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Mid-Season 10 balance patch prep thread

OP Postums

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make Voridus y ability cataclysmic instead of just gel, or allow him to ignite existing gel with y ability ( not mass cat, just what he initially hit)

scorpions feel tough but can't pack a punch, i feel marines do more damage to buildings than them

anders protector sentinel seems like it couldn't fight it's way out of a brown paper bag, i'm not sure if this is an existing problem

the hunter captain feels like his beam is hitting terrain before it hits a marine, he just can't kill them, his y ability and being a bullet sponge are his only uses imo.
Top of the morning to you.

Here's my input.
Quote:
Cleansing Beam is too strong vs buildings.
Yes, 100 times yes. Leader powers killing buildings with little to no counter play is a very, very bad thing, especially when this ability is unlocked 3rd/4th point. Additionally, the speed of Glassing Beam could potentially be brought down slightly; it can be difficult to split out of with how fast it is. Reducing the speed is not needed, but I wouldn't be against it.
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Air is no longer OP but in a solid spot vs AA.
Yes, please do not nerf air anymore; I enjoy it being viable. AA damage towards AV needs to lowered drastically, though I suggest looking into that ASAP.
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Jackrabbits still are not strong enough vs all forms of infantry besides core.
Yeah, JR's are still a meme. For there cost, it's not even worth building them. Even when affected by passives, they're meh. I recommend looking into JR's splash damage again, or increasing their damage substantially towards rush infantry. I want to be able to "snipe" out rush units from an infantry ball, and I currently cannot do this.
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Marines are a bit too strong early game.
I don't think its their strength early game (T1) that is a problem, as much as their mid game strength (T2 - Combat Tech) is a problem. In most games, I feel confident making solely Marines against just about everything once I have Combat Tech researched. Fighting tanks with Marines should not be a thing.
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Anti-Vehicle isn’t anti vehicle enough in some engagements.
Hunters feel perfect where they are. They are doing everything they should be, IMO. However, Cyclops are horrendous; 95% of the time, it's a better idea to use CT Marines instead of Cyclops to fight vehicles. Cyclops really only become useful when they have Shock Rounds researched and are supported by a blob of Nightingales; before this, just don't even bother with them.

PS; pls give AV some base damage.

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Warthogs still need some love.
Warthogs are in an excellent place. The only area I feel they are lacking is against CT Marines. However, nerfing CT Marines may rectify this situation and a change may not be needed (on the Warthog side of things).

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Tanks and T3 Air need more building damage.
Yes, please. For how slow and expensive these units are, they should do more than tickle base. I would also like to see T3 air counter tanks more effectively, as well.

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Rangers are still too weak.
Without a doubt. Not worth their cost, hilarious compared to Snipers, and only strong when massed. Definitely need some love.

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Grunt mines and Countermeasure Brute Mines investigation to reduce damage vs vehicles including scouts.
I have always felt Grunt Mines countered scouts well, and the interaction felt solid, but I may be missing something. EDIT: tested this out a bit, yes, Grunt Mines could be toned downed down a whisker VS scouts. The buff on Grunts tipped this a little bit too far in the Grunts favour. As for countermeasures, yes, it should not do so well against scouts. Even with the recent nerf to Countermeasures, I still feel confident fighting scouts with Jump Brutes.

If there are any questions/concerns, I will gladly record some gameplay showcasing exactly what I am talking about.

I will add to this as things come to mind

  1. For the love of all that is holy, please nerf Siege Turrets. Being able to fight entire armies with them is not okay.
I agree with nearly everything in this post.

I would add...
1.Hero units in general are too hard to kill (and many were so before the patch), especially for the banished. I played a level that I don't pay very often against a very experienced player. He/she immediately ran a spartan to a garrison that was near my base that didn't notice was there. I could not kill him. I made another base and brought an army to attack him and we still couldn't get him out because his line of sight allowed him to kill my troops and turret before anything could get close enough to kill him. Once he leveled up, it was over. Couple that with the Siege turret that was shooting my troops as they came out because of his line of sight, and we could do nothing.

-Decimus' hero units are entirely too strong. Nearly every match I played had Decimus and we couldn't kill him. Once he got the dropped unit to level 2, we could barely move his power.

