Hog Rush too much??

LikelySquidward wrote:

Ol Skool85 wrote:

LikelySquidward wrote:

Ol Skool85 wrote:

BreezyStarfish1 wrote:

Ol Skool85 wrote:

What are you people doing or not doing that is giving you so much trouble with warthogs? Is it really the game that needs changing? Or is it your strategy?

I've had matches where I was able to roll over my opponents with hogs. But it was usually because they didn't attack my base and they didn't bother to obtain any of the power stacks scattered throughout the map. Rather than bolster defenses at their main bases, they spent their time and resources trying to stop me from attacking their newly constructed base.

If you spend most of your time in this game on the defense, you're going to have a difficult time.

The issue is if you have someone quick tech to hogs you are at a ridiculous disadvantage. The have a faster and more powerful army before you can get out AV.

It's not ridiculously overpowered, but it is unfair.

Unfair how?

If someone hits T2 before you, is that their fault or yours?

Sure, it'd be nice to see Cyclops get a little buff. But if you're leaving your opponent alone, can you really fault them for hitting you with an attack that leaves you in a difficult position?

One thing I've learned with this game, if you leave your opponent alone, you're going to be in for a hard time.

The past few matches I've had where I was very successful had 1 thing in common, every opponent spent their time not paying attention to me.

Not if there hitting tech 2 before 3 minites and by 4 minutes ythe ahve 6-8 hogs.

How do they have that many hogs by 4mns? I think you may be exaggerating.

As Forge, i build 1Gen, immediately upgrade, build supply pads with remaining resources and try to grab a minibase.

Even if I were to obtain some of the power stacks throughout the map, I can only begin T2 research around 2.25 to 2:40.

Once you hit T2, after about 30 seconds, then can you construct a garage which takes about 25 seconds? Once you get that, then you have to build hogs which take about 18 seconds.

How are you getting 6-8 hogs before 4mns?

Please tell me your ways

Upgraded Power Node
Supply Pad
Supply Pad
Marine
Supply Pad
MiniBase
SupplyPad.
All while taking map resources. Tech2 at 2:37 triple pump warthogs. 7 by 4:09

So if you face resistance when trying to obtain map resources and such, won't that hinder your fast tech?

So shouldn't the strategy be to try and stop Isabel or Forge from fast tech?

I agree with what some of you are saying about the Hog rush being a bit OP (I've lost to, beaten and teamed up with DC Longshot as Isabel), and yet I don't really know how I would work to balance the situation ( triple pumping warthogs at 4 mins is absurd). I think the hinted at cyclops buff against T2 vehicles will certainly help. However, I have some major issues with this thread.

I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the posters in this thread's train of thought when it comes to delaying T2 for every leader or decreasing power income in any way. Power income was already nerfed with the decrease to the rate of power given from power nodes a few patches ago. If any decrease happens then quick teching will be completely eliminated as a competitive option. Remember when everyone raised hell about "chopper wars 2" or pre nerf yap-yap rushes; how quickly we all forget what happens when quick teching is not a viable strategy. When quick teching is not viable the game turns into rush wars where the leader with the best T1 building killer spam ( or whatever T1 unit is strong at that time) will reign supreme (due to the current ineptitude of scouts) and a lot of games will never even advance past T1.

The threat of someone quick teching is an aspect of what makes this a strategy game (loosly). It forces those who want to rush with 2 barracks out of their first 5 buildings to make a decision: and decisions are good things:

Do I build my 2 barracks?
I have to invest a lot of resources into this by not only buying the units but sacrificing building a 2nd generator. This in turn sacrifices my time to get to T2 with the hopes that my opponent is not ready for the rush and I can do more damage to him that I inflict on my own economy. If I do it right I can potentially cripple the opponent to the point where I will have an overwhelming advantage.

In the current meta this is risky (as it should be) because if your opponent is able to successfully tech up then the rusher will be at a significant disadvantage.

The knowledge that quick teching is a possibility makes the rush a high risk- high reward situation and once again forces players to make a conscious decision of what route they wish to take (rush vs tech). It makes an all-in rush just that; all in.

