Forums / Games / Halo Wars 2

Hog Rush too much??

OP LikelySquidward

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200 Supply Warthogs
18 second build Time
Triple Pump them

6 Warthogs before 5 minutes
Max Population by 7 minutes while clensing the entire map.

I dont know about you but this new meta seems a bit unfair. (Not as bad as Colony) but having tech 2 at 2:50minute mark without any type of economy punishment seems to be too much. Which is why u see alot of people using it.

Any ideas to nerf the strat.
Mainly from Isabel (Forge & Anders are victims of it too)
I'm heavily testing now squid I think I found a way to make it worse.
I'm heavily testing now squid I think I found a way to make it worse.
Too late.
In 2s saw a player get tech 2 at 2:07 mark.
The teammate funneled him 200 power & 200 Supply right when the game start
The Isabel was receiving the $ while Forge was giving it to him.
Had AT Least 12 Hogs by 4 minutes.
Only flaw with that is the Forge is FAR behind in Economy. But nobody will be able to get a useful attack agaimst him when u have 3 warthogs running around before 3 minutes.
I find hard to believe that is very effective. I think someone did that to me and defeated them with nothing but heavy grunts (with y stun), and methane wagons.

I'm sure banshees or hunters would have stopped it too. Heck I think I've gotten a scarab/condor in 7 min.

You could do same thing in reverse, funnel resources to have an army of banshees in a few min.
Only suggestion that comes to mind is increasing build time for Warthogs or increasing time to get to T2. But that nerfs every other leader that doesn't have a strong T1.
I find hard to believe that is very effective. I think someone did that to me and defeated them with nothing but heavy grunts (with y stun), and methane wagons.

I'm sure banshees or hunters would have stopped it too.
I don't say this often, but someone who is really proficient at Isabel Hogs will almost always win, very difficult to stop, especially if you don't know it's coming.
Yes... I like hogs...
Problem
This does need to be addressed but it's complicated. Air isn't that good to rush because access to infantry counters it. However pumping core vehicles at 3:00 is quite hard to counter as Anti-Vehicle doesnt come unit tech 2 also takes power and to have an established power and supply while tech 2 at 2:30 is a lot to ask for. Your other option is to rush but how much damage can you cause in 3:00? Goliaths, Jet packs, and brute rider do great base damage however flamethrowers are not as big of a threat to a base. If you choose to go one of those three and the go flames you will be at a eco disadvantage since you will need to build extremely early raid camps. You could scout in the begining but if you wait to see what they have before you build raid camps and/or produce building killers you will lose. Mainly because it will be too late.
Possible Solution
I feel we have not been able to play core vehicles for awhile and would hate to see them go away so to nerf but keep viable would be Increase build time. 5s so lets say warthogs 20s->25s and see how that goes (Warthog and Mauraders)
Side Note: Flame hogs need a damage buff they suck :)
Army of only methane wagons :P

Pretty sure they crush hogs/marauders head to head.
I’ve been complaining about this. They nerfed anti vehicle units against tier 2 vehicles but made them better against tier 3 (tanks) and made them more expensive. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Anti vehicle kills tier 2 but tier 3 vehicles are stronger against anti vehicle? If tier 2 vehicles has mobility then they should be easily defeated by anti vehicle and it’s simply not the case. Cutter was nerfed so his raid can’t even catch wart hogs. Not to mention a full army of anti vehicle can’t kill a base due to the lack of building damage. Can’t go air against vehicle cause vehicles build anti air. Pretty crappy balancing if you ask me. the energy cost to anti vehicle units needs to be decreased if the current balance to damage is kept.
I find hard to believe that is very effective. I think someone did that to me and defeated them with nothing but heavy grunts (with y stun), and methane wagons.

I'm sure banshees or hunters would have stopped it too. Heck I think I've gotten a scarab/condor in 7 min.

