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[Locked] February Patch notes discussion

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nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
I second that. Core Air should be effective at 1 thing and 1 be supportive at everything else, including killing bases (Air should only be effective at killing vehicles). As I said in a well laid out previous comment on this thread, just increase core infantry’s damage modifier against air and this will completely fix this situation. This means that although Air might be strong enough to sneak up on a base, as long as you’ve got some pop available to squeeze out a chain of marines/grunts, you can hold off an attack, and then hopefully, you can bring your main forces back in time to defend (assuming you made wolverines, else wise you’re kinda screwed... Air is still too fast at killing bases...). The game gave the role of building killer to specific units (locust, flamer, vulture, etc) and those units will never receive any love if banshees remain as high dps vs structures as they are. However bad the modifier may have made air against structures, They will still be able to kill bases provided the controller knows how to micro properly, hit and run properly, and use freedom of movement across terrain properly. Being fast, but low damage are what they should be designed to do to bases.
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Air will be fine, AA will be fine. Air has always been countered when microing aa. The biggest thing is having that AA. Knowing there gonna go air and keep pressure up to keep the air down before it gets big. If someone is going air, its not good until they have it atleast somewhat massed. Meaning in team games you can 2v1 and keep pressure on their side while cutting down whatever air comes your way early on. Someone going air is only an issue if its unchecked
Kinsano Hornets will have a speed of 33. That is indefensible.
Oh really. Indefensible. Then start going air for me :) because apparently the speed of the kinsano hornet makes it unstoppable, and instantly massed.
I might do that next patch. Putting that aside, I have no idea what you're arguing. That 33 is a reasonable speed? If so, I don't know if we'll ever find common ground.
Yea aire being fast like that is reasonable. Its a hornet not a fly.
That’s rediculous... you can’t expect a single unit to be that fast, damaging, tough, AND receive buffs for each of those on top of having free terrain movement and NOT be overpowered in a game all about who can kill the other person’s base first.
Thats simply not the case though. AA does its job fine, and when you use it how it should be used air gets slaughtered or atleast cant attack. Air gets shreeded by many different units and its not that hard to fight. So yea, like many units if its massed and untouched it becomes very strong. Doesnt make it unstoppable. INstead of complaining about the issue, dont let it become an issue in the first place(cut it down) or be prepared to invest into defending against it(aa turrets and aa units.)
You’re simply not getting it. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Air will be fine, AA will be fine. Air has always been countered when microing aa. The biggest thing is having that AA. Knowing there gonna go air and keep pressure up to keep the air down before it gets big. If someone is going air, its not good until they have it atleast somewhat massed. Meaning in team games you can 2v1 and keep pressure on their side while cutting down whatever air comes your way early on. Someone going air is only an issue if its unchecked
Kinsano Hornets will have a speed of 33. That is indefensible.
Oh really. Indefensible. Then start going air for me :) because apparently the speed of the kinsano hornet makes it unstoppable, and instantly massed.
I might do that next patch. Putting that aside, I have no idea what you're arguing. That 33 is a reasonable speed? If so, I don't know if we'll ever find common ground.
Yea aire being fast like that is reasonable. Its a hornet not a fly.
That’s rediculous... you can’t expect a single unit to be that fast, damaging, tough, AND receive buffs for each of those on top of having free terrain movement and NOT be overpowered in a game all about who can kill the other person’s base first.
Thats simply not the case though. AA does its job fine, and when you use it how it should be used air gets slaughtered or atleast cant attack. Air gets shreeded by many different units and its not that hard to fight. So yea, like many units if its massed and untouched it becomes very strong. Doesnt make it unstoppable. INstead of complaining about the issue, dont let it become an issue in the first place(cut it down) or be prepared to invest into defending against it(aa turrets and aa units.)
You’re simply not getting it. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
So much of this was wrong. And thats not what one who trying to successfully beats air should be doing.
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
The problem with this logic is you don't need full pop AA to kill full pop air.

