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[Locked] HW2 Spartan Power-level Inconsistent?

OP total war1402

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NxtDutch wrote:
Also, if you were paying attention he was wearing an exo suit. Similar to a Spartans (Hell, some of it does have Spartan resemblance, so perhaps he enjoyed some spoils of war from fallen Spartans). Which enhances his already remarkable strength, and speed.
Source? Where is it stated Atriox wears an exo suit? He has a gauntlet, not a full exo suit like Decimus.
Can you not look it up yourself? I find it odd when people ask for sources online. You are on either a phone, tablet or computer. Open a new window and search it yourself.

But I will be kind, and link it for you.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Atriox

Read his equipment, which is a combination of Jiralhanae Power Armor, UNSC parts as well. And yes his gauntlet.
NxtDutch wrote:
Can you not look it up yourself? I find it odd when people ask for sources online. You are on either a phone, tablet or computer. Open a new window and search it yourself.

But I will be kind, and link it for you.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Atriox

Read his equipment, which is a combination of Jiralhanae Power Armor, UNSC parts as well. And yes his gauntlet.
There isn't a source given by the wiki, if you click "Jiralhanae Power Armor" its just a link describing the basic armor worn by Brutes in Halo 3. Which explains that its just there to deflect armor and provide basic protection. Theres no mention of strength enhacing properties or it being a Mjolnir equivalent.

Beyond saying its customized, which could mean anything, theres nothing to suggest he is wearing a powered exosuit. If he was then why stress that his gauntlet has those properties?
Ooops! I forgot to paste the 2nd link! Now I have wasted 2 posts for the day. Ugh

https://www.halopedia.org/Atriox

That was also supposed to give you 2 links with information regarding Atriox. Ya know, check all sources, etc. It does enhance his strength, and speed.

Again, Atriox is not your average Jiralhanae. 343i expressed this in several ViDocs and interviews. And his armor is BA
NxtDutch wrote:
Ooops! I forgot to paste the 2nd link! Now I have wasted 2 posts for the day. Ugh

https://www.halopedia.org/Atriox

That was also supposed to give you 2 links with information regarding Atriox. Ya know, check all sources, etc. It does enhance his strength, and speed.

Again, Atriox is not your average Jiralhanae. 343i expressed this in several ViDocs and interviews. And his armor is BA
"Equipment
Atriox wears signature, unique black and white combat armor of partially United Nations Space Command origin[27] made from various pieces, including an ODST chestplate. He dons an augmented power gauntlet which artificially enhances his strength to a significant degree. He wields a customized energy mace called Chainbreaker, which he created from parts of a Type-2 gravity hammer.[28] "

The equipment section just says the armor is customized and mentions the power gauntlet.

The point is that you have to look at what a fireteam of Spartans can do in the other cutscenes and in the games. Then, you need to ask, has 343 done enough to convince me this Brute could effortlessly beat 3 Spartan 2. Which BTW is something a 15 foot vortex spitting terminator struggles to do. How can they wreck something like the Warden Eternal but get wrecked by Atriox? You have to appreciate that we're talking about 3 Spartan 2's here. But my point is that it doesn't really make much sense or feel consistent with how Spartans are usually depicted vis a vis their enemies. I mean the Warden is a threat, but he doesn't effortlessly beat them.

Its also a problem because it creates a precedent. If Atriox can beat three Spartans then you can't have Atriox unable to beat things that can't beat three Spartans. So, for example, the Prometheans show up and Atriox doesn't solo the Warden Eternal but has some help doing it. That would be inconsistent. Also, if you then wanted to flip things around and have a single Spartan like Chief kill Atriox then you would have to be able to justify that.