If the threat of quick teching is eliminated then the smart decision is clear and the game becomes mindless T1 unit spam (likely building killers) and both players will likely be forced to go double barracks every game with people who build 2 generators being at a crippling disadvantage. This will completely eliminate some leaders from viability and ruin any semblance of variety the game currently has.

Does that sound like a better alternative? I say **** no.

With how easy it is to take an opponents mini base right near their base and pump units, and the abunance of early supply after the change to the supply curve, the rush will always be a viable option. The game already has enough built in advantages for rushing/ playing aggressively at the start, especially in 1's which the game should be balanced around. Those who play aggressively/rush at the start, if played well, will have power node advantage, leader point advantage, will likely have collected far more resources than their teching opponent will often have the freedom to expand while preventing the other player from doing so.

Moral of the story: make the players decide which road they want to take (rush vs tech) based on scouting/ player style or leader matchup. Don't make the decision for them by eliminating the viability of quick teching

also #makeScorpionsandWraithsgreatagain

DC Longshot wrote:

Ol Skool85 wrote:

LikelySquidward wrote:

Ol Skool85 wrote:

LikelySquidward wrote:

Ol Skool85 wrote:

BreezyStarfish1 wrote:

Ol Skool85 wrote:

What are you people doing or not doing that is giving you so much trouble with warthogs? Is it really the game that needs changing? Or is it your strategy?

I've had matches where I was able to roll over my opponents with hogs. But it was usually because they didn't attack my base and they didn't bother to obtain any of the power stacks scattered throughout the map. Rather than bolster defenses at their main bases, they spent their time and resources trying to stop me from attacking their newly constructed base.

If you spend most of your time in this game on the defense, you're going to have a difficult time.

The issue is if you have someone quick tech to hogs you are at a ridiculous disadvantage. The have a faster and more powerful army before you can get out AV.

It's not ridiculously overpowered, but it is unfair.

Unfair how?

If someone hits T2 before you, is that their fault or yours?

Sure, it'd be nice to see Cyclops get a little buff. But if you're leaving your opponent alone, can you really fault them for hitting you with an attack that leaves you in a difficult position?

One thing I've learned with this game, if you leave your opponent alone, you're going to be in for a hard time.

The past few matches I've had where I was very successful had 1 thing in common, every opponent spent their time not paying attention to me.

Not if there hitting tech 2 before 3 minites and by 4 minutes ythe ahve 6-8 hogs.

How do they have that many hogs by 4mns? I think you may be exaggerating.

As Forge, i build 1Gen, immediately upgrade, build supply pads with remaining resources and try to grab a minibase.

Even if I were to obtain some of the power stacks throughout the map, I can only begin T2 research around 2.25 to 2:40.

Once you hit T2, after about 30 seconds, then can you construct a garage which takes about 25 seconds? Once you get that, then you have to build hogs which take about 18 seconds.

How are you getting 6-8 hogs before 4mns?

Please tell me your ways

Upgraded Power Node
Supply Pad
Supply Pad
Marine
Supply Pad
MiniBase
SupplyPad.
All while taking map resources. Tech2 at 2:37 triple pump warthogs. 7 by 4:09

So if you face resistance when trying to obtain map resources and such, won't that hinder your fast tech?

So shouldn't the strategy be to try and stop Isabel or Forge from fast tech?

The tech up is so fast, and anti infantry turrets so effective, that rushing against them isn't nearly as effective as it should be. There should be a huge penalty for teching up and ignoring T1, but it's just not there. A person would have to blindly rush a Forge/Isabel by 3 minutes and pray they don't have turrets up.

The most effective way to slowing them down is fighting for power crates (not nodes) and taking their mini bases as soon as possible. Without minis Isabel can't tell pump and Forge has to choose between double pump or Forgehog. At the same time, quick tech yourself. Don't upgrade supply pads, build core infantry for nodes but tech up early and get an expo. By the time they take their minis back and have a Force to attack you should have enough AV to defend. I've been stopped by double pump hunters + shield before. Cyclops+ gales isn't as recommended. They're too squishy vs hogs. Honestly speaking, it's a quick tech meta. And that's unfortunate.

Edit: By the way, sorry we haven't had our match. It seems we're never available at the same time. If you see me on shoot me an invite.

