Forums / Games / Halo Wars 2

February Patch notes discussion

OP Postums

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 11
Please use this thread to discuss the patch notes posted here.

These are planned to go live on 2/8/18.
everyone is asleep.... Stoked though, these changes look great
@postums are the brute genadiers considered a rush unit?
Looks solid! Thanks for pulling extra hours to get this put together for us as well. Hope the new players will enjoy it and stick around too!
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
Air is getting a nerf to building damage not a buff
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
Air is getting a nerf to building damage not a buff
UNSCHornets.
Hornets have been improved to reflect the splash damage buff AA has received. Changes made to improve Air vs. Vehicles will result in more players building more AA, so a slight adjustment to them was needed.
  • Hornet health increased by 8%
  • Hornet base DPS increased by 5%
  • Hornet cost reduction from 325 to 300.
  • Hornet speed increased to match Wolverines.
BansheeThese units are the glass cannons of the air units, with changes to how air interacts with vehicles, these units are being made more accessible and receiving a slight health buff to help them deal better vs. the increased effectiveness of added anti-air units.
  • Health increased by 7%
  • Cost reduction from 300 to 275.
Also, after I looked over these units again, I can say the air vs structure problem is even worse now, as both air units are also getting a health buff.
On the flipside, banshees didn't get the dps buff, so there's that. The problem still remains though.

I looked over the list again, and saw nothing about a nerf to air vs structures. Can you show me exactly where it says that?
I don't think the shipmaster buff is gonna be enough, hopefully i'm wrong.

Also, is it true that Goliaths don't have the "rush infantry" armour type?
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
Sorry to double post, but did you just say that the primary role of AA, isn't to kill air?
FLOYMICUS wrote:
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
Sorry to double post, but did you just say that the primary role of AA, isn't to kill air?
The role of AA is to be a temporary solution to air. AA should be used if you're going vehicles, and spot that the enemy is going air, and you need time to switch to infantry to hard counter. The reason AA should not be the hard counter is because you're making one branch of the triangle too strong. (Vehicles beat infantry and air). This is the real reason behind the air/AA conflict, since most people don't realize the bigger picture that it's not air/AA that's wrong, it's the whole triangle.

We need a nerf to building damage from air, since that's not their role, and a buff to infantry vs air, to provide a hard counter for air.
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
Air is getting a nerf to building damage not a buff
UNSCHornets.
Hornets have been improved to reflect the splash damage buff AA has received. Changes made to improve Air vs. Vehicles will result in more players building more AA, so a slight adjustment to them was needed.
  • Hornet health increased by 8%
  • Hornet base DPS increased by 5%
  • Hornet cost reduction from 325 to 300.
  • Hornet speed increased to match Wolverines.
BansheeThese units are the glass cannons of the air units, with changes to how air interacts with vehicles, these units are being made more accessible and receiving a slight health buff to help them deal better vs. the increased effectiveness of added anti-air units.
  • Health increased by 7%
  • Cost reduction from 300 to 275.
Also, after I looked over these units again, I can say the air vs structure problem is even worse now, as both air units are also getting a health buff.
On the flipside, banshees didn't get the dps buff, so there's that. The problem still remains though.

I looked over the list again, and saw nothing about a nerf to air vs structures. Can you show me exactly where it says that?
Sorry I accidentally read the building damage nerfs for core vehicles for core air. My bad :/

Either way, air will only be an issue in low level play. AAs AOE still makes mincemeat of air, these air buffs just make them a semi viable option in high level play.
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
Air is getting a nerf to building damage not a buff
UNSCHornets.
Hornets have been improved to reflect the splash damage buff AA has received. Changes made to improve Air vs. Vehicles will result in more players building more AA, so a slight adjustment to them was needed.
  • Hornet health increased by 8%
  • Hornet base DPS increased by 5%
  • Hornet cost reduction from 325 to 300.
  • Hornet speed increased to match Wolverines.
BansheeThese units are the glass cannons of the air units, with changes to how air interacts with vehicles, these units are being made more accessible and receiving a slight health buff to help them deal better vs. the increased effectiveness of added anti-air units.
  • Health increased by 7%
  • Cost reduction from 300 to 275.
Also, after I looked over these units again, I can say the air vs structure problem is even worse now, as both air units are also getting a health buff.
On the flipside, banshees didn't get the dps buff, so there's that. The problem still remains though.