2. Can we please tone down the glassing beam and show love to the Hunter's brand? The Hunters brand should have the strength you gave the glassing beam because it is virtually useless. You can't move it and by it's nature you can't make it hit all of the units in the area, so it should be max power.
The glassing beam shouldn't have gotten 2 major boosts (speed and damage). You never boost multiple things when looking for balance. Multiple boosts almost always guarantees overpowering.

3. Tanks seem to be better but they are still not strong enough, and i personally can't tell the if anything was done to wraiths. they are still very mediocre to me. I think they are the worst Banished unit outside of scouts.

4. Wolverines are still too weak defensively against air. Air can generally take Wolverines out before the wolverines can take air out. I haven't tested this much with Reavers yet.

You mentioned jackrabbits not being strong enough... Strong enough to do what? They are scout units. Do you mean strong enough to rush?

But I love the majority of changes so far, especially the grunts and infantry in general, but in particular against air. Grunts are no longer useless but they also aren't spammed... so far. They seem great so far.
Agree with several of these postums, though with rangers would love for the 4- sangheili squad from Yappening to return. They felt balanced fighting snipers or large infantry groups. Also curious, you say the glassing beam is too strong vs bases. Shouldn't that be the case?
From what I’ve seen in matches I’ve played, I can give you some feedback. First, Voridus is almost impossible to counter early game right now. His mine upgraded twice can wipe out an entire infantry army for almost no cost. This mine, plus the grenadier drop that also spawns infusion, plus his leader and engineers that spawn infusion, make early engagements infuriating. In threes, this strategy coupled its grunt/marine spam and a pavium abusing burnout is incredibly difficult to counter. We tried everything we could think of, but their low cost advantage early game made it easier for them to expand uncontested while making it to tech 2 quickly due to burnout spam. Additionally, it seems that other people think air is in a good spot, which I somewhat agree with, but I’ve found that banshees are still a little too good. This is mainly because of how quick they are to build, their speed, and cost effectiveness. AA can stand up air in a fight now, but trying to keep up with air armies is impossible with how the terrain on most maps force you to drive all around cliffs and buildings and what not. So basically, we need an AA option that can actually keep up with air to a certain extent, because as a unsc player, banshees can easily strip your base while you’re busy with an engagement. Even if you know they are coming, it can be difficult to get back in time to defend it. Lastly, I wanted to mention the concern I have between hornets and banshees. I don’t know the exact numbers, but banshees still have great base damage even in smaller numbers due to their fuel rod. Hornets however don’t have any other ability until their wingmen ability at tech three. Thus, I found it difficult as unsc to fight air with air because of how cheap and deadly the banshees were+their building damage. Once they get their plasma torpedo upgrade, their is almost nothing you can do air wise to counter that.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Agree with several of these postums, though with rangers would love for the 4- sangheili squad from Yappening to return. They felt balanced fighting snipers or large infantry groups. Also curious, you say the glassing beam is too strong vs bases. Shouldn't that be the case?
Not in the way it currently is. If you can snipe two buildings with a level one LP something is wrong
Cyclops need a lot of help. Hunters and hogs are fine. Redo the reaver thing so they can’t kill everything, just air stuff.
voridus hero unit needs to respond better he doesn't listen when you use the y ability half the time and honestly still needs buffs
Please .. Please adjust the win/loss percentage. Just played 5 matches, got 5 points. Won all of them. Lower the max loss percentage and maybe add some type of multiplier if you are winning match after match. Takes too long to get to the top. Last request, cross play only, get rid of x war. Thanks
I know this is kinda out of left field, but I think that Johnson mantis's need a bit of a nerf in some areas, they are too good against everything in mass to the point of being unstoppable with how cheap they are. I think a small nerf against bases and a smaller one against air would work, They should definitely do well against infantry and ok against vehicles, but right now they seem to good at everything. Again, from my experience so far, they seem to effective in mass.

Like the mantis, I think Serina frost ravens need a little look too. Though not really an issue for being an air unit, I think their frost beams are too effective in mass. Similar to the mantis, if spammed, they are very hard to counter, especially when they also do damage to the units while freezing them. I feel like they should either do less damage to the units or none at all. Again, this is from what I have experienced so far in MM.