If you have turrets and shields protecting a base plus a few AA units you can hold off an air attack and counter push with a ground army
IxJeddeyxI wrote:
Why are tanks getting a damage reduction vs other tanks by 13%?
Also tanks damage to scouts is being increased by 30%. why is that? scouts have no health and they aren't going to be on the field when tanks are out. if anything tanks should get a 30% damage buff vs AA.
Too many scorpions dropping to the 12min chopper rush
IxJeddeyxI wrote:
Why are tanks getting a damage reduction vs other tanks by 13%?
Also tanks damage to scouts is being increased by 30%. why is that? scouts have no health and they aren't going to be on the field when tanks are out. if anything tanks should get a 30% damage buff vs AA.
Too many scorpions dropping to the 12min chopper rush
No, it's because tanks should pretty much 1 shot a Tier 1 scout vehicle. Scouts are being given zero chance against tanks - that is what this buff is for.
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
Ruzylo wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Air will be fine, AA will be fine. Air has always been countered when microing aa. The biggest thing is having that AA. Knowing there gonna go air and keep pressure up to keep the air down before it gets big. If someone is going air, its not good until they have it atleast somewhat massed. Meaning in team games you can 2v1 and keep pressure on their side while cutting down whatever air comes your way early on. Someone going air is only an issue if its unchecked
Kinsano Hornets will have a speed of 33. That is indefensible.
Oh really. Indefensible. Then start going air for me :) because apparently the speed of the kinsano hornet makes it unstoppable, and instantly massed.
I might do that next patch. Putting that aside, I have no idea what you're arguing. That 33 is a reasonable speed? If so, I don't know if we'll ever find common ground.
Yea aire being fast like that is reasonable. Its a hornet not a fly.
That’s rediculous... you can’t expect a single unit to be that fast, damaging, tough, AND receive buffs for each of those on top of having free terrain movement and NOT be overpowered in a game all about who can kill the other person’s base first.
Thats simply not the case though. AA does its job fine, and when you use it how it should be used air gets slaughtered or atleast cant attack. Air gets shreeded by many different units and its not that hard to fight. So yea, like many units if its massed and untouched it becomes very strong. Doesnt make it unstoppable. INstead of complaining about the issue, dont let it become an issue in the first place(cut it down) or be prepared to invest into defending against it(aa turrets and aa units.)
You’re simply not getting it. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
So much of this was wrong. And thats not what one who trying to successfully beats air should be doing.
Really?! Okay, what *exactly* was wrong. Explain it thoroughly to me. You should have no problem doing so depending on how much knowledge you actually garnish from the situation.
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
The problem with this logic is you don't need full pop AA to kill full pop air.

If you have turrets and shields protecting a base plus a few AA units you can hold off an air attack and counter push with a ground army
So where in your explanation for defense do you see your ground army leaving your base undefended to try and destroy my base? Because as soon as you did that, it doesn’t matter how many shields you have on your base... I’m gonna swoop in, attack, and then leave as soon as your units arrive. That means you will constantly be defending and constantly be losing. AA base turrets do NOT do enough damage to fend against full pop core air. And UNSC doesn’t have shield generators anyway. So how do you leave your base for long enough to push against one of mine without being attacked? You don’t. Now about the “you don’t have to have full pop AA to kill full pop air”, your right, but you need at least 3/4’s pop AA to kill air, which means you only have the potential to hold around 1/4’s pop of offensive units, many of which would be quickly scouted and defeated by spare banshees before they ever got close enough to throw rocks at a base on my side. This problem will be compounded even more after the AA splash damage debuff and Core Air damage buff next patch, and don’t worry... you won’t have a chance in hell of catching hit and runs after the speed boost some of the flying units are getting (not to mention their health buff). And you’re still forgetting inferno, eradication, LV3 glassing beam, Emp MAC blast, grunt methane party, close air support, hunter’s brand, carpet bomb, etc etc etc. wolves are already slow and low dps. What do ya do when you lose 1/2 pop to a single leader power drop and then get bum rushed at a base halfway across the map by 40 banshees?