I looked over the list again, and saw nothing about a nerf to air vs structures. Can you show me exactly where it says that?
Sorry I accidentally read the building damage nerfs for core vehicles for core air. My bad :/

Either way, air will only be an issue in low level play. AAs AOE still makes mincemeat of air, these air buffs just make them a semi viable option in high level play.
If air isn't effective, the game will be imbalanced for the worse. The game is supposed to work in a rock-paper-scissors style, where infantry beats air, air beats vehicles, and vehicles beat infantry. Anti air should only be built if you are going vehicles, and scout that that the enemy is going air. Anti air,(the soft counter) should only be used to buy time to transition to infantry, (the hard counter). If air is made beatable by anti-air,(which it currently is) vehicles will beat the other two branches, making them op.

Air vs Building damage should be reduced by 30-40%, because that's not their role. Air should be able to beat AA,(when air is In mass numbers) and infantry should just beat air in general.
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
Air is getting a nerf to building damage not a buff
UNSCHornets.
Hornets have been improved to reflect the splash damage buff AA has received. Changes made to improve Air vs. Vehicles will result in more players building more AA, so a slight adjustment to them was needed.
  • Hornet health increased by 8%
  • Hornet base DPS increased by 5%
  • Hornet cost reduction from 325 to 300.
  • Hornet speed increased to match Wolverines.
BansheeThese units are the glass cannons of the air units, with changes to how air interacts with vehicles, these units are being made more accessible and receiving a slight health buff to help them deal better vs. the increased effectiveness of added anti-air units.
  • Health increased by 7%
  • Cost reduction from 300 to 275.
Also, after I looked over these units again, I can say the air vs structure problem is even worse now, as both air units are also getting a health buff.
On the flipside, banshees didn't get the dps buff, so there's that. The problem still remains though.

I looked over the list again, and saw nothing about a nerf to air vs structures. Can you show me exactly where it says that?
Sorry I accidentally read the building damage nerfs for core vehicles for core air. My bad :/

Either way, air will only be an issue in low level play. AAs AOE still makes mincemeat of air, these air buffs just make them a semi viable option in high level play.
If air isn't effective, the game will be imbalanced for the worse. The game is supposed to work in a rock-paper-scissors style, where infantry beats air, air beats vehicles, and vehicles beat infantry. Anti air should only be built if you are going vehicles, and scout that that the enemy is going air. Anti air,(the soft counter) should only be used to buy time to transition to infantry, (the hard counter). If air is made beatable by anti-air,(which it currently is) vehicles will beat the other two branches, making them op.
The problem with this thinking is because infantry are not the hard counters, they're the soft counters to air.

Trying to switch up the triangle to be what you want it to be would require a dramatic balance shift that just isn't possible at this stage in the game's development
Perfect changes to me , love it. There are some arguable things like Base dmg increade of core air or is the Johnson buff enough? But o think you did a great job with these changes. Especially that retriever gets a nerf but a buff for good micro player.
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
Air is getting a nerf to building damage not a buff
UNSCHornets.
Hornets have been improved to reflect the splash damage buff AA has received. Changes made to improve Air vs. Vehicles will result in more players building more AA, so a slight adjustment to them was needed.
  • Hornet health increased by 8%
  • Hornet base DPS increased by 5%
  • Hornet cost reduction from 325 to 300.
  • Hornet speed increased to match Wolverines.
BansheeThese units are the glass cannons of the air units, with changes to how air interacts with vehicles, these units are being made more accessible and receiving a slight health buff to help them deal better vs. the increased effectiveness of added anti-air units.
  • Health increased by 7%
  • Cost reduction from 300 to 275.
Also, after I looked over these units again, I can say the air vs structure problem is even worse now, as both air units are also getting a health buff.
On the flipside, banshees didn't get the dps buff, so there's that. The problem still remains though.

