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[Locked] My Review/Reaction of The Patch Notes HW2

OP Tengu5349

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IxJeddeyxI wrote:
Tengu5349 wrote:
Yomado wrote:
IxJeddeyxI wrote:
Lol wow they ruined anders but didn't even touch kinsano.
flame hog drop wasn't touched?what?
flame hogs will beat gauss how is that fair?
Heat of battle how is that fair to any other unsc?
how does one counter heat of battle? oh wait you don't.
Also LOL only a handful of anders players that 'cheese' LOL how is a Kodiak defense cheese. cheese is when you eradicate or inferno a main base and leave the base stripped.
it makes me wonder if shipmaster will still be able to teleport an army into his turrets, and the turrets will still single handedly destroy an army. probably will because that's not cheese at all.
this
i am mad as well, i loved playing anders defensively. the fact that almost no one played anders defensively is complete -Yoink-. where is this cheese -Yoink- coming from
Its coming from kids who got beat by people trolling them with anders. Not because anders was good but because the person using her was just a superior player and now because of that shes getting nerfed yet again.
...
Balance changes aren't solely based on high level play. You only make up like 1% of the community. Get that through your head.
I couldn't disagree more. I think you knocked it out of the park.

Even if high level players made up 1% of the community (that number must be a lot higher) they still provide the most accurate feedback due to the sole reason that THEY UNDERSTAND the game. We talked about this in another thread, there's just no other way to balance the game, data + high level feedback are the driving tools to balance the game out.

I'm pretty sure 1% is a hyperbole, and even if that was the case the 1% should have the priority. Not to please high level players but to balance the game out.

Now, I know people in here are generally mad at Yoda, I know he can be pretty obnoxious, but that his personality. I think he's been pretty reasonable all along and providing proof or at least evidence that suggests Anders is dead.

There are many people in this thread talking all sorts of none sense without anything to back them out other than mentioning how Yoda is being overly dramatic.
There's a definitive difference between high level players, and those who simply think they are high level. I've seen onyx/champion level players say things like "Forge doesn't need eco nerfs, Sentienels are fine, Inferno is fine, jackrabbits are fine." Should I automatically agree with them because of an emblem next to their name? I don't think so. Most of the time they consider it fine because it's what they use to win. It wasn't too long ago I saw a thread the opposite of this one, that demanded the Kodiak sentinels be nerfed, posted by yet another champion ranked player. I believe it was from one of the iZ Here guys. So who should I side with on that one?

Casual players can have an understanding of the game as well. Not ever 'casual' is someone who just picked up the game yesterday. I would consider myself a casual simply because I'm an old man now pushing 30 and I don't have the time to dedicate to the competitive scene. But I still play nearly every day since launch and know the ins and out of just about every leader.

I'd personally value the opinion of someone who has experience under their belt of every leader than that of someone who just mains whatever the FOTM happens to be at the time because it's the easiest way to grind MMR. But maybe that's just my bias, apparently everyone has one according to this thread.
Can you point me out to posts claiming "Forge doesn't need eco nerfs, Sentienels are fine, Inferno is fine, jackrabbits are fine." because I read this forum every day and I swear I've not seen those around. I would understand that if it was just the first week after a patch, I even once thought Locust were balanced. I haven't lost yet any game against Locust Spam, but they've helped me win a lot of games and I see them being spammed more often than any other unit, so something must be wrong, so I changed my mind, but again, the meta was shifting.

The meta can be quite funny, because before Flayerr started spamming Locusts I saw no one doing it, and if you think about it they became more dominant AFTER they were nerfed.

Now regarding the Kodiak change. I was actually in favor of a nerf to the sentinels spawned by Kodiaks (I even made a rant thread about it) however, I don't think that nerfing the Kodiak is particularly a good approach. And I think the issue is that Ander's kodiaks were pretty much the last tool she had to defend herself, take that away and she's at a worst position. She got 2 nerfs and 2 buffs. But the buffs don't exactly pay off for the nerfs in my opinion.

Some people might claim Anders Kodiaks were fine because that's all she has left, and others might claim they're ridiculous. If high level players make these two claims it is easy to figure out who is right. My guess? both are RIGHT! you can adjust the leader in ways that can address both sides of the discussion.

I do agree with you on appreciating people that play every leader. Sadly not everyone does it. I don't do it, I've played Decimus and Atriox mainly, so I provide feedback regarding those two and feedback on other leaders from a defending point of view, which is also important.
That's a lot of forum to root through man. These were like back from the first balance patch announcement, when everyone was Forge JR spamming.

I've seen Locust spam pretty much since launch. It was made pretty apparent in the Blitz beta that their kiting ability and LoS was easy to abuse. It's just become more refined now, there's more established "Best leader/build order" information out there so it's easier for anyone to just pick up on.

In regards to the Kodiak nerf. The way I read it, they still do the same DPS, the shots just have a longer delay between them. So they really weren't 'nerfed' just adjusted. This combined with the reduction of sentinel life span will fix the outlining problem, that they pretty much gave infinite line of sight because they kept spawning endlessly giving vison to your other scattered Kodiaks and going in an endless cycle. Honestly, given enough Kodiaks, you could probably still pull this off post patch.

