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[Locked] February Patch notes discussion

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Could we see arbiters conduit of rage toned down for next patch , it sucks watching tourneys knowing that he will most likely be banned due to him being quote "OP".
And which tournament is banning arbi ?
All the player hosted ones like the one hosted by omega team a few days ago
Thankyou for making this game a broken mess by creating airspam meta 3.0 with no effective counter... Hornets especially need to be nerfed to the ground as they destroy any and all units faster than all units in the game and thankyou for making anti air -Yoinking!- pointless, I love this game but these “balance changes” have me questioning if you even know your own game or are just listening to all the people who want easy wins with no strategy or skill...
This has been done to death. Anti-Air smacks up air. Even leaders with passives that cater to air play can't transition into them at T2. You can counter small numbers with core infantry to hold over until you have AA, which you only need in small amounts. Air cannot secure expansions. Ground can.
In every single game I’ve played a full pop of air outfields a full pop of anti air... ever single game except for when they slightly buffed the anti air before merging it and buffing air in the latest patch, it is beyond a joke. Even using leader powers
Thankyou for making this game a broken mess by creating airspam meta 3.0 with no effective counter... Hornets especially need to be nerfed to the ground as they destroy any and all units faster than all units in the game and thankyou for making anti air -Yoinking!- pointless, I love this game but these “balance changes” have me questioning if you even know your own game or are just listening to all the people who want easy wins with no strategy or skill...
This has been done to death. Anti-Air smacks up air. Even leaders with passives that cater to air play can't transition into them at T2. You can counter small numbers with core infantry to hold over until you have AA, which you only need in small amounts. Air cannot secure expansions. Ground can.
In every single game I’ve played a full pop of air outfields a full pop of anti air... ever single game except for when they slightly buffed the anti air before merging it and buffing air in the latest patch, it is beyond a joke. Even using leader powers
As for your air cannot secure expansions that is -Yoink- they can destroy and secure better than any other force even with a composition & a game like this shouldn’t have the ability to have an army of one unit completely out do an army of their supposed counter and should actually require a composition which this game does not cater to
Thankyou for making this game a broken mess by creating airspam meta 3.0 with no effective counter... Hornets especially need to be nerfed to the ground as they destroy any and all units faster than all units in the game and thankyou for making anti air -Yoinking!- pointless, I love this game but these “balance changes” have me questioning if you even know your own game or are just listening to all the people who want easy wins with no strategy or skill...
In every single game I’ve played a full pop of air outfields a full pop of anti air... ever single game except for when they slightly buffed the anti air before merging it and buffing air in the latest patch, it is beyond a joke. Even using leader powers
As for your air cannot secure expansions that is -Yoink- they can destroy and secure better than any other force even with a composition & a game like this shouldn’t have the ability to have an army of one unit completely out do an army of their supposed counter and should actually require a composition which this game does not cater to
Even if we're talking about Decimus Banshees, 100 pop of AA beats 120 pop of air. That is admittedly not the best ratio, but AA still beats air even when it's buffed by Boundless Siphon and Fury. Kinsano isn't any different, even with Redline II. If you think this is inaccurate, you can watch these games in which Kinsano air gets beaten handily.
come on we need flood in skirmish
Thankyou for making this game a broken mess by creating airspam meta 3.0 with no effective counter... Hornets especially need to be nerfed to the ground as they destroy any and all units faster than all units in the game and thankyou for making anti air -Yoinking!- pointless, I love this game but these “balance changes” have me questioning if you even know your own game or are just listening to all the people who want easy wins with no strategy or skill...
In every single game I’ve played a full pop of air outfields a full pop of anti air... ever single game except for when they slightly buffed the anti air before merging it and buffing air in the latest patch, it is beyond a joke. Even using leader powers