You've got a strategy. And from what Ive witnessed firsthand, it does work in 3v3

Ive been playing as Isabel a lot lately. Sure I can build 2 gens and try to grab power crates in the beginning to start T2 research around 2:15. But you have next to nothing for supplies. Surely not enough to buy turrets and upgrade to anti infantry turrets. Furthermore, when my opponents compete for power crates, it increases the amount of time to get to T2.

I only play 3v3. Been doing it with all random players. There are times where I may be able to catch someone off guard with several hogs before 5 minutes. But Isabel or Forge are not unstoppable against a team that communicates and works together.

I actually like the core vehicle meta but I would like it to turn into a core UNIT meta. Meaning, infantry needs a place and right now the only thing infantry is good for is node control and a soft counter to air. Ideally, I would like a progression in intensity. T1, T2, and finally T3 with Wraiths and Scorpions. Those need to become useful and relevant.

AV will need a buff regardless, though. They simply don't get a return on their investment and even if you do manage to get enough of them out to do damage they WILL fall off against skilled players. Not "might fall off" but WILL. Once the enemy gets gauss/thick hide and vehicle upgrades (things they can afford to get because they aren't spending power) you will lose. Not to mention leader powers, most of which cost power in some capacity.

To echo many players here, I don't want to see core vehicles become useless again. I want to see counter units actually getting the job done and I think there are multiple avenues of approach here. Buffing damage is one possibility but I think buffing damage resistance is important too. Maybe not both at the same time, depending on the values. But it would force the person going hogs to build anti-infantry, giving snipers and rangers a place in the meta.

This also might be an unpopular opinion on these forums but I do think air is in a really tough spot. Unless you are critical mass there is simply no hope in air units. They were decent in the marauder meta where a few banshees could turn the tide, but this is the UNSC/hog meta where banshees get smoked instantly. Not saying buff air or anything, but maybe down the line if they continue to under-perform after this patch.

FungusUCantKill wrote:

AssimilateTh1s wrote:

FungusUCantKill wrote:

AssimilateTh1s wrote:

I can agree with this. I don't like the idea of T2 taking longer.

Instead, I'd rather see hog build time increase or their pop return to 4. The answer has to be either of those, or add a small power cost to hogs (which I don't know if I like).

I actually rather like this. With counter units costing so much power and not trading well at all at the moment this is an idea I could get behind. Maybe 20 power a piece or something along those lines. At the very least it would delay (if only negligibly) T3 and guass. It all depends on the upcoming AV changes though as I certainly don't want warthogs to be worthless again.

Agreed.
Since the typical hog rush involves one gen, it would really set you back to have to invest power into mass-pumping the units.
I think 20 power would be OK. It's weird that jackrabbits cost 15p and even 5p with ACC -Yoink- II. and yet hogs don't cost any.

20 supplies to power would actually make hogs easier to build during a hog rush unless you mean add 20 power but I think hogs are too cheap currently and additional 20 supplies might be worth their cost.

Viper Skills wrote:

I actually like the core vehicle meta but I would like it to turn into a core UNIT meta. Meaning, infantry needs a place and right now the only thing infantry is good for is node control and a soft counter to air. Ideally, I would like a progression in intensity. T1, T2, and finally T3 with Wraiths and Scorpions. Those need to become useful and relevant.

AV will need a buff regardless, though. They simply don't get a return on their investment and even if you do manage to get enough of them out to do damage they WILL fall off against skilled players. Not "might fall off" but WILL. Once the enemy gets gauss/thick hide and vehicle upgrades (things they can afford to get because they aren't spending power) you will lose. Not to mention leader powers, most of which cost power in some capacity.

To echo many players here, I don't want to see core vehicles become useless again. I want to see counter units actually getting the job done and I think there are multiple avenues of approach here. Buffing damage is one possibility but I think buffing damage resistance is important too. Maybe not both at the same time, depending on the values. But it would force the person going hogs to build anti-infantry, giving snipers and rangers a place in the meta.

