit type better be good. Kill full pop Reavers good? Probably not, but definitely a cut above Hornets/Banshees.
I never said a full pop of reavers but you have to make a lot. And I'm referring to late game with the protector sentinels where leader points are more abundant. Saying that they should be stronger because you spend leader points to unlock them isn't valid because the protector sentinels are the bread and butter of Anders and every good Anders will unlock them as soon as possible because they are a bit op
sentinels are only OP when massed with almost full pop. Her r&d 2 is almost always going to win out over an anders going sentinels especially because it allows you to get cheap and quick CM marines and upgraded spartan which are very effective vs the sents till they get en mass. If you watch some of the recent tournements of high level players that went anders none of them went sentinels. Late game they are a bit OP right now especially when you combine it with her seige turrets and spartan and her other sentinel drops but fortunately this is rarely a problem right now as very few games get to that point.
Yeah that's true, I lost a two hour game against Anders because of those sentinels lol
I think air is a little too easy to counter with reavers. I just make like 6-8 and I'm good to go against air. Only air units that I think need to be toned down are the protector sentinels. They melt AA when you make a full army of them. I have to make a ton of reavers to stop them. Banshees seem a little underwhelming in 1v1s I think hornets are perfect as is.
You also have to spend 2 leader points that only really work on that one specific unit type to get them that good (1 for the sentinels themselves, another for the shields). If I need to spend 2 leader points on things that only apply to 1 unit type, that unit type better be good. Kill full pop Reavers good? Probably not, but definitely a cut above Hornets/Banshees.
I never said a full pop of reavers but you have to make a lot. And I'm referring to late game with the protector sentinels where leader points are more abundant. Saying that they should be stronger because you spend leader points to unlock them isn't valid because the protector sentinels are the bread and butter of Anders and every good Anders will unlock them as soon as possible because they are a bit op
What I was getting at is that they shouldn't beat, or even come close to beating full pop AA (But they do), but should still trade better with it vs normal air. The fact that an entire LP is dedicated to getting the core unit to begin with, and the fact that you need another LP that almost strictly works on sentinels to make them as good as they are means they SHOULD be the best core air unit in the game at that point. A 'fair' fight between full pop sentinels and full pop hornets/banshees should necessitate that the hornets/banshees either have 2 passive buffs of their own, or use 2 active leader powers to even the odds, because that's the 'price you pay' to make sentinels that good. Its not quite the same, but similar in principal to why Johnson's mechs have to be really good, because he sacrifices having a larger array of strong offensive LPs to get that.
I think air is a little too easy to counter with reavers. I just make like 6-8 and I'm good to go against air. Only air units that I think need to be toned down are the protector sentinels. They melt AA when you make a full army of them. I have to make a ton of reavers to stop them. Banshees seem a little underwhelming in 1v1s I think hornets are perfect as is.
You also have to spend 2 leader points that only really work on that one specific unit type to get them that good (1 for the sentinels themselves, another for the shields). If I need to spend 2 leader points on things that only apply to 1 unit type, that unit type better be good. Kill full pop Reavers good? Probably not, but definitely a cut above Hornets/Banshees.
I never said a full pop of reavers but you have to make a lot. And I'm referring to late game with the protector sentinels where leader points are more abundant. Saying that they should be stronger because you spend leader points to unlock them isn't valid because the protector sentinels are the bread and butter of Anders and every good Anders will unlock them as soon as possible because they are a bit op
sentinels are only OP when massed with almost full pop. Her r&d 2 is almost always going to win out over an anders going sentinels especially because it allows you to get cheap and quick CM marines and upgraded spartan which are very effective vs the sents till they get en mass. If you watch some of the recent tournements of high level players that went anders none of them went sentinels. Late game they are a bit OP right now especially when you combine it with her seige turrets and spartan and her other sentinel drops but fortunately this is rarely a problem right now as very few games get to that point.
Yeah that's true, I lost a two hour game against Anders because of those sentinels lol
yeah it can be quite painful when you get maps like sentry where especially in 2s it's super hard to push up two levels of high ground when you have anders seige turrets firing down and also full armies just sitting up there waiting for you to come into the chock point. What Sentinels really need is a pop increase and then a health and damage buff along with it so that a mass of them is less effective (due to having less of them in a full pop when going from 3 to 4 pop) but actually not almost useless before then. I think this suggestion has been made by many for a long time now, Maybe we will se it come in at some point in the future.