As for your air cannot secure expansions that is -Yoink- they can destroy and secure better than any other force even with a composition & a game like this shouldn’t have the ability to have an army of one unit completely out do an army of their supposed counter and should actually require a composition which this game does not cater to
Even if we're talking about Decimus Banshees, 100 pop of AA beats 120 pop of air. That is admittedly not the best ratio, but AA still beats air even when it's buffed by Boundless Siphon and Fury. Kinsano isn't any different, even with Redline II. If you think this is inaccurate, you can watch these games in which Kinsano air gets beaten handily.
And which base do you crack with 20 supply of fighting units ?
Thankyou for making this game a broken mess by creating airspam meta 3.0 with no effective counter... Hornets especially need to be nerfed to the ground as they destroy any and all units faster than all units in the game and thankyou for making anti air -Yoinking!- pointless, I love this game but these “balance changes” have me questioning if you even know your own game or are just listening to all the people who want easy wins with no strategy or skill...
In every single game I’ve played a full pop of air outfields a full pop of anti air... ever single game except for when they slightly buffed the anti air before merging it and buffing air in the latest patch, it is beyond a joke. Even using leader powers
Even if we're talking about Decimus Banshees, 100 pop of AA beats 120 pop of air. That is admittedly not the best ratio, but AA still beats air even when it's buffed by Boundless Siphon and Fury. Kinsano isn't any different, even with Redline II. If you think this is inaccurate, you can watch these games in which Kinsano air gets beaten handily.
And which base do you crack with 20 supply of fighting units ?
Your ally can bring in Vultures and/or Locust to break bases, seeing as no good player will let their opponent get a 120 pop of air in 1v1.
Thankyou for making this game a broken mess by creating airspam meta 3.0 with no effective counter... Hornets especially need to be nerfed to the ground as they destroy any and all units faster than all units in the game and thankyou for making anti air -Yoinking!- pointless, I love this game but these “balance changes” have me questioning if you even know your own game or are just listening to all the people who want easy wins with no strategy or skill...
In every single game I’ve played a full pop of air outfields a full pop of anti air... ever single game except for when they slightly buffed the anti air before merging it and buffing air in the latest patch, it is beyond a joke. Even using leader powers
Even if we're talking about Decimus Banshees, 100 pop of AA beats 120 pop of air. That is admittedly not the best ratio, but AA still beats air even when it's buffed by Boundless Siphon and Fury. Kinsano isn't any different, even with Redline II. If you think this is inaccurate, you can watch these games in which Kinsano air gets beaten handily.
And which base do you crack with 20 supply of fighting units ?
Your ally can bring in Vultures and/or Locust to break bases, seeing as no good player will let their opponent get a 120 pop of air in 1v1.
There is still the 2. opponents army. While you are right, that letting a peron get 120 pop air with T3 is bad play, it's a sign of bad game balance if there is no effective counter to it .
Thankyou for making this game a broken mess by creating airspam meta 3.0 with no effective counter... Hornets especially need to be nerfed to the ground as they destroy any and all units faster than all units in the game and thankyou for making anti air -Yoinking!- pointless, I love this game but these “balance changes” have me questioning if you even know your own game or are just listening to all the people who want easy wins with no strategy or skill...
In every single game I’ve played a full pop of air outfields a full pop of anti air... ever single game except for when they slightly buffed the anti air before merging it and buffing air in the latest patch, it is beyond a joke. Even using leader powers
Even if we're talking about Decimus Banshees, 100 pop of AA beats 120 pop of air. That is admittedly not the best ratio, but AA still beats air even when it's buffed by Boundless Siphon and Fury. Kinsano isn't any different, even with Redline II. If you think this is inaccurate, you can watch these games in which Kinsano air gets beaten handily.
Your ally can bring in Vultures and/or Locust to break bases, seeing as no good player will let their opponent get a 120 pop of air in 1v1.
There is still the 2. opponents army. While you are right, that letting a peron get 120 pop air with T3 is bad play, it's a sign of bad game balance if there is no effective counter to it .
There is an effective counter to it though. It just so happens that Decimus is much better in team games than he is in 1v1. Unfortunately for team war fanatics, this game isn't balanced around 3v3 or 2v2.
How do we feel about increasing the population cost of basic air units?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the argument around air due primarily to the quantity of units fielded?