Lol, it doesn’t matter, split your army and now you’ve got half the potential to defend, and you better not have more than one base. Good luck getting across the map to defend your other one with only 1/2 of your units. Anyway, I’m done. I tried. Now we’ll let the evidence talk. Hopefully this problem will fix itself if enough people get out there and abuse the sh*t out of it. I know what I’ll be doing next meta (if I even play).
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
The problem with this logic is you don't need full pop AA to kill full pop air.

If you have turrets and shields protecting a base plus a few AA units you can hold off an air attack and counter push with a ground army
So where in your explanation for defense do you see your ground army leaving your base undefended to try and destroy my base? Because as soon as you did that, it doesn’t matter how many shields you have on your base... I’m gonna swoop in, attack, and then leave as soon as your units arrive. That means you will constantly be defending and constantly be losing. AA base turrets do NOT do enough damage to fend against full pop core air. And UNSC doesn’t have shield generators anyway. So how do you leave your base for long enough to push against one of mine without being attacked? You don’t. Now about the “you don’t have to have full pop AA to kill full pop air”, your right, but you need at least 3/4’s pop AA to kill air, which means you only have the potential to hold around 1/4’s pop of offensive units, many of which would be quickly scouted and defeated by spare banshees before they ever got close enough to throw rocks at a base on my side. This problem will be compounded even more after the AA splash damage debuff and Core Air damage buff next patch, don’t worry. And you’re still forgetting inferno, eradication, LV3 glassing beam, Emp MAC blast, grunt methane party, close air support, hunter’s brand, carpet bomb, etc etc etc. wolves are already slow and low dps. What do ya do when you lose 1/2 pop to a single leader power drop and then get bum rushed at a base halfway across the map by 40 banshees?
-stop making so much AA
-split your army
-upgrade Fortify

Congratulations, you just beat air.
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
The problem with this logic is you don't need full pop AA to kill full pop air.

If you have turrets and shields protecting a base plus a few AA units you can hold off an air attack and counter push with a ground army
So where in your explanation for defense do you see your ground army leaving your base undefended to try and destroy my base? Because as soon as you did that, it doesn’t matter how many shields you have on your base... I’m gonna swoop in, attack, and then leave as soon as your units arrive. That means you will constantly be defending and constantly be losing. AA base turrets do NOT do enough damage to fend against full pop core air. And UNSC doesn’t have shield generators anyway. So how do you leave your base for long enough to push against one of mine without being attacked? You don’t. Now about the “you don’t have to have full pop AA to kill full pop air”, your right, but you need at least 3/4’s pop AA to kill air, which means you only have the potential to hold around 1/4’s pop of offensive units, many of which would be quickly scouted and defeated by spare banshees before they ever got close enough to throw rocks at a base on my side. This problem will be compounded even more after the AA splash damage debuff and Core Air damage buff next patch, don’t worry. And you’re still forgetting inferno, eradication, LV3 glassing beam, Emp MAC blast, grunt methane party, close air support, hunter’s brand, carpet bomb, etc etc etc. wolves are already slow and low dps. What do ya do when you lose 1/2 pop to a single leader power drop and then get bum rushed at a base halfway across the map by 40 banshees?
-stop making so much AA
-split your army
-upgrade Fortify

Congratulations, you just beat air.
A fortification 3 base gets destroyed in 24 second when focus fired with mass air (banshee ) (T3 upgrade)
When you split your army while stop making anti air, I say congratulation. You now lost one base and half of your army.
The point here is that you can' t stop air sniping bases if you don' have at least 5-6 wolves and anti air turrets at every base of yours. Even then Decis Banshee will still wreck them.
If you got 2-3 bases , not calculated minibases which are now impossible to take you need at least 60 supply in anti air.
If you move out with the rest of your army guess what ? It get picked of by air, so you need to add anti air there too. Now you have all least 90 supply anti air and you are safe to move out with 30 supply on actual units... do I have to continue ? You get wrecked by base defence cause u don' have enough base cracking potential.
At least that's my experience in every ultra late game when the enemy goes sucessfully mass air .
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
The problem with this logic is you don't need full pop AA to kill full pop air.