This also might be an unpopular opinion on these forums but I do think air is in a really tough spot. Unless you are critical mass there is simply no hope in air units. They were decent in the marauder meta where a few banshees could turn the tide, but this is the UNSC/hog meta where banshees get smoked instantly. Not saying buff air or anything, but maybe down the line if they continue to under-perform after this patch.

Agreed with most of this. However, I am always against buffing damage resistance and damage in the same patch. If history of HW2 holds, that will mean that unit becomes instantly OP (see Mauraders a few patches ago) I also want a return to the usability of Anti- infantry. I miss the days of an army of snipers on a ledge sniping down and army of approaching cyclops/hunters. This would also go a long way to dealing with leaders late game (cough Pavium cough). As for air, their maneuverability and offensive potential remain extremely strong, however they are basically useless on defense and smart players who target the person producing air, preventing critical mass, early makes any air basically worthless. Yet, I actually think air is fine due to its incredible effectiveness in mass but it is certainly a risky play. To me air is like locusts, in most situations it's not smart to go air as soon as you get T2 but instead to start with something else and quickly transition so your opponent does not have a chance to counter.

FungusUCantKill wrote:

Viper Skills wrote:

I'm torn on air right now. I still find air useful in teams and solo games.
But, I wouldn't mind if core air did better damage to core vehicles, and slightly less to buildings. For UNSC, air might be the best way to break a base (other than hogs), but the mobility of air in team games is really what inspires all of those "air op" people. Vultures should wreck bases, but maybe hornets should only wreck vehicles.
Maybe air's base damage should stay the same. But, I'd almost rather AV infantry (less mobility) do more base damage and core air (all the mobility) do less.
This isn't the thread for that discussion though, I guess.

Having anti units do base damage will see a return to only counter armies and making core vehicles useless like in previous seasons. Anti units should be very proficient at their specific role and that it. Certainly don't need a building damage buff IMO

AssimilateTh1s wrote:

Viper Skills wrote:

I actually like the core vehicle meta but I would like it to turn into a core UNIT meta. Meaning, infantry needs a place and right now the only thing infantry is good for is node control and a soft counter to air. Ideally, I would like a progression in intensity. T1, T2, and finally T3 with Wraiths and Scorpions. Those need to become useful and relevant.

AV will need a buff regardless, though. They simply don't get a return on their investment and even if you do manage to get enough of them out to do damage they WILL fall off against skilled players. Not "might fall off" but WILL. Once the enemy gets gauss/thick hide and vehicle upgrades (things they can afford to get because they aren't spending power) you will lose. Not to mention leader powers, most of which cost power in some capacity.

To echo many players here, I don't want to see core vehicles become useless again. I want to see counter units actually getting the job done and I think there are multiple avenues of approach here. Buffing damage is one possibility but I think buffing damage resistance is important too. Maybe not both at the same time, depending on the values. But it would force the person going hogs to build anti-infantry, giving snipers and rangers a place in the meta.

This also might be an unpopular opinion on these forums but I do think air is in a really tough spot. Unless you are critical mass there is simply no hope in air units. They were decent in the marauder meta where a few banshees could turn the tide, but this is the UNSC/hog meta where banshees get smoked instantly. Not saying buff air or anything, but maybe down the line if they continue to under-perform after this patch.

Agreed with most of this. However, I am always against buffing damage resistance and damage in the same patch. If history of HW2 holds, that will mean that unit becomes instantly OP (see Mauraders a few patches ago) I also want a return to the usability of Anti- infantry. I miss the days of an army of snipers on a ledge sniping down and army of approaching cyclops/hunters. This would also go a long way to dealing with leaders late game (cough Pavium cough). As for air, their maneuverability and offensive potential remain extremely strong, however they are basically useless on defense and smart players who target the person producing air, preventing critical mass, early makes any air basically worthless. Yet, I actually think air is fine due to its incredible effectiveness in mass but it is certainly a risky play. To me air is like locusts, in most situations it's not smart to go air as soon as you get T2 but instead to start with something else and quickly transition so your opponent does not have a chance to counter.

I agree. I'd prefer they didn't do it in the same patch. Their history of over-tuning has me worried about next season. I hope I'm wrong this time around but I can just see Cutter becoming the only leader worth playing again.

There’s nothing wrong with hogs. Leave them be