I think (?) everyone agrees that once air becomes a critical mass blob, it is very hard to defeat - they can quickly direct fire to you 6-8 supporting AA units and then wreck your remaining forces, or skirt around your army, direct fire your turrets and then ruin your base.

So why not decrease the number available and get rid of this argument of “you shouldn’t let it happen”. For example, you shouldn’t let your opponent build an entire pop of condors, but it happens - and when it does, it can be countered.

(Before you link me to any videos, please ensure they have a bit of scientific integrity.)

If you had to think more carefully about your smaller number of air units, I think it would only be beneficial to the strategy side of the game.
E.g.
1) you could still pump them out early to combat hog rushes (no cost change/ time to build)
2) you could still use them against unsupported Kodiak batteries/ siege turrets
3) you could support them with cyclops/hunters to remove the aa threat - and then push in with the hornets to remove tougher vehicle threats.
4) mix in AI to remove that threat to air and then push on the vehicles with you air units

I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

edit: changed a few thoughts!
How do we feel about increasing the population cost of basic air units?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the argument around air due primarily to the quantity of units fielded?

I think (?) everyone agrees that once air becomes a critical mass blob, it is very hard to defeat - they can quickly direct fire to you 6-8 supporting AA units and then wreck your remaining forces, or skirt around your army, direct fire your turrets and then ruin your base.

So why not decrease the number available and get rid of this argument of “you shouldn’t let it happen”. For example, you shouldn’t let your opponent build an entire pop of condors, but it happens - and when it does, it can be countered.

(Before you link me to any videos, please ensure they have a bit of scientific integrity.)

If you had to think more carefully about your smaller number of air units, I think it would only be beneficial to the strategy side of the game.
E.g.
1) you could still pump them out early to combat hog rushes (no cost change/ time to build)
2) you could still use them against unsupported Kodiak batteries/ siege turrets
3) you could support them with cyclops/hunters to remove the aa threat - and then push in with the hornets to remove tougher vehicle threats.
4) mix in AI to remove that threat to air and then push on the vehicles with you air units

I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

edit: changed a few thoughts!
Thats not the Airs issue, its the leaders passives. Stop trying to nerf air to the ground like every other player that refused to micro their Reavers or Wolverines.
I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

  • Pavium can turtle infinitely, creating a miserable experience in which players of lower skill can win by attrition.
  • Combat Tech Marines beat out their soft counter, and even their Banished hard counter.
  • Arbiter's Enforcers beat scouts, and his tier 3 leader point drop is far too cost efficient.
  • Conduit of Rage in general is blatantly overpowered.
  • Mines in general are blatantly overpowered (especially when used in combos).
  • Flamehogs now beat regular Hogs. Instead of trading damage vs vehicles for extra damage vs infantry and structures, they get increased DPS against all three.
  • There is also the issue of what is underpowered, which is only a slightly less pressing issue than addressing what is broken. This includes Atriox (Fortifications is worthless, Eradication fires so slowly that it missed 9 times out of 10), Shipmaster (Banished Raid as a three point power is worthless), Colony (no teleport makes him nearly unplayable in late game Banished mirrors), and Johnson (Mantises are noticeably underperforming).
This is just part of what is wrong with this game. And you think that air of all things is the one big problem? Air, which can't secure expansions for -Yoink-. Air, which without good passives will die to 2 or 3 AA units early on. Air, which no high level player considers advisable.

Air is only a problem when massed and coupled with a passive such as Redline or Boundless Fury/Siphon. The fact that there are so many people on Waypoint who complain about air speaks to the average skill level of Waypointers, not the balance of the game.
Mr BluDawn wrote:
How do we feel about increasing the population cost of basic air units?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the argument around air due primarily to the quantity of units fielded?

I think (?) everyone agrees that once air becomes a critical mass blob, it is very hard to defeat - they can quickly direct fire to you 6-8 supporting AA units and then wreck your remaining forces, or skirt around your army, direct fire your turrets and then ruin your base.

So why not decrease the number available and get rid of this argument of “you shouldn’t let it happen”. For example, you shouldn’t let your opponent build an entire pop of condors, but it happens - and when it does, it can be countered.

(Before you link me to any videos, please ensure they have a bit of scientific integrity.)

If you had to think more carefully about your smaller number of air units, I think it would only be beneficial to the strategy side of the game.
E.g.
1) you could still pump them out early to combat hog rushes (no cost change/ time to build)
2) you could still use them against unsupported Kodiak batteries/ siege turrets
3) you could support them with cyclops/hunters to remove the aa threat - and then push in with the hornets to remove tougher vehicle threats.
4) mix in AI to remove that threat to air and then push on the vehicles with you air units

I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

edit: changed a few thoughts!
Thats not the Airs issue, its the leaders passives. Stop trying to nerf air to the ground like every other player that refused to micro their Reavers or Wolverines.
I put forward a thought out, structured argument... your response is “get good”?

Welcome to the internet.