If you have turrets and shields protecting a base plus a few AA units you can hold off an air attack and counter push with a ground army
So where in your explanation for defense do you see your ground army leaving your base undefended to try and destroy my base? Because as soon as you did that, it doesn’t matter how many shields you have on your base... I’m gonna swoop in, attack, and then leave as soon as your units arrive. That means you will constantly be defending and constantly be losing. AA base turrets do NOT do enough damage to fend against full pop core air. And UNSC doesn’t have shield generators anyway. So how do you leave your base for long enough to push against one of mine without being attacked? You don’t. Now about the “you don’t have to have full pop AA to kill full pop air”, your right, but you need at least 3/4’s pop AA to kill air, which means you only have the potential to hold around 1/4’s pop of offensive units, many of which would be quickly scouted and defeated by spare banshees before they ever got close enough to throw rocks at a base on my side. This problem will be compounded even more after the AA splash damage debuff and Core Air damage buff next patch, don’t worry. And you’re still forgetting inferno, eradication, LV3 glassing beam, Emp MAC blast, grunt methane party, close air support, hunter’s brand, carpet bomb, etc etc etc. wolves are already slow and low dps. What do ya do when you lose 1/2 pop to a single leader power drop and then get bum rushed at a base halfway across the map by 40 banshees?
-stop making so much AA
-split your army
-upgrade Fortify

Congratulations, you just beat air.
A fortification 3 base gets destroyed in 24 second when focus fired with mass air (banshee ) (T3 upgrade)
When you split your army while stop making anti air, I say congratulation. You now lost one base and half of your army.
The point here is that you can' t stop air sniping bases if you don' have at least 5-6 wolves and anti air turrets at every base of yours. Even then Decis Banshee will still wreck them.
If you got 2-3 bases , not calculated minibases which are now impossible to take you need at least 60 supply in anti air.
If you move out with the rest of your army guess what ? It get picked of by air, so you need to add anti air there too. Now you have all least 90 supply anti air and you are safe to move out with 30 supply on actual units... do I have to continue ? You get wrecked by base defence cause u don' have enough base cracking potential.
Please play me and go air. Please.
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
The problem with this logic is you don't need full pop AA to kill full pop air.

If you have turrets and shields protecting a base plus a few AA units you can hold off an air attack and counter push with a ground army
So where in your explanation for defense do you see your ground army leaving your base undefended to try and destroy my base? Because as soon as you did that, it doesn’t matter how many shields you have on your base... I’m gonna swoop in, attack, and then leave as soon as your units arrive. That means you will constantly be defending and constantly be losing. AA base turrets do NOT do enough damage to fend against full pop core air. And UNSC doesn’t have shield generators anyway. So how do you leave your base for long enough to push against one of mine without being attacked? You don’t. Now about the “you don’t have to have full pop AA to kill full pop air”, your right, but you need at least 3/4’s pop AA to kill air, which means you only have the potential to hold around 1/4’s pop of offensive units, many of which would be quickly scouted and defeated by spare banshees before they ever got close enough to throw rocks at a base on my side. This problem will be compounded even more after the AA splash damage debuff and Core Air damage buff next patch, don’t worry. And you’re still forgetting inferno, eradication, LV3 glassing beam, Emp MAC blast, grunt methane party, close air support, hunter’s brand, carpet bomb, etc etc etc. wolves are already slow and low dps. What do ya do when you lose 1/2 pop to a single leader power drop and then get bum rushed at a base halfway across the map by 40 banshees?
-stop making so much AA
-split your army
-upgrade Fortify