You could do same thing in reverse, funnel resources to have an army of banshees in a few min.
I have done the same thing myself, AV is tooo exspensive, and overwhelme their hogs and abuse base or run if they have turrets.
I’ve been complaining about this. They nerfed anti vehicle units against tier 2 vehicles but made them better against tier 3 (tanks) and made them more expensive. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Anti vehicle kills tier 2 but tier 3 vehicles are stronger against anti vehicle? If tier 2 vehicles has mobility then they should be easily defeated by anti vehicle and it’s simply not the case. Cutter was nerfed so his raid can’t even catch wart hogs. Not to mention a full army of anti vehicle can’t kill a base due to the lack of building damage. Can’t go air against vehicle cause vehicles build anti air. Pretty crappy balancing if you ask me. the energy cost to anti vehicle units needs to be decreased if the current balance to damage is kept.
Cutters Raid made other UNSC not worth playing so that's fine. Hunters cyclops are pretty cheap so the cost is fine. We could say to increase damage to core vehicles but that will just go back to the same meta we were in. TBH I feel that increase build time will reduce the hog spam and allow the other player to get enough AV units after scouting.
ProblemThis does need to be addressed but it's complicated. Air isn't that good to rush because access to infantry counters it. However pumping core vehicles at 3:00 is quite hard to counter as Anti-Vehicle doesnt come unit tech 2 also takes power and to have an established power and supply while tech 2 at 2:30 is a lot to ask for. Your other option is to rush but how much damage can you cause in 3:00? Goliaths, Jet packs, and brute rider do great base damage however flamethrowers are not as big of a threat to a base. If you choose to go one of those three and the go flames you will be at a eco disadvantage since you will need to build extremely early raid camps. You could scout in the begining but if you wait to see what they have before you build raid camps and/or produce building killers you will lose. Mainly because it will be too late.
Possible SolutionI feel we have not been able to play core vehicles for awhile and would hate to see them go away so to nerf but keep viable would be Increase build time. 5s so lets say warthogs 20s->25s and see how that goes (Warthog and Mauraders)
Side Note: Flame hogs need a damage buff they suck :)
I agree with everything here, with a five second nerf to core vehicles BuildTime and a Reduced damage to Anti-Vehicles from core Vehicles could be balanced assuming the nerf isn't too big.