Not even sure what point you’re trying to make? Decimus passives?
I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

  • Pavium can turtle infinitely, creating a miserable experience in which players of lower skill can win by attrition.
  • Combat Tech Marines beat out their soft counter, and even their Banished hard counter.
  • Arbiter's Enforcers beat scouts, and his tier 3 leader point drop is far too cost efficient.
  • Conduit of Rage in general is blatantly overpowered.
  • Mines is general are blatantly overpowered (especially when used in combos).
  • Flamehogs now beat regular Hogs. Instead of trading damage vs vehicles for extra damage vs infantry and structures, they get increased DPS against all three.
  • There is also the issue of what is underpowered, which is only a slightly less pressing issue than addressing what is broken. This includes Atriox (Fortifications is worthless, Eradication fires so slowly that it missed 9 times out of 10), Shipmaster (Banished Raid as a three point power is worthless), Colony (no teleport makes him nearly unplayable in late game Banished mirrors), and Johnson (Mantises are noticeably underperforming).
This is just part of what is wrong with this game. And you think that air of all things is the one big problem? Air, which can't secure expansions for -Yoink-. Air, which without good passives will die to 2 or 3 AA units early on. Air, which no high level player considers advisable.

Air is only a problem when massed and coupled with a passive such as Redline or Boundless Fury/Siphon. The fact that there are so many people on Waypoint who complain about air speaks to the average skill level of Waypointers, not the balance of the game.
Keep your wig on, I’m spitballing ideas because the general consensus I’m getting from the forums is that air is a problem. I generally don’t find that to be the case - but as a constructive part of the community, I’m attempting to find a solution, rather than just list of everything I dislike about the game (I’m inclined to suggest you find another - that’s a long, angry list), and insult other players.

To clarify, I meant unit interaction (the triangle) is working a bit better than it did. I didn’t say it was perfect, but it’s in a pretty good place. We can disagree on that, but I’ll do so without insulting your presumed playstyle.

Everyone needs to chill out a bit. Except Serena, she chills too much.

what do you mean by air can’t secure expansions?

And you you don’t think changing the pop would fix air issues?
I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

  • Pavium can turtle infinitely, creating a miserable experience in which players of lower skill can win by attrition.
  • Combat Tech Marines beat out their soft counter, and even their Banished hard counter.
  • Arbiter's Enforcers beat scouts, and his tier 3 leader point drop is far too cost efficient.
  • Conduit of Rage in general is blatantly overpowered.
  • Mines is general are blatantly overpowered (especially when used in combos).
  • Flamehogs now beat regular Hogs. Instead of trading damage vs vehicles for extra damage vs infantry and structures, they get increased DPS against all three.
  • There is also the issue of what is underpowered, which is only a slightly less pressing issue than addressing what is broken. This includes Atriox (Fortifications is worthless, Eradication fires so slowly that it missed 9 times out of 10), Shipmaster (Banished Raid as a three point power is worthless), Colony (no teleport makes him nearly unplayable in late game Banished mirrors), and Johnson (Mantises are noticeably underperforming).
This is just part of what is wrong with this game. And you think that air of all things is the one big problem? Air, which can't secure expansions for -Yoink-. Air, which without good passives will die to 2 or 3 AA units early on. Air, which no high level player considers advisable.

Air is only a problem when massed and coupled with a passive such as Redline or Boundless Fury/Siphon. The fact that there are so many people on Waypoint who complain about air speaks to the average skill level of Waypointers, not the balance of the game.
Keep your wig on, I’m spitballing ideas because the general consensus I’m getting from the forums is that air is a problem. I generally don’t find that to be the case - but as a constructive part of the community, I’m attempting to find a solution, rather than just list of everything I dislike about the game (I’m inclined to suggest you find another - that’s a long, angry list), and insult other players.

To clarify, I meant unit interaction (the triangle) is working a bit better than it did. I didn’t say it was perfect, but it’s in a pretty good place. We can disagree on that, but I’ll do so without insulting your presumed playstyle.

Everyone needs to chill out a bit. Except Serena, she chills too much.

what do you mean by air can’t secure expansions?

And you you don’t think changing the pop would fix air issues?
Changing population values of air wouldn't solve anything, as weak players will still struggle against the mobility of air. Sure, thirty Banshees would destroy a base slightly slower than 40 Banshees, but it doesn't matter when that's not the problem.

The primary issue is that newer/weaker players playing in teams (often solo queue) lack the communication or situational awarness to fight mass air, and because of this, they claim that it's broken/OP. When in reality, it's simply a matter of them not playing correctly. This isn't me trying to bash anyone that complains about air, but most of the people complaining about air aren't taking a step back and looking at what happened, they're resorting to only blaming air.