Personally, I feel like the buffs she's receiving outweigh the nerfs. They are making her more well-rounded. Not just a one trick pony. Yea, there were only a handful of top tier Anders players. But they all did the same thing.

For a game that's supposed to be about adaptability, people sure are opposed to change.
Ahh nothing quite like a balance discussion on the forums, where mediocre players try and tell you that you are wrong, with half the games played and at a far lower level.
Miz izHere wrote:
Ahh nothing quite like a balance discussion on the forums, where mediocre players try and tell you that you are wrong, with half the games played and at a far lower level.
Miz izHere wrote:
Ahh nothing quite like a balance discussion on the forums, where mediocre players try and tell you that you are wrong, with half the games played and at a far lower level.
*plays kinsano* but yea i agree
IxJeddeyxI wrote:
Tengu5349 wrote:
Yomado wrote:
IxJeddeyxI wrote:
Lol wow they ruined anders but didn't even touch kinsano.
flame hog drop wasn't touched?what?
flame hogs will beat gauss how is that fair?
Heat of battle how is that fair to any other unsc?
how does one counter heat of battle? oh wait you don't.
Also LOL only a handful of anders players that 'cheese' LOL how is a Kodiak defense cheese. cheese is when you eradicate or inferno a main base and leave the base stripped.
it makes me wonder if shipmaster will still be able to teleport an army into his turrets, and the turrets will still single handedly destroy an army. probably will because that's not cheese at all.
this
i am mad as well, i loved playing anders defensively. the fact that almost no one played anders defensively is complete -Yoink-. where is this cheese -Yoink- coming from
Its coming from kids who got beat by people trolling them with anders. Not because anders was good but because the person using her was just a superior player and now because of that shes getting nerfed yet again.
...
Balance changes aren't solely based on high level play. You only make up like 1% of the community. Get that through your head.
I couldn't disagree more. I think you knocked it out of the park.

Even if high level players made up 1% of the community (that number must be a lot higher) they still provide the most accurate feedback due to the sole reason that THEY UNDERSTAND the game. We talked about this in another thread, there's just no other way to balance the game, data + high level feedback are the driving tools to balance the game out.

I'm pretty sure 1% is a hyperbole, and even if that was the case the 1% should have the priority. Not to please high level players but to balance the game out.

Now, I know people in here are generally mad at Yoda, I know he can be pretty obnoxious, but that his personality. I think he's been pretty reasonable all along and providing proof or at least evidence that suggests Anders is dead.

There are many people in this thread talking all sorts of none sense without anything to back them out other than mentioning how Yoda is being overly dramatic.
That's a lot of forum to root through man. These were like back from the first balance patch announcement, when everyone was Forge JR spamming.

Understandable. As I said, first week post patch can be highly shaky and unreliable, I wouldn't agree 100% with any claim made during this time window.I've seen Locust spam pretty much since launch. It was made pretty apparent in the Blitz beta that their kiting ability and LoS was easy to abuse. It's just become more refined now, there's more established "Best leader/build order" information out there so it's easier for anyone to just pick up on.

Yeah, Blitz is a different story, specially siphon locusts, but I don't think people in this thread are referring to Blitz.In regards to the Kodiak nerf. The way I read it, they still do the same DPS, the shots just have a longer delay between them. So they really weren't 'nerfed' just adjusted. This combined with the reduction of sentinel life span will fix the outlining problem, that they pretty much gave infinite line of sight because they kept spawning endlessly giving vison to your other scattered Kodiaks and going in an endless cycle. Honestly, given enough Kodiaks, you could probably still pull this off post patch.

When I mention the Kodiak nerfs I mean the Anders skill that spawns sentinels I don't know what is it called, so its confused I know. I know the damage was adjusted to compensate, but this is a nerf against Shrouds. I'm not too conviced about this Kodiak change either way, as you say, the "cheese" will probably still be achievable, so I have no idea what this change is suppose to tackle honestly haha, that's why I see it as a nerf.Personally, I feel like the buffs she's receiving outweigh the nerfs. They are making her more well-rounded. Not just a one trick pony. Yea, there were only a handful of top tier Anders players. But they all did the same thing.

Well, she is a one trick pony because she was forced to, R&D is fine and all, and the Ark Defense change is not a nerf, but an adjustment across all leaders. What I mean is what I mentioned earlier. You can't nerf the sentinels that spawn with kodiaks (jesus what's the name of this leader power lol) without buffing something else, and R&D is just not enough to compensate in my opinion. I don't disagree entirely with you, we'll see post patch how the Anders meta works out. We're all talking all sorts of things without really expecting how much the game is going to change with the XP adjustments. For a game that's supposed to be about adaptability, people sure are opposed to change.

I don't know if you're referring to someone in particular, I'm sure I read a couple of times in this very same thread some people saying things like "I'm against buffing and nerfing" which is exactly what you're talking about. But definetely not me or any other high level player that I know of... Disclaimer: Since people get very sensitive at someone calling himself high level, I have to clarify that for me High level means high onyx and up. If I wasn't I wouldn't be claiming it.
TeamCarter wrote:
I agree with a lot of what you have said in these post. Also i have reached out to you in other post and you have taken the time to responed back to me and offer advice. Thanks, community needs more players like you.