These are just my opinions of the game, I am in no way a "top tier" player, far from, but on a general MM level, I am noticing a pattern in how people are play, especially seeing that hornets still are viable as a spam unit against any other unit minus spamming AA.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Agree with several of these postums, though with rangers would love for the 4- sangheili squad from Yappening to return. They felt balanced fighting snipers or large infantry groups. Also curious, you say the glassing beam is too strong vs bases. Shouldn't that be the case?
Not in the way it currently is. If you can snipe two buildings with a level one LP something is wrong
Ah ok, thought it was the upgraded version, my bad.
Postums wrote:
  1. Marines are a bit too strong early game.
Really? In what regard? Specifically what has lead you to this conclusion. Right now, barring a few niggles everything seems to be a pretty good spot with the core units, I've been really enjoying the way marines are now, please don't overreact because I haven't heard any complaints so far on Marines and the early game is really fun to play at the moment.
Cleansing beam has always kinda beam the runt of the litter in terms of tier 3 leader powers. But the current changes are too much. The improved damage puts it on a more-or-less equal footing with other tier 3 leader powers, however the speed and duration will need to be adjusted to make it as hit-and-miss as other tier 3 powers. Even with good splits you can be sure a lot of units are going to bite the dust, whereas archer missiles et al. have a decent chance of being avoided entirely.

JRs definitely need a waaay more generous boost vs flamers in particular. I had to bring my grenade marine army over to defend a flame rush against a team mate going JRs!

Warthogs are actually fine ... its more cyclopes that need the love actually.

Another thing worth bringing up in addition is the Voridus goo duration, that stuff lasts way too long in my opinion, and the Maelstrom-Cataclysm combo is just too strong and too hard to avoid.
Postums wrote:
  1. Cleansing Beam is too strong vs buildings.
  2. Air is no longer OP but in a solid spot vs AA.
  3. Jackrabbits still are not strong enough vs all forms of infantry besides core.
  4. Marines are a bit too strong early game.
  5. Anti-Vehicle isn’t anti vehicle enough in some engagements.
  6. Wathogs still need some love.
  7. Tanks and T3 Air need more building damage.
  8. Rangers are still too weak.
  9. Grunt mines and Countermeasure Brute Mines investigation to reduce damage vs vehicles including scouts.
1. I agree with the majority. As for damage vs units, it is strong, but rightfully so in my opinion. Maybe a minimal nerf (125% to 112%) to the center damage would do, but nothing crazy.
2. I agree, it is pretty balanced now.
3. If this is the actual case, then a slight balance would be great.
4. I myself have not noticed this, but further investigation might change my mind.
5. Hunters are fine, but Cyclops need some help in some way. Maybe a (slight) health boost?
6. I think Warthogs are in a pretty comfortable place. Is there something specific they are falling victim to?
7. Tanks might need help, but T3 air I am not so sure about. Vultures already have the phoenix missile which performs excellently. Blisterbacks do their job as well.
8. Rangers need some sort of upgrade option. Maybe an extra elite added to the squad or perhaps a shield.
9. I haven't seen this encounter enough to know, but if its a serious concern, a fix would be good.
Scootman2 wrote:
I feel this way... air wasnt OP, deci boundless siphon was, and the changes made to it have 'helped' along with the AA survivability change. Im afraid air is going to become less viable now in 1s because of the building damage changes now.
This is why... air has been one of the only reliable ways to break bases late game, but with the changes i dont think there is enough damage potential there.
This is also why I agree that we need T3 to hit harder to be able to have more options to break bases, then air not playing a base breaking role wouldnt be that big of a deal.
Good notes Post, maybe you can make some room for that bunker price drop in there 😉
Siege should break bases. Not air. Air is fast for raiding. Kodiaks need to have more range and more dmg then siege towers. Blisterbacks need +50% range.

Remember Warcraft 3? Air was -Yoinked!- by towers too.. but catapults kick any buildings in seconds.
I have never seen such -Yoinked!- up siege units like kodiacs and blisterbacks in any RTS game since 2000.
Compare it with human siege tanks @ Starcraft 2, i would take them any time over kodiacs.. they smash any base fast.
Locus @release have been too strong, but only because they had full dmg while walking against everything with too much range.
Scootman2 wrote:
I feel this way... air wasnt OP, deci boundless siphon was, and the changes made to it have 'helped' along with the AA survivability change. Im afraid air is going to become less viable now in 1s because of the building damage changes now.
This is why... air has been one of the only reliable ways to break bases late game, but with the changes i dont think there is enough damage potential there.
This is also why I agree that we need T3 to hit harder to be able to have more options to break bases, then air not playing a base breaking role wouldnt be that big of a deal.
Good notes Post, maybe you can make some room for that bunker price drop in there 😉
Siege should break bases. Not air. Air is fast for raiding. Kodiaks need to have more range and more dmg then siege towers. Blisterbacks need +50% range.