Air cannot secure expansions. If a player is going mass air and I have a mixed army, my army will win in a straight up fight (assuming I have the proper counters). Air can fly around the map nicely, but it's not winning any straight up fights (save Deci Banshees). Thus, air cannot secure expansions.

I said this in another thread, but I feel that best remedy to this is dropping core air's damage towards structures by 5-10%. This change is 100% no needed, but it would likely help the newer players out, while still allowing core air to remain somewhat viable.
Keep your wig on, I’m spitballing ideas because the general consensus I’m getting from the forums is that air is a problem. I generally don’t find that to be the case - but as a constructive part of the community, I’m attempting to find a solution, rather than just list of everything I dislike about the game (I’m inclined to suggest you find another - that’s a long, angry list), and insult other players.

To clarify, I meant unit interaction (the triangle) is working a bit better than it did. I didn’t say it was perfect, but it’s in a pretty good place. We can disagree on that, but I’ll do so without insulting your presumed playstyle.

Everyone needs to chill out a bit. Except Serena, she chills too much.

what do you mean by air can’t secure expansions?

And you you don’t think changing the pop would fix air issues?
Me disagreeing with the "general consensus" isn't to be confused with anger. Frustration, perhaps. That said, I don't wear a wig in the first place. The point is that this game cannot be balanced around what low and mid level players want. It needs to be balanced at the highest level. I don't see a way of reaching an alternative conclusion whilst employing sound reasoning.

What I listed aren't "things [I] dislike", they're problems with the game. There is a difference. I'm being objective. The "general consensus" folks are not. And as for insulting other players, I might recognized difference in skill but is that an insult? Did I single anyone out? I don't think so. "Playstyle" is once again different from skill level. You're confusing many terms.

If you think air can secure expansions, you can add me and we'll see how well you do trying to expo with air when I've got an infantry ball that can beat you in a direct engagement handily.

Changing the pop of Air would not fix anything because there is nothing to fix.
I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

Changing population values of air wouldn't solve anything, as weak players will still struggle against the mobility of air. Sure, thirty Banshees would destroy a base slightly slower than 40 Banshees, but it doesn't matter when that's not the problem.

The primary issue is that newer/weaker players playing in teams (often solo queue) lack the communication or situational awarness to fight mass air, and because of this, they claim that it's broken/OP. When in reality, it's simply a matter of them not playing correctly. This isn't me trying to bash anyone that complains about air, but most of the people complaining about air aren't taking a step back and looking at what happened, they're resorting to only blaming air.

Air cannot secure expansions. If a player is going mass air and I have a mixed army, my army will win in a straight up fight (assuming I have the proper counters). Air can fly around the map nicely, but it's not winning any straight up fights (save Deci Banshees). Thus, air cannot secure expansions.

I said this in another thread, but I feel that best remedy to this is dropping core air's damage towards structures by 5-10%. This change is 100% no needed, but it would likely help the newer players out, while still allowing core air to remain somewhat viable.
Wasn't the issue of "hog rushing" solved, in part, by increasing their pop? I may have made that up in my head, I just thought that was the solution. Decreased the critical mass that could be fielded and helped solve the problem?

Similarly, I take issue with the fact that when mass Kodiaks became a problem – either their build time/ cost (or both, cant remember) was modified so people could deal with them. And yet, when its air, people say “you shouldn’t let it get that far”. Its just an inconsistent approach – are we working to the top level players (the 1 v 1 where these issues aren’t a problem) or the wider community (3 v 3, where they clearly are).

Thanks for the explanation, I wasn’t sure what Cars meant – I would never assume to use air to hold down a position though? I would use Kodiaks and AA, which when confronted with an air army, would be soundly defeated and I would lose my expansion… so yes, I agree they can’t hold them, but they are much better at denying them than any other unit, adding to their overall effectiveness.

Something that would be remedied with your damage reduction proposal which I 100% behind, I just think it is worth considering alternatives.

Me disagreeing with the "general consensus" isn't to be confused with anger. Frustration, perhaps. That said, I don't wear a wig in the first place. The point is that this game cannot be balanced around what low and mid level players want. It needs to be balanced at the highest level. I don't see a way of reaching an alternative conclusion whilst employing sound reasoning.

What I listed aren't "things dislike", they're problems with the game. There is a difference. I'm being objective. The "general consensus" folks are not. And as for insulting other players, I might recognized difference in skill but is that an insult? Did I single anyone out? I don't think so. "Playstyle" is once again different from skill level. You're confusing many terms.