-Thanks that's is very kind, I appreciate it.The one thing I want to bring to light is OP showing evidence comment. He went through a list of top 300 players based on the picture considered that to be all those players main. Then went through that list of Anders and discounted a number of players by either telling us that's a 2nd account or not their main anymore. What is stopping anyone from saying the same thing about any of the other leaders in that list. He doesn't bring that up as a possibility. I think in this it showed bias and I'm hesitant to call that evidence without more information. Not to say he doesn'the have merit in what he is saying I think we need that info from 343 and not from a picture on izhere.

-You bring up a fair point. However, even if that was a possibility it wouldn't bring his argument down, why? because having 3 or 4 more Ander players in a top 300 list wouldn't change anything. Three Anders make up 1% of the top 300, up that by 3 or 4, hell let's increase that by 5 and you would have 8 Anders in the top 300. That's still less than 3%. Having a leader show up less than 3% on the top is worrisome and in fact it does confirm his claim, Anders is just not viable (on 1v1 scenarios).

Anders is an interesting case, because even though she's been nerfed she pops up quite occacionally (2v2 mostly), but I'd think people play her out of preference or they just grew acustomed to her playstyle. Not related to how effective or viable she might or might not be.
That being said I think both you and OP should be considered as a source to reach out to when they are reaching balance. I feel lower level players like myself need to have a voice but need to look at the bigger picture when it comes to calling for a nerf or buff and talking balance. We may not have the skill set to truly know and should look to Higher level players to validate.

I might have been very tough and close minded with Low Level Players, I apologize for that, as you mention we get really passionate (and that's not always a positive thing). I would like to correct my views in regard to Low Level Player Feedback, you're right, you too have a voice, and the devs also have Data, these two in conjuction can prove or disprove any balance claim, irregardless of a player's skill level. It is just my opinion that it would be very likely that High Level Player Feedback would be proven correct more frequently than Low Level Player Feedback.
Answers inside the quote in bold.EDIT: Sorry for the wall of text, I tried formating the quote but it won't let me.
Think my comment "I feel lower level players like myself need to have a voice but need to look at the bigger picture when it comes to calling for a nerf or buff and talking balance. We may not have the skill set to truly know and should look to Higher level players to validate." was poorly written and don't know if it came across how I wanted.

I wasn't commenting on any comment you had on players. In high site i probably should have made that comment outside of my quoting of your post. If you took it that way i apologize. I wasn't taking any issue with how you address players. Just wanted to clarify that with you.

I agree 100% with your opinion " it would be very likely that High Level Player Feedback would be proven correct more frequently than Low Level Player Feedback.". I feel player community should be looking for strategic solution before calling for a nerf/buff and the high levels should be able to validate if a nerf/buff is warranted. I feel the player community is really missing an opportunity to take advantage of these forums and learn solutions and talk strategy. Right now forum feels watered down with nerf/buff threads.

Stay passionate, informative and have fun!
Miz izHere wrote:
Ahh nothing quite like a balance discussion on the forums, where mediocre players try and tell you that you are wrong, with half the games played and at a far lower level.
Ahh not everyone has the available hours to play half the games the (Kinsano) champs do.
Ahhhh if they did, they might have higher ranks.
Ahhh
Ahhh
Nothing...quite...like...Ahhh...
My opinion...AHH...MEANS...AHHH...MORE....AHHH...BECAUSE...IM...ME!!!

ahhhhhhhh
Miz izHere wrote:
Ahh nothing quite like a balance discussion on the forums, where mediocre players try and tell you that you are wrong, with half the games played and at a far lower level.
It's not that they are far lower level or that they have not played as many games problem is they use zero common sense because a lot of the balancing in this game as of right now is a glaring problem but that could possibly change after patch but I do still agree that top 5 percent of players are only opinions that should matter
Miz izHere wrote:
Ahh nothing quite like a balance discussion on the forums, where mediocre players try and tell you that you are wrong, with half the games played and at a far lower level.
Aaaaah yeah but you still get no respect with that

aaaahhh yesssss everyone hate me because I`m so pro and I know what`s good aaaand aaaah yessssss

Sorry but you and all the other 0815 "pro's" are a so small minority :)
Just deal with it or quit with the game...

You better deal with the situation now instead of crying endless "aaaaaah Im wannabe prooooo.... yeeeaaaaa my onpinion... maaaaaa feedback is more worth yesssss"

Stop your crying post-styl and write with facts and good arguments... Then... Maybe one day... People will understand, that you have a different opinion.
By the way, it`s awesome to live with a community where you can write your opinion just like in a democratic republic... even if some people don`t accept the opinion of others and start a 24/7 flamewar
I'm locking this because stat flaming is against the rules. This thread has devolved into nothing more than "I'm (insert rank here) so I don't need to explain anything I just expect people to believe me."

Others are allowed to have opinions, regardless of rank or experience. If you feel they are wrong, why not actually explain it to them without resorting to stat flaming?

There was some good discussion in this thread but a fine line was being walked.
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