Air will always have an advantage in certain situations. Are snipers OP? In the first 5 minutes, yeah, they are. Is air OP? Yeah, in the 10-20 minute mark. It can be hard to dedicate resources and upgrades to Anti Air units, and on top of that, they can't be everywhere at once. They could be placed halfway towards the enemy base when an swarm of hornets or banshees, if undetected, can kill a base in no time, especially if used in conjunction with offensive powers like a MAC Blast, or Eradication. That's just how the game plays. It must be pointed out that once upgraded, and when you have a number of them in play, mass air becomes far less effective than they were several months ago.
I think air is a little too easy to counter with reavers. I just make like 6-8 and I'm good to go against air. Only air units that I think need to be toned down are the protector sentinels. They melt AA when you make a full army of them. I have to make a ton of reavers to stop them. Banshees seem a little underwhelming in 1v1s I think hornets are perfect as is.
You also have to spend 2 leader points that only really work on that one specific unit type to get them that good (1 for the sentinels themselves, another for the shields). If I need to spend 2 leader points on things that only apply to 1 unit type, that unit type better be good. Kill full pop Reavers good? Probably not, but definitely a cut above Hornets/Banshees.
I never said a full pop of reavers but you have to make a lot. And I'm referring to late game with the protector sentinels where leader points are more abundant. Saying that they should be stronger because you spend leader points to unlock them isn't valid because the protector sentinels are the bread and butter of Anders and every good Anders will unlock them as soon as possible because they are a bit op
sentinels are only OP when massed with almost full pop. Her r&d 2 is almost always going to win out over an anders going sentinels especially because it allows you to get cheap and quick CM marines and upgraded spartan which are very effective vs the sents till they get en mass. If you watch some of the recent tournements of high level players that went anders none of them went sentinels. Late game they are a bit OP right now especially when you combine it with her seige turrets and spartan and her other sentinel drops but fortunately this is rarely a problem right now as very few games get to that point.
Yeah that's true, I lost a two hour game against Anders because of those sentinels lol
yeah it can be quite painful when you get maps like sentry where especially in 2s it's super hard to push up two levels of high ground when you have anders seige turrets firing down and also full armies just sitting up there waiting for you to come into the chock point. What Sentinels really need is a pop increase and then a health and damage buff along with it so that a mass of them is less effective (due to having less of them in a full pop when going from 3 to 4 pop) but actually not almost useless before then. I think this suggestion has been made by many for a long time now, Maybe we will se it come in at some point in the future.
Yeah that's a good idea I like it!
AYF 001 wrote:
the range is NOT something that needs to be buffed. You have to move your AA so that it is just in range of the air and constantly run away when the air chases. Doing this around a base is even easier then in the open because of the air not flying over it. AA has enough splash damage that overkill is not a huge issue in games I have played. I even recently went against two good players in 2s who both went mass air. It was such a joke how easy it was. We were pretty much not playing and even when they did manage to drop a base they lost over 80 pop worth of air to my 40 pop of reavers while at the same time they lost all their bases to our troops.

Edit: if you buff AA range then air would literally be an absolute joke and could never be built at all whereas right now it can at least be used situationally.
Uhh, if the main strategy for Flamethrowers was "run away from Grunts", then people would say Flamethrowers were completely useless, and rightly so. Snipers at least have the range and abilities to keep infantry from getting close and doing damage, neither of which AA have. Vultures and Condors outrange AA, and someone playing as Jerome will always be able to use their special abilities before AA gets in range. If the counter units are more difficult to use than the units they're intended to counter, something is very wrong.
AYF 001 wrote:
AYF 001 wrote:
the range is NOT something that needs to be buffed. You have to move your AA so that it is just in range of the air and constantly run away when the air chases. Doing this around a base is even easier then in the open because of the air not flying over it. AA has enough splash damage that overkill is not a huge issue in games I have played. I even recently went against two good players in 2s who both went mass air. It was such a joke how easy it was. We were pretty much not playing and even when they did manage to drop a base they lost over 80 pop worth of air to my 40 pop of reavers while at the same time they lost all their bases to our troops.

Edit: if you buff AA range then air would literally be an absolute joke and could never be built at all whereas right now it can at least be used situationally.
Uhh, if the main strategy for Flamethrowers was "run away from Grunts", then people would say Flamethrowers were completely useless, and rightly so. Snipers at least have the range and abilities to keep infantry from getting close and doing damage, neither of which AA have. Vultures and Condors outrange AA, and someone playing as Jerome will always be able to use their special abilities before AA gets in range. If the counter units are more difficult to use than the units they're intended to counter, something is very wrong.
AA can shoot while running away. I'm saying when you are trying to fight full pop air with 8 wolves you have to actually micro instead of expecting an instant win. It is true you shouldn't just chase condors but if you get infront of them they are easy kills. You are literally complaining that you have to move your units in a way which isn't just clicking x on a unit. The constantly running away thing means you can lose almost no AA when killing a full pop of air.
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