Re-Side Note:
FlameHogs.
A buff to Building Damage and Maybe*
Exclude the nerf to Ant-Vehicles Since they perform vary poorly against Core Vehicles.
I’ve been complaining about this. They nerfed anti vehicle units against tier 2 vehicles but made them better against tier 3 (tanks) and made them more expensive. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Anti vehicle kills tier 2 but tier 3 vehicles are stronger against anti vehicle? If tier 2 vehicles has mobility then they should be easily defeated by anti vehicle and it’s simply not the case. Cutter was nerfed so his raid can’t even catch wart hogs. Not to mention a full army of anti vehicle can’t kill a base due to the lack of building damage. Can’t go air against vehicle cause vehicles build anti air. Pretty crappy balancing if you ask me. the energy cost to anti vehicle units needs to be decreased if the current balance to damage is kept.
The new meta exist because
The Grizzly attack with Forge & the Scorpion/Nightingale with Isabel was near unbeatable. So thats the main reason why the had to buff up Anti Vehicle against tier 3. So its a hard way to balance
I don't think warts cost 200 supplies right off the bat. Even with AV which is probably lacking to do their job, there are ways to stop a warthog spam. You can rush in the beginning, as they can't afford to buy many units if they are rushing to tier 2, you can also fight for the power supplies on the map. A rush at 3 minutes and they will maybe have one or two warthogs out, a few marines don't mind that. Now if you don't rush, and you know what he is doing, you can do the same warthog spam or counter with AV combined with mauraders/warthogs. Even with AV lacking, you will win. Your army will be slower but at least your army will beat his.
I don't think warts cost 200 supplies right off the bat. Even with AV which is probably lacking to do their job, there are ways to stop a warthog spam. You can rush in the beginning, as they can't afford to buy many units if they are rushing to tier 2, you can also fight for the power supplies on the map. A rush at 3 minutes and they will maybe have one or two warthogs out, a few marines don't mind that. Now if you don't rush, and you know what he is doing, you can do the same warthog spam or counter with AV combined with mauraders/warthogs. Even with AV lacking, you will win. Your army will be slower but at least your army will beat his.
The thing is, most leaders who can spam Hogs effectively also have good early game options (aside from Isa). Forge's hero opener will lambaste Marines, and Anders can get Inf upgrade 1 and Gren throw for half off due to R&D. Most players aren't going to adhere to a specific strategy, but rather adapt to what the other side is doing. If they think a straight up fast tech is too risky, they can always set off their T2 for more defenses.
I don't think warts cost 200 supplies right off the bat. Even with AV which is probably lacking to do their job, there are ways to stop a warthog spam. You can rush in the beginning, as they can't afford to buy many units if they are rushing to tier 2, you can also fight for the power supplies on the map. A rush at 3 minutes and they will maybe have one or two warthogs out, a few marines don't mind that. Now if you don't rush, and you know what he is doing, you can do the same warthog spam or counter with AV combined with mauraders/warthogs. Even with AV lacking, you will win. Your army will be slower but at least your army will beat his.
The thing is, most leaders who can spam Hogs effectively also have good early game options (aside from Isa). Forge's hero opener will lambaste Marines, and Anders can get Inf upgrade 1 and Gren throw for half off due to R&D. Most players aren't going to adhere to a specific strategy, but rather adapt to what the other side is doing. If they think a straight up fast tech is too risky, they can always set off their T2 for more defenses.
That's why I usually put pressure in the beginning and I can tell you it's rare that someone who did nothing but rush to t2 can get away with it. They can't afford to buy mini bases early or build more than one turret. If they do it slows them down. If they don't get the mini bases then that's where I can grab them and put a barracks to add pressure. If forge gets his hero out that really really slows down the t2 rush.
The thing is, most leaders who can spam Hogs effectively also have good early game options (aside from Isa). Forge's hero opener will lambaste Marines, and Anders can get Inf upgrade 1 and Gren throw for half off due to R&D. Most players aren't going to adhere to a specific strategy, but rather adapt to what the other side is doing. If they think a straight up fast tech is too risky, they can always set off their T2 for more defenses.
That's why I usually put pressure in the beginning and I can tell you it's rare that someone who did nothing but rush to t2 can get away with it. They can't afford to buy mini bases early or build more than one turret. If they do it slows them down. If they don't get the mini bases then that's where I can grab them and put a barracks to add pressure.
As someone who fast techs quite a lot, I can tell you that I can get a minibase and 2 turrets up just fine. Some players don't know this, but going Gen 1st and not building another one gets you a faster T2 than going 3rd and 5th. Building an extra Marine to gather supplies will grant you enough supplies to get minis and/or turrets.
The thing is, most leaders who can spam Hogs effectively also have good early game options (aside from Isa). Forge's hero opener will lambaste Marines, and Anders can get Inf upgrade 1 and Gren throw for half off due to R&D. Most players aren't going to adhere to a specific strategy, but rather adapt to what the other side is doing. If they think a straight up fast tech is too risky, they can always set off their T2 for more defenses.
That's why I usually put pressure in the beginning and I can tell you it's rare that someone who did nothing but rush to t2 can get away with it. They can't afford to buy mini bases early or build more than one turret. If they do it slows them down. If they don't get the mini bases then that's where I can grab them and put a barracks to add pressure.
As someone who fast techs quite a lot, I can tell you that I can get a minibase and 2 turrets up just fine. Some players don't know this, but going Gen 1st and not building another one gets you a faster T2 than going 3rd and 5th. Building an extra Marine to gather supplies will grant you enough supplies to get minis and/or turrets.
True. You can tech 2 faster if you grab the power first, but yes. If you are getting 2 turrets up and a mini base or two I imagine at the point where you tech up to tier is slightly slower than if someone grabbed all the power supplies and started teching up at 2:00. If you'd like I'd like to try to see if I could stop your tech 2 rush with tier 1 units
The thing is, most leaders who can spam Hogs effectively also have good early game options (aside from Isa). Forge's hero opener will lambaste Marines, and Anders can get Inf upgrade 1 and Gren throw for half off due to R&D. Most players aren't going to adhere to a specific strategy, but rather adapt to what the other side is doing. If they think a straight up fast tech is too risky, they can always set off their T2 for more defenses.
As someone who fast techs quite a lot, I can tell you that I can get a minibase and 2 turrets up just fine. Some players don't know this, but going Gen 1st and not building another one gets you a faster T2 than going 3rd and 5th. Building an extra Marine to gather supplies will grant you enough supplies to get minis and/or turrets.
True. You can tech 2 faster if you grab the power first, but yes. If you are getting 2 turrets up and a mini base or two I imagine at the point where you tech up to tier is slightly slower than if someone grabbed all the power supplies and started teching up at 2:00. If you'd like I'd like to try to see if I could stop your tech 2 rush with tier 1 units
Most of the time, I don't go for a fast T2 if I see the other guy going for a hero opener or heavy into infantry. In 2s, if both the players dedicate to T1 and hit a guy who is going straight T2, they can win it right there. I'd rather match them than take a risk and hope I can hold a push with a couple turrets.
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