If you think air can secure expansions, you can add me and we'll see how well you do trying to expo with air when I've got an infantry ball that can beat you in a direct engagement handily.

Changing the pop of Air would not fix anything because there is nothing to fix.
Idioms are lost on you and your head of hair.

I apologise then, for interpreting your writing style as angry, and getting you confused with the previous responded RE playstyle. If my posts are confusing I will clarify - however, I believe you're just engaging in semantics and I’m not sure why.

However, do you see the irony in what you are saying? What I listed aren't "things dislike", they're problems with the game. According to.. you? According to 34 players? 80? Everyone? I’ve written this before somewhere, we should listen to statistics and consensus, not who shouts loudest - if the data says air is OP, supported by opinion (of which we are limited to the forum player base, not the wider game’s population) then I believe it to be OP. If the data, and the players, say the opposite, then I believe that too.

You don’t do yourself any favours by the fact you immediately assumed I was disagreeing with you regarding air and expansions. I wasn’t, I was asking for an explanation that Joker provided. In addition, when did I say that an infantry ball would not beat air?

You believe there is nothing to fix, and that’s fine. The first three people have all disagreed with my suggestion, and that’s fine too. I think balancing this game is a team effort!
Mr BluDawn wrote:
How do we feel about increasing the population cost of basic air units?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the argument around air due primarily to the quantity of units fielded?

I think (?) everyone agrees that once air becomes a critical mass blob, it is very hard to defeat - they can quickly direct fire to you 6-8 supporting AA units and then wreck your remaining forces, or skirt around your army, direct fire your turrets and then ruin your base.

So why not decrease the number available and get rid of this argument of “you shouldn’t let it happen”. For example, you shouldn’t let your opponent build an entire pop of condors, but it happens - and when it does, it can be countered.

(Before you link me to any videos, please ensure they have a bit of scientific integrity.)

If you had to think more carefully about your smaller number of air units, I think it would only be beneficial to the strategy side of the game.
E.g.
1) you could still pump them out early to combat hog rushes (no cost change/ time to build)
2) you could still use them against unsupported Kodiak batteries/ siege turrets
3) you could support them with cyclops/hunters to remove the aa threat - and then push in with the hornets to remove tougher vehicle threats.
4) mix in AI to remove that threat to air and then push on the vehicles with you air units

I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

edit: changed a few thoughts!
Thats not the Airs issue, its the leaders passives. Stop trying to nerf air to the ground like every other player that refused to micro their Reavers or Wolverines.
I put forward a thought out, structured argument... your response is “get good”?

Welcome to the internet.

Not even sure what point you’re trying to make? Decimus passives?
Decimus and Kinsano and Arbiter are what make air seem so broken.
If people are fighting mass air its always one of those leaders and its usually Decimus.
Honestly we generally do say just get good because AA is fine and still does its jobs.
Last night I chased an army of Hornets with litteraly 4 Reavers and killed over half of them
Their are many mini videos showing that air isn't broken at all by TheWall and his friends, I suggest you look at them to get a better idea of the situation.
Addition: The Issue with the Hog rush wasn't solved by making Hogs 4 pop, It was solved by making AV not lose to T2 Vehicles and having tanks actually shred them now.
Idioms are lost on you and your head of hair. I apologise then, for interpreting your writing style as angry, and getting you confused with the previous responded RE playstyle. If my posts are confusing I will clarify - however, I believe you're just engaging in semantics and I’m not sure why.

However, do you see the irony in what you are saying? What I listed aren't "things dislike", they're problems with the game. According to.. you? According to 34 players? 80? Everyone? I’ve written this before somewhere, we should listen to statistics and consensus, not who shouts loudest - if the data says air is OP, supported by opinion (of which we are limited to the forum player base, not the wider game’s population) then I believe it to be OP. If the data, and the players, say the opposite, then I believe that too.

You don’t do yourself any favours by the fact you immediately assumed I was disagreeing with you regarding air and expansions. I wasn’t, I was asking for an explanation that Joker provided. In addition, when did I say that an infantry ball would not beat air?

You believe there is nothing to fix, and that’s fine. The first three people have all disagreed with my suggestion, and that’s fine too. I think balancing this game is a team effort!
I comprehend your idiom just fine, but it seems you don't pick up dry humor when you see it. Don't you worry though, I might be needing a wig soon enough.