Even if you aren't a normal Brute you aren't fighting normal humans. Much less three of them.
So we see Atriox wreck three Spartans by himself at the same time. Now, in a later cutscene we see one Spartan effortlessly take down 5 elites and later a dozen brutes armed with gravity hammers. He beats them by being faster and as strong as the Brutes, notice how he dodges a gravity hammer and manages to pull one brute by grabbing its open jaw. So the strength difference isn't that extreme. The shotgun pellets also pierce the Brutes bulky plate armor.

So how does the fight with Atriox make any sense?

We see three Spartans gun fire bounch off Atriox despite all other cutscenes showing the bullets go clean through the plate and Atriox doesn't flash to indicate he is wearing an energy shield. If a knife can pierce his hide, then why wouldn't a gunshot? Plus, Atriox is shown as being faster than Red Team. How? If he is just a normal Brute then how would he be quicker than a normal brute. When Jerome fights them, they are virtually moving in slow motion and he can run rings around them. How can an unaugmented Brute be that much better? Hes also shown as obscenely strong. He kicks a fully armoured Spartan away, punchs another across a room and was able to restrain Alice picking her up with one arm. If all Brutes are this strong then how come Jerome can wreck house with a dozen Chieftains with similar equipment.
"So does a gravity hammer. This hasn't helped brutes when they fought Spartans before because they couldn't hit them. Why should it be different now."

I don't understand what you're responding to.

Also....
"In the cutscene on the carrier where Jerome shoots a shotgun and it cuts clean through the Banished soldier he is fighting. Or when he uses two shots of his pistol to kill an elite. But when they fight Atriox the guns just magically stop working."

Because his armor is made of a more resistant alloy, befitting of his status as the Banished leader.
Well I'll break it down for you since you can't work it out for yourself. A gravity hammer increases the force of a brutes melee attacks. Functionally it is exactly the same as having a power gauntlet. In fact, the hammer is more powerful since it should be able to kill a Spartan if it connects with him. So saying "Atriox has something that boosts his strength so can beat Spartans" doesn't add up because Jerome can kill a dozen brutes with weapons that enhance their strength.

Yet a Knife is able to pierce this armor...

Spartan armor is also more resistant and they're supposed to have energy shields. How can this armor withstand falling from space but not a power gauntlet or him punching them?
You seem to be ignoring the fact that using one's own body, laced with a power gauntlet, is going to be more accurate and swift (generally) than using an extension, like a gravity hammer.

Douglas was closer and able to insert the knife in a section that wasn't heavily armored, meant for articulation, rather than shooting at a darkly-lit, fast-moving object.

Mark IV is not supposed to have shields, the shields are just there for gameplay purposes and are explained away as being "experimental" in canon. I suppose the reason Jerome survived falling from high up in the atmosphere is due to his retroactively-given thruster pack.
OP, I can kind of see where you're coming from but when you said "Atriox has led a pampered life in comparison [to the Spartans]" it seems to me like you're purposely ignoring what everyone else is saying just so you can "have a point."

Atriox isn't normal and going through boot camp (even for Spartans) is nothing compared to being sent on suicide missions over and over. That shouldn't even need explaining.
NxtDutch wrote:
Ooops! I forgot to paste the 2nd link! Now I have wasted 2 posts for the day. Ugh

https://www.halopedia.org/Atriox

That was also supposed to give you 2 links with information regarding Atriox. Ya know, check all sources, etc. It does enhance his strength, and speed.

Again, Atriox is not your average Jiralhanae. 343i expressed this in several ViDocs and interviews. And his armor is BA
"Equipment
Atriox wears signature, unique black and white combat armor of partially United Nations Space Command origin[27] made from various pieces, including an ODST chestplate. He dons an augmented power gauntlet which artificially enhances his strength to a significant degree. He wields a customized energy mace called Chainbreaker, which he created from parts of a Type-2 gravity hammer.[28] "

The equipment section just says the armor is customized and mentions the power gauntlet.