Remember Warcraft 3? Air was -Yoinked!- by towers too.. but catapults kick any buildings in seconds.
I have never seen such -Yoinked!- up siege units like kodiacs and blisterbacks in any RTS game since 2000.
Compare it with human siege tanks @ Starcraft 2, i would take them any time over kodiacs.. they smash any base fast.
Locus @release have been too strong, but only because they had full dmg while walking against everything with too much range.
Going out on a limb and guessing the reason siege are like this would be that you could easily mass them and hit the base before the defender even has a chance. While scouting would likely prevent that from happening that could be more difficult in 2v2 and 3v3.
Despite the things you noted, Marauders could use an Armor buff towards base infantry. Had an Anders with CT marines walk through my equal pop marauder army. Curious to see if others agree with this concept
BtC Slick wrote:
Despite the things you noted, Marauders could use an Armor buff towards base infantry. Had an Anders with CT marines walk through my equal pop marauder army. Curious to see if others agree with this concept
I think the primary issue is CT Marines, because currently they walk through Hogs as well. In addition to Rangers and other units meant to counter them.
BtC Slick wrote:
Despite the things you noted, Marauders could use an Armor buff towards base infantry. Had an Anders with CT marines walk through my equal pop marauder army. Curious to see if others agree with this concept
I think the primary issue is CT Marines, because currently they walk through Hogs as well. In addition to Rangers and other units meant to counter them.
Hopefully that Marine tweak Post mentioned in the OP would globally affect Marine DPS. Infantry metas aren't always the best metas
BtC Slick wrote:
BtC Slick wrote:
Despite the things you noted, Marauders could use an Armor buff towards base infantry. Had an Anders with CT marines walk through my equal pop marauder army. Curious to see if others agree with this concept
I think the primary issue is CT Marines, because currently they walk through Hogs as well. In addition to Rangers and other units meant to counter them.
Hopefully that Marine tweak Post mentioned in the OP would globally affect Marine DPS. Infantry metas aren't always the best metas
Especially because Marines are just the best infantry hands down.
Postums wrote:
  1. Cleansing Beam is too strong vs buildings.
  2. Air is no longer OP but in a solid spot vs AA.
  3. Jackrabbits still are not strong enough vs all forms of infantry besides core.
  4. Marines are a bit too strong early game.
  5. Anti-Vehicle isn’t anti vehicle enough in some engagements.
  6. Wathogs still need some love.
  7. Tanks and T3 Air need more building damage.
  8. Rangers are still too weak.
  9. Grunt mines and Countermeasure Brute Mines investigation to reduce damage vs vehicles including scouts.
1. I agree with the majority. As for damage vs units, it is strong, but rightfully so in my opinion. Maybe a minimal nerf (125% to 112%) to the center damage would do, but nothing crazy.
2. I agree, it is pretty balanced now.
3. If this is the actual case, then a slight balance would be great.
4. I myself have not noticed this, but further investigation might change my mind.
5. Hunters are fine, but Cyclops need some help in some way. Maybe a (slight) health boost?
6. I think Warthogs are in a pretty comfortable place. Is there something specific they are falling victim to?
7. Tanks might need help, but T3 air I am not so sure about. Vultures already have the phoenix missile which performs excellently. Blisterbacks do their job as well.
8. Rangers need some sort of upgrade option. Maybe an extra elite added to the squad or perhaps a shield.
9. I haven't seen this encounter enough to know, but if its a serious concern, a fix would be good.
For 5, I'm pretty sure he means air vs vehicles too, not "anti-vehicle infantry units" alone. I think a slight 5% (don't wanna go overboard) air vs vehicle damage multiplier buff would be decent. They damage they do right now isn't good, but it's not downright terrible either.

Weren't Cyclops and Hunters pretty oppressive to vehicles at some point? They're in a good spot right now imo. A squad of them can noticeably chunk tanks, but they can't 1v1 vehicles, as they're infantry, and should be taking more damage (this is good). And I really don't think that Cyclops need a buff, even though I primarily play UNSC, and would love free buffs. Their on-hit slow upgrade is really good for making picks on vehicles. If you get hit by them, chances of escaping are non-existent.

Edit: IIRC the "anti-vehicle infantry units" have a decent health pool too, or the Hunters at least.
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