Congratulations, you just beat air.
A fortification 3 base gets destroyed in 24 second when focus fired with mass air (banshee ) (T3 upgrade)
When you split your army while stop making anti air, I say congratulation. You now lost one base and half of your army.
The point here is that you can' t stop air sniping bases if you don' have at least 5-6 wolves and anti air turrets at every base of yours. Even then Decis Banshee will still wreck them.
If you got 2-3 bases , not calculated minibases which are now impossible to take you need at least 60 supply in anti air.
If you move out with the rest of your army guess what ? It get picked of by air, so you need to add anti air there too. Now you have all least 90 supply anti air and you are safe to move out with 30 supply on actual units... do I have to continue ? You get wrecked by base defence cause u don' have enough base cracking potential.
Please play me and go air. Please.
That won' t make a difference. You are a champion player and have better micro and macro. My highest archievement is diamond. Like I said I m talking about games which are played at my level , below and maybe slightly over it.
But when you balance a game you have to balance it for all players.
I can also claim that I would beat you in SC2 where I m Master 1, just with MMM or lings. But that wouldn't prove that they are overpowered because of the difference in experience.

The fact is that many player which aren't master and above have many time s problem with air. Its not that you can claim that just when pro player havent any problems, that there is nothing wrong with it.
Strategy games should be balanced through all leagues, so that casual player and pros can use a unit and counter it.
I dont want a new Air base snipe meta, heck it may wouldn' be as bad as some of the old metas we had, but I think the air base dmg buff wouldn't make a good balancd game, where the meta can settle in all leagues
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
The problem with this logic is you don't need full pop AA to kill full pop air.

If you have turrets and shields protecting a base plus a few AA units you can hold off an air attack and counter push with a ground army
So where in your explanation for defense do you see your ground army leaving your base undefended to try and destroy my base? Because as soon as you did that, it doesn’t matter how many shields you have on your base... I’m gonna swoop in, attack, and then leave as soon as your units arrive. That means you will constantly be defending and constantly be losing. AA base turrets do NOT do enough damage to fend against full pop core air. And UNSC doesn’t have shield generators anyway. So how do you leave your base for long enough to push against one of mine without being attacked? You don’t. Now about the “you don’t have to have full pop AA to kill full pop air”, your right, but you need at least 3/4’s pop AA to kill air, which means you only have the potential to hold around 1/4’s pop of offensive units, many of which would be quickly scouted and defeated by spare banshees before they ever got close enough to throw rocks at a base on my side. This problem will be compounded even more after the AA splash damage debuff and Core Air damage buff next patch, don’t worry. And you’re still forgetting inferno, eradication, LV3 glassing beam, Emp MAC blast, grunt methane party, close air support, hunter’s brand, carpet bomb, etc etc etc. wolves are already slow and low dps. What do ya do when you lose 1/2 pop to a single leader power drop and then get bum rushed at a base halfway across the map by 40 banshees?
-stop making so much AA
-split your army
-upgrade Fortify

Congratulations, you just beat air.
But when you balance a game you have to balance it for all players.

Strategy games should be balanced through all leagues, so that casual player and pros can use a unit and counter it.
I don't think that's possible.

What a low ranked player and high ranked player think is balanced are very different.
Postums wrote:
Shield da
nuchey wrote:
Postums wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
The biggest problem with the patch by far is that Kinsano Hornets are going to be way out of line. Those things were already so fast, and now they're getting +2 speed. Not gonna be a fun meta.
Haven't you heard though... if you can't combat air, regardless of the myriad of buffs (active/passive) applied to them... you're just not playing the game right ;). #stirthepot

Kinsano is already a decent leader early, now she may become a powerhouse mid and late game too. Have to wait and see!
As of now, February 5th, 2018, air is inexplicably bad. That is still an empirical fact.