The point is that you have to look at what a fireteam of Spartans can do in the other cutscenes and in the games. Then, you need to ask, has 343 done enough to convince me this Brute could effortlessly beat 3 Spartan 2. Which BTW is something a 15 foot wormhole spitting terminator struggles to do. How can they wreck something like the Warden Eternal but get wrecked by Atriox? You have to appreciate that we're talking about 3 Spartan 2's here. But my point is that it doesn't really make much sense or feel consistent with how Spartans are usually depicted vis a vis their enemies. I mean the Warden is a threat, but he doesn't effortlessly beat them.

Its also a problem because it creates a precedent. If Atriox can beat three Spartans then you can't have Atriox unable to beat things that can't beat three Spartans. So, for example, the Prometheans show up and Atriox doesn't solo the Warden Eternal but has some help doing it. That would be inconsistent. Also, if you then wanted to flip things around and have a single Spartan like Chief kill Atriox then you would have to be able to justify that.

Even if you aren't a normal Brute you aren't fighting normal humans. Much less three of them.
I get what you are trying to do. You are being too literal. And also making an error. You are forgetting, NOT every human is created equal. (Bungie, and 343i did a very good job explaining this in the lore and novels). Which means not all Spartan II's are created equal. The program enhances your natural abilities significantly. Then the armor enhances it further. (Case in point, as children Michael Jordan, Mike Tyson, Barry Sanders and you enter Spartan II program.) Your natural potentials are different. Thus, results vary. Alice, Douglas, and Jerome are not Master Chief. They are not Blue Team.

1 on 1, or hell maybe even 2 v 1 John-117 beats them all. He is the only Spartan classified as hyper lethal. John was the "perfect human". (There was only one other designated as hyper lethal. Your character in Halo: Reach).

Atriox is a BA man. Enhanced, furthers this point. No need to reach for straws. Your mind is already made up. So perhaps I wasted another post.
Numot15 wrote:
Numot15 wrote:
Did you not pay any attention to Isabel telling you about him. He is not "just a brute" he is stronger, faster, smarter. They sent 40 of his clan in as expendable units every battle, none ever came back until he did. Then he watches his clan die 39 at time because he always made it back. He is not "just a brute" that's why. Seeing as he commands all the banished and he is not just a brute one can assume he is not wearing the same quality armor of over brutes either, I mean Decimus armor is an exoskeleton suit so. Really pay attention to the whole campaign
We assume the faster and stronger part due to him being only one to live countless times. The smarter part is documented in the game, every review and preview of the game and any time they have talked about the leader of the new Banished faction. He is more intelligent than other brutes, this is not assumed this is stated fact by the game itself and it's designers
Spartans are really accurate, if most of Atriox wasn't armoured then why didn't any bullets hit his less armoured body parts?

They fight Brutes during a mission in Halo Wars 1.

So should the brutes Jerome effortlessly killed and they didn't seem inexperienced when they fought against the Elites in the first HW.

This isn't the Aliens franchise. Chief woke up from cryo and was able to fight fine twice in the game. Theres never been any insinuation that cryo has the same negative effects we see in Alien and Serina even remarks that "cryo worked well". If Cutter thought Red Team were ill from their travel then he wouldn't have deployed them. Plus there isn't any dialogue that vouches your theory.

But those are Chieftains as indicated by their gravity hammers.

We see the Chief wreck a Chieftain in the Halo 4 intro. You're talking about 3 Spartan 2's against 1 Brute.
Because hitting a target up close, when you've been surprised and you're used to their plate being about 30 years less advanced then it was when you left is a big ask. Yeah they fight regular brutes, once, with heavy marine and hellbringer support and an elephant...before being attacked by flood. A normal brute doesn't die to a few br bursts, you think Atriox would?

No, they don't. They're still Spartan's, simply less experienced then other SIIs.

Forget aliens, you ever read The Flood or watched forward unto dawn? Both show cryo can cause discomfort and confusion, although Lasky in the later obviously suffers much worse then normal.

Yes, and Atriox has one of those hammer, if you pay attention. It's got an energy sword attached sure, but it is one.