I looked over the list again, and saw nothing about a nerf to air vs structures. Can you show me exactly where it says that?
Sorry I accidentally read the building damage nerfs for core vehicles for core air. My bad :/

Either way, air will only be an issue in low level play. AAs AOE still makes mincemeat of air, these air buffs just make them a semi viable option in high level play.
If air isn't effective, the game will be imbalanced for the worse. The game is supposed to work in a rock-paper-scissors style, where infantry beats air, air beats vehicles, and vehicles beat infantry. Anti air should only be built if you are going vehicles, and scout that that the enemy is going air. Anti air,(the soft counter) should only be used to buy time to transition to infantry, (the hard counter). If air is made beatable by anti-air,(which it currently is) vehicles will beat the other two branches, making them op.
The problem with this thinking is because infantry are not the hard counters, they're the soft counters to air.

Trying to switch up the triangle to be what you want it to be would require a dramatic balance shift that just isn't possible at this stage in the game's development
I've heard a mix that this patch is the last patch, and others saying there's going to be a March patch. If the ladder is true, there's still time to make this change. To be safe, the changes don't have to be drastic, but even moderate changes would go a long way.

For example: Air damage vs buildings reduced 15-20%, Infantry damage vs air increased 10-15%, Vehicle damage vs infantry increased 10-15%
If however, this is truly the last patch, then sadly I would have to agree nothing can be done to salvage this problem.

Is there any clear confirmation this is the last patch?
FLOYMICUS wrote:
I don't think the shipmaster buff is gonna be enough, hopefully i'm wrong.

Also, is it true that Goliaths don't have the "rush infantry" armour type?
It looks like he is
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
You've actually got your counters backwards. Wolverines, snipers, and cyclops are the hard counters, while the infantry, vehicle, air triangle is the soft counter. Hence why those units are good at one thing and one thing only. They're specially suited to hard counter those targets. The unit triangle, on the other hand, gives an innate bonus to those core units against an opposing leg of the triangle, but still full their main role as a core unit.

So yes, going infantry vs air should shred an air army, I agree. However, the true counter to that is building wolverines to help supplement your army composition. Same thing with adding cyclops/hunters against vs vehicles and snipers/rangers/suis against infantry balls. Counter units are the hard counter, but the soft counter unit triangle should still perform its job.
FLOYMICUS wrote:
I don't think the shipmaster buff is gonna be enough, hopefully i'm wrong.

Also, is it true that Goliaths don't have the "rush infantry" armour type?
Definitely won't be. Mobility made him top tier only because Locuts were OP. He needs passive buffs.
I still have some concerns about this list. Two things in particular. Air vs Structures and the air/vehicle/infantry triangle.

To start, air's main problem was that they were good against buildings, and now that they're requiring less supplies and do more base dps, they're going to be even MORE effective at cheesing bases. Air should not be the used to do major building dps. Air vs buildings dps should be reduced 30-40%. It's that bad.

Also, the triangle that infantry beats air isn't as effective as it should be. Infantry should tear apart air. AA should only be a temporary solution,(soft counter) until you mass produce infantry, the hard counter. Same with tanks vs infantry. Cyclops,(soft counter) should only be a temporary solution to buy you time to make air, the hard counter.

My fear is that by keeping air so strong against buildings, not being threatened by infantry, thus not having a hard counter, air will continue to run rampant. Even if AA is made to beat air, (Which it shouldn't beat a large army of air, because that's not it's role) then this will still be bad, as the roles of the units are messed up, creating an imbalance in the units, and shifting the meta to where vehicles are meta, (due to not being as easy to counter as infantry or air.) In addition, air will be bad at it's role, (Air vs vehicles) and broken at something it shouldn't be able to do (air vs structures). This needs to be addressed.
You've actually got your counters backwards. Wolverines, snipers, and cyclops are the hard counters, while the infantry, vehicle, air triangle is the soft counter. Hence why those units are good at one thing and one thing only. They're specially suited to hard counter those targets. The unit triangle, on the other hand, gives an innate bonus to those core units against an opposing leg of the triangle, but still full their main role as a core unit.

So yes, going infantry vs air should shred an air army, I agree. However, the true counter to that is building wolverines to help supplement your army composition. Same thing with adding cyclops/hunters against vs vehicles and snipers/rangers/suis against infantry balls. Counter units are the hard counter, but the soft counter unit triangle should still perform its job.
And while we're on that note, I find it highly unfair that the hard counter to infantry is another infantry. If we're following the example of wolverines/reavers and cyclops/hunters, then the hard counter to infantry(currently only sniper/ranger) should have an air unit version.
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 11