Once this patch hits, Kinsano air is going to be far too fast. It will be an over-buff. I would consider reverting the Hornet speed change.
Not only will Kinsano air be very fast, but Decimus air will be even harder to kill... banshees getting health buff and fury not draining life nearly as fast... he will keep those banshees alive a lot longer... I am concerned with these changes, Deci, Anders, Kinsano will rain death on all armies from above... sure they will take a little longer to kill base buildings, but they will be able to harass and kill armies like nobody's business. I am concerned but will obviously reserve developing my opinion til later.
Where are you see that they will take longer to kill base buildings? As far as I know, they are actually receiving a basic damage increase (general damage) and will thus be even MORE effective at structure sniping...
Hmm... I thought somewhere I heard they were making them more effective at killing units, but less effective at sniping bases... I was wrong. So air is getting an overall buff it appears (making it cheaper and slight bump to health). Hornets get a damage increase. So yes, Kinsano, Decimus, and likely Anders will dominate vehicle armies and still be able to snipe units. Did I dream up the damage to building modifier decrease?
No, it was originally going to be the case, but the time to kill was too low on buildings. So the reduction was removed.
Decimus banshees can currently drop the shields of a T3 fortification base with 4 shield gens in 11 seconds, just sayin' the building damage Air does is a bit too strong
Shield damage is not the same as building damage.
Maybe I can help out some. Let me explain it like this: AA beats Air, you’re right about that. However, Let’s say I build full cap air, and you build full cap AA. Now, I’m effectively sitting on an army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines while YOU are forced to make nothing but wolverines for the whole game in order to defend against any potential and random attack by my army of mobile, speedy, flying, structure-sniping death machines. And ONE lapse of judgment on your part, and I can drop your undefended base in 13 seconds. You know what happens if I give your AA 13 seconds to attack my undefended base? You might drop 1/8 Of it’s hit points, while I move on to the rest of your side bases. In other words, your playing defense in losing battle against time. You HAVE to build something other than AA if you have any hope of destroying one of MY bases, see? So by going Air, not only do I get all of the benefits of freedom from terrain inhibition, but I also have the guaranteed assurance of knowing my opponent has to build weak, terrain inhibited, slow AA to defeat my Air, and all I have to do is constantly move around him and avoid combat completely. And if I manage to catch your wolves all grouped together, I can send one banshe or hornet to give me vision for a leader power drop and Inferno, eradication, glassing beam, emp Mac blast, etc etc etc all of your wolves until your sitting on about half of your worthless counter Unit army (worthless not because they don’t beat Air, but because it takes them about 20x as long to kill a base.
The problem with this logic is you don't need full pop AA to kill full pop air.

If you have turrets and shields protecting a base plus a few AA units you can hold off an air attack and counter push with a ground army
So where in your explanation for defense do you see your ground army leaving your base undefended to try and destroy my base? Because as soon as you did that, it doesn’t matter how many shields you have on your base... I’m gonna swoop in, attack, and then leave as soon as your units arrive. That means you will constantly be defending and constantly be losing. AA base turrets do NOT do enough damage to fend against full pop core air. And UNSC doesn’t have shield generators anyway. So how do you leave your base for long enough to push against one of mine without being attacked? You don’t. Now about the “you don’t have to have full pop AA to kill full pop air”, your right, but you need at least 3/4’s pop AA to kill air, which means you only have the potential to hold around 1/4’s pop of offensive units, many of which would be quickly scouted and defeated by spare banshees before they ever got close enough to throw rocks at a base on my side. This problem will be compounded even more after the AA splash damage debuff and Core Air damage buff next patch, don’t worry. And you’re still forgetting inferno, eradication, LV3 glassing beam, Emp MAC blast, grunt methane party, close air support, hunter’s brand, carpet bomb, etc etc etc. wolves are already slow and low dps. What do ya do when you lose 1/2 pop to a single leader power drop and then get bum rushed at a base halfway across the map by 40 banshees?
-stop making so much AA
-split your army
-upgrade Fortify

Congratulations, you just beat air.
That won' t make a difference. You are a champion player and have better micro and macro. My highest archievement is diamond. Like I said I m talking about games which are played at my level , below and maybe slightly over it.
But when you balance a game you have to balance it for all players.
I can also claim that I would beat you in SC2 where I m Master 1, just with MMM or lings. But that wouldn't prove that they are overpowered because of the difference in experience.