The chief, who had been fighting for 30 years? There is a big, big diffience between taking down a big baddie after a big fight to warm you up and make you alert (but before you pass your peak and become tired) and being surprise attacked from behind. Also, generally speaking, brutes are stronger then SII's in close combat, shown in Halo First Strike. Skill helps, but Brutes are named aptly. They are much stronger then the average species, other then hunters who technically cheat by being lots of small creatures tied together.

Seriously, put Halo 3 up to Legendary, take a brute chieftain and fire a few BR bursts at him and a few magnum shots, then punch him. Not dead is he? Atriox is the strongest known Brute.
In the final cutscene we see the Brutes taking cover from a few battle rifle equipped marines and generally speaking the UNSC weapons seem to one shot the Brutes/Elites in Blur cutscenes. For much the same reason Buckes light rifle caps an elite, Blur tends to go with what seems the most dramatic or visually appealing rather than base it off the game. So no flashing energy shields and weapons that instantly drop enemies like Stormtroopers. The problem is when they are inconsistent like they are with Atriox when suddenly these rules stop applying and the scene's logic shuts down.

They're still Spartans. They have been trained from infancy to be warriors, cut up and remade into demi gods. Atriox has led a pampered life by comparison. I could believe that a Brute could beat ONE Spartan 2, but not three of them at once. Even the Didact struggles with Blue Team and he is a Forerunner with all their space magic stuff. Or the Warden Eternal who gets repeatedly beaten by groups of Spartans despite being a 15 foot death machine who shoots wormholes at you. This depiction doesn't tie up to other fights which depict a team of Spartans being able to take down much more powerful villains. I mean, go on Warzone Mythic, hit the Warden with a few gravity hammer blows and punch him a few times; the Wardens still there.... So how can Spartans beat something (often more than one) like that but get owned in 30 seconds by Atriox?

Did not know that bout the cryo. But then it seems out of character for Cutter to send them in with cryo sickness and Serina's comments that the cryo worked well. Plus there isn't a reference to them actually being rusty. The scene is depicted as Atriox beating a full strength Red Team and this matches Dev comments.

Also, what were Red Team doing whilst Douglas wrestled with Atriox? Why didn't one of them jump him from behind or shoot him in the back? Theres a ten second segment where he is crushing his shoulder where either of them could have leapt in. I also don't understand their weapon configuration considering Alice is always shown using a chaingun, Jerome a Laser and Douglas a missile launcher. Shotguns and SMG's seem more appropriate for the close quarters mission too.
Actually Atriox has had it harder then a 2, the UNSC actually valued their lives unlike the Covenant take on him and his clan. "40 by 40". The didact rofl stomped the chief, cortana beat him really.

Don't get me started on yoinking warden. That was dumb from start to finish.

Cryo sickness isn't usually a big deal, but against a big bad against Atriox you want to be a full capacity. Red team more likely wasn't, they at least partially felt the long cryo. "It feels good to be back on solid ground". It heavily impies in mission 1 they are abit rough.

While in campaign that's the case, with Spartans starting heavily armed but the SMG and BR's they go in is more likely their standard fare.

I personally feel your point with why didn't they help Douglas. Shock perhaps? First time being beaten? It didn't make a great deal of sense.
You gotta remember, Jerome didn't get to fire the shotgun at him, it was pointed away before he could shoot at Atriox, not only that brutes don't really think. They rely on brute force, Atriox doesn't just rely on brute force.
It might be dumb but it still happened. If four Spartans can destroy the Warden (repeatedly) then how does that square with Atriox getting 3 of them?

If they set Atriox at that level it will be very difficult to stay consistent in future cutscenes. It means he's as effective as a squad of Spartans. By this logic he should have been able to take all those sword elites that had him surrounded in the opening cutscene of him. Iam just saying, if they do a cutscene where Jerome solo's him then that will be very silly if they've set him at that level.
It might be dumb but it still happened. If four Spartans can destroy the Warden (repeatedly) then how does that square with Atriox getting 3 of them?