I'm arguing semantics because we need to be on the same page. The terms you're using need to be distinguished. People of equal skill can have different playstyles. However, it can be confusing if you use the term as a euphemism for someone who is at a lower level of play than others.

The issues I listed are problems with the game according to the high level community. People who are more or less good at the game. The good kids. No other consensus matters. Balancing the game around low or even mid level players will result in a game that no one will want to stick with for the coming years. Everyone gets better with time. So balance the game at the highest possible level. It's quite literally the only method that makes a lick of sense. If you want data, don't bother factoring in the opinions of those who have been stuck in Gold III the entire season. In fact, if you really want to be empirical I would suggest you survey how many Onyx and below players think Air is OP and then compare it to the amount of Champion players who think Air is OP. You will find the difference in ratios to be surprising.

Both might be flawed methods of argumentation, but an appeal to authority is a helluva lot more persuasive than an appeal to the majority.

In regards to air securing expansions, I don't see how I didn't provide an answer. Here, I'll even let you watch why they can't secure expansions.
I just feel air, with leader powers, is too good at steamrolling the map, whilst everything else is in a pretty good place now in terms of strengths/ weaknesses.

Changing population values of air wouldn't solve anything, as weak players will still struggle against the mobility of air. Sure, thirty Banshees would destroy a base slightly slower than 40 Banshees, but it doesn't matter when that's not the problem.

The primary issue is that newer/weaker players playing in teams (often solo queue) lack the communication or situational awarness to fight mass air, and because of this, they claim that it's broken/OP. When in reality, it's simply a matter of them not playing correctly. This isn't me trying to bash anyone that complains about air, but most of the people complaining about air aren't taking a step back and looking at what happened, they're resorting to only blaming air.

Air cannot secure expansions. If a player is going mass air and I have a mixed army, my army will win in a straight up fight (assuming I have the proper counters). Air can fly around the map nicely, but it's not winning any straight up fights (save Deci Banshees). Thus, air cannot secure expansions.

I said this in another thread, but I feel that best remedy to this is dropping core air's damage towards structures by 5-10%. This change is 100% no needed, but it would likely help the newer players out, while still allowing core air to remain somewhat viable.
Wasn't the issue of "hog rushing" solved, in part, by increasing their pop? I may have made that up in my head, I just thought that was the solution. Decreased the critical mass that could be fielded and helped solve the problem?

Similarly, I take issue with the fact that when mass Kodiaks became a problem – either their build time/ cost (or both, cant remember) was modified so people could deal with them. And yet, when its air, people say “you shouldn’t let it get that far”. Its just an inconsistent approach – are we working to the top level players (the 1 v 1 where these issues aren’t a problem) or the wider community (3 v 3, where they clearly are).

Thanks for the explanation, I wasn’t sure what Cars meant – I would never assume to use air to hold down a position though? I would use Kodiaks and AA, which when confronted with an air army, would be soundly defeated and I would lose my expansion… so yes, I agree they can’t hold them, but they are much better at denying them than any other unit, adding to their overall effectiveness.

Something that would be remedied with your damage reduction proposal which I 100% behind, I just think it is worth considering alternatives.

Quick-tech Hogs was a completely different issue, for a variety of reasons. Quick tech Hogs were a problem because;

-UNSC AI Turrets could hold off basically any early game push
-AV units weren't functioning properly
-Air units couldn't be used, as AA would rinse them and air units didn't do enough damage to Hogs; Hogs almost traded with air units

Because of these reasons, there was really nothing a player could do against quick-tech hogs, other than, well, quick-tech Hogs themselves. There were some leaders that had alternatives, such as Yap, who could Spam Heavy Grunts and some support units and do well. But for the most part, it was spam Hogs, or lose.

The increase in population had little to no affect on any of these. Hogs were simply too strong, in many areas, to warrant having a cost of 3 population.

Kodiaks were an issue, yes, but they were largely a problem because of how strong AA was and how bad air was. A player was unable to build a handful of air units to snipe out artillery, as AA would shut them down almost instantly. The air buff, along with the Kodiak nerfs, remedied this problem fairly well, in my opinion

I agree that air is much better in 3's, where maps are larger, but it's still easy to stop, even when in large masses. It comes down to player skill, communication, situation awareness, and game knowledge. I hate to sound like an elitist, but there's a reason none of the good 3's teams claim air is OP; because it's fairly balanced.
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