The fact is that many player which aren't master and above have many time s problem with air. Its not that you can claim that just when pro player havent any problems, tgat there is nothing wrong with it.
If you're claiming I'm better why are you telling me I'm wrong, lol.

If competent players aren't having issues with air, then it's not too strong or OP. Games are balanced around the top players. As the playerbase improves and becomes better, they learn the game, their skills improve, and they'll understand how to properly counter. This is true for just about any game. We can't balance the game for every league of skill, because that's simply not possible. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people claim Scarabs are OP, when they're actually one of the worst units in the game. Should we need those, as well because low league players struggle against them?

Funny enough, just about every decent player in this community agrees that air is in an AWFUL place (save air affected by passives).

Good players aren't making air units, unless they are MASSIVELY ahead and can afford the risk.

Anyways, it's not worth my time to go back and forth like this when you're not understanding what's going on.
All I can say now is the next meta will be interesting
That is what they call a toxic community , where the player with a higher skillevel will claim , that they are the only one who have the right to speak and every other and lower ranked is not worth their time. If you write in a forum you have to be prepared to meet people with other opinions.

And yes you are wrong. A online game shouldn' t be only centered around pros but also casuals. If new player have problems getting into the game, you will soon have a dead game, cause many pros will leave with the time , while there are no new players. I mean look the matchmaking, even in my league where are many players, I know most of them. Halo wars 2 community shrunk drastically because of bugs and wrong balance decisions.

Like I said earlier if a player with perfect macro and micro doesn' t have problems with air , but below a certain skill level nearly 1/4 of the community it is a problem.
That's what other developer understand and that's the reason why balance changes are made carefully in small steps on a test server, to see how the change behave through the leagues.
I hope that this was worth your time reading mate .
All I can say now is the next meta will be interesting
I hope so, I dont think it will be as bad as some past metas, but I don' think that we will hava a stable balanced and settled meta, where all units are viable and doing the job, for what they are made for.
That is what they call a toxic community , where the player with a higher skillevel will claim , that they are the only one who have the right to speak and every other and lower ranked is not worth their time. If you write in a forum you have to be prepared to meet people with other opinions.

And yes you are wrong. A online game shouldn' t be only centered around pros but also casuals. Like I said earlier if a player with perfect macro and micro doesn' t have problems with air , but below a certain skill level nearly 1/4 of the community it is a problem.
That's what other developer understand and that's the reason why balance changes are made carefully in small steps on a test server, to see how the change behave through the leagues.
I hope that this was worth your time reading mate .
You are right also casuals make up the majority of community’s so pros that think we don’t matter should go and get a job or accept the truth that everyone matters
That is what they call a toxic community , where the player with a higher skillevel will claim , that they are the only one who have the right to speak and every other and lower ranked is not worth their time. If you write in a forum you have to be prepared to meet people with other opinions.

And yes you are wrong. A online game shouldn' t be only centered around pros but also casuals. Like I said earlier if a player with perfect macro and micro doesn' t have problems with air , but below a certain skill level nearly 1/4 of the community it is a problem.
That's what other developer understand and that's the reason why balance changes are made carefully in small steps on a test server, to see how the change behave through the leagues.
I hope that this was worth your time reading mate .
You are right also casuals make up the majority of community’s so pros that think we don’t matter should go and get a job or accept the truth that everyone matters
You can't balance a game around every league of skill. It's simply not possible.
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