If they set Atriox at that level it will be very difficult to stay consistent in future cutscenes. It means he's as effective as a squad of Spartans. By this logic he should have been able to take all those sword elites that had him surrounded in the opening cutscene of him. Iam just saying, if they do a cutscene where Jerome solo's him then that will be very silly if they've set him at that level.
I already explained how that could happen. But you are being hard headed, and complaining for the sake of complaining. Just because this doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to the rest of us. As you can see here, it looks like you are pretty much the only one that can not comprehend the scenario.
It might be dumb but it still happened. If four Spartans can destroy the Warden (repeatedly) then how does that square with Atriox getting 3 of them?

If they set Atriox at that level it will be very difficult to stay consistent in future cutscenes. It means he's as effective as a squad of Spartans. By this logic he should have been able to take all those sword elites that had him surrounded in the opening cutscene of him. Iam just saying, if they do a cutscene where Jerome solo's him then that will be very silly if they've set him at that level.
You literally are reading nothing anyone posts and are just ignoring it all. This has all already been explained by the facts you continue to ignore. Try some reading comprehension
Oh Iam reading what you're saying, I just think you're wrong.

A Spartan fire team shouldn't be beaten by one Brute. It took a half dozen elites with swords to bring down a wounded Noble 6. This is a case of 343 over selling their villain because they weren't happy with a Brute over powering 1 Spartan 2; itself unprecedented in the games. If the fight actually represented S2 properly then he would not have been able able to ambush them, they would have used their speed advantage to dodge his clumsy attacks and shot him to pieces with their battle rifles instead of running at him with a knife. Whilst the other two sit at the back watching as he monologues instead of shooting him the head and killing the helmet less idiot.
OP keeps referencing the warden eternal and a squad of spartans taking him out. Not sure how your playthrough went but my "squad" was always dead or in respawn. The MC solo'ed those -Yoinks!- imo. :) He is the exception most certainly not the rule.
It has been a long while since I have read the books but weren't the brutes described as being a formidable opponent for the Spartans? So a MC level brute would be a huge pain in the rear, right?
Not to the point of beating three Spartan 2. A master chief level Brute should be as good as a Spartan 2. Not 3 of them at the same time.

In canon nobody actually dies to the Warden. They wreck him every time. Meaning Atriox could beat the Warden in a fight.
I think a lot of confusion here rises from the misunderstanding that not all Spartans are created equal. For example, only Noble Six and John-117 were ever classified as hyper-lethal, so using them as the standard for every Spartan is incorrect.
But Jerome and the other Red Team members have always been portrayed as being Chief Mark 2. Includig pairing him with an AI and blowing a carrier up. We re given no reason to assume this is the B Team. They really are saying Atriox could kill 3 Spartans 2's who are in the same league as the Chief.
When fighting the Warden Eternal, Blue Team has far more advanced Mjolnir armor which enhances their speed, strength, reaction time more than Mk IV and has energy shielding. Blue team has also been active during the entire Covenant war and have far more experience and better technology.

In First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx the Spartan IIs struggle against regular (non-Chieftain/top tier brutes with power armor) Jiralhanae. So yeah, there's actually lore showing that Brutes can go toe-to-toe with Spartan IIs in more advanced Mjolnir than Red Team. Not to mention Red Team doesn't have shielding since they're wearing obsolete Mjolnir Mk IV armor.

So yeah.. You're pretty wrong.

On topic of not all created equally.. Blue team was made up of the best Spartans from the program. Kelly was the fastest by a long shot, Linda was the best sniper, John came out on top because he had luck and Fred was mentioned by John to have come in second place in basically everything, but that he could have been first if he wanted (so Fred was probably the best Spartan II).
But they have shields. You see